# Cedar shingle and siding intersections



## Aceditall (Mar 28, 2011)

This is a project I am involved with as a consultant for an insurance company. The cedar shingle roofing in question was damaged as a result of hail damage. The insurance company opted for full replacement. The owner is now claiming siding needs to be replaced due to roof replacement (see comment below) . Photos 1-3 are showing dormers and siding as inspected. Photos 4-5 show contractors work during replacement.

_the siding in question is on both sides and in front of the roof dormers. The roofers cannot fully complete the sealing process by putting flashing under the siding to keep out the elements unless the existing siding is removed. This cannot be done without damaging or destroying the existing siding. We need to know if the insurance company took that into consideration with the damage replacement estimate. We have 78 dormers that would each require approximately two sheets of siding each. The siding we would need is Cement Board Siding T-111. Let me know as soon as you can so I can direct the roofers on what to do._ 

My question is this. Why would you need to replace siding to replace the roofing and why the existing flashing (assuming there is existing) would need to be replaced? I have replaced many roofs and the existing roof wall rake flashing sufficed. 

The contractor has also made this statement:

_he indicated he cut back on the vertical siding about six inches to install the shingles, and then later reinstalled the six inch cut out of the siding back in._

I don't mind authorizing payment for required work but for the life of me I don't understand why you couldn't replace shingles without removing siding unless...........siding was another issue (i.e. deterioration). Also I don't see in the contractor photos 4-5 any removal of the siding during the replacement of the roof. What are your opinions on this?


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Awww crap I wrote a long post and it dissapeared.

I see nothing wrong with the trim board following the side wall to allow for the tins to be replaced. There is one potential problem however if not properly installed and that is the potential for leakage right at the very corner where the side wall trim board meets the verticle corner. 

IN many cases there is usually no reason to disturb the siding. often times the tins can be slid behind the siding. Sometimes the siding can be loosened just enoguh to remove the tins. Heck, most slapp happy get 'er done roofers won't even bother to replace the flashings, that tins will often last 2-3 roofs. So Kudos to the roofer who took the time to replace the siding. We also like to pre-flash with ice shield at those side walls, but the insurance companies don't pay for a good job. Go figure. 


In the pictures it looked like they were leaving the felt on. Please tell me they repalced the felt! That'd be a bigger concern of mine, especially on a cedar roof.


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## Ed the Roofer (Sep 15, 2008)

On the 3rd photo, it looks like they Did cut away the bottom 8"-12" of the siding on the left and right walls and filled it in with 1" x ? which was then painted to match the T-111.

A new roof, along with that contractors warranty, should most likely include new step and counter flashings, so that the old nail holes from the previously installed roof do not allow water leakage.

yes, most times the flashings are not replaced, but that is due to trying to keep the price down or laziness, which is not in the best interests of the newly installed roofing system.

It also looks like they Did install new roof to wall front dormer apron flashings, for the same reason.

Ed


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## Aceditall (Mar 28, 2011)

Ed the Roofer said:


> On the 3rd photo, it looks like they Did cut away the bottom 8"-12" of the siding on the left and right walls and filled it in with 1" x ? which was then painted to match the T-111.
> 
> A new roof, along with that contractors warranty, should most likely include new step and counter flashings, so that the old nail holes from the previously installed roof do not allow water leakage.
> 
> ...


Actually photo 3 is part of my initial roof inspection prior to replacment. it shows a different configuration of some of the dormer siding (ie trimboard at the rake) possibly indicating prior damage as evident at the following photo.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Ace, if I were the inspector and they saw cut and installed a trim board on the side walls, it would pass my inspection. FWIW.

Ed, I was not condoning the practice of reusing flashings. Just stating a fact. As you are already aware we almost always repalce all flashing. It makes us more expensive but I can sleep at night knowing there will be fewer call backs. If it costs me a few jobs I guess that's the price of my sleep.


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## Ed the Roofer (Sep 15, 2008)

Grumpy said:


> Ace, if I were the inspector and they saw cut and installed a trim board on the side walls, it would pass my inspection. FWIW.
> 
> *Ed:
> Me too, as long as a Z-Flashing was installed on top of the trim boards and behind the siding product.*
> ...



If they want it done right, it will cost accordingly.

I usually point that out during the initial sit-down with the customer when I go over my proposal and specifications, but definitely when we unexpectedly encounter it during job progress.

Ed


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

A Z flashing or a sloped sill cut atop the trim board would work equally as well.


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## Ed the Roofer (Sep 15, 2008)

Grumpy said:


> A Z flashing or a sloped sill cut atop the trim board would work equally as well.


Correct. I agree and just was too lazy to type in about that method, plus the correct way to caulk behind the canted edge of the trim board prior to installing it, in addition to the surface caulking.

Ed


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Reminds me of a prevailing job I was on once. The carpenter was all over my case because we are not union. Every day he was pointing out something we were supposedly doing wrong to the on site super. Every day I had to bring out the spec book and architect drawings and show I was doing he right thing. After a week or so I got fed up and started pointing out everything he was doing wrong. He finally went away.

But what he was doing wrong, I always get a kick out of it. No caulk between the scrafe cuts on the trim boards. His excuse we don't caulk that's the painters job. Well how will the painter get caulk between boards? No z flashing. His excuse, that's the sheet metal unions job. LOL. 

I think the nail in the coffin was whern he get back charged for nailing his supports for his scaffold through my brand new roof. Didn't take the 10 minutes to lift the shingles and it cost him plenty! I was going to caulk them for free, but insted fixed them at prevailing wage and we took our time doing it. 



I was going to bid the cedar siding on that job toob ut it was bundled in with the interior trim work package for some reason. LOL I bet he didn't know I had been doing siding for years, looked like he had just picked it up to be honest. I don't do sinding anymore though. I focus on the roofing. I only take on siding now if it's attached to a roofing job I really want.


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## dougger222 (Aug 13, 2010)

We typicaly detach/reset or remove/replace wood siding that's above a side wall detail when replacing the shingle tins. 

How many of you have torn off a roof to see the step flashing was never fastened down to the roof? I've seen it several times. That being said why replace it??? 

To the OP, I see nothing wrong with either method (cutting a board in or replacing the siding all together). It's not a ton of siding to replace so after buying what looks like a rather large and expensive cedar shingle roof it shouldn't break the bank!

Most all insurance companies pay to remove and replace all flashing on a roof. What's odd is it's tough to convince them you have to detach/reset or remove/replace siding to do so. Most with pics will pay for it. One however said he called his friend who's a roofer and said to just put ice and water under the tins, that's all he paid for. The funny thing was he said the roof was paid for 6 month previously and new tins were installed then. Guess what? ORIGINAL tins!!! He didn't want to come out to inspect in person though.


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