# Likely cause of this repair



## Michael Thomas

What is the likely cause of this repair?

Thanks.


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## FerrisHI

The seem might of been coming up so the repair is just helping it where the product has failed...Whats anybody else got???


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## Interloc

fasteners comin up


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## Michael Thomas

Seems reasonable, thanks.


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## buildpinnacle

Fishmouths


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## seoforu

fasteners are definitely coming up.

Alabama roofing Companies|Roofing Waterproofing|Columbus Roofing and repairs|Licensed roofing contractors


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## Ed the Roofer

Both explanations are good and accurate guesses as to the patches Michael.

But, do you also notice the insulation board Bridging continuouisly parrallel and to the left of the seam in question? It does not look like it was fastened down at all on that edge.

Ed


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## PTROOFING

seoforu said:


> fasteners are definitely coming up.
> 
> Alabama roofing Companies|Roofing Waterproofing|Columbus Roofing and repairs|Licensed roofing contractors


+1 fastener back-out


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## strangebrew

*Fasteners backing out*

The most common repair I do on these roofs.


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## [email protected]

Should be no fasteners in the seams of an APP torch applied roof. Roofer may have overtorched the seams which then required patches to cover the exposed reinforcement. Or to cover small fishmouths, but simply torch repairing the fishmouths would be easier.


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## 1985gt

I belive they were talking about deck fasteners poping up through, not fasteners that hold membrane down. You mean to tell me you have never mecanically attached a torched down roof before?


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## Interloc

1985gt said:


> You mean to tell me you have never mecanically attached a torched down roof before?


  me too..


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## Ed the Roofer

There used to be a modified bitumen product on the market called, "InsulRoof" which was about a 60" wide sheet of modified with a fiberglass backing adhered to the underside of the membrane. 

The seams were intended and specified to be mechanically fastened and then the modified would be torched down on the seams only.

Another company bought them out about 10-12 years ago I believe.


[email protected] I was talking about the insulation fasteners, not any fasteners located on these photos of the modified bitumen seams.

P.S.

[email protected] Are you a member of the Roof Consultants Institute? edit: (Yes I see you are. I looked you up)

Just curious??? Since you are an RRC through the RCI, what training and testing is required to achieve the status of RRC.

Ed


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## Grumpy

It's interesting, I contacted the RCI a couple days ago. I said somethign to the affect of what engineering degree do you see most of your consultants have in their resume? The answer was basically that no engineering degree nor license is necessary.

In theory I agree, however most of the roof consultants in my area are also engineering firms. I wanted to start an roof consultant firm with my father when he retired. He was an IL licensed engineer. I came to find out after he retired that he let his license lapse one year we were having money problems when I was a kid and never got it back because it wasn't necessary for him to have in his line of work. Doh! There goes that dream  



1985, mechanical fasteners in the seams on an mod bit on 6/12 pitch or greater. Otherwise only in base sheet or insulation boards.


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## 1985gt

Grumpy said:


> 1985, mechanical fasteners in the seams on an mod bit on 6/12 pitch or greater. Otherwise only in base sheet or insulation boards.


 
I know, I was just goofing around.


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## [email protected]

Ed the roofer,
I agree that the insulation appears to be inadequately fastened. The rolls appear to be standard width and in-seam fastening would not be recommended. 

The RRC certification process is fairly comprehensive. It involves knowledge of the various systems on the market, their composition and application methods, code requirements, inspection requirements, test methods etc. RCI also evaluated the applicant’s education and experience. There is no requirement that the applicant be and engineer or architect. In fact the RCI group was originally developed because of the lack of roof specific knowledge in these fields. I attached the RRC application for reference of full requirements.

http://www.rci-online.org/downloads/promo-materials/RCI-RRC-application.pdf

RCI along with NRCA have been the recognized leaders in the advancement of roofing knowledge. Of course there is also the test that must be passed and continuing education requirements. Various states, government agencies and corporations are starting to require inclusion of a RRC in there roof design/inspection processes.

Most of the RRC’s I have come across have extensive field experience. I have noticed that some of the younger RRC’s have less field experience and more book experience. 
Involvement in the RCI organization does help keep me up to date with industry issues; failures, advancements, code changes, etc. RCI has also provided a representative voice for the industry in roof related code and insurance (FM) standards development. 
 I feel that it is a benefit to be involved. Is it a requirement to be a RCI member…no. But if roofing is your business then why not utilize what this organization has to offer and support the advancement of roofing standards and knowledge. 
PS. The RCI in my username is not the RCI organization.


1985gt - I indicated that I have never fastened in the seams.


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## Grumpy

Bill here is a question about being a roof consultant...

What is the confilict of itnerest, if any, if you have two businesses one a roofing contracting company and the other a roofing consulting firm. Personally I'd love to ease my way into the realm of roof consulting one day. However I do not ever think I could to give up the contracting neither.


Ed you and I should start a consulting firm. Between the two of us, we know more than most of the architects and engineers I've had to work with whom have put together improper and incomplete specifications.


In regards to the engineering requirement... I was once hired to do a roof inspection. The property was in litigation. I was to inspect and determine 2 things, if the workmanship was to code and to manufacturer specification. I even negotiated a sweet deal that expert testimony would cost additional. However I was promptly fired before I got a chance to do the inspection when the other lawyer hired an engineering firm to complete their inspection. Again, a majority of the consulting firms whos specifications have crossed my desk, have all been engineers or architects of some kind. So much, in fact, that I thought there were an industry requirement or some form of law requiring such a degree.

I'm still interested in knowing what engineering degrees most consultants obtain. Civil or Structural? Structural would seem more pertinant, however the last roofer turned consultant I spoke with went civil. I did not ask why.


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## [email protected]

Grumpy,
The largest group of roof system designers remains the roofing contractor. They consult and make recommendation to the bulk of building owners/managers without any involvement of an engineer/architect or other independent consultant. However, they do this as a contractor offering recommendations. 
The real conflict of interest as a consultant is when you fail to disclose to an owner/manager that you are anything other than a consultant. And if you are a paid consultant you should not be in any way involved in bidding the work you specify. By nature offering both services is a conflict. You know when there is a potential conflict. And to be an independent consultant is to not be tied to any potential conflict.
If you are really going to be a roof consultant, and I have no doubt that you would do a much better job at it then most engineers and architects, then you really should divorce yourself from the contracting business. This would also dramatically reduce your insurance rate and government required paperwork. 
RCI offers the following for Code of Ethics:
http://www.rci-online.org/ethics.html
As to which engineering specialty to get into…either one works fine. Personally, I would prefer to have another company do my structural testing in order to limit my liability.
Sorry you missed out on the testimony money. Courts and lawyers prefer to have consultants or engineers on the stand vs. contractors. Trust me when I say that after doing a lot of depositions and testimony you will be looking forward to getting outside and onto the roof again.


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## Ed the Roofer

Grumpy said:


> Ed you and I should start a consulting firm. Between the two of us, we know more than most of the architects and engineers I've had to work with whom have put together improper and incomplete specifications.


I agree Grumpy. We should get together in the near future to sit down and discuss a business plan and logistics and time frame and monetary considerations.

Or, LOL, you could just get the Haag Engineering Roof Consultant tag.

Ed


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## Grumpy

[email protected] said:


> Grumpy,
> The largest group of roof system designers remains the roofing contractor. They consult and make recommendation to the bulk of building owners/managers without any involvement of an engineer/architect or other independent consultant. However, they do this as a contractor offering recommendations.


 No argument there, 99% of the work we do I am writing or re-writing the specification. 



[email protected] said:


> The real conflict of interest as a consultant is when you fail to disclose to an owner/manager that you are anything other than a consultant. And if you are a paid consultant you should not be in any way involved in bidding the work you specify. By nature offering both services is a conflict. You know when there is a potential conflict. And to be an independent consultant is to not be tied to any potential conflict.
> 
> If you are really going to be a roof consultant, and I have no doubt that you would do a much better job at it then most engineers and architects, then you really should divorce yourself from the contracting business. This would also dramatically reduce your insurance rate and government required paperwork.
> RCI offers the following for Code of Ethics:
> http://www.rci-online.org/ethics.html
> As to which engineering specialty to get into…either one works fine. Personally, I would prefer to have another company do my structural testing in order to limit my liability.
> Sorry you missed out on the testimony money. Courts and lawyers prefer to have consultants or engineers on the stand vs. contractors. Trust me when I say that after doing a lot of depositions and testimony you will be looking forward to getting outside and onto the roof again.


 I agree if I were to get paid for the consulting, I could see how there would easily be a breech of ethics. Sorta... I get paid for inspections now on very few jobs, but there are times when a free esimtate just isn't worth my time. In some cases they hire me, in other cases not... but I guess the difference is they know going in that there can be no breech of ethics I am a roofing contractor and I want money 

If I were ever to operate as a consultant, I would do it under a seperate corporation. Ya know keeping one's license is an important thing... if that dream job coms around once a year where you can net $10k or $20k on one sale, I would forever be kicking myself for giving up the license. 



Ed isn't HAAG primarily a storm chaser thing? I looked into it briefly many years ago and got that impression and you know I feel about the chasers. LOL


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## Grumpy

[email protected] said:


> RCI offers the following for Code of Ethics:
> http://www.rci-online.org/ethics.html


 I did read this last week as a matter of fact. Question... 

"Members and registrants of RCI should also recognize that their profession and their practice may be governed by various laws and regulations regarding professional registration and the conduct of trade. It is their responsibility, therefore, to be familiar with those laws and regulations and to conduct themselves accordingly."

Does RCI aid their members in knowing what laws are necessary in any given municipality? As I said I "thought" being an engineer was a requirement. I may or may not be wrong. I may not need be a member of RCI, but does the great (lol) state of Illinois think different?


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## [email protected]

Grumpy,
RCI does not survey and track individual municipality requirements. Nor do they track each municipalities code requirements above and beyond ICC. As for Illinios, I don't know what they require but I do know that there are about 20 RRC's in the state and most are not engineers or architects. I have performed work across the country and actually in six other countries as well and have only run into a few goverment specification projects that required a signoff of a E or A. Some other govermental agencies may require a E or A for their own projects but not as a requirement to perform work for others (private corporations). Check with your local building inspector. 

The RCI statement is typical organizational boiler plate Cover Your A#@ language.


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