# Starting up hellp needed!



## Toiture Mc Cray (Jul 27, 2011)

Hi Guys My name is Jf Mc Cray and Im in the process of getting My liscence for professional Roofing ( asphalt shingles)

I Do Have a few questions and here they come..!
note that Im from Montreal, Quebec , Canada and I just optained My compagnon certificate from the CCQ 

1) Where can i find the documentation to help me pass the tests? I heard there was 3 different test I think it is management/security/job specific
Liscense here are RBQ numbers

2) when I optain My liscence do I need to register My self a company name somewhere with the governement?

3) Been toying around with the idea of buying David deschaines Guides.. How would you rate those?

4) the best way to start up would be 
A) buy a truck/dumper tools and basicly invest around 30,000$ into it
B) Simply get job and give it to subs

5) If answer is B above... how do you go about finding reliable subs? Do i just try to ship those job to existing company That I know of and that are reliable?


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Why buy a dump if you can rent for a few weeks, or months, until you can afford a dump? Around here for me anyways, using a dump truck or dump trailer has zero cost benefit and takes more time. I strictly use dumpsters, though alot of guys in the area do use dump trucks. i think personally, they don't understand what it really costs them to operate the dumptruck. Though dump fees are much lower in other parts of the country, so my answer is not one size fits all. 

Making a decision of subs or employees is something you have to make. How to find relaible ones? It takes 10 bad subs to find one good sub, and that good sub will eventually turn bad, I promise. 

Finding reliable employees is equally as hard and both carry risks and rewards. The risk and rewards are usually seperate and opposite.


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## Toiture Mc Cray (Jul 27, 2011)

I was refering to dump trailer tho, I guess thats what u meant, here dumping is rather expensive from what I heard, 
Beside that grumpy, whats ur thought on david deschaines material, are their any other options


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## howeneil1 (Jul 30, 2011)

*David Deschaine*

Hi Toiture,

As a local business marketer I can tell you that David Deschaines products are right up to the minute with online marketing practices.

I have bought his courses and had immediate success getting ranked for the websites I built using his simple system and tools.

Getting customers is all about being featured everywhere on the search engines and that is exactly what happened for me.

There is a lot of value in his courses that you would have to go out and pay someone else to create, or hire someone like me to do all the work for you for a hefty price! 

Highly recommend David Deschaine


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Dave posts or used to post here in this forum. I agree 100% with what he is trying to do, and can't argue with a guy who is telling my competitors to charge more $$$ 

I do have some disagreement with some of his methods, some of his methods wouldn't fit my style nor way of doing things. His specialty is definetly on sales and marketing, not on production nor installation techniques. However, if you are just starting out, for $99 it's probably a good investment. Even if you find one trick, or one form, or save an hour of time in some way, it's worth it.

I have not purchased his system myself, so I am only speaking from what I have read on his website and advertisements. I think I already have much of what his system offers, but it took me years to put together. Even if it's worthless, it's only $99. In the course of your business you are going to blow alot more than that on stupid purchases LOL, I know I did!


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## Toiture Mc Cray (Jul 27, 2011)

And If you would have to do it again would you own a company or just work as a roofer making around 33$/hr 8months a year and then be off for 4 months ( winter )


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## daviddeschaine (May 26, 2010)

*Hey Guys Hows Is It Going*

Thanks Grumpy - *My Ears were burning 

You Guys Are Great!
* 
Hey, I'm going to be giving away some great _*FREE*_ stuff in the future to help all the roofers in the United States, and Canada with marketing their roofing business online.  

Good Luck With Sales In The Second Half Of The Year!

*David Deschaine*




Grumpy said:


> Dave posts or used to post here in this forum. I agree 100% with what he is trying to do, and can't argue with a guy who is telling my competitors to charge more $$$
> 
> I do have some disagreement with some of his methods, some of his methods wouldn't fit my style nor way of doing things. His specialty is definetly on sales and marketing, not on production nor installation techniques. However, if you are just starting out, for $99 it's probably a good investment. Even if you find one trick, or one form, or save an hour of time in some way, it's worth it.
> 
> I have not purchased his system myself, so I am only speaking from what I have read on his website and advertisements. I think I already have much of what his system offers, but it took me years to put together. Even if it's worthless, it's only $99. In the course of your business you are going to blow alot more than that on stupid purchases LOL, I know I did!


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Toiture Mc Cray said:


> And If you would have to do it again would you own a company or just work as a roofer making around 33$/hr 8months a year and then be off for 4 months ( winter )


If I had to do it all over again, there are alot of things I would do different. I'm not sure roofign would have anything to do with it. However no matter what industry I find myself in another universe, I am a chronic entrapaneur so I would no matter what trying to be the big dog. I love sales and customer service and roofing is simply an avenue for me to express those talents. Sometimes I think I could make more $$$ working for someone else, and sometimes I know I can make more working for someone else, but at the same time I know there is a ceiling working for some one else and no ceiling working for ones' self. The only limit is the limit we impose on ourselves. 

Personally if I could go back in time I would have joined the Marines for 4-8 years, then got a degree in engineering and become the John M. Browning of the 21st century.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> Personally if I could go back in time I would have joined the Marines for 4-8 years, then got a degree in engineering and become the John M. Browning of the 21st century.


Hear hear, except John M. Browning didnt go into the military, he learned from working with his father, But if you want to put a comp trigger on my Springfield 1911 that would be great. :thumbup:

Back on topic, I agree with grumpy, working for your self you get to set the bar where you want it, how big or small you want to be and what not. If you work for someone else well, they set it for you. Working for your self gives one a sense of accomplishment (hopefully), right now is a hard time to start up and I believe customer satisfaction is a very big part of it. Sure low price my land you some jobs but if you work suffers because of it, and it will. You will stop getting the calls to even come look at a project. A good customer relationship will go alot further, they will tell their friends who tell their friends and so forth.


The questions in the OP

1) Where can i find the documentation to help me pass the tests? I heard there was 3 different test I think it is management/security/job specific
Liscense here are RBQ numbers

Unknown but surely the internet has something to offer.

2) when I optain My liscence do I need to register My self a company name somewhere with the governement?

Taxes?

3) Been toying around with the idea of buying David deschaines Guides.. How would you rate those?

Ive never personally looked at these either, but it is somewhat intriguing.

4) the best way to start up would be 
A) buy a truck/dumper tools and basicly invest around 30,000$ into it
B) Simply get job and give it to subs

A.)Its cheaper for us to run our own trucks (dump & Lift) then to use a dumpster. Plus the mobility of them is better, some customers dont want a dumpster in thier driveway/property. With that being said we are looking to buy a roll off truck in the near future since we do mostly commercial and 97% flat/low slope so we need a higher capacity on our trucks and a roll off is an obvious choice. Sit down and write the numbers down. Call a roll off company and get pricing and such. Price a used dumptruck, or dump trailer. Or look for a Lift/Dump truck.

B.) This will never make you happy. 

5) If answer is B above... how do you go about finding reliable subs? Do i just try to ship those job to existing company That I know of and that are reliable?

5.) Like grumpy said you never will.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

No, GT, you are right Browning didn't join the military, but the discipline would have been good for me and the one regret I have in my life is never having enlisted. It's what I said i wanted to do in my youth, then in my teen years I was all fugged up, and spent my 20's getting my act together. I really should have enlisted, and kudos to all those who did! 

GT, I am working primarily with AR's and bolt actions right now, but I am trying to find a cheap, used, beat up, rusted, broken 1911 so I can begin tinkering. While I am sure I could do it based on my experience with other trigger assemblies, I'd be learning on the fly and that's not something I want to do with a customer's gun. If I can find a wreck of a 1911 and repair it into a gem, I will then begin working on the 1911's. For now I have to stick to what I know because I will never take on a job I am not 100% confident I can deliver. 



To add to what 1985 was saying about roofing, low price will get you some jobs but will only carry you for a few years. In my large metro area, you can operate on low price and do chit work and keep getting work if you have a large enoguh marketing expense. Having said that, that's in the residential market. The commercial market is a whole different ball game. It's a smaller market when dealing with roof consultants and property managers, you can only burn someone once or twice before they are out to kill you.


As for the dump truck, like my original thread said dumpster rates and disposal fees vary. Alot of guys say it's cheaper but if anyone knows me, they know I have crunched the numbers every way till Tuesday and I just can find a way to make it cheaper especially ESPECIALLY when factoring in the labor of the driver. I would pay the same per ton dropping it out as I would pay per ton using a dumpster company. Do like 1985 and put pencil to paper. It may end up being cheaper. Personally it's not an expense I would want to incur at start up when thre are alternatives that can float me for a few months, even if I did want to buy a dump truck or trailer. Just remember when putting pencil to paper your time is money and if you will spend 2 hours a day unloading trash that's 2 hours you should be compensated for. 


As for subs, I did NOT say you never will. I said they are incredibly difficult to find... and you will pay more than most subs are charging for a quality sub. I use both subs and employees and sometimes we work together on big jobs. If you care about quality you will more than likely go the route of employees, however that is not assured of quality. I got really lucky with my sub crew who is my former boss whom I worked for before I started my business. Some of his guys have been working for him since before I worked for him. Some of his guys have been workign for his company since before he bought the company. These guys are TOP NOTCH. I don't use them on ever job but the jobs I do, I never have to worry. Certainly the exception to the rule. Most subs will go over rotten decking, throw good material in the trash, and just otherwise not give a chit about what they are doing, but then again the average sub doesn't get paid enough to care.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

1911's are a fairly simple gun. You should have no problem with one.


Back on track.

For the dumpster or truck you will obviously have more start up with buying the truck, INS. The repairs on these vehicles are expensive also. in our state you have an annual DOT inspection and if your truck is over a certain GVW you will need a CDL, and that brings random drug testing and yearly physicals. All something to consider.

Sorry Grumpy I should have added to the sub topic. It would be very hard to have a long relationship with a sub. Its generally will end up in problems one way or another. We do have a sub for our shingle work but he generally does 1-6 jobs a year for us never more because thats not our market. he does good work and now needs very little attention. We go over the project with him before hand and might drop in while he's working and a final inspection. So far the relationship is good.

I think what we are trying to say is, it takes a heck of alot of planing and paper pushing before jumping in to this. It also takes many many hours out of your day and pretty much plan on working 7 days a week. My boss generally works from 6-6 or later 6-7 days a week. Starting your own business is big commitment and it will take every bit of what you have for a long time. Oh and get use to eating hotdogs and roman noddles!


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

These last few weeks I have been putting in long hours. It seems like there is never enough time in the day and I have had to make it a point to glue my but to my desk chair just to catch up on paper work. last night I did my last proposal at 9pm from my dining room table after putting my 1 year old to bed. I told my wife before we got married that I was already married to my job. She accepts it.

But it doesn't always have to be like that, and it shouldn't be like that. I know this is of my own doing. There was a time a few years ago where I only worked 6 hour days and only ran 1 estimte on saturday, usually neat a gun gun range or gun store giving me an excuse to be in the area  but I digress. Running a business kaka rolls uphill, to spite what you may have heard it does not roll down hill. The lower you are on the totem pole the more verbal abuse you may take in this trade but when you are the boss every failure is YOUR failure, success is shared company wide.

If your employee fails you, that's your ailure. You either hired the wrong employee or you didn't properly train or didn't properly supervise, no matter how you cut it; it's your failure not the employees. The employees look to YOU for their livlihood. Yes they are providing a service but I hate to say you are not just feeding your family anymore but are also now feeding 4-5 or more other families. In theory it shouldn't be this way but at least in the very beginning it certainly WILL be.

Also be prepared to be paid last. You're going to have to pay your suppliers, your installers, your insurance, your overhead before you can pay yourself. ALOT of dollars will change hands on a daily basis, thousands of dollars infact and sometimes it seems like you'd be lucky to hold onto a few pennies. Also if the company gets stiffed who's pocket do you think that comes out of? Everyone thinks the boss makes all the money, and it is possible to make alot of money in roofing, but the boss also takes enormous risk. 

I could go on and on and on, but read this: http://hangupthebelt.com/2011/a-man-of-many-failures/ ask yourself if you were in this position, what would you do? while you are there read some of my other blog posts which will hopefully eliminate some of the problems you will inevitebly have. 



GT I have a browning Hi-Power knock off, which is very similair to the 1911, but I am hesitant to mess around with it too much since it is a knock off and though similiar, not all standard parts fit and I don't want to screw myself over having to buy a $2,000 mill machine to make a custom part... which I am capable of doing having been a tool and die maker apprentice before getting into roofing. Just don't have the $2k for the machine, or a place to put it... I think if I had a place to put it I would already own it


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> These last few weeks I have been putting in long hours. It seems like there is never enough time in the day and I have had to make it a point to glue my but to my desk chair just to catch up on paper work. last night I did my last proposal at 9pm from my dining room table after putting my 1 year old to bed. I told my wife before we got married that I was already married to my job. She accepts it.



I can feel you there, I generally put in 9+ at the office now we are working on expanding into a different and hopefully $ making area so I work 3-5 hours every few days at night, and will be for a very long time. It sucks doing this and having a family but hopefully in the end there will be something to pass down to them, well there will be even if its knowledge but you hope its more.
I dont think my wife knew what she was getting in to but then again she learns somewhat quickly.



Grumpy said:


> But it doesn't always have to be like that, and it shouldn't be like that. I know this is of my own doing. There was a time a few years ago where I only worked 6 hour days and only ran 1 estimte on saturday, usually neat a gun gun range or gun store giving me an excuse to be in the area  but I digress. Running a business kaka rolls uphill, to spite what you may have heard it does not roll down hill. The lower you are on the totem pole the more verbal abuse you may take in this trade but when you are the boss every failure is YOUR failure, success is shared company wide.
> 
> If your employee fails you, that's your ailure. You either hired the wrong employee or you didn't properly train or didn't properly supervise, no matter how you cut it; it's your failure not the employees. The employees look to YOU for their livlihood. Yes they are providing a service but I hate to say you are not just feeding your family anymore but are also now feeding 4-5 or more other families. In theory it shouldn't be this way but at least in the very beginning it certainly WILL be.



Could not have said it better my self.




Grumpy said:


> Also be prepared to be paid last. You're going to have to pay your suppliers, your installers, your insurance, your overhead before you can pay yourself. ALOT of dollars will change hands on a daily basis, thousands of dollars infact and sometimes it seems like you'd be lucky to hold onto a few pennies. Also if the company gets stiffed who's pocket do you think that comes out of? Everyone thinks the boss makes all the money, and it is possible to make alot of money in roofing, but the boss also takes enormous risk.


Granted im still an employee but with my situation I know exactly what its like to have to take money out of your own account to make payroll for the week. luckily those times are gone and hopefully stay that way.


I could go on and on and on, but read this: http://hangupthebelt.com/2011/a-man-of-many-failures/ ask yourself if you were in this position, what would you do? while you are there read some of my other blog posts which will hopefully eliminate some of the problems you will inevitebly have. 





Grumpy said:


> GT I have a browning Hi-Power knock off, which is very similair to the 1911, but I am hesitant to mess around with it too much since it is a knock off and though similiar, not all standard parts fit and I don't want to screw myself over having to buy a $2,000 mill machine to make a custom part... which I am capable of doing having been a tool and die maker apprentice before getting into roofing. Just don't have the $2k for the machine, or a place to put it... I think if I had a place to put it I would already own it



I always like the Hi-powers my self. I just like the 1911 more and I had a chance to buy a brand new one that wasnt 1k so I took it, my wife was over joyed :laughing: I like the German Lugers I have an off brand in 22cal, even being an off brand it has alot of value so it sits in the gun safe. Infact its been in there so long I forgot who the hell it was made by, I guess Ill have to go dig it out. :laughing:


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

GT, I am not a 45ACP man myself. I don't get all the hype. If I shoot youw ith a 380, you're gonna feel it, I don't need a 45.... THOUGH I fell in love with the FNP 45 tactical with the extended threaded barrel <drools>. Right now I have my eye on the Springfield XDM 5.25. OMG! OMG! I said numerous times if the XDM had a 5" barrel I would buy it. Mys ister in law boguht one on my suggestion, my book keeper also bought an XDM on my suggestion. AWESOME gun, but seeing as I want to use it for 3gun/multi gun competition 4.5" is kinda short. 5.25! 5.25! I'm in love! If I only had $800 laying around. 

I have a 1.5 gallon bucket inmy room I call it my gunme, short for gun money, when it is full I take it to the bank and buy a gun. However last year my wife took it to the bank without telling me and spent it on a vacation of all things. grrrr... And the part that really gets me is before I take it to the bank i sort through it to find old rare coins and inevitabely there are ALWAYS some. But it'll be another year before this bucket is full so looking for other gunme to buy this 5.25 and start my 3 gun career! I suck BTW, but I am the best I know (which aint saying much!).


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Yeah but my 45 hollow points will put a big damn hole in you, 380, 38, 9mm will make a good size hole but its been proven 9mm do not have the stoping power, hench why our troops have asked for 45 back. Ive always wanted one of these in 357 sig, talk about drool! Oh Momma me likey!Yeah about your gunme, better start putting it up or locking it up. I know if I had one either the wife or kids would be in it all the time. Just wait till your little one is older and finds a love for money, boom no spare change in sight! I could talk about this all day  I have a couple of boxes of 45 left over and a few boxes of 22's, I think I might have my weekend planed now. I know a good spot out in the woods and 2 liters full of water are fun to shoot


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

C'mon over. Let me shoot you with my 9mm, if you still have it in ya you can shoot me with your 45. See what I mean? Nobody will ever take me up on that offer when the 45 acp vs 9mm argument comes up. I dunno why  I mean really nobody want's to get shot, even with a 22. 

You're right a 45 is a much stronger bullet, slolwer moving alot more mass, will knock someone down and throw them back... but there is such a thing as over kill. Some Spec Ops do now use a 45, but war is war and self defense can't be compared IMO. Unless the perp is on PCP, or wearing body armor or something, they'll feel it if they get hit.

I just ordered 2,000 rounds of 223 and 2,000 rounds of 5.56 ysterday for resale and ordered about 10 different 12ga types for personal use to try in my new FN SLP shot gun to find out which round it likes to eat the best. 

When I get my Springfield XDM 5.25" 9mm, I will begin USPSA multi-gun  Maybe will be good enough and I can pick up a sponsor and quit roofing.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> C'mon over. Let me shoot you with my 9mm, if you still have it in ya you can shoot me with your 45. See what I mean? Nobody will ever take me up on that offer when the 45 acp vs 9mm argument comes up. I dunno why  I mean really nobody want's to get shot, even with a 22.


Only if we can walk 10 paces at the stroke of noon. I should be on vacation this week, and look where im at work. getting shot doesnt sound to bad right now. :laughing: Plus I would "c'mon" over but gas is too expensive to drive there. Its like an 8 hour drive so thats two tank fulls of gas just to get there. 





Grumpy said:


> When I get my Springfield XDM 5.25" 9mm, I will begin USPSA multi-gun  Maybe will be good enough and I can pick up a sponsor and quit roofing.


Your going to need someone to clean your guns and other such tasks. Sounds alot better then this business right now. Dont forget us little people.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

1985gt said:


> Your going to need someone to clean your guns and other such tasks. Sounds alot better then this business right now. Dont forget us little people.


A gun caddy  

Seriously I don't have the time nor money to commit to getting good enough to get to a championship level. I'd be doing it for the fun of it strictly. Why are my hobbies so damned expensive?!

Shhhh don't tell the wife, but when I get paid on this ballasted EPDM parking garage roof I'm gonna pick up that XDM.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Gun caddy LMAO

My lips are sealed I wont tell her!

As long as you dont say anything about the 4 wheeler im going to pick up next week for the upcoming hunting season, although she may notice it in the garage.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

I got 9 acers in WI, I want to build a garage/shed, then get a 4 wheeler  She won't notice cause there isn't a bathroom  so she doesn't go there. 

My bro and I want to setup a private gun range there with a cabin and etc... but money is so damned tight, we'll probably just go there and fall some trees to make a back stop then shoot guns till the sheriffs come.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

sounds like a nice place


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

I haven't been there in a long time. I'll tell ya next time I go  I gotta save a few bucks to pay for a plat of survey. I want to know the exact extents of my property line before I start chopping trees, shooting guns, and otherwise opening myself to liability.


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