# Single Ply Membrane Coatings



## tomdaleh

I have customers with single-ply TPO or PVC roofs who may need a new roof but either don't have the money to replace it, so I'm curious as to whether the the coatings that some of the manufacturers are pushing for TPO/PVC membranes are all they are cracked up to be?

1) Has anyone used any of the single-ply membrane coatings available?
2) What have your experiences been with them?
3) When is the use of such a coating warranted on a single-ply membrane, if ever?
4) Suggested manufacturers and/or products?

Much Obliged.


----------



## Grumpy

Some of the liquid applied systems out there first require a primer for various single ply. For example EPDM usually requires a primer. 

I however haven't done a complete coating on a single ply yet. I have however done seam and penetration restorations on single ply with good results. 

Nothing that had rock is with coating, for example ballasted epdm. 

The warranty usually comes from following the specs of the manufacturer which most often is reinforced or taped seams and no less than 3 gallons per square applied in multiple coats.


----------



## Rosco

Hey Grumpy...

I was at a mfr training session when the topic of coating ballasted came up. They showed pics from some guy trying it, and the results weren't pretty (as you might imagine). 
He had to clear the rock (labor), clean the membrane (labor), mechanically fasten the membrane (labor), seal the fasteners (MORE labor), then put down a fluid membrane (materials + labor) only to have the thing delaminate in sheets.

They said he "just didn't get the membrane quite clean enough"... I guess to a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail!

I've done coating over membrane, and have had success. It's handy when you're going over the second roof, and the other alternative is a total tear. Selectively remove wet insulation (IR scan), seal the excision, clean the living s#!t from all else and you can get a (mfr) warranted system for half the cost of top membrane replacement; let alone complete re-roof.

It's not the answer to everything, but it's handy in certain situations. That's why I love roofing... we're a bit like doctors, ya think?


----------



## roofermike73

The use of an agressive primer is needed with the coating of PVC/TPO. Conklin doesn't have such a primer. I suggest going to google and simply searching the subject. The is a wealth of information available.


----------



## liquidrubber

*Coatings for TPO and PVC*

Chem Link has some products available and I can get them for you. On TPO they will require a primer for sure. I have provided a link to their website data sheet.

http://www.chemlink.com/docs/datasheets/chemlink_sealpack.pdf

Derrick
Meridian Liquid Coatings
http://www.meridianliquidcoatings.com


----------



## AaronB.

Any plastic membrane is going to need a primer. I have an Isocyanate primer that sticks to everything I have tried to stick it to.

EPDM should be surface-bonded before any type of coatings are applied.


----------



## Grumpy

Not every manufacturer requires primers Aaron. I have seen some that require an EPDM primer but not a TPO or pvc primer... Then seen others that require no EPDM primer but want a PVC primer, but not a TPO primer. Then others, like you said that all single ply require primer.


----------



## AaronB.

I never said every coatings manufacturer requires a primer, but for best long lasting performance, instead of low cost, you're going to need a primer.


----------



## AaronB.

Rosco said:


> Hey Grumpy...
> 
> I was at a mfr training session when the topic of coating ballasted came up. They showed pics from some guy trying it, and the results weren't pretty (as you might imagine).
> He had to clear the rock (labor), clean the membrane (labor), mechanically fasten the membrane (labor), seal the fasteners (MORE labor), then put down a fluid membrane (materials + labor) only to have the thing delaminate in sheets.
> 
> They said he "just didn't get the membrane quite clean enough"... I guess to a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail!
> 
> I've done coating over membrane, and have had success. It's handy when you're going over the second roof, and the other alternative is a total tear. Selectively remove wet insulation (IR scan), seal the excision, clean the living s#!t from all else and you can get a (mfr) warranted system for half the cost of top membrane replacement; let alone complete re-roof.
> 
> It's not the answer to everything, but it's handy in certain situations. That's why I love roofing... we're a bit like doctors, ya think?


Well of course you have (labor) in every step of every project.

What type of single ply was being coated?


----------



## Grumpy

AaronB. said:


> I never said every coatings manufacturer requires a primer, but for best long lasting performance, instead of low cost, you're going to need a primer.


 Aaron, you could be right. I haven't done any research other than to read the various manufacturers spec of whom I work with or have considered working with. However I have one manufacturer who specifically forbids the priming of TPO but requires the priming of PVC with their SEBS product. 

The point I was trying to make is that it is hard to make such blanket statements since every manufacturer is different.


----------



## roofermike73

I think the best idea is to do exactly what the specific manufacturer requires. I however would be a little leary of a manufacturer that didn't require priming over pvc/tpo unless you were using a urethane. Typical urethanes require less priming then their acrylic counter parts. 

Anyone ignorant enough to try to coat a ballasted roofing system is going to get what they deserve. Coatings aren't for everything but in the right cases they can save the building owner a considerable amount of money and a contractor can turn out jobs much quicker. The only problem that I see with the roof coating industry is that there are alot of new companies jumping into the market with untested products. Hopefully coatings won't go the way of hypalon, when a few fail and ruin the market for everyone.


----------



## Rosco

Hi AaronB.

The instance of re-coat failure was a ballasted EPDM. I'd imagine that any ballasted membrane will be a re-coat problem, however.

It's just not something I'd spec, as replacing a ballasted membrane is bound to be cheaper than coating since there would be so much labor involved (in the latter case). Besides, who wants the worry that your work product is going to delaminate in sheets within a year?

If somebody asked me to bid a coating on a ballasted membrane (after ballast removal of course) I'd do the moonwalk away from it.


----------



## PTROOFING

http://www.nationwidecoatings.com/products.htm

We stock this stuff. It has never let us down.
We use thier primer/sealer coating on everything before final coating. Its a must!


----------



## jimsonburg

Single ply roofs don't need coatings. There are numerous types of single plys. Epdm(rubber), TPO, PVC Ect..


----------



## Grumpy

I disagree because as single ply ages it deterorates like anything else in this world. After 20 years you're going to need to give some attention tot hat roof. If it's TPO for sure it'll need a coating to revitalize the membrane. 

In addition as reflectivity becomes more and more common/important many are coating their black EPDM roofs. Furthermore we all know EPDM will fail from the seams and peentrations, an elastomeric seam restoration is a great way to add another 10 years life to the roof.


----------



## PTROOFING

Grumpy said:


> I disagree because as single ply ages it deterorates like anything else in this world. After 20 years you're going to need to give some attention tot hat roof. If it's TPO for sure it'll need a coating to revitalize the membrane.
> 
> In addition as reflectivity becomes more and more common/important many are coating their black EPDM roofs. Furthermore we all know EPDM will fail from the seams and peentrations, an elastomeric seam restoration is a great way to add another 10 years life to the roof.


Completely agree, Grumpy. We have restored 1000's of feet of seams on EPDM roofs this year with an elastomeric cement and polyester fabric. Works better than the peel and stick tape imo. Great profit maker too!


----------



## RooferJim

I disagree, coating a single ply roof like EPDM is a hack and short sighted way to attempt a repair and does more harm than good. It makes my job to do a good repair for a patch or to strip in a seam almost impossible. the membrane itself is almost never the problem.

Rooferjim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


----------



## PTROOFING

RooferJim said:


> I disagree, coating a single ply roof like EPDM is a hack and short sighted way to attempt a repair and does more harm than good. It makes my job to do a good repair for a patch or to strip in a seam almost impossible. the membrane itself is almost never the problem.
> 
> Rooferjim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com


You sir are correct, The membrane itself (field of roof roof) is almost never the problem. The probs with EPDM is FIELD SEAMS that dry out. Seam cover tape works, but is expensive and does not hold up to standing water. Cleaning the EPDM surface with water and a bit of Pine Sol, letting dry, Applying an elastomeric primer to bad seams, then an elastomeric cement with fabric is the cure. BLACK EPDM = LOW LIFE SPAN. Install an elastomeric coating over existing roof and gain 5-10yrs. And.........to rooferjim........how does a water based (latex) product on an EPDM (Rubber) roof make your patch impossible. You should be worried about the guys who put asphalt cement to patch a hole on a rubber roof instead. Asphalt oils eat rubber, not latex.


----------



## Grumpy

Elastomeric is renewable. It'll last 10 years and then renew it. Yes the membrane is seldom ever the problem unless it has punctures, therefore you can in theory renew the epdm membrane indefinetly and it's warrantable.

If it keeps the water out and can last 10 years, how is it a hack job?


----------



## abear3

EB system coatings out of MN is a good product. On older tpo or pvc roofs you will want to use a primer. this will help your customer get about another five years.


----------



## RooferJim

You guys must be painters  . We do a lot of repair on old roofs . I was on one last week that was installed in 1978 and still good, just needed to strip in the seams and repair some flashing and it should go 20 more years. My seam tape is a hell of a lot better and proper than some glorified paint job. 

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


----------



## Grumpy

Ebear, that's ER systems.


----------



## Grumpy

RooferJim said:


> You guys must be painters  . We do a lot of repair on old roofs . I was on one last week that was installed in 1978 and still good, just needed to strip in the seams and repair some flashing and it should go 20 more years. My seam tape is a hell of a lot better and proper than some glorified paint job.
> 
> RooferJim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com


 The way I look at it, elastomeric seam restoration like a triple course "dope and midi" on an asphalt based roof. 


The reason I prefer the elastomeric seam restoration vs the SA cover tape seam restoration is simple... I am only certified by one single ply manufacturer. Therefore if a manufacturer warranty on the seam restoration is a requirement, I can't bid. However some of the elastomeric manufacturers I work with will warrant my work on anyone's membrane. 

And for the record, I can also install a butyl tape restoration using various fabric faced butyl tapes. Infact the steps are the same as if you were using some kind of self adhering cover tape by Firestone of Carlisle, except I then saturate the tape with a coating of elastomeric... in my book that's extra coverage. 

Neither way is wrong. I have done both with good result. Every situation is different. Also for the record, I seldom use acrylics, even when the slope allows.


----------



## RooferJim

if there is nothing wrong with the membrane isnt it ridiculous to paint it ?
When a roofer has to patch a painted membrane the right way it makes it hard to clean and prime it properly to make a good seal or damn near impossible to heat weld. You end up killing the roof.


----------



## PTROOFING

RooferJim said:


> if there is nothing wrong with the membrane isnt it ridiculous to paint it ?
> When a roofer has to patch a painted membrane the right way it makes it hard to clean and prime it properly to make a good seal or damn near impossible to heat weld. You end up killing the roof.


There is nothing wrong with coating (not painting) an existing EPDM roof at all. White elastomerics will handle the expansion and contraction of an EPDM roof and also help cool the building and prolong the original roof. If on a heat welded system, the new contractor doing the repairs must notice that it is now an elastomeic system and repair accordingly. Seam tape on EPDM may be "the industry standard", but we do what works for us and our customers are satisfied. A cool elastomeric cement, seeping into rotten seams, covered with fabric and an additional coating of cement works wonders. We have coated fully over 20 EPDM roofs within the last 2 years and building owners always tell us how happy they are. We Use:
http://nationwidecoatings.com/

or Mule-Hide Products


----------



## Grumpy

RooferJim said:


> if there is nothing wrong with the membrane isnt it ridiculous to paint it ?
> When a roofer has to patch a painted membrane the right way it makes it hard to clean and prime it properly to make a good seal or damn near impossible to heat weld. You end up killing the roof.


 
2 things about your comment. 1, you are right if there is nothign wrong with the membrane there is no reason to apply an elastomeric roofing system. Notice I did not say paint it because the two are not the same. I seldom do full elastomeric on EPDM, just seam and penetration restorations, unless the customer wants reflectivity. 

2, Once the roof does receive a properly installed elastomeric roofing system, it is no longer EPDM, PVC or what ever the original roof was. The original roof is now the substrate and the elastomeric roofing system is the roof. In other words if a repair is needed on the elastomeric roofing system, one should look to use elastomeric compatible products, not products necessarily compatible with the original roof. 

In other words if someone put EPDM membrane over a modified bitumen roof and 10 years later needed to patch it, you wouldn't show up with a roll of modified, bucket of roof cement, and your torch and be complaining that some dummy covered the modified with EPDM, would you? No, you would use materials compatible with EPDM and solve the problem.
The same point holds true with elastomeric. Once it has been applied it becomes an elastomeric roof and should a repair be needed, use elastomeric to make the repair. 


The point being, it's not a paint job; but when installed properly becomes a true roofing system, curing anywhere from 24-38 mills thick (depending on application). The good thing about an elastomeric roofing system is that in theory it can be renwed indefinetly. In other words repairs should not be needed when the membrane is properly installed and the elastomeric renewed in pre-determined intervals. 

I know why elastomerics get a bad name. There are a number of reasons. 1) It's easier to install, thus kills labor. This is a big argument of the unions who are all about more labor, more man hours, etc... The same arguments were happening when single ply hit the market and was faster and easier to install then BUR. The old hot heads were cursing the rubber heads telling them they are killing the market. 2) I see alot of failures in elastomeric, but to be honest seldom is it a failure of the product... although I have seen that too on one particular SEBS, it was a bad product. However most failures of elastomeric are pure installation errors.

These elastomeric installation errors include using acrylic where there may be ponds. Treating the roof system like paint instead of like a roof, and by far the number one failure I see in elastomeric roofs is that the person applyign the product does not properly prepapre the original roof to recieve the new.


----------



## gograiley

*Recent single ply coating*

A few images of a recent single ply coating that we did that totaled about 150,000 sq ft. Many good reasons to coat single ply. We have single ply roofs that have coated 15 years ago still going strong. Depending on the system proper seam prep is a important steep.


----------



## PTROOFING

gograiley said:


> A few images of a recent single ply coating that we did that totaled about 150,000 sq ft. Many good reasons to coat single ply. We have single ply roofs that have coated 15 years ago still going strong. Depending on the system proper seam prep is a important steep.


PERFECTO!!!!!!!!!! VERY NICE!:thumbup:


----------



## RooferJim

Everybody loves instant roof in a can right . take the roofer out of roofing.
It makes it easier for the illegal aliens to use.
RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


----------



## gograiley

I don’t think you understand. Part of it is about extending the useful and reliable life of an existing system to reduce the overall lifecycle cost. Depending on the type of lease the owner has with the tenant coating will likely fall in to the CAM category rather than a capital expense making things a win-win. It’s very, very easy and takes very little experience to say it needs a new roof and install a single ply. I see it done all the time. It takes a lot more knowledge to say it doesn’t need a new roof but doing X can get you ten more (or more) years at half the price. The savings for the customer really adds up when you do it to 10s of millions of sq ft for them.


----------



## Grumpy

RooferJim said:


> Everybody loves instant roof in a can right . take the roofer out of roofing.
> It makes it easier for the illegal aliens to use.
> RooferJim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com


 
Jim I am going to point out the flaws in your statement. Like anything it only looks ez. It is ez, but requires know how, because it's also ez to mess up as you know. 

2nd there is not much in the way of reduced labor. The method we use is a pour, spred and roll. On an average job I figure 3 men can put down the base coat at 80 squares per day, then put down the top coat at another 80 squares per day. In other words 80 squares takes 48 hours. Plus prep and wash which varies from roof to roof but could easily add another day of work, that's another 24 hours. This breaks down to 1.1 square per man hour.

Comparing that to a single ply lay over, I figure a 6 man crew can do 60 squares per day on a fairly open roof. That's 48 hours. That breaks down to 1.25 squares per man hour. In other words when we do single ply we are "taking the roofer out of roofing." 

If you spray apply the product, you can put down about 100 squares with the same 3 man crew but that will require specialized equipment that the typical "illegal" can't afford. Besides you can't just go out and paint a roof, it will fail, you have to be trained on what you are doing, how to apply it, at what application rates, which product to use for a specific roof, any primers neeeded. Yes it's less back breaking than a tear off but does not require any less skill.


----------



## roofermike73

RooferJim said:


> You guys must be painters  . We do a lot of repair on old roofs . I was on one last week that was installed in 1978 and still good, just needed to strip in the seams and repair some flashing and it should go 20 more years. My seam tape is a hell of a lot better and proper than some glorified paint job.
> 
> RooferJim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com


It is this attitude that is what is wrong with the roofing industry. I seriously doubt that a 22 year old sheet of rubber that has lost much of it's elasticity and is probably brittle as can be will go another 20 years . It would have been to your customers benifit to offer them a "paint job" to turn their roof white and relieve some of the termal shock that their old worn out rubber roof is going through. If I were you I would go back to that customer and turn a little bit of extra profit and help make their roof last longer. You will look like the hero. Unless you sent a sample off to be chemically analyzed, there is no way to be certain the expected life of the roof after 22 years of strectching and shrining, erosion due to wind and rain and loss of carbon black. I hope you didn't pomise your customer another 20 years because that sounds like a great way to lose a customer.

This one siz fits all approach that is so prevalant in the roofing industry needs to change. There are certain instances that coating is the exactly right thing to do,there are others when tearing off and replacing the single ply is the correct way to go, blanket statements in either direction only serve to destroy ones credibility.


----------



## SureCoat Systems

Hey you are both right! Because coatings are grossly misused, they have gotten a Black Eye. Coatings should only be applied by a contractor who has knowledge of what structurally sound means and how the roof assembly goes together. You can't buy something that costs less than quality interior wall paint and put it on a roof and be upset when it peels off and has no reflectivity nor waterproofing ability. The SureCoat Roof System is one of a very few, if any, single component coating products that works on flat roofs, and complies with Southern California's very low VOC requirement of max 50g/l. Sure-A-Thane has 23g/l. The agency that regulates architectural coating in the southern basin chose a SureCoat System to recondition their 117,600 sq ft 14 year old Hypalon roofs. The SCRS works by cross linking high end resins and proprietary materials to form a fluid cold applied monolithic membrane that is self adhered, self flashing, and self priming. It works over every type of roofing system on the market including single ply such as Hypalon, EDPM, TPO, PVC, it even works on metal in most cases without a primer, existing BUR including gravel, modified, concrete and of course SPF. SureCoat was made originally to keep foam roofs water tight and from UV deterioration. It is the ONLY roof coating that I know of that is waterproof from surface to substrate - and has a written Manufacturer's Material Warranty that states it will not fail due to ordinary ponding caused by natural precipitation. You can not buy that with anyone’s NDL for a fee; you get it for free by installing the SureCoat Roof System according to specification for that particular roof. (You must be a contractor to access the warranty.) Usually 4 gallons per square system will give you 10 years. Most manufacturers make you do 5-8 steps to get any warranty that always excludes failure in ponds. I know of only one other product that gives you 48 hours of ponding before the warranty is void; if it rains for 2 days you are out of warranty. SureCoat's product is CRRC rated under Sure-A-Thane #1098-0001. The perm rating on this material is outstanding, it is .019. With a high solid content of 65% by volume (81% by weight) it leaves 10.426 dry mils per gallon per square. In order for an elastomeric to work it has to be able to move without getting brittle and without tearing. The 398% elongation provides enough movement without memory failure so it never gets brittle. See for yourselves at http://SureCoatSystems.com


----------



## RooferJim

Holy Spam Batman !


----------



## PTROOFING

Without properly flashing all curbs, seams, pipes, etc, a coating is not useful. All seams, penetrations, curb flashings, etc. must be coated with an elatomeric cement and fabric prior to coating. Easily get another 10yrs out of roof. Maybe have a few repairs here and there, but save the building owner from roof replacement and put $$$ in your pocket, always knowing you did the right thing.


----------



## RooferJim

It might put "$" as you say,in your pocket. But it sure is not the right thing. If you have unskilled workers "or illegal aliens" then im sure its an attractive business venture, just like driveway sealer right ? "roof in a can is a scam"


----------



## Grumpy

Keep on thinking that Jim, but it's one more bullet in my arsenol. I think you only say that because you don't understand it. It can and does work fine when properly installed. Adding life to someones roof is not a scam.


----------



## RooferJim

I understand your point, but my point is that the membrane itself is almost never the issue. Thats why I do repairs with like materials. EPDM we repair with EPDM, PVC we repair with PVC, infact we try to always use the same original manufactures not only for warranty complience but because the formular for the membrane would be exact. Painting "coating,etc" makes it impossible to repair properly. I have been in this industry long enough to have an informed opinion. Although I do believe that coating an old metal roof can be a good thing, just not single ply. We did a GAF Topcoat job last year with good results and the patina green finish coat looked good.
I tell the building owners the truth, im not just in this for the money.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


----------



## Grumpy

I agree Jim, BUT there is always a BUT. 

I'm not goign to warrant a full roof system by doing a simple seam restoration. Some manufacturers will if youa re using their materials to fix their membrane. Of coarse we both know you'd have to be certified by that manufacturer. I however am small potatoes and certified by very few manufacturers, which prevents me from providing a NDL warranty on a restoration that some customers seek.

Perhaps you are certified by all the big name manufacturers, so you don't have this problem. Therefore I offer an option that allows me to give the customer want they want. No leaks with a manufacturer warranty, regardless of whos' membrane it may be.


----------



## roofermike73

RooferJim said:


> I understand your point, but my point is that the membrane itself is almost never the issue. Thats why I do repairs with like materials. EPDM we repair with EPDM, PVC we repair with PVC, infact we try to always use the same original manufactures not only for warranty complience but because the formular for the membrane would be exact. Painting "coating,etc" makes it impossible to repair properly. I have been in this industry long enough to have an informed opinion. Although I do believe that coating an old metal roof can be a good thing, just not single ply. We did a GAF Topcoat job last year with good results and the patina green finish coat looked good.
> I tell the building owners the truth, im not just in this for the money.
> 
> RooferJim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com


I am also not just "in it for the money". There is more than one way to skin a cat. Once a roof has reached it's life expectancy it makes perect sense to install another roofing system over the top of it including coating systems. If all the proper steps are taken a smart contractor can install one of these sytems over an existing EPDM roof. In some cases if caught early enough I can offer my customers a full system warranty on the system from the deck up at a fraction of the cost of a new EPDM and give them the added benefit of a cool roof. 

As for using sysem specific repairs, have you ever gone over an existing BUR with a EPDM? Why didn't you pull out the tar ketlle and mop a couple more plys over the top of it? How about modified? The fact of the matter is that so many people are so in love with single ply that they can't see using anything else. The roofing industry is going through another evolution. If we were having this discussion back in the early eighties you would be telling me how hot tar is the way to go and I would be trying to talk to you about single plys. I imagine if we were to go far enough back we would be arguing about the best way to patch the roof of the cave, you wanting to use the time tested method of clay mud and me suggesting the use of a sticky black substance that I found in a nearby pool. Sometimes the "new" stuff is better and sometimes not, that being said acrylic coatings are really not that new to the roofing industry(late 1970's)

Are there companies that use "illegals an untrained workers"? Of course there are you forgot to mention that alot of these illegals and untrained workers are installing shinges and a small percentage might be installing coatings, in my area (Central Missouri) it would be less than 1%. Regardless of the system to perform a quality install has to first start with quality products and quality personel. The attention to detail is what seperates the professionals from the fly by nighters regardless of the system installed.


----------



## gograiley

RooferJim said:


> I understand your point, but my point is that the membrane itself is almost never the issue. Thats why I do repairs with like materials. EPDM we repair with EPDM, PVC we repair with PVC, infact we try to always use the same original manufactures not only for warranty complience but because the formular for the membrane would be exact. Painting "coating,etc" makes it impossible to repair properly. I have been in this industry long enough to have an informed opinion. Although I do believe that coating an old metal roof can be a good thing, just not single ply. We did a GAF Topcoat job last year with good results and the patina green finish coat looked good.
> I tell the building owners the truth, im not just in this for the money.
> 
> RooferJim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com


I had the same thoughts 20 years ago. I called it a bucket of wonder. When I started spending a lot of time with RCI years ago I started to experiment with coatings a bit more. Like anything else lots of great coatings out there being improperly installed. Yes the field seems do need to be recovered on EPDM but the heat welded seams only need to be probed before coating. One of the roofs in the pictures is an EP membrane and it was the membrane itself that was the issue. There was no way to spot repair it. A full coating allowed for a full NDL and gave the roof an energy star rating. Primer is called for with some of the weaker products but should not be needed with most of the non water based products. I don’t understand how coating makes it impossible to repair properly. You should ask for a few free 5 gal samples from a manufacture. You might be surprised 
www.gograiley.com


----------



## RooferJim

What is EP membrane ? We have used coatings for metal roofs just not single ply.


----------



## gograiley

It is a single ply thermoplastic that was made by Stevens. Overall it did not work out to well. You can cut a sq ft of 7 year old EP from a roof and hold it up to the sun and see light through it. I think they still make it with a “new improved” formula 

www.gograiley.com


----------

