# TPO Rates



## FLRoofPro

Nice to see a trade forum like this. I look forward to sharing experiences with other roofing pros.

Question on TPO rates...What are the manhour rates most of you use for application? Done plenty of premanufactured PVC bids, but many specs going TPO these days. Was curious how most of you figure your labor for welds/adheasion/fasteners.


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## Grumpy

Wow this is a topic I hope to see some answers because I feel like my production rates are way off.

Obviously it depends on the size of the job. Give me a wide open new construction or lay over and we can fly. Wide open being the key word. Give me a tear off and we are really limited to the ammount we can safely tear off in one day. On a tear off we are about the same speed as mod bit. Again limited to the tear off production variable.


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## SinglePlyGuy

Thats a tough one to answer....so many variables.

I think TPO is a tad slower than PVC and faster than everything else.

It all comes down to your crews welding proficiency because everything else is a wash with single plies.

Our rates are extremely skewed as all we do is heat weld systems and 90% of my guys are really good welders.


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## Grumpy

I once read that hand welding is something like 10' a minute. I know me personally I am much much slower. Obviously a dog (robotic seam welder) is much faster than 10' a minute but I don't use one on most of my jobs since they're usually too small and/or too cut up. 

When I price a job I usually figure my labor for the open field as .75 man hours per square for mechanically attached, based on a job 50 squares or less. INsulation and tear off would obviously be extra. That would include just the membrane. I'll then usually add additional time for each detail such as curbs, drains, pipes, scupper etc. 

On some of the new construction jobs I've bid (but never won) when it was all said and done I think we are figuring 50 squares a day including insulation. My production manager said when he was doing it full time his 7 man union crew was laying up about 70 squares a day complete on average. 

I heard some bull kaka one time, that I just can not beleive, that some 20 man crew once laid up 400+ squares in a day complete. I suppose it could be possible maybe if you were doing it every day and it was peel and stick and wide wide open before any curbs or pipes were put in your way. Never in my wildest dreams could I dare think we are capable of knocking out 20 squares per man per day.


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## FLRoofPro

Good info in that last post Grumpy, thanks! I have bid several commercial jobs and gotten blown out by 20-30%. Some of them under my estimated cost. When I hear you mentioning the 70sq a day figure, it makes more sense if that is true. 

I am with you on welding. I have yet to see a good welder blaze out a GOOD weld at 10' per minute. When I have seen guys move that fast, it usually results in a cold weld or a few patches.

I have typically been at 1mh per sq for mechanically attached. Going to .75 might help me tighten up.

How many squares of fully adhered can your crew layout in a day?


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## Grumpy

All my FA jobs are small, like 15 squares or less so there's no real way to give you an accurate number. Also most of my jobs are tear offs so again we are limited to the number of squares we can tear off in one day. I'm not really comfortable opening up more than 20 squares in a day personally, I want to make sure it's perfectly tight by the end of the day so don't want to bite off more than we can chew.

Having said that, I bid a job that was about 200 squares plus or minus. I figured we were going to get a crew of day laborers in at 6 am to start cutting and ripping and then my guys would show up around 8 pm to start laying up while the T.O crew ripped ahead of them. My goal was to install 50 squares per day complete. This was FA EPDM, BTW. One other company said they were going to knock it out in 4 days with a 20 man crew. The company that actually got hired took about 2 weeks to do the job. 

It's all speculative though since we didn't get the job. As I said all my numbers are for small jobs. BTW that .75 mh would be variable based on the size of the job. Also I am sure alot of guys here like SinglePlyGuy will laugh at our production rates.


I wish when we first started the single ply I had someone sharing numbers like I have because least I would have had a starting off point. We were way over priced on the single ply because we were guessing at production rates and guessing on the high side to be safe. We lost ALOT of jobs. And we are still losing, but we're getting better.


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## rwolfe

Starting to like this forum. Look, when your slamming down a ma tpo system, lets say over a cover board (recover), wide open roof. You shouldn't have more than 5-6 guys (foreman, 2 mechanics, 2 laborers). BTW, my foreman work. i have to say that because I know some of your's don't. 

With 5 guys, you should be able to run out about 60-80 squares a day. For new construction that crew should be getting 100-150. Having said that, If you are on the perimeter, or in a congested area, completed squares slows down because of those conditions. If you have more than 6 men, you probably need to crank up to 12 men and split crews. More than 6 guys on a crew is too many For M/A. 

The robot will weld 100' in 10 minutes. I like to start at the beginning of my end laps and "turn the corner" with the robot and complete the endlap and side seam 100%. This way there is not hand welding at the end laps at the end of the day. Having said that, the better your guys get running a screw gun, the better your production will get. When they get good at the screw gun, you go get them their very own milwaukee. It's the fastest out there. You can also take off the extension from the tall boys and use that gun. But then parts end up missing. Better to get some screw guns only. Two good screw guns and one good plate layer should be completing the attachments @ 12" o.c. and 6" o.c. in 4 1/2 minutes or 9 minutes respecively. Notice that the screw guns at 6" o.c. are about the same speed as the robot. Most assemblies are attached at 6" o.c. down here in South Florida.

I love talking about plastic production.

One of you guys oughta come up with a roof scenario, and everyone put a cost only number on it with back up using the same labor rates. I've done this before internally at my previous company (who was nation wide). It's interesting to see what people come up with. 

rw


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## Grumpy

I tried doing this on another forum RW, but nobody really took it seriously then. I was trying to gauge where I stood and why I was losing so many jobs. I know how I was incredibly high but nobody would help me at the time. I'm learning through this thread because I have several small jobs under my belt but am clueless on the big jobs, which I'd like to get too. Big, small, medium, I don't care about the size so long as it's profitable. But bidding a big job with small job production rates just doesn't work. 

Since modified is king here in my area, I don't know a single person doing single ply other than myself. That's not to say I am the only one, it's just usually the large companies who are doing it. The small guys are all modified. It's hard to call up a colleague and ask him what to charge or production rates when as far as they are concerned, I'm a pioneer and know much much more about it than they do.


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## roofpro350

As everyone's know it depends on penetrations, perimeter detail, replacement or overlay and size of crew. What I have found is that a 5 man crew with a small parapet wall and minimal penetrations and 10' wide sheet, we get about 30 sq. average. We are working on a large project now that 1 day we can get 90 sq. and the next 40 sq. This is for a mechanically attached system. It's about 5 sq. per man per day. TPO and PVC are relatively the same. EPDM is much more labor intensive, taped seam or glued. It's difficult to give an est. with all things considered. Hope that helps you out? You will here where other crews get many more sq. but once you figure, loading the job. night seals, flashings and metal work the average I mentioned above will be more accurate.


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## rwolfe

Grump. Post a scenario. Or if your bidding a job, I'll help you out. You'll either agree with my numbers or you won't. I love this stuff.


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## Grumpy

The last bid I put out is for a 65x80'+walls with many many penetrations (pipes mostly). We can run that scenario or wait for something larger.


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## rwolfe

How about this.

Existing roof: 250' x 250' Elevation is 18'
- BUR with gravel over 3/4" perlite mopped to mechanically attached 1.5" polyiso over type b metal deck.
- the walls are block and are 36" high with top of wall equalling 8". The existing base flashings are terminated at 18" and have an old rusty galvanized surface mounted counterflashing. Old rusty coping cap.
- 5 each 6'x6' curbs. Height of curb = 10"
- 5 VTR's
- 40 pitch pans
- 5 rusty goosenecks near the curbs.

Bid a recover spec with 60 mil TPO mechanically attached over 1" iso 
New base flashings with surface mountat walls. New coping cap. New 8" gutter with 6 downspouts. 15 year warranty.

We should probably only estimate cost and use the same dollars per man hour.
If you want to do this, we'll agree on a day to have it finished.
If not thats fine too.


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## Grumpy

If you're repalcing the coping why not cover the entire wall and wrap the roof up and over the wall and the cover again with coping?

I'll shoot ya a number when I get more time perhaps this afternoon or tomorrow. I'm goign to give you what my price would be for the customer, then what my expected material costs would be and estimated labor.


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## Grumpy

You said there is coping but also gutters. I'd need quantities to give an accurate price. You have a aerial/satellite photo? 

What's a VTR?


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## Ed the Roofer

Grumpy said:


> *What's a VTR?*


*V*ent *T*hrough *R*oof.

Ed


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## rwolfe

No. I made it up. Just so we could look at each others info. Having said that, figure easy access all around the building. Not congested and within 30 minutes from your shop. The owner is easy to deal with. 

I'll post my numbers on sunday. may have to work on it a bit on saturday.

rw


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## Grumpy

LOL we just call them "vents" seems a little more logical. 

Still need quantities on gutter and coping.


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## rwolfe

You must not bid much new construction.

The construction term is VTR or Vent Thru Roof.

VTR's are round and come in various circumfrences (probably misspelled). 

Vents are typically metal and can mean any number of things and come in any number of sizes.


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## Grumpy

I don't do ANY new construction. No profit + lots of head aches = work I pass on.


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## apehangeralfy

$208,275

Any one else... I figure it's on the high side and would get under bid but maybe I'm wrong...


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## RooferJim

I think your low and would certainly under bid me


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## Ga Foam Guy

I am a Foam roofer with very little experenice with fasteners. can anyone tell me how you figure the manhours for installing 8" up to 20" fasteners and plates.


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## FerrisHI

$295,000 is my bid...Anybody else???


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## Iowazillest

*Our production*

I'm with a 12 man crew out of Iowa, we do new construction for the most part, same building everytime, 2200 squares, knock it out in 1100-1200 man hours like clockwork, 41 skylights, 13 rooftop AC units, 35 sq parapet wall flashing, 4 small "mushroom vents", 11 pipes, a cone shaped heat stack vent, 7 scuppers, 6 drains, 250' term bar. We're not union though. Used to do it in just under 1100 but got switched up to "plates n screws" instead of pre-assebled, we run a BAK autobot, not too shabby, but have been maintenenced many times. I personally am head detail and only one other guy touches a heat gun. T-patches on all intersections which is overkill for the .45 mil spec. Last job I literally did 75% of T-patches and 51/58 units/skylights.
--AT


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## NSMROOFING13

Like everyone else has said there are so many variables to the equation but i can give you a good example of what we have done before. New construction Paducah, KY middle of winter Job. We were installing 2 Layers of 2" Iso board over steel deck. (8 Screws & Plates per Board, Fully Adhered 0.60 TPO. We purchased 2 Accutrac insulation screw guns, & 2 30" Wide Better Spreader Rollers to spread Bonding for us. Warehouse Roof was 405 x 340. We had 10 guys working and all have been together for awhile. Our main commercial roofing foreman is as good as it gets (IMO). There were 6 Curbs and maybe 5 Pipes. So pretty much this was a dream job to have. You cannot get more wide open than this. Now the temp was around 20 Degrees constantly but we averaged on a good day 90 to 120 Squares / Day. Of course our Accutrac guns kept people from spreading insulation, then Plates, Then guys coming behind screwing. It was all built in to 2 guys with those guns and everyone else laying board. On average we had about 90 to 110 Man Hours a Day. Okay now the other. Tampa FL job. Roof was 180' x 350'. 2 layer tear off of built up roof. 4" to 5" thick everywhere. we had 2 roof cutters going, and 6 guys tearing off. We usually would tear off a 20 to 28 foot wide section by 180' Long each day. We would tear off roof by lunch, replace decking for 2 hours minimum, then lay out 1" iso board and install a 0.45 mechanically attached roof system. This was with 8 Guys working. We average about 72 to 80 man hours a day.


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