# GAF "Warranty Wars"



## RooferJim

Hot off the press.


http://www.gaf.com/Corporate-Information/Press-Room/Press-Releases/Press-Releases.aspx?id=25


----------



## vtroofing

Boom! Glad to have already been a GAF guy before this!


----------



## Tom Runyon

why? this is b-s, and not good for the legitimate contractors. any one can now offer a lifetime warranty on a 30 yr .


----------



## vtroofing

I choose to use GAF/ ELK products exclusively. Weather Watch, Deck Armor, Pro Start, Timberline Prestique, Snow Country and TimberTex. Every house because I like the products, I think they are superior.

I have yet to go Certified or become Elite but I have thought about it a few times but probably not now. The ten years is a great edge.

Not even sure how a better warranty is not good for legit contractors? 

Sure enough CertainTeed will follow through soon, will it then not be good for legit contractors?


----------



## billwestroofing

i wondered what everyones thoughts on this was. I will be very interested in seeing what happens at the IRE this year now. I'm a certified GAF guy and a Select Shingle master with Cert. do a crap ton of 5 star, 70 to 80 % is a 5 star. kind of going to suck if cert. doesnt change as well. I cant point out difference in warr. now. yes i read Warr. already and still a ton of loop hole for GAF though but cant tell people what they think, just liek a goofer says yea its a 30 yr shingles lol NOT.

5 yrs non pro-rated lol.


----------



## Grumpy

They can warrant it for as long as they want, it's still junk IMO.


----------



## RooferJim

Its a gimmick at best. what does the buzz word "lifetime" really mean ?


RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


----------



## buildpinnacle

BS. Capital B, Capital S. All this does is make the crappy cheap roofer look as good as the next guy. Reminds me of a thread awhile back where guys were arguing about the legitimacy of a 30 year labor warranty. Really? Is this what we've become? GAF did the math and realized that the home sales turnover coupled with the severe weather turnover, coupled with the fact that noone keeps their paperwork or even remembers the brand of their shingle after 5 years would keep their liability nearly zero on this announcement. Trust me, if this was bad from them they would not have done it. Don't praise them for this move.....it wasn't in 'our' best interests. I remember when Atlas raised 25 year lams to 30. Everyone followed. Atlas said, OK, our lams are now 35 and it stopped there. Buckle up for the rest of this one. There are a ton of execs crowded around tables at Certainteed, Atlas, IKO, Tamko, and the OC right now.


----------



## Grumpy

CertainTeed did the same thing last year when they upped their 20 year upgraded warranty called 5-star, to 25 years. It was 20 years prior, the same as GAF's. So we're in a game of one-up.

I've been saying for years the same thing pinnacle said above. I was not aware however that Atlas started the warranty war back in 2001-2002 since they are not very common in my area. 

Every warranty has limitations, even my own guarantee has limitations. One limitation that is HUGE for the manufacturers is the lifetime warranty's usually apply to the first owner only. Unless you plan to stay in your house for the rest of your life and unless you are super excellent at record keeping, like maybe an accountant would be, then these long term warrantys are meaningless. 

It's a great thing for anyone selling GAF shingles. I'm curious to see what happens next.


----------



## FCCR

I use GAF because I like GAF. But this warrenty, like all warrenties is a sales scam. They figure long term loss (there is always 1or 2 people that hang onto there paperwork) and then determine that it will cost almost nothing, so big splash announcement "new warrenty".
Not any different from any other product. Water heaters, cars, or carpeting. It's all the same thing. Made to convince people that they are getting something extra with their purchase.
The only thing that really matters with roofing is proper installation. It you do not have that, go ahead and try to collect.


----------



## RooferJim

Get ready for more price increases.GAF will continue to make record profits. Thats whats its all about.


----------



## RemStar

buildpinnacle said:


> BS. Capital B, Capital S. All this does is make the crappy cheap roofer look as good as the next guy. QUOTE]
> 
> No it doesn't, The 50 year non prorated warranty only applies to install done by certified contractors.


----------



## Slyfox

buildpinnacle said:


> BS. Capital B, Capital S. All this does is make the crappy cheap roofer look as good as the next guy. Reminds me of a thread awhile back where guys were arguing about the legitimacy of a 30 year labor warranty. Really? Is this what we've become? GAF did the math and realized that the home sales turnover coupled with the severe weather turnover, coupled with the fact that noone keeps their paperwork or even remembers the brand of their shingle after 5 years would keep their liability nearly zero on this announcement. Trust me, if this was bad from them they would not have done it. Don't praise them for this move.....it wasn't in 'our' best interests. I remember when Atlas raised 25 year lams to 30. Everyone followed. Atlas said, OK, our lams are now 35 and it stopped there. Buckle up for the rest of this one. There are a ton of execs crowded around tables at Certainteed, Atlas, IKO, Tamko, and the OC right now.


You didn't mention the leading cause of roofing failures "even greater than storm damage" which is poor workmanship, the warranty in question doe's not cover that.

The warranty is absolutely a play that relies on people not bothering to or unable to file a claim because of the above mentioned reasons and probably some that have not been mentioned yet.

It's not/wasn't a GAF idea tho, they are just the first asphalt/fiberglas shingle manufacture to do it.
Contractors installing fake slate, tile & metal roofs already experienced this issue.

It works on the same concept as offering factory mail in rebates rather than in store discounts.
Millions of people take the mail in rebate home and leave it in the bag, toss it on the table or night stand, etc. and never mail it in to claim their money.

Same thing with gift cards, millions only get partially claimed/used and many never claimed/used at all.

Millions of dollars in additional profits "for the companies" made for no reason other than the customer being to busy, unorganized, forgetful, etc.


----------



## Mr Roofer

I'm sorry but being a certified installer doesnt mean jack shit. I know far too many 'GAF certified installer' contractors in this town who also happen to be cheap crappy roofers. I also happen to know for a fact at least two of them aren't making profits, they are taking from wages, and this is how they stay around. Then when there is a warranty issue, bam, the name changes. Then they are re-certified, aquire new labour, and the whole thing rolls again. They never seem to get anywhere, but they sure know how to steal jobs from people. But that's ok, because they are 'certified installers'. All this new warranty does is provide them another method to jack the rest of us over.

As I have said elsewhere, it makes me wonder why my new tires didnt come with a lifetime warranty. Or my tv. Or my blender. Or anything else for that matter. 


:thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: GAF :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


----------



## Slyfox

:thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: GAF Haters :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :whistling:​
I agree with the certified contractors programs offered by GAF, Certainteed, Owens Corning, Etc., give a false sense of reliability but the programs do have up sides as well.
1. They force "especially the newest programs" to use complete roofing systems, which makes it a little more difficult to offer cut throat prices.
2. It forces them to have at least the minimal insurance required for their area. They need to have it when they join the program and when they re-new anyhow, which also interferes with them offer cut throat prices.


----------



## RemStar

I think you got it wrong Mr.Roof, A GAF/Elk roof is not a roof being sold at a "cutthroat" price. Gaf products are the most expensive out there for a contractor to buy and provide the best warranty in the industry, So I don't see why any contractor in his right mind would try and sell this type of roofing system at "cutthroat" prices. The guys that are doing all the company name changes are the ones buying the cheep materials and buying up all the discontinuit organic products to sell at "cutthroat" prices.


----------



## qejustin

*GAF Lifetime*

I agree that this is a marketing tool. They are a for profit corp so why not. The warranty is transferable to a second home owner; that is if you remember to transfer it.

As a contractor that installs almost exclusivly GAF products; I look at it as a welcomed sales tool. These warrenties cover manufacturer defects. I dont know much about the other manufacturers becuase we dont install many other brands but we have not had a single customer with a warranty claim against defects with GAF. So 30, 40, lifetime etc.......what does it matter.

Our GAF rep says that we should not see any shingle price increases due to the warrenty. The same fluxuation due to oil prices, demand etc that mirror the other manufacturers but not increases related to the warrenty.....only time will tell.


----------



## Mr Roofer

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Just because the material is expensive doesn't mean the labour has to be.

The result of ever increasing material prices among cutthroat roofers is ever increasing cheap labour. I think I've got it right . At least two GAF _major_ competitors in this area have managed to lower prices significantly in the last year.

Who in roofing is really in their right mind :laughing:, especially cutthroat contractors, arguing cutthroat contractors in their _right_ mind??? At a recent home expo, the only contractor advertising the gaf lifetime warranty big banner and all also happened to be the biggest cutthroat in town!

Selling high end quality products with less than standard installation procedures is far from unheard of. It just means when the company goes to change names they have taken that much more money from people . _This is relatively easy to do because a shingling outfit requires so little overhead to get into._


I suppose it doesn't matter either way, but the bottom line has to be;

_Shingles do NOT last a lifetime (unless it is the lifetime of the shingle :jester, advertising a warranty as such is false advertising_. The problem with the wording is the face value doesn't mean jack, lending credo to anyone who chooses to apply the same philosophy to their own business.



A spade is a spade, a shingle a shingle. Shingles do not last a lifetime. Now I'm supposed to tell homeowners that they do? Cmon man :laughing:!


----------



## qejustin

*agreed*

GAF only announced they were changing to the lifetime warrenty on January 10th. According to our rep, the sales force did not know about it until January 5th and could not release the information until the 10th. It must have been a real recent expo and given the time frame we are talking I am suprised anyone had time to even have a banner promoting the new lifetime shingle that replaced the 30/40 year arch.

I agree that no asphalt shingle will last a lifetime. None of the shingle manufacturers are claiming that their shingles will last a lifetime or the length of their warrenty; whether that be a lifetime or 25 years. Have you read the warrenties on any of the shingles? The warrenties are against manufacturer defects, wind ratings, impact resistance etc. Not a warrenty against age or wear and tear. A 25 year warrenty on a 3 tab means that the manufacturer guarentees that the shingle will not have manufacturer defects for 25 years; with that being said when is the last time you saw a 3-tab over 15 years old that is not at or near the end of its life. If you live in the south, you havent. Is it a marketing ploy yes. Does it give the perception to the customer, who normally doesnt know jack about shingles, that GAF has enough confidence in there product to warrenty it against defects for a lifetime, yes. Any credible roofer will not lead their customer to believe that a lifetime shingle will last a lifetime or a 30 year shingle will last 30 years.....whats the difference.

Second, why is the quality of the roofer, ie "fly by nighter" or legit contractor have to do with this?? All of the shingle manufacturers have good and bad contractors selling their products. Its a level playing field in that regard.

I think GAF, Certainteed and others make high quality products. They are just trying to get an edge on their competition, its business. What are you bashers going to do when your manufacturer of choice follows suit?? Use it as a sales tool of course......


----------



## RooferJim

Mr Roofer I couldnt agree more with your statements. I like GAF shingles and install a lot of them, but know the company is run like an evil empire.
We were in there contractor program but droped out of it for several reasons I will not go into right now. In short, I do not need to be forced to sell warranties my custumers do not really need.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


----------



## Slyfox

qejustin said:


> GAF only announced they were changing to the lifetime warrenty on January 10th. According to our rep, the sales force did not know about it until January 5th and could not release the information until the 10th. It must have been a real recent expo and given the time frame we are talking I am suprised anyone had time to even have a banner promoting the new lifetime shingle that replaced the 30/40 year arch.
> 
> I agree that no asphalt shingle will last a lifetime. None of the shingle manufacturers are claiming that their shingles will last a lifetime or the length of their warrenty; whether that be a lifetime or 25 years. Have you read the warrenties on any of the shingles? The warrenties are against manufacturer defects, wind ratings, impact resistance etc. Not a warrenty against age or wear and tear. A 25 year warrenty on a 3 tab means that the manufacturer guarentees that the shingle will not have manufacturer defects for 25 years; with that being said when is the last time you saw a 3-tab over 15 years old that is not at or near the end of its life. If you live in the south, you havent. Is it a marketing ploy yes. Does it give the perception to the customer, who normally doesnt know jack about shingles, that GAF has enough confidence in there product to warrenty it against defects for a lifetime, yes. Any credible roofer will not lead their customer to believe that a lifetime shingle will last a lifetime or a 30 year shingle will last 30 years.....whats the difference.
> 
> Second, why is the quality of the roofer, ie "fly by nighter" or legit contractor have to do with this?? All of the shingle manufacturers have good and bad contractors selling their products. Its a level playing field in that regard.
> 
> I think GAF, Certainteed and others make high quality products. They are just trying to get an edge on their competition, its business. What are you bashers going to do when your manufacturer of choice follows suit?? Use it as a sales tool of course......


Nice response to the warranty issue.

I'm glad you mentioned "if you live in the south" with the 3-tab shingle comment, in my area you see 3-tabs meet/exceed the expected life span all the time.

The first southern 3-tab roof I worked on was in Winter Park, Florida and while looking at the roof for the first time I made the comment that the existing 3-tabs must be 20 plus years old, the boss said, no, it's 12 years old. It was burnt up really bad with tabs that just melted away.


----------



## Mr Roofer

I can't help but wonder if this warranty is also a generational thing, aimed at an ever increasing population of younger people who simply do not have the time.

For example, the last two (and so far the only two leads this week)homeowners I proposed the lifetime warranty to were both oldtimers, and they found it fairly amusing to say the least, and politely refused a quote on anything gaf. It was only as I tried to explain further that I was cut off mid sentence...'not interested'...

So I sold them Malarkey instead...bigger nailing zone, more sealant strips etc etc.

I have yet to have any experience with a younger crowd on this, but Im sure it would be a lot easier sell. I think the oldtimers know to be able to take a product at face value, specifically as it applies to common sense.

And yes, that was damn fast turnaround time for a banner I thought. I think it was only two or three days before that I had gotten word of the updated warranty. As far as level playing field is concerned, that was why I had stated I suppose it doesn't matter either way .

What I was trying to get at with that line of reasoning is the very first thing a customer see's is 'lifetime warranty'. Without reading the fine print, most anyone knows that shingles arent going to last a lifetime, so I think what happens is the first impression has then become on of misleading. Now I understand it is up to me to make the sale, but if the very first thing that has happened is the homeowner is feeling misled, man, I've got a tought sale. Why do I need to be making things more difficult? If anything this new warranty actually will help me sell other products.

Now if you want to argue about the validity of a lifetime warranty, without all the fine print, the merits of the products should be able to sell themselves. For example if I compare anything GAF vs anything concrete tile, or metal or the above with similair warranties, again most people are probably going to find the gaf stuff amusing.


----------



## qejustin

*True*

I see your point about the first impression of the home owner. I am just honest with the homeowner with respect on what to expect longevity wise from the shingle I am selling. 

In the past, when selling the old lifetime shingles that all of the major manufacturers have carried it was the same. I would explain not to expect it to last a lifetime and why. I dont see how this is any different.

The industry is constantly changing. They changed the 50 year shingle to a lifetime shingle. Now the 30 year shingle to a lifetime shingle. Knowing the reality of how long the asphault shingles will really last makes these warrenties hard to digest. Full circle.....marketing and perception in this case is a far cry from reality. Roll with the punches, either embrase it or buck the trend. I think the former will be better for sales.:whistling:


----------



## Mr Roofer

I think most people in the market for a new roof oer the last year or so have heard something along the line about IKO's recent issues with warranty, or rather prematurely failing shingles. While that is a bad thing for IKO, it is also a bad thing for the industry as a whole. I guess what that boils down to is I think most people are aware that shingles already do not last as long as they are warrantied. Couple this with the fact I think most people who are aware of the IKO story are also aware they got burnt on the fine print, and you may have a problem considering the fine print of the 'lifetime warranty' is what its all about.

Unfortunately there is probably no way to consult with purely objective homeowners in things such as these, as I'm sure it would prove hugely insightful, before unleashing it en masse. 

I think people in this industry (as with many others) are often guilty of not being able to reallistically determine their markets, and how they will react to a new product. What I tend to see are overly optimistic and therefore not entirely reallistic ideas pushed through from the top end, without any of the top end being able to relate to the 'largest and most responsible for driving every other portion of the market'; bottom end.

I could be wrong as I have been many many times before (and it wouldnt surprise me in this crazy ever changing world we live in), but my gut tells me this is a bad thing for GAF, short and long term. More and more I am realizing this new GAF warranty is a great selling tool _for the competitor manufacturers_ as much as it is for GAF themselves_. _I wonder if GAF thought of it that way, surely they must have_._ I have a prospective client this afternoon, we'll see how it goes.


----------



## billwestroofing

Anyone else see that Tamko didn't change there warranty to life time note sure that is a good move on there part humm. But will now have a roofing cont. Program


----------



## Slyfox

Tamko & Certainteed are/were racing to be the last ones to move and according to "here say" they both will be doing something different than the others.


----------



## DFWRoofing

Manufacturers just made it a little harder to differentiate the good and bad contractors. 

You really need to take the time to explain to people what a warranty really means.


----------



## billwestroofing

Tamko is keeping heritage a 30 yr shingle sorry thought everyone knew not sure if you have seen letter from Tamko


----------



## Slyfox

Tamko left the 30 and 50 yr symbol but they still changed their warranty.
New Warranty.

Certainteed made their change official, theirs are all life time now.


----------



## billwestroofing

Yes I got both warr but just sucks Tamko went with 30 yes instead of lifetime yes I know hasa15 yr non pro I do like have to see what the new contractor program is.


----------



## RooferJim

furthur proof of how meaningless and ridiculous these warranty games are. This is exactly why we droped out of the GAF master eliet program. I am out to sell my company not theres.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


----------

