# Hot question...



## Billy Luttrell

Got a small A.C. curb to roof coming up...on a hospital. Roof is BUR. No kettle with in 200 yards of the place, gotta put buckets of hot in an enclosed metal trash cans and wheel them to the access elevator....up 6 stories, get into another elevator go to the roof....out a roof door....200 yards across the roof, down a ladder to a lower level....50 yards across up another level to the area where the A.C. is...Is this even possible with out my hot turning into un-moppable (new word!) gum? Any other suggestions? 20 year old 5 ply BUR with gravel. 

They said no way can I set the kettle near the hospital even to get a few buckets up and pull it away..


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## jjshaggy

Is it just flashing it in? Could you just use modified?


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## Pie in the Sky

I will also assume they wont allow a torch. 

your best bet is Mod Bit in Cement... Ive seen this stuff last a long time. Asphalt is called hot for a reason, its not an adhesive, its an activator.

Cold Adhesive may work too but Im not sure how it ties in.


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## Grumpy

I'd personally do it with a torch, we always repair BUR with APP.

If they won't allow a torch, then I can't comment since I have only once done SBS cold, and looked like a chimney sweep. Made a decision to skip it, no need. That doesn't help you out though, only to say I have one opinion on the matter, torch or torch.

Pie, If you do modbit in cement, hmmm.... I have seen Firestone APP 160 set in rubberized roof cement. However it didn't stick at all. I can only suspect because of the plastic film on the back side of the APP which normally gets burnt off. A few days after the APP was set in the cement, I had the opportunity to peel it up and the plastic (I will call release film for lack of a better name) was adhered to the cement, but I could peel the mod bit membrane right off the plastic. IN other words when I peeled up the mod bit, what remained was a patch of roof cement and the release plastic. I just scraped all the chit off as best I could and torched it with a patch larger than the previous so I had good adhesion.


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## Captain

Grumpy said:


> I'd personally do it with a torch, we always repair BUR with APP.
> 
> If they won't allow a torch, then I can't comment since I have only once done SBS cold, and looked like a chimney sweep. Made a decision to skip it, no need. That doesn't help you out though, only to say I have one opinion on the matter, torch or torch.
> 
> Pie, If you do modbit in cement, hmmm.... I have seen Firestone APP 160 set in rubberized roof cement. However it didn't stick at all. I can only suspect because of the plastic film on the back side of the APP which normally gets burnt off. A few days after the APP was set in the cement, I had the opportunity to peel it up and the plastic (I will call release film for lack of a better name) was adhered to the cement, but I could peel the mod bit membrane right off the plastic. IN other words when I peeled up the mod bit, what remained was a patch of roof cement and the release plastic. I just scraped all the chit off as best I could and torched it with a patch larger than the previous so I had good adhesion.



Self adhered Modified goes down like Ice & Water and lasts like APP/SBS. We only use that on APP/SBS coating jobs bc you can coat it the same day and it will stick to anything.. I highly recommend getting the spray primer from Mule Hide and cleaning the powder dirt off before doing it but that stuff is legit. It's pretty cheap too. 

We did a glue down job on a hospital a few years ago where the 1st day security evacuated the entire building because the fumes made everyone sick.. It ended up going to night shift so that may be an option for you guys, or just have smoke scrubbers on the kettle and use that Tru lo product.. Taking it through an elevator in a trash can is nuts, it won't even be hot when you get it up there, what's the point? Plus the labor would be ridiculous, worst case use a beam or smith hoist or even a crane so it gets up fast, but to pay a guy to go up and down is nuts..


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## Grumpy

Self adhering modified is cheap?

I've installed a few hundred squares of self adhering modified bitumen and cheap is not how I would describe it. I never thought of using it for a repair/tie in. I suppose you could adhere to a smooth bur or smooth modified bitumen roof. I don't know how long it would last though. Kinda like using an EPDM cover tape or Eternabond on a modified or smooth bur. I've done it but an leary it'll peel off in a few years. 

Just had a chance to inspect a flat roof, the masons rebuilt the parapet walls and flashed in with EPDM. They tied into the existing roof using EPDM self adhering flashing membrane. They did prime the existing roof, which was a aluminum coated modified bitumen. however I was able to peel off the flashing membrane effortlessly with my index finger.


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## Pie in the Sky

[QUOTE
Pie, If you do modbit in cement, hmmm.... I have seen Firestone APP 160 set in rubberized roof cement. However it didn't stick at all. I can only suspect because of the plastic film on the back side of the APP which normally gets burnt off. A few days after the APP was set in the cement, I had the opportunity to peel it up and the plastic (I will call release film for lack of a better name) was adhered to the cement, but I could peel the mod bit membrane right off the plastic. IN other words when I peeled up the mod bit, what remained was a patch of roof cement and the release plastic. I just scraped all the chit off as best I could and torched it with a patch larger than the previous so I had good adhesion.[/QUOTE]

HAHAHAH 
I ran into something similar on a Firestone job with SBS where the Flashings were being hung with Cement. They all fell off. They came back and said the contractor had to use some special 2 components stuff they use. It worked. SBS membranes should be able to be set in Flashing cement. I’ve seen it done with Siplast with success but the seams needed to be heat welded. No torch allowed so they used a Leyster....
YOu would think APP would work too, I guess it depends on the solvents in it. or like you said maybe it was just the release film.

BTW another time in another thread I’ll Talk about cold applied SBS. I personally believe it to be the best Asphalt based system out there. I was on a 1.5 year project 3mil$ + with Cold applied. I am a believer. :yes: you can’t keep the asphalt hot enough for SBS.


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## Billy Luttrell

I figured most people would say Torch it, but my concern is it being gravel topped BUR, and spudding back for the tie in. I have only ever torched to smooth BUR. 

S.A. and Cold Applied I will not even try....chit is dead level.

I would be much more comfortable hot mopping but there is no way I will get anything but semi-soft gummy asphalt on the roof by the time I do all the carrying of the chit.


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## jjshaggy

I always dope and mini 
the tie in into a built up roof.


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## 1985gt

Spud the gravel off, *Prime* the existing roofing, then flash with SBS either S/A or in cold app. Honestly with the access you described I would go Self adhered and be done with it. It sucks lugging 5 gal buckets all over the damn place. Forget putting your hot in trash cans and hauling it up there, I would say it would more then likely make a huge mess but the 2nd elevator trip would be a breeze since it would all be damn near solid when you got up there.

Edit: Just read you wont use S/a or cold, even if the roof is dead level the cold applied will stick like no other, I wouldn't worry about it honestly, if you go S/A Maybe dope and rage the lap on the deck, make it a bigger lap 10" + and rag it, sweep the gravel back over it and collect your check. I don't really see a problem using any of these methods.


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## Grumpy

Billy Luttrell said:


> I figured most people would say Torch it, but my concern is it being gravel topped BUR, and spudding back for the tie in. I have only ever torched to smooth BUR.
> 
> S.A. and Cold Applied I will not even try....chit is dead level.
> 
> I would be much more comfortable hot mopping but there is no way I will get anything but semi-soft gummy asphalt on the roof by the time I do all the carrying of the chit.


50% of the time spudding moves the leak to the edge of where you stopped spudding


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## Grumpy

Have the kettle craned onto the roof?


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## Hutch

App torch alln the way in this situation... You will just need to spud to rock and old asphalt off until you get it smooth. (about 12" out from the base of the curb) torch in your flashings, or heat weld if the torch is banned. I always 5 course my tie-ins to bur anytime I use a torch. (cement, rag, cement, rag, cement)... Works like a charm everytime


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## 1985gt

Grumpy said:


> 50% of the time spudding moves the leak to the edge of where you stopped spudding



Sure when you put Dan the destroyer behind the spud bar. Spudding is like making love, you got to know when to be rough and know when to be soft and gentle. :whistling:


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## Pie in the Sky

1985gt said:


> Sure when you put Dan the destroyer behind the spud bar. Spudding is like making love, you got to know when to be rough and know when to be soft and gentle. :whistling:


HAHAHAHAHA :laughing:


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## Grumpy

I'll put it to you like this. Winter time spudding is the only time I can guarantee there won't be a leak. The rest of the year, I can almost guarantee there will be a fractional tear which will just move the leak over to the edge of the patch. I hate repairing BUR so damned much. tear that crap off, what a stupid idea putting rock on a roof. 10 hours removing rock for a 15 minute patch. That an ballasted.... god who ever came up with those two ideas is a fuggin idiot!

It irks me just thinking about all the repairs I have done in the past shoveling rock or spudding. Just dog gone stupid!


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## Pie in the Sky

Grump - I once performed a Troxler (non-destructive nuclear capacitance testing - finds moisture) investigation on a Ballasted EPDM warehouse. You cannot shoot IR over river rock. They cleared a 5x5 grid of 3’ round spots in the rock so I could test it. it was a 2500+ Square roof…. Around 10,000 spots they cleared? I would think the amount of money the consultant paid for the weeks of testing and analysys would have more than covered the allowance for wet insulation.


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## Grumpy

So you understand then where I am coming from about my disgust for rock. On the flip side it adds alot to labor on any given project which adds to profit as well.


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## 1985gt

Grumpy said:


> I'll put it to you like this. Winter time spudding is the only time I can guarantee there won't be a leak. The rest of the year, I can almost guarantee there will be a fractional tear which will just move the leak over to the edge of the patch. I hate repairing BUR so damned much. tear that crap off, what a stupid idea putting rock on a roof. 10 hours removing rock for a 15 minute patch. That an ballasted.... god who ever came up with those two ideas is a fuggin idiot!
> 
> It irks me just thinking about all the repairs I have done in the past shoveling rock or spudding. Just dog gone stupid!


Honestly we rarely have problems from spudding. Sure when you get the 30 year old roofs or like the nice 100+ deg days we have been having, but for the most part I'd rather spud all day then scoop ballast. IMHO A bur roof is one of the best roofing systems out there. 

Ballasted on the other hand I agree 100% I hate those roofs.

Oh and if you ever have a big repair on a bur/gravel look in to a rotary spudder we did a recover and figured two in to the price, damn nice machines and they don't throw rock everywhere. 

Oh and for ballast you can get a "rocker" they can be a life saver on ballasted tear offs just got to watch and make sure the paddles are set up properly. I wish we had a vacuum though.


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## Billy Luttrell

Gonna torch it.

1985... I have never used cold or SA on flat stuff because it has been ingrained into my skull my entire teenage and adult life that those systems HAVE to have positive water drainage. 

I absolutely love SA. I have a small 13 sq job coming up on monday that me and a helper are doing ourselves. I am also installing tapered ISO on it before we get to roofing. Not a big fan of glue down, also even though its a great product I am not a big fan of installing derbi-gum with the permastic then welding the seems. Just feels messy and If I am going to do messy, I would rather it be 475 degree messy :thumbup:


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## Grumpy

We contract with vacuum companies for ballast removal. I figure it's basically the same cost as paying the guys to move it, but the vac is alot faster and cleaner.


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## 1985gt

Billy Luttrell said:


> Gonna torch it.
> 
> 1985... I have never used cold or SA on flat stuff because it has been ingrained into my skull my entire teenage and adult life that those systems HAVE to have positive water drainage.



I'll get you a screw driver to uningrain that from your brain  I have 100% confidence in cold app on dead level, i've installed it and watched it over the years work. I would agree with you on SA though. 



Grumpy said:


> We contract with vacuum companies for ballast removal. I figure it's basically the same cost as paying the guys to move it, but the vac is alot faster and cleaner.



Only ones in town here belong to our two biggest competitors. One year we will have one, sadly I don't think we will ever be totally rid of the ballast roof systems. :thumbdown:


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## Grumpy

Have you checked www.thebluebook.com and see if there are any vendors serving your area? In my blue book there is a whole section of vac companies, and I can call a few of my local distributors and get more names still. There aren't as many vac companies as roofing companies, but enough to be competitive.


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## 1985gt

I haven't. I just tried but the web site was giving me an error. I'll check again later. Thanks for the info!


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## Grumpy

5 companies show up in Nebraska




Dytech Services, LLC Cedar Rapids IA (319) 363-9300 



Hydro Klean Environmental Svcs. Des Moines IA (515) 283-0500 



McKinnis Roofing & Sheet Metal Lincoln NE (402) 466-3155
(877) 734-8832 



Roofing Technology, Inc. Davenport IA (563) 322-0771 



Toyne Services, Inc. Cedar Rapids IA (319) 390-1077 

http://www.thebluebook.com/2011/ind...576&srch=keyword&keyword=Vacuum Service Roofs


I'm not sure where in Nebraska you are located, but you may also check neighboring states if you're near to any of the borders.


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## 1985gt

Only one listed in Nebraska is a competitor and I don't think the Vac is located at their Lincoln site. Des Moines is around 4 hours away and i'm not paying port to port for that 

I know of two others in town owned by competitors one of whom has offered his services (who wouldn't) to us, I have yet to follow though and get pricing from him. I'll probably do that next time I see him at a bid.


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## Grumpy

They are listed as serving Nebraska, worth at least calling before you decide to make a $100k investment if you ask me. They may be regional. I know of of the companies that services my area is in St Louis, but will travel to Chicago, that's like a 5 hour drive one way. They gave me fixed bid pricing. 

My competitors are only competitors when we are pricing the same job. The rest of the time we are colleagues


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## 1985gt

There are just some companies I would and the boss would rather not hand a single dime to. 

100K pocket change :whistling: Just kidding of course, I do some checking around when the need arises.


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