# What to do with this roof?



## JonS (May 15, 2012)

I have an EDPM roof over our shop. It is basically 3 roofs of different heights, but all flat. The lowest rubber roof is covered with river rock; the other 2 are not. We've owned the building for about 5 years. The previous owners were a non-profit and they had no idea how old the roof is. I think it is safe to say that the roof(s) are older than 20 years.

The problem we are having is that although the center of the roofs appear to be holding up well, the perimeters are not. On the highest 2 roofs, the rubber is very tight and pulling away from the para-pit walls. This is creating large are pockets under the rubber which I think is exacerbating the expansion and contraction. The building's overall size is probably about 100x100 so the roof is very large.

I'm trying to decide what the best way to proceed with a repair / replacement would be. I'd prefer not to replace the roof entire roof if it is possible, especially knowing that only the perimeters are creating issues. My concern for continuing to repair or replace with EDPM is the contraction. A previous repair that was done a few years ago is already starting to pull off the para-pit again. I've heard that modified may be a better solution because it doesn't contract like EDPM does.

I've attached as many pictures as I can fit on here. I'm curious what the opinions are of those that are in the business. I'm currently going to withhold the opinions of the roofers that have seen it so I don't create an early bias.


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## JonS (May 15, 2012)

More pictures...


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## JonS (May 15, 2012)

last few pictures. I have more if they are helpful to anyone or someone wants to see something specific. 

Much appreciated.

Jon


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## shazapple (Dec 3, 2010)

This is very typical for EPDM, especially older installations. The solution is to simply cut and patch The perimeters with new material and anchor strips. It's a maintenance item.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

EPDM is nice in the fact that it can be repaired fairly easily, as Shaz said cut and patch. If I were bidding this job I would be bidding two parts. 1 ) Inspect entire roof and repair as necessary to bring up to a maintainable condition, no warranty. Keep in mind these patches are going to be pretty extensive from what I can see in the photos. 2) After inspect and patching aforementioned, a complete seam and penetration restoration and I would issue a 2 year warranty on the roof. I would also propose to remove any and all un-necessary and unused mechanicals and supports from the roof. 

I'd also be recommending you set aside a budget for a complete roof replacement. At the end of the day it may be more economical in the long run to replace the roof. Just depends on your budgets and how long you expect to remain in the building. You should also consider a twice annual inspection before and after winter to ensure the roof remains in maintainable condition. 

You're going to need to redo much of the walls beneath the counter flashing I fear. You see that metal pipe strapping in the last pic? Well that aint right! It should be termination bar like in the other pics. 

Where is this project located?


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## JonS (May 15, 2012)

I agree that long term plan is to replace everything. It's just not an option to do right now. Patch and pray sounds a bit better for a short term solution.

For the most part I think the roof is good, but there are definitely some bad sections and some real poor repairs that were done by the previous owner.

I think if we were instructed, we would be able to do the maintenance on the roof. The last roofer that was up there put a white coating on the section he repaired. I don't know if the coating did anything, but we could mop that on there if we knew what it was and where to get it.

We are located in Pittsburgh.

Thanks again,

Jon


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

20 year old ballast roof, replace that. Then patch the mechanically attached ones. That is what I would recommend to do. You could do the roof in 3 sections but start with the ballast. Don't go cheap-o on a new roof system. Also there is not enough ballast (rock) on the roof to begin with. Coating it at this point will be money down the drain. Fix the EPDM first, then a coating on the mechanically attached roofs would give it a little bit longer life expectancy.

Oh and a number of manufactures put dates on their EPDM, this will give you an approximate year it was put on.


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## JonS (May 15, 2012)

1985,

The ballast roof is in visually better condition than the top 2 roofs are. It has 2 small leaks that we haven't been able to find because of the river rock. I had planned on emptying the rock off the roof (we have a bunch of laborers at work and I don't care about my back either), so that I'm not paying roofers to take rocks off the roof. 

Is there any reason not to go that route? The few areas we pulled the rocks back at to find leaks have already started to stretch. It should be visible in the pictures.

Thanks again,

Jon


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

JonS said:


> 1985,
> 
> The ballast roof is in visually better condition than the top 2 roofs are. It has 2 small leaks that we haven't been able to find because of the river rock. I had planned on emptying the rock off the roof (we have a bunch of laborers at work and I don't care about my back either), so that I'm not paying roofers to take rocks off the roof.
> 
> ...


Ballast roofers are usually 45 mil where the mechanically attached should be 60 mil. I would venture a guess that the ballast roof is a lay over of a old asphalt roof. I can see from the photo more then two areas that would be leaking. The reason the leaks may not be showing up on the inside is the fact of another roof system being under that one. This also could be the case with the mechanically attached roofs also. I personally would feel much better patching/extending the field of a 60 mil then of a 45 mil if they in fact 20 or so years old.

The leaks will also be more difficult to find because of any roofs under the ballast or mechanically attached, water will migrate from one area to another. Another fact could be the roof deck its self. It's not unheard of for water to travel across a roof deck for a distance, doubly hard if you have a poured concrete deck. Metal/wood/precast will generally only travel so far. But if you factor in multiple roof layers and possibly a base sheet moped/adhered to a roof deck the leaks can be coming from a lot of different areas but only showing up in one area.

Trust me I understand money is an issue, and roofing if done right can be very expensive, roofing done wrong can easily double that cost. I am all for repairing roofs, and when done properly they can last a very long time, but some times a roof is just plain shot, fixing it only would be spending needless money. 

I can only give personal real world experience from here, and pictures only show so much, it may not be that bad in person but from the pictures it does not look good. I would suggest having someone come out and look at it. Even if they charge you a few hundred dollars to do a good inspection you will get a better idea of where you stand. I urge to check out a few roofers, don't just call one treat it like a job interview since it really is. your paying them to work for you don't settle for a fly by nighter.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Forgot to answer about the rock part. 

The rock is to hold the membrane in place, if the membrane is already stretching and you remove that rock and they stretch more, I think you have your answer. EPDM after the years tends to try to go back to its original shape, that generally is a big ball. At least that's what I've been told. Either way it won't stop stretching on its own. 

The more I think about it I'd almost be willing to bet under the ballast roof is a bur with a concrete deck, the other two roofs are probably steel or wood. The reason I say that is because if the roofs were put on at the same time why wouldn't they have put a mechanically attached roof on the ballast? Or they could have been done at different times by different companies and I'm completely wrong. 

Also it is perfectly acceptable to do a portion of the roofing work your self. We have done them for customers who tear off the roof them selfs. As long as the roofing company knows this I don't see where a problem would be. They should understand that it might not have been done exactly as they would have and plan for it.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

One more thing, on the first and second picture of the mechanically attached roof. Are those edges pulling away? Was that a cap metal at one time or is it a canted/sloped edge. The reason I ask if the edges are slope/canted it could be possible that there is a coal tar pitch roof under the EPDM. If there is proceed very carefully. The flashings/felts could be asbestos and the asphalt dust will burn/irritate any uncovered skin and really sucks when you get it in your eyes. 

A way to test it is to break off a chunk if you can and burn it with a lighter, smell the smoke and it will have a very different smell then regular asphalt, regular asphalt burning will smell similar to when they pour a new road.


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## JonS (May 15, 2012)

1985,

Good question. It appears that the copper flashing was installed first and then the rubber was run up onto the flashing after. I realize this is not correct and I'm not sure why it was done (maybe the copper flashing was from a previous roof install?). The rubber still appears to be glued / attached tightly to the top of the flashing, but the section immediately to the left of the flashing in picture 2 is definitely stretched. I don't think it is pitched, but I'm not willing to rip the rubber to find out.

I will say that on the opposite roof (not the ballast roof); the one corner has pretty much fully pulled away from the para-pit. If I look under the rubber in that corner then it appears to be asphalt that runs under the rubber and up the para-pit. I could rip out a small piece and take a picture and post if you think that helps.

Jon


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

If you can see asphalt flashing its safe to assume the rest of the roof is still there. All that means is more $ for a complete tear off and harder to find leaks. 

The edge detail is wrong, that also lead me to believe there was an asphalt roof under it.

The only way to know if it is a pitch roof is to test it. I wouldn't go tearing in to it like you said, just something to consider. Most roofers will charge extra if there is pitch. It's really not pleasant to work with.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Coating an EPDM roof is pretty much un-necessary unless you are looking for reflectivity IMO. We used to do EPDM seam restorations with fabric faced butyl tape and then coating the tape but that is un-necessary. We now do our EPDM seam restorations simply with EPDM cover tape.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

1985gt said:


> Most roofers will charge extra if there is pitch. It's really not pleasant to work with.


Yes.


Unless it's already saturated from years of leaks and standing water, then it's like mud. But if the chit is dry, it's not pleasant to wear long sleeves and face masks and goggles in the middle of the summer. Just ask our soldiers. 110 weather with pitch dust flying in the air makes me want to cry just thinking about it.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Yes it's a PITA, but better then getting it on your skin and in your eyes. I was running trucks many years ago to the dump for the crew doing a pitch tear off. I wasn't even thinking about it and left the windows open while dumping and it was windy. Needless to say it was a 12 pack of beer and a cold dark basement that night for me. The next few days were a bit painful to say the least.


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## Hutch (Dec 5, 2011)

Oh, the good ole days of pitch... I remember being the new guy on the crew and everyone conveniently forgot to tell me not to shave before tearing off pitch. Haha, its funny now, but I'll tell ya, that sir was no fun... Nothin funny about pitch dust mixing with some fresh razor burn. Well it was probably funny to some of the other guys, but not so much to me at the time. Haha. :jester:


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

We still tear off alot of pitch as our average tear off will have the original layer of pitch with 4 layers of asphalt (either bur or mod) over it.


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## Gladys_christabel (Dec 13, 2012)

I think its very tough enough to do this patch work because it also take time and cost.For better result you just remove the edpm roofs and make that roof new why means already the last owner used for its 20 years noe you are the owner of the house so you must take care of that.so change the roof it will give good result for you.

_______________________________________________
home remodeling Los Angeles


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