# re-roofing question



## jcwill

Is it ok to install a 30yr architectural shingle over an existing 20yr fiberglass shingle on a 6/12 roof. the roof that is on there is in ok shape and the only reason the customer wants to change the roof is because a tree feel on part of the roof and thought might as well replace the whole thing. just wondering if anybody has done it in the past or do you HAVE TO tare off? didnt think it should be done but on the bundle of shingles it has instructions for re-roofing. thank you.


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## Grumpy

Define "OK". Acceptable by code? Maybe. Call your local code department. Many municipalities around here do allow it but each year more and more are requiring tear offs. In addition the City of Chicago who used to allow 3 layers lowered that to 2 layers maximum. Maybe in another 20 years they will begin to require tear offs too.

If you ask me, no a layover on a sloped roof is not "ok". Why? Sloped roofs are designed to shed water, but if you are simply installing shingles over shingles, which is what a lay-over is, then you are not doing anything to defend against backup to that system. Ice damning, wind driven rains, flashings, ventilation... In addition there could be bad wood beneath the original roof, how can you fix that if you don't tear off the old roof. If you don't fix the bad wood, the new roof will just blow away. 

What does the customer want. You said "replace" the whole thing. To me "replace" means tear off. I always assume the customer wants a tear off unless they specifically tell me otherwise. I always start my presentation by explaining how we are going to protect before tearing off then explain we look for rotten wood when we tear off. At this point if they don't want a tear off, they let it be known. I then try to talk them into a tear off explaining why, showing them pictures of rotten wood. If they refuse, ok, but I tried.


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## Ed the Roofer

Get him to sign an RCV Contingency agreement with you and guarantee that if you get the job approved via his home owners insurance policy for the amount equal to what a "Like Kind And Quality" roof replacement would cost, due to not being able to repair the old shingles and not being able to uniformly match the colors, that he would be responsible for his required deductible and fees for the upgraded roof.

The insurance coverage should cover the cost of removal and replacement for him.

Ed


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## Jasonthompson

Plus didn't u say a tree fell on the roof in that case there prob some wood repair so u need to tear off at least that section of roof. But Grumpy and Ed are right u should always tear the roof off then u can find out if there is any problems u need to address. But thats my opinion.


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## scuglass

i turn jobs down if the h.o. does not want the old shingles tore off, but then again its each to there own .


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## roofcrazy

The biggest question you should be asking is, "do I want a good top quality job or just a so-so job?"A top quality job starts with a tear off to determine how good the decking is. And replace any/all problem wood. PERIOD!!


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## Nick Tomich

If the roof is in ok shape; no major curling, no missing shingles, no leaks,etc a new layer should be ok. Replace vents and soil pipe boots and tear off the ridge caps. Indiana allows 3 layers but i would never recommend. We have done work for H.O.A.s and P.o.a.s. Education to them is the key.


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## ronbryanroofing

No covers. Ever. All those reasons above and one more... Your pride and the right to say you do things right. HO's will respect flat out refusals of "covers" and imagine after the ability to collect any money for any additional work required to do the work properly and give a warrantee on your work? Walk away... walk away and shake your head.


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## gtp1003

I agree with alot said here. i will never do a recover 1 you put a 30 year shingle that will last 16 to 20 years at best. it will cook from behind. SO if the guy is planing on staying there for the rest of his life i would either do what ed said or tear offf or see yea.


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## DFWRoofing

Can you? Yes
Should you? No


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## larryb

Is it ok? In some areas, at least according to building codes - yes. In all areas, according to common sense, concern for your reputation and the overall quality of the job for your customer - never!


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## Poynor Roofing

By Code you can shingle over existing shingles if it is only one prior layer in Most areas. That Being said, it would be hard to find a roofing company that will want to put their shingles over existing shingles if the insurance company payed to tear off the shingles.


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## Dan Gravelle

*never*

I would never think of doing such a thing. i would explain why its wrong to do 2 layers to the h.o and if he still wants 2 layers turn him down...i have because im afraid someone is going to drive by and see me doing a butch job. Only problems come out of doing that.


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## larryb

I believe that more recent IRC code specifies certain parts of the country as hail prone and, in those areas, it is mandatory to t/o all and start fresh.


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## Roofmaster417

So you guys will walk away from a recover? I have done several in 2010 a couple for some ACV's ,,I have done some for mortgage companies and banks on some foreclosures.,do I like recovers.,not at all I think its a cheap way to go, but alot of families cannot afford a complete build so they have to do what they can afford, from our stand point we can see the big picture but if a guy has a leaky roof and he has children that need clothes,shoes and food and his wife is working at a nursing home working for peanuts, and he did make good money at one time but lost his job because his company that he worked for respectfully thought it would be in their best interest to move to mexico or somewhere else where the US government cannot break the backs of manufacturing plants and smash the american dream of small business.,then yes I will gladly do a recover.I would rather do a complete build of course but we are in a business of roofing and recovers are a part of it.I have done about 1500-2,000 recovers and have not had problems with my roofs blowing away, but what I have done, if the roof has been leaking then most of the time I will repair the leak along with the saturated/rotted decking then recover it.And I am not saying that I will tear off and entire section roof it then recover it.,problem areas being valleys,vents,flashings and pitch breaks.,and when I do a recover I replace vents, step flashings,pipe flashings all roof accessories etc. It is just like anything else if you won't do it someone else will.,and personally why would you want to waste a nice 30yr shingle ? Its like driving a Z06 on rims.
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VOLCANO VAPORIZERS


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## larryb

Roofmaster417

I understand what you're getting at, but...

If there is a situation where I know the HO (retail job) has financial problems or a senior with little money, I'd be willing to give them a break on the pricing and still do a full R&R because thats the right way to do it. 

Even repairing an obvious bad area then roofing over doesn't help anyone and it might hurt the roofer as well as the contractor when other unforseen problem areas eventually present themselves

If the local or other code says T/O, it's automatically a tear off, regardless.


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## buildpinnacle

I have yet to see one that doesn't have nails backing or popping. There is too much room between the 2 layers of shingles, the seat head, and the decking for expansion and contraction to occur. They will unseat. Also, I rarely get on a roof that doesn't need some major flashing changes. On a recover, most just go up to the chimney, butt to it, and silicone it. Silicone lasts 5 to 7 years tops around here in a heavy expansion/contraction area. I just don't agree with recovers. I won't throw darts at anyone who does them, it's just my opinion.


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## Roofmaster417

Finally some replies for my replies. I completley agree with a complete build for several reasons other than the obvious(better money) I have had Homeowners that I have given price reductions and would do it again without thought but some nuts cannot be cracked (HO's) When I do a roof inspection and all damages fall within the guidelines for a rebuild by the insurer then I will ONLY do what the insurer allows.,reason for that insurance fraud, I have had HO's try to convince me to recover then turn in my final as a rebuild.,not happening unethical and illegal.,besides with a customer like that your relationship is ruined by deceit right out of the gate. I have helped many HO's by reroofing for the price of a recover and ONLY then I made that choice a few moments before signing the contract.,I do that for the elderly.,the handicap and our beloved veterans.And a reply to the questioning of repair then a recover that is to insure that the rotted or saturated decking/insulation or other structural liabilties are addressed.,I have done this and had the HO's realize the severity of the situation and determine that a reroof is warranted. I am honest and fair with my customers in explaining the condition of they're roof system,absolutley a reroof is the ONLY way to insure that any and all
problems forseen and unforseen can be taken care of at once. And I have roofed recovers only to be called a several years later for a reroof due to storm damage and have not seen nails backed out etc.But I could see that on a plywood deck but unfortunately here in S.W Missouri 1x's are dominate. I understand everyones point and I agree but in the same token situations arise financially for HO's and rather than revolting or standing firm against a recover I will explain in detail the pro's and con's when choosing a recover versus a reroof. If I just walk away tight lipped then I have become part of the problem instead of a problem solver,and no I don't get emotional and buy into alot of the B.S the HO's try to send at me but I will not walk away from a situation to better my business and my families way of life ONLY IF its legal,ethical and noone is negatively effected by my decisions, and also ALL of my recovers all vents,ridgevents,pipe flashing,step flashing are replaced.And codes I know codes and abide by them but to give a little insight on the roofing here last year multiple counties in S.W missouri adopted the 2-layer max.,which is the law but I redecked a house last year that had 11 layers.,yep 11 :thumbup:
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Coach handbags


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## flatroofing

Tell h.o.to take a hike


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## Roofmaster417

flatroofing said:


> Tell h.o.to take a hike


That solves everything...I bet your bank account is overflowing. :laughing:
________
Toyota Raum


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## Roofmaster417

buildpinnacle said:


> On a recover, most just go up to the chimney, butt to it, and silicone it. Silicone lasts 5 to 7 years tops around here in a heavy expansion/contraction area.


Really, I have never seen that one but I have seen the butt up.Pathetic
________
ECIGS123


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## Interloc

over the top sucks, but if thats all the h/o can afford oohh wweell at least he'll be dry...guys that say they wont do it..BS!!


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## buildpinnacle

Roofmaster417 said:


> Really, I have never seen that one but I have seen the butt up.Pathetic


You've never seen roofs in Texas or Oklahoma. I've never in my life seen such bad quality as a whole. Ironically, both states (until recently in OK) have not had any type of roofers registration/license. We have alot of hacks around here.


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## Roofmaster417

buildpinnacle said:


> You've never seen roofs in Texas or Oklahoma. I've never in my life seen such bad quality as a whole. Ironically, both states (until recently in OK) have not had any type of roofers registration/license. We have alot of hacks around here.


This summer past from late May into September,I was in Dell,Midwest and OKC and yes talk about some junk work.Things were slow here it got down to a couple jobs and some repairs so I sold in Ok. I have seen some storms that have had alot of roofers flocking around but my god that shi* was nuts.The most pathetic scam against HO's and local contractors was these guys were stealing the locals magnets and perpetrating as an affiliate to a local. I do know that if you got the cash you can buy into a locals business for a certain entry fee and then so much off the top to go back into the company. I am sure you know this but its somewhat like the 10-50-50 or like I was doing was 5-50-50.Your not actually buying into the company as much as it is your buying his reputation.


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## Mr Latone

buildpinnacle said:


> ........... We have alot of hacks around here.


:laughing:
:laughing:
I don't know what to say other than...you are not alone

This may be my first post here, I dunno, came over from CT.


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## buildpinnacle

Roofmaster,

I've had offices in OK, amarillo, DFW, and Tyler now for around 10 years. We handle mainly commercial work and alot of storm related work.....mostly storm related work in these areas. A buddy of mine stopped at a 7/11 in OKC around May/Britton couple days into the storm. We counted 26 roofing trucks that drove by one way or the other in one light change. Being from OK originally, still work there, and living in TX for many a moon now, I have seen and been through a good deal of storms. That one, however, was the craziest thing I have ever seen. We are just hitting our peak on the commercial side. All the gravel roofs that were denied due to inexperienced adjusters are always a focus after a storm and after the good round of freezes we've had in the past few weeks We have a 'meeting of the minds'.

Insofar as the buy-ins. I am very familiar and have never been a fan. I've had good friends of mine in the res side of the biz do it and get sceeeroood. There may be a handful of honest pees in the pod but the majority of them will sell enough work to get a good referral train going off of your name, pull away, start a new bank account dba'ing your name and steal all the work. I have a friend who still gets calls from 2008 roofs he didn't install or know anything about, but it's his logo, letterhead, different phone number, and the signature of one of the 'buy-in' guys salesmen who was supposed to be selling for him.


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## Roofmaster417

When I got there it was ridiculous a lady I spoke with at a gas station said she had 25 estimates by 2 in the afternoon.,I have a picture of when I was on a street looking straight down the road and every house had signs with a different company name on it.That was about 15-20 homes.Crazy, and the hotels/motels/cockroach inns were all swamped. I rented a house.
But I have never seen destruction from softball size hail.Notice Pic #2 the hail is in bedded in the roof.


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## buildpinnacle

Yeah, the hail that hit on the south side on 5/10 was much larger than that which hit on the north side on 5/18. We still had some 3.5 inch hail on the north side from that storm a week later. One of the few times I've seen full penetration in a fairly new mod bit roof. The width of the destructive swath on the 5/18 storm was one of the largest hail cores I've ever seen and I've seen my share.


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## kadesmith

Those balls of hail are AMAZING! Biggest I ever saw was one summer in Kansas that were golf ball size. I got hit in the head with one and it cut me open. I guess that someone found a bowling ball sized piece in that same storm, but I never saw anything that size. It's crazy what mother nature can do.


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## Tropical Roofing

*Always, always tear off!!! 30 year dimentional shingles on average weigh 300lbs per sq ft. dry. Do you want to trap in moisture and add 300lbs per sq to make the roof 600lbs per sq? Oh, and lets add the next snow storm on top of that roof.....:no:*

*Will you find all the soft decking when you re-roof???:no:*


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## Interloc

AAhhh thats 240#'s bud..


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## Roofmaster417

Tropical Roofing said:


> *Always, always tear off!!! 30 year dimentional shingles on average weigh 300lbs per sq ft. dry. Do you want to trap in moisture and add 300lbs per sq to make the roof 600lbs per sq? Oh, and lets add the next snow storm on top of that roof.....:no:*
> 
> *Will you find all the soft decking when you re-roof???:no:*


In a perfect world yes.I have never heard of 1 square of 3-tabs(which is what the initial inquiry was recovering) weighing in at 300 per sq, or 30's either.I have removed 11 layers off 1 roof.Until the BD started cracking down everywhere it was nothing to see 4-5 layers.It has already been established that a T/O was the way to go, but since you won't do a recover either..............send them to me.I will even give a 10% finder too.


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## Roofmaster417

Tropical Roofing said:


> *Always, always tear off!!! 30 year dimentional shingles on average weigh 300lbs per sq ft. dry. Do you want to trap in moisture and add 300lbs per sq to make the roof 600lbs per sq? Oh, and lets add the next snow storm on top of that roof.....:no:*
> 
> *Will you find all the soft decking when you re-roof???:no:*


But I can agree with you states side, I have never recovered in the state of florida.In 05' I contracted (legally too.) in the counties of Marion,Lake,Osceola,Orange,Seminole and Miami/dade and only roofed a single 2-layer,everything was 1 layer T/O but then why would you in Florida?


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## chelsea roofing

why would you want to do a poundover for one what is your ice and water sticking to,granules from whats left of the exsisting roof,two by the time you have taken the caps off,cut back 1st and 3rd courses,swept the roof you could have stripped it and had a clean solid surface to work with.what sort of guarantee can you give them going over the top .in toronto 2 layers is max,i have been to jobs that are 1layer slate , 1 cedar,2 ashpalt and the owner wants another layer, just keep driving past its not worth the headache


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## Roofmaster417

chelsea roofing said:


> ,i have been to jobs that are 1layer slate , 1 cedar,2 ashpalt and the owner wants another layer, just keep driving past its not worth the headache


 
I wish you had a picture of that a slate roof that has been recovered with a layer of shakes and 2 layers of asphalt .That is difficult to believe.


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## Interloc

i wonder what was holding the top layers on? :blink:


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## Roofmaster417

350 buckets of good ol' fiberated along with 1000 tubes of Karnack,5000 rolls of Duct tape, 20 tarps and 50 cinder blocks on top of gutter to ridge "2x4"'s and rake to rake 2"x6"'s and a whole lot of prayers.


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## lgb1roof

It seems that it is a money issue since the homeowner wants to replace the entire roof knowing the insurance will only pay for the damaged portion of the roof. He is not saving money. If he wants to save money he can let the insurance pay for the damaged area and leave the other in tact. He should keep all records from insurance stating what they have repaired. If by some cance another storm, wind or whatever shoud occur then the insurance would come in again on the whole roof. If he insists on replacing the entire roof then sell him a tear off. The price difference is not enough to compromise one of the largest investments he will make.


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## chelsea roofing

must have killed there arms they handbanged the last layer of shingles with 4inch cap nails


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## Roofmaster417

chelsea roofing said:


> must have killed there arms they handbanged the last layer of shingles with 4inch cap nails





chelsea roofing said:


> why would you want to do a poundover for one what is your ice and water sticking to,granules from whats left of the exsisting roof,two by the time you have taken the caps off,cut back 1st and 3rd courses,swept the roof you could have stripped it and had a clean solid surface to work with.what sort of guarantee can you give them going over the top .in toronto 2 layers is max,i have been to jobs that are 1layer slate , 1 cedar,2 ashpalt and the owner wants another layer, just keep driving past its not worth the headache


??????????


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## ultimateconstruction

i just think that you better re roof if the roof is already 20 years of age in service of your house. the quality isn't that good already so might as well save the sweat with other maintenance by bringing by the glory of it's new sturdy stature in the house.

http://ultimateconstruction.bmbnow.com/


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## Roofmaster417

ultimateconstruction said:


> i just think that you better re roof if the roof is already 20 years of age in service of your house.
> 
> http://ultimateconstruction.bmbnow.com/


I agree completely U.C.I am not sure if that issue (20yr+)was ever raised during this whole thread.I have not recovered a roof that was close to that age.Generally its not even a question brought to the table.The HO usually understands the need for a reroof.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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