# pricing to replace a flat roof?



## KAAL Construction Inc

61 square flat roof,single story,2 a/c units a few drains and 400ft curb flashing.It has pitch and crushed gravel on it now. What would be a very rough guess to T/O and go back with a torch down?


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## Captain

KAAL Construction Inc said:


> 61 square flat roof,single story,2 a/c units a few drains and 400ft curb flashing.It has pitch and crushed gravel on it now. What would be a very rough guess to T/O and go back with a torch down?



Same as any project, 
Estimate labor hours and payroll liabilities to complete job (example: 10 days, 5 guys @$150hr avg)
Material cost 
Profit and overhead
Cost for slag removal
Trash removal cost
Permits 
Contingency 

Add it up and that's what you charge, if you try to figure out a price per square on here you'll probably lose your ass. It also depends on the skill of the foremen and gang, it doesn't sound like you do a lot of it so go high.


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## BrandRoof

Should be just under $1,000,000.00. Any more than that and it's highway robbery!


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## Grumpy

Figure out a complete materials list. Figure out any rented items you may need like chutes and dumpsters, etc... Figure out how long the job will take to complete, 1 day two days, three days. http://hangupthebelt.com/2011/how-much-should-i-charge-for/ 

Everyone prices a little different. Some people will tell you what they charge and perhaps they are wrong. Truth be told the only people who know what you should charge are you and your accountant. 

I'd be happy to help you out, but truth be told the information you provided is incomplete. Are the AC units residential units or are the curbs? What is the substrate? How is the existing roof fastened, is the pitch mopped to the substrate? Is there any insulation there now? How much insulation are you putting back? Will the insulation be mechanically attached, or adhered? If adhered, adhered with hot or with adhesive? What specification modified bitumen? 10 year, 12 year, 15 year or 20 year? http://reliableamerican.us/services/low-slope-roofing.html#ModBit Any gutter, gravel stop, coping? Any parapet walls, term bar, counter flashing, pitch pans? How many pipes? Will materials be roof loaded or craned? What is acces like for the garbage? Will you be able to place a dumpster next to the building or will you need a guy or two on the ground with wheelbarrows (touch twice)?


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## 1985gt

A 61 sq roof with a few drains and 400' of curb flashing is going to be expensive. then double that for dealing with cutting around all of that. 400' of curb flashing is like 20 4x6 skylights, on a 61sq roof thats crowded. 

My guess 60,000.00 to 155,000...


If you really want a price, a complete take off would be needed.


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## Grumpy

When he said 400' of curb flashing, that got me confused. I wonder if he was referring to walls? Personally I figure my curbs by the unit, not by the linear foot. That's just how I do it. Each curb is 45 minutes to flash, but I add in 15 minutes to each curb for cutting around. So each curb I figure adds a man hour to every job. I do the same with each and every penetration. 

Having said that, we once did a restaurant roof. About 60-80 squares counting walls. I recall one section of roof had soooo much chit on it, in a 10 hour day we only managed to lay up 200-300 sq ft area of roof. I was literally army crawling on my stomach the whole day underneath duct flashing curbs the whole day. You should have seen how torn up my back was from scraping all the sharp edges on the ducts.


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## KAAL Construction Inc

Thanks Guys,
You are all correct about 1 thing. Im really not a commercial flat roof contractor. I do 90% residential work. This particular job was awarded to me in conjunction with a 60sq shingle job at the same project. It was an insurance claim I managed to get approved for the owner.I was trying to see how accurate the claim amount was for this portion of the work. I appreciate the input!


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## Grumpy

If insurance is paying, it's not enough.


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## KAAL Construction Inc

Lol, Thanks Grumpy. They do pretty well with the residential end of things and if not I am pretty successful with supplement approvals.Depends on insurance and Adjusters.If I can get the Adjuster to leave his ego at home then things seem to go better. No real complaints so far except measures at times but I almost always physically measure and back them up with my own eagleview also.I outsource alot of my reports also to a Gentleman by the name of Scott HarperHe is also on this forum..His packaged reports are spot on and it leaves me more time to sell and less time sitting behind the computer. The expense can almost always be buried in the price and when you do insurance work and can provide the adjuster an exact report the approval is much simpler.Ofcourse this would only interest the contractors who deal with insurance work. God knows I wouldn't if their was enough direct HO sales in my town!


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## Grumpy

Insurance pays well? Yeah people constantly tell me that. Since when? I've seen xactimate pricing and I'll stay home for what they offer on shingle roofing. By no means am I the highest price guy in my area either, and I have never seen nor heard of an insurance restoration company getting what I get for my roofs. Maybe I am wrong. I could be wrong. But nobody has ever been able to show me, so in my mind I must be right.

At the end of the day after paying the crew and the supplier, I don't want $500 for gross profit. That won't cut it, and if there is one leak that profit can be all gone. Some jobs I have seen insurance offer seriously wouldn't even cover the cost of materials and the adjuster wanted to argue with me, told me to shop at home depot.


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## AnyMonkey

Hi Kaal,

61sq in my area would run about $7.50 per square foot for what you are describing for 1 layer perma board and 2 ply SBS.... insulation would be extra and would depend on the r-value trying to be achieved. I am assuming that the roof perimeter is a low wall or cant detail. Like the others said it is impossible to give prices without seeing the job but if you were anywhere between $7.00 and $10.00 per sf then you should do ok

Ken


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## KAAL Construction Inc

Thanks guys but job is complete! I didn't do to bad on it,I only lost $2,700.00 lol.
Oh well live and learn. Im a residential roofing company.This just happened to get thrown in my lap.


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## Grumpy

KAAL Construction Inc said:


> I didn't do to bad on it,I only lost $2,700.00


Please see previous comment:



Grumpy said:


> If insurance is paying, it's not enough.


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## 1985gt

Losing anything on a job is bad, unless it leads to a more profitable job where you can make it up, but then you never really lost anything.


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## Grumpy

A loss is a loss is a loss in my opinion. "making it up in volume" is a bad philosophy. I had one builder who would ask for a discount then tell me he would make it up on the next job, never ever did he ever let me make it up on the next job. I was always behind. While we never lost, we really didn't make either. Plus I know lots of people who purposely will do repair work for a loss hoping to get the big replacement down the road, and I know from experience it doesn't always work that way.


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## 1985gt

I was referring more along the lines of your working on a bigger job and say another area your not working on has leak you know it will take roughly 2 man hours and $100 in material. This is a large facility that you have never worked at before. Plenty of bad roofs. Spending that $300 or so to fix that leak while your there at no charge goes along way with getting additional business. While the $300 or so is technically a loss, you can almost guarantee that it will be made up on additional repairs or future reroofs.

losing $2,700 on a job that was pushed on you especially on a house where there will be no further work. With that being said I wouldn't do $2,700 dollars worth of work for free for even our best customers. Then again our best customers know we are in business to make money, as they are too, they also know what we are worth.


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## Grumpy

Personally never would I giver away a free repair on the hopes of getting a job later. IF I was already there sure maybe, like tossing in a free drain, or giving a discount on substrate repair. I do that kind of thing all the time. However, I will indicate it on an invoice so they know what they got for free. 

I once did a 250 square roof replacement. The facility manager said if you can fix the leak at our down town show room, I'll give you this job. I presented him with a proposal. The proposal said what we were going to do to repair the roof. It also had a price of about $1k. Under the price it had a line, "If awarded the project at XYZ Location, the cost of this repair will be deducted from XYZ." 

How many times have unscrupulous customers dangled the carrot, "If you give me a good price on this one, I have 4 more." Bull Crap! in most cases. I respond, "Well this one is full price because I have to try you out too. But I'll knock 5% (or 10 or whatever) off the next one." 

There have been times I went out to do an estimate, did a temp repair with caulk because it was ez and I had already got up on the roof, told the customer no charge call me if it leaks again and we'll do something more permanent... and never heard from them again. I know my caulk wasn't magic, and should have started leaking again a year or less later. That's why I said it's never a good thing to take a loss on a job. It's a slippery slope to start doing so. 

I get what you are saying, but what you are suggesting is more a exception to the rule on a case by case basis, not the rule its self. I'm too broke to give anything away for free even if it means it'll come back t come later. Worrying about the later is part of the reason I am broke now. Pay me now, I say. My vendors won't wait till later, they say.


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## AnyMonkey

I have to agree with grumpy, if i had a nickle for every time a customer promised me something for a favour and never got the work later id be a rich man. In the same way as grumpy stated i will do a service call and deduct that from the price of a re-roof after ive done the larger job but i will send the invoice for the smaller repair no matter what. All of that being said there are times i do little freebies here and there just to help someone out but every now and then those can come back and haunt you too. I once let a customer talk me in to re-caulking his gutter joints at the front of his building. I did not want to because it was 3 stories up and quite dangerous. It was also wet and i knew i wouldnt get a good seal. it was a total freebie on a flat roofing job i did for him and yet he phoned me 6 months later on a warranty call because the gutters were leaking again. Sometimes its just not worth it.


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## theallmightyking

When he said 400' of curb flashing, that got me confused. I wonder if he was referring to walls? Personally I figure my curbs by the unit, not by the linear foot. That's just how I do it. Each curb is 45 minutes to flash, but I add in 15 minutes to each curb for cutting around. So each curb I figure adds a man hour to every job. I do the same with each and every penetration. 

Hey Grumpy!

I am following you since your couple of posts. you seems quite experienced and genuine..

Regards,
theallmightyking
Roof Repair San Jose


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## AnyMonkey

It is interesting to see how other people do their estimates..... me i dont look at things in such an exact way..... i look at a job by the size of my typical crew 10-12 men and what they typically achieve in a day. so for a 4ply and glass tearoff (after vacuuming) my 12 man crew will tear off 40 square on a warehouse with little to no penetrations and put down a board and base ply SBS..... on a cut up apartment that might fall to 20sq and if its an irma re-roof that might fall to ten or less even... This crew size costs me $3500.00 per day so if its a 110 sq warehouse my labour is $10500.00 plus cap sheet which is about $45.00 per square plus stripping..... I just hired an estimator though who micro prices everything but we seem to end up close to the same numbers.

Ken


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## KAAL Construction Inc

AnyMonkey,
My comment was more directed to myself and a dig on myself. I can promise you that I didn't go into the job wanting to lose $2,700.00.
This particular project was a 3 part commercial project. Flat roof,60 sq shingle roof and a 6000 sq ft interior drop ceiling replacement. In order to seal the project I had 
to commit to the entire contract. Although flat roofing is not my forte' I am not scared to take on something for experience. I don't really see it as losing $2,700.00.I see it more as gaining $2,700.00 in experience(that helps lol)! Not 1 person on this forum can say they NEVER lost money on a job or they are full of shit. I will never be the contractor to claim I am the best in the nation but I am very very good at what I do and I live a very very lucrative life doing it.Their is always room for improvement and room to learn as far as I see it.In the end it was a portion of a 85k project that didn't do so well,big deal move on right? Now I know more of what I didn't know before!


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## Grumpy

Did you know going into the project you were going to take a $2700 hit, or was the hit because of your lack of flat experience? Did you work for the prices set by the insurance company, or did you bid the job yourself? 

We've all lost money at one time or another. Now I charge enough that I can take a major hit on a job and still at least break even. Cumulatively I lost nearly a quarter mil my first 5 years in business. Top that.


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## AnyMonkey

not sure why you directed this at me but im glad that roofing gives you a good life... it does me also.



KAAL Construction Inc said:


> AnyMonkey,
> My comment was more directed to myself and a dig on myself. I can promise you that I didn't go into the job wanting to lose $2,700.00.
> This particular project was a 3 part commercial project. Flat roof,60 sq shingle roof and a 6000 sq ft interior drop ceiling replacement. In order to seal the project I had
> to commit to the entire contract. Although flat roofing is not my forte' I am not scared to take on something for experience. I don't really see it as losing $2,700.00.I see it more as gaining $2,700.00 in experience(that helps lol)! Not 1 person on this forum can say they NEVER lost money on a job or they are full of shit. I will never be the contractor to claim I am the best in the nation but I am very very good at what I do and I live a very very lucrative life doing it.Their is always room for improvement and room to learn as far as I see it.In the end it was a portion of a 85k project that didn't do so well,big deal move on right? Now I know more of what I didn't know before!


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## Grumpy

AnyMonkey said:


> not sure why you directed this at me but im glad that roofing gives you a good life... it does me also.


 NOT me.


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## KAAL Construction Inc

Grumpy,
No I did not plan on losing the money. It was definitely due to my lack of flat experience. I was told by "flat" roofers after the fact that it was priced right and managed wrong,again my own fault.


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## 1985gt

For the record I do not go around giving out free repairs, if the customer asks it's a definite no unless they signed another contract for something else.

Example A:

Last month we had some very high winds, a customer of ours call up around 4 PM, about the time I leave for the day asked if I could meet his maintenance guy out at this building. The maintenance guy claimed the roof was blowing off. I let him know there was little I could do right now as 90% of the guys went home and with 60+ MPH winds I had no way of safely getting any weight on to the roof, but I would go take a look at it.

A good 80 square section was billowing up but the RTS was still holding in the walls. Took some pictures and told the maintenance guy there was little I could do and I would talk to his boss tonight. 

Long story short it turn out to be a very nice time and material job, no quotes/estimate just go get the job done. While doing the job on a complete different section there were a few holes. The crew was wondering what to do and personally I was a bit upset they had to ask me what to do. I said patch them, you guys are there. While technically not a free repair it did save them money by not having an additional trip charge.


All of our pricing goes through our spread sheet, doesnt matter if its 10 sq or 1,000 square. 2 guys or 5. Well actually its two spread sheets one for quantitys and the other for pricing. 

Walls are done by the LF each height is different 1-2-3-4 ect.
Curbs are done by size, small med large xtra large.


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## Grumpy

I get what youa re saying, if you're getting paid by the hour it's definetly not a free repair. 

As for spreadsheets, willing to share? I'll show you mine if you show me yours. See who's is bigger


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## 1985gt

Grumpy said:


> I get what youa re saying, if you're getting paid by the hour it's definetly not a free repair.
> 
> As for spreadsheets, willing to share? I'll show you mine if you show me yours. See who's is bigger



I don't know if I could share them but I can tell you that the estimate part of the spread sheet is around 550 lines and 15 columns. The quantity one is around 70 lines and 23 columns. And that's just the EPDM one.


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## Grumpy

My spreadsheet is broken down into roof types, and has a main page for tracking all materials and prices and labor rates. The "all pricing" page is 2,000 lines I think off the top of my head. 

All roof type pricing spreadsheets have two columns (except the pvc/tpo spreadsheet which has 3 columns). One column for labor price per piece and one column for material price per piece. Each roof type then has something like 50 rows of the most common materials or features of that particular roof type, and then another maybe 5 rows for entering in the miscellaneous, and another 5 rows for stuff like dumpsters, staging, roof loading, etc... 

Basically to price a job, all one needs to do is make a complete materials list. I try to take the guess work out of figuring labor by micro engineering each piece. So when you enter in a pipe boot for example the spreadsheet knows how much money to add for each boot, or each curb. Sometimes the labor needs to be adjusted upwards on cut up or small jobs however.


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## AnyMonkey

the spreadsheet i made for another company in town here when i worked there used something in excel called scenarios that allowed me to build all of the systems that i used and store them so i could call them up with a drop down in a combobox. All of my sub categories like drains and vents had drop downs as well so i didnt have to clutter up the entire sheet with every material possible. I had a database type spreadsheet that had all of my materials and pricing in it and the contents would get copy pasted automaticaly in to a worksheet in my estimate when i opened the estimate.... there was a fair bit of visual basic code behind the scenes but i got most of the from mrexcel.com forum. Luckily when i moved over to my current company the owner here was buildng an online customer database and he basically gave me a programmer for 6 months to take the best ideas of that spreadsheet and put it online in php... I was able to make some serious upgrades in php that were not possible for me in excel... now i have something that we really love but the total cost was about 40k

btw a formula in excel called vlookup was my best friend when i was building my spreadsheet as it enabled me to create drop downs for materials that autofilled pricing and formulas that were on different spreadsheets.


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## 1985gt

Grumpy sounds pretty similar to ours.


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