# Maybe you should lower your price.



## user182

Do you think you can sell a lot more jobs



*Edit:*
I am placing the Original Post back into this thread, so that the topic still makes sense.

Ed



_"Do you think you can sell a lot more jobs and make more profit by lowering your price 5-10%?

Think of the time you will save if you get your close ratio up.

What if you’re not operating at full capacity, wouldn’t make sense to get more jobs lined up if lowering your price would help?"_


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## Ed the Roofer

If the difference were only 5% to 10%, I would do it in a heart beat, which I sort of do anyways with various buyers incentives and discount options, depending on various conditions and parameters.

I definitely need to have the guys working more steadily as the season is already 1/2 way done for the year and I am not yet making a sizeable enough dent in my bills, but at least some progress is being made.

Gaps in the roofing schedule mean overhead without any revenue to support it.

Ed


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## user182

Since material prices nearly doubled last year the old way of pricing isn’t going to work any more.

In the past material cost were relatively stable with minor increases each year. You could predict what your overhead was going to be as a percentage of sales fairly easy. 

If you try to charge the same percentage for overhead as you did 2 years ago you are going to be high.

How much lower it should be I don’t know.


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## Grumpy

Didn't we discuss this a few weeks back?

No I have experimented with that and my volume did NOT go up, so we just made less profit. I can never be the cheapest or even close to it with guys selling jobs below my actual cost before adding any markup. Lowering my jobs $500 would not triple my volume, and if I am not going to triple my volume by giving away half my profit I think it's a recipe for bankruptcy.


I say RAISE your price and give the customer a legitimate reason to pay the extra, and they will pay. I have found the people that hire us hire US, they don't buy our price, they buy Me. 


That's not to say I do not have room for negotiation. I mean really when it comes down to it if the customer needs a $100 discount encouragement to sign the contract... no problem. But I am certainly not going to lead in with my lowest price first, and I am almost never going to offer any sort of discount without them asking.

Case in point... I spoke with a customer whom we did some repairs a year or so ago. I emailed her a quote for redoing her entire roof which I thought she was never going to go for since they were selling and the roof is only 8 years old, but totally done WRONG. Infact I met them on Thursday and only got them the quote yesterday. I totally made it not a priority for me. One hour after I emailed it to them, they signed it and faxed it back no questions asked. Talk about suprising. Every time I think about lowering my price I think about jobs like this and I just can't bring myself to do it since I know these kinds of people would hire me anyways and I'd just be leaving too much money on the table. I actually had a job last spring where I had to arbitrarily throw a few thousand on top of my normal price or else I would have been tooooo cheap when compared to my competitor. I mean people tell me that I am high, wow, this other guy was HIGH. That was a great job charging nearly $800 a square for a one layer tear off ez walker. I need more of those!

Oh I guess another life's lesson from this story of yesterday's sale... never say No for the customer. Let them be the one to say no. There have been numerous customers whom I have mis-read and thought I'd never get the job, only for them to turn around and be some of my best customers. I know this, but every once in awhile I need some reminders.


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## OUTLAW

Good point Grumpy! Never say no for them.

As far lowering your price 10%, you would typically have to do 50% more jobs to make the same net$. Raise your prices, and then raise them again. Make GOOD money, and then service your customer like no one else.


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## Ed the Roofer

I am only realistically considering doing this, because my advertising expenses have gone down $3,400.00 per month from 2 years ago and $2,400.00 per month from last year, but I didn't adjust my pricing to reflect the decreased costs incurred, so I was trying to get the same dollar amount, plus the inflation that occurred in material cost increases, without lowering my prices and making more profit.

I have too many Off Of Work days right now for my crew and I am not getting the cash flow to cover the overhead.

The way I have always experimented in the past, is to take 1/2 of my estimates and keep them the same and the other 1/2 and tinker with the pricing, either higher or lower and evaluate the outcome between the two sets after a given time period.

Ed


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## ROOFMAX

grumpy your right on target. i assum most of ya resceve the roofing contractor magazine. i now save every isue because topics like this one is coverd by by pros like monroe porter.read some of his articles like march 2008 issue why cutting prices can be financial suicide. may 2004 do you have guys enough to raise your price. this is places i gather info. i guess what im saying is i agree with grumpy and the pros . cheeper is not the way to go it about what your selling that counts. the comsters you want to build a relation with shouldnt be conserend with cheeper price.


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## OUTLAW

Hang in there Ed.

If you drop your price, you still cant get as low as the low bid. If they are buying a price, you'll never get their work. People who buy from you do so because they like Ed the Roofer. They trust Ed the Roofer. The price is just a number.


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## Grumpy

Ed I don't think that dropping your price will raise your volume. Your overhead went down aprox 1K a month, that's less than $50 a day. That's not going to affect your sales ratio, I wouldn't think.


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## Ed the Roofer

Down $2,400.00 per month, equals about $600.00 per week, equals about $120.00 per day, if all days were work days 5 days per week, so on an average 3 day job, that works out to $360.00.

If I stop including ODE rake edge drip edge, that knocks off about $150.00 to $250.00 per job, added to the $360.00 it now seems like it would make a difference to me.

I didn't ever break it down to a per day total before, so thanks for the lesson.

I'm still just so Fricking frustrated at the closing ratio that I am considering anything right now.

Ed


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## ROOFMAX

work smarter not harder. i know of a way thats proven to increase your profits, but ya have a fit every time i menton it .:laughing: but i know for a fact . itll help ya rase your prices . not lower. thats not the answer. im still one of yaw.


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## Grumpy

Ed the answer to the question is how much higher are you than your competitors on average? I tried doing what you mentioned, well tried figuring the price to do it their way. 15 LB felt, bare minimum ice shield to satsify code and nothing more, cheap chitty iko shingles, 3 tab for ridges instead of shadow ridge, reuse the flashings, use mushrooms for kitche and bathroom vents... I wouldn't be comfortable warrantying a roof like that.... and guys would still be cheaper than me! 

The job I sold the other day, the one that I didn't give any thought and they faxed it over an hour after I emailed it to them, I found out one of the guys I was bidding against and he's real high on average. My old boss used to sub work from him until he hired me for sales and the guy got pissed that we were moving into his market. 


Ed think about it this way. If ALL our closing ratios suck that means customers aren't saying yes to anyone. I know alot of the jobs I am bidding are just sitting idle, nobody's getting the work. So the only thing I can do is keep doing what I have always done and do my call backs, periodic emails, direct mail and anything I can do to stay in touch with my unsold customer base. Eventually the dam will break and all those unsold jobs will flood in. 

I'm having the same doubts as you but every time I fall into that funk I reming myself that we're not the most expensive and we're one of the best in my market. I've ran through every scenario and method I could think of to change who I am, but then realied it's not who I am that is costing me jobs... it's the economy and people scared to pull the trigger.


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## user182

Grumpy said:


> Ed the answer to the question is how much higher are you than your competitors on average? I tried doing what you mentioned, well tried figuring the price to do it their way. 15 LB felt, bare minimum ice shield to satsify code and nothing more, cheap chitty iko shingles, 3 tab for ridges instead of shadow ridge, reuse the flashings, use mushrooms for kitche and bathroom vents... I wouldn't be comfortable warrantying a roof like that.... and guys would still be cheaper than me!
> 
> The job I sold the other day, the one that I didn't give any thought and they faxed it over an hour after I emailed it to them, I found out one of the guys I was bidding against and he's real high on average. My old boss used to sub work from him until he hired me for sales and the guy got pissed that we were moving into his market.
> 
> 
> Ed think about it this way. If ALL our closing ratios suck that means customers aren't saying yes to anyone. I know alot of the jobs I am bidding are just sitting idle, nobody's getting the work. So the only thing I can do is keep doing what I have always done and do my call backs, periodic emails, direct mail and anything I can do to stay in touch with my unsold customer base. Eventually the dam will break and all those unsold jobs will flood in.
> 
> I'm having the same doubts as you but every time I fall into that funk I reming myself that we're not the most expensive and we're one of the best in my market. I've ran through every scenario and method I could think of to change who I am, but then realied it's not who I am that is costing me jobs... it's the economy and people scared to pull the trigger.


Any type of excuse is unacceptable.

I take full responsibility for the results I produce. I have had a lot of days with no work. It’s because I haven’t properly developed or executed my marketing & sales process. Or maybe because I’m trying to make too much off each job.

Detroit is probably the worst economic environment in the country and I know there are customers out there buying.

The only way to win is to outsell & out market the other guy. You have to be better prepared and more professional.

You have to choose who you market to.

I know for a fact who is more likely to buy from more.

The more educated they are, the higher their income and the higher their home value is the more likely they are to buy from me.

The less educated they are, the lower their income and the lower their home value the less likely they are to buy from me. These people tend to shop for low price first and worry about what they bought later on. Once in a while I get referrals that fit this demographic and they end up buying low price. It’s their mindset and you can’t change it.


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## Grumpy

jack I mean this in the kindest most non herrassing and un-offending way possible... Please take no offense. 


Anyone who thinks that the reason the job isn't sold on the first sitting is due to their lack of sales skills or in your words "executed my marketing & sales process" is a complete and udder FOOL. Not EVERY customer is in a position to buy on day one. Have we all not price shopped our own purchases for a little while before we finally pulled the trigger. 

You will see that in my posts I mentioned that it seems like we are doing alot of quotes but they aren't buying, not buying from me nor from anyone. How do I know they are not buying from anyone? well I drive bye, I ask. This is something outside of my control. They're just not ready. I can not force them to buy. Oh sure I can make them soooo uncomfortable in their own home that they will feel forced to sign but then I will go to HELL with the rest of the closers and "salesmen". 


Yes out marketing and out selling is important... but there are things that are outside of our control, thus we can't do anything about them. To think you have to lower your price, or in your words are making to much on each job is ridiculious. As I pointed out in my thread if i were to match scopes of work of the guys cheating their insurance and taxes and other such legal burdens, I still couldn't compete. Making less is not an option. I already make the bare minimum on my jobs. Well, I am sure a few would disagree, I could go cheaper but at a result of what? Why work for free? I've had enough practice. 


The bottom line in this thread is that you can't win them all, and while we should certainly try, we can't. Sometimes people will hire someone else for what ever reason, it's not always price. Sometimes people hold off for a little while because they feel they have a little more life left in the roof and want to milk it for all it's worth. Sometimes they simply can not afford it, period. It's not always our faults.

Sometimes when they say no, they aren't saying "No." but are really saying "Not right now." This is why we need to constantly follow up with them and NEVER put them in a position of discomfort or pressure or they will avoid you like the plague and you'll never ever get the sale. Eventually after little daughter Suzy gets her braces and the family does what ever else they deem to be more important (maybe vacation or a nw car), they'll need to do something about that roof... and I'll be there to land the sale because all the "closers" have written the job off thinking they did something wrong and that the sale is lost when infact it wasn't lost... only delayed.


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## user182

Grumpy said:


> jack I mean this in the kindest most non herrassing and un-offending way possible... Please take no offense.
> 
> 
> Anyone who thinks that the reason the job isn't sold on the first sitting is due to their lack of sales skills or in your words "executed my marketing & sales process" is a complete and udder FOOL. Not EVERY customer is in a position to buy on day one. Have we all not price shopped our own purchases for a little while before we finally pulled the trigger.


The point is if they are only kicking tires and they are not going to buy for another 6 months it's too soon to go out and give them a 
quote.

Your problem is you don’t have the slightest idea how to qualify a prospect, I’m not perfect at it but at least I have a process for qualifying.

Name calling isn’t going to help anything, I expect better from you than that.

You guys have been complaining about a low close ratio, look at how much of your income producing time is being wasted, about 90% of it if you’re only closing 10%, and you’re calling *me* a fool.

By the way I just got off the phone with a prospect and I asked him if he would be comfortable giving me a “yes” or “no” answer and he said yes. I ask the prospect about the decision before I even set the appointment. 

You can’t understand anything about my sales process because you haven’t been trained or exposed to anything other than what you are doing. You are locked into your own mindset and can’t accept anything that does not line up with it.

The reason I brought up lowering my price is that almost every job we do gets done in 1 day. We just did a 45 sq 1 layer tear off with a 7:12 pitch and we got it done in 1 day.

Until you accept 100% responsibility for the results of a sales call you will never be able to improve.


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## Ed the Roofer

Qualifying is good on face value, but I also have to take on many leads that don't seem that good in the first place, but do wind up paning out, which never ceases to surprise me.

It's not me or my sales methods Jack.

During any other periods of time, I close around 52% and the only things that have changed are the material price increases and the economy. I still look just as handsome as ever, so that can't be it.

You can't objectively say that 90% of my time is running around wasted if my previous closing numbers were currently holding true. 

At that ratio, you could say that 45% of my running around time is wasted, but I am not going to be able to close them all.

Also, I think that Grumpy expressed himself very forthright in his prefacing statement, for You personally to not take the comments directly towards you, yet that is exactly how you took them. And, I am not just saying something like that in defence of Grumpy, because he can choose his own words to make his position, but it seems as if your tone get's so darned defensive, as if the point of this and other topics are pointed directly at you. They are not. 

Look at your comments yesterday, when you were quoting from Patton and someone named Dan Kennedy, when you didn't get a reply within four hours, you started castigating everyone for not replying, which you said proved your point.

It didn't seem like you were trying to make a point to increase the discussion, but rather, just posting good salesmans or Generals comments for all to see, or at least, that is the way I took your multiple posts of various quotes.

Show me in written words and actions What And How to do things to change, like your example of; "Will You Be Able To Give Me A Yes Or A No Answer Today When We Meet". 

Now, thats a good example.....It is also one that I do use, or some variation of the same. 

There are times in the intial phone conversation that I have even told people that my price will reflect our entire total system and will typically be higher than the majority of contractors and if they are just seeking a lower price to choose from, then would it be worth considering having us to come out to provide the proposal in the first place. 

Usually, that type of conversation takes place when the prospective customer has allowed us/me to engage them in a more complete dialog and probe in more depth than the typical call for an estimate.

If you know methods and tactics that have proven to work, share them, rather than tell everyone else that they suck, period.

Ed


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## Ed the Roofer

By the way, just so you comprehend the point I was making, so that you don't get the opinion that I was chastising you, I was not.

I would like to point out that you post very good and useful information and assist greatly in the furthering of topics, but your posting comes off as having a very hard and bitter tone to it on more than one occassion.

I for one am really glad that you do desire to engage in these discussions, because they make them more furtive and delve deeper because of it.

Ed


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## user182

Ed the Roofer said:


> It's not me or my sales methods Jack.


Without taking 100% responsibility for the results of a sales call we will never be able to improve those results, excuses are unacceptable if you want to be highly effective.



> Look at your comments yesterday, when you were quoting from Patton and someone named Dan Kennedy, when you didn't get a reply within four hours, you started castigating everyone for not replying, which you said proved your point.


I wasn’t referring to a post I made hours ago, I was referring to a thread that I started 9 weeks ago. The point is most people are not willing to put much effort into learning and implementing something new or beyond the ordinary, something that will help them to excel beyond being average.



> Show me in written words and actions What And How to do things to change, like your example of; "Will You Be Able To Give Me A Yes Or A No Answer Today When We Meet".
> 
> Now, thats a good example.....It is also one that I do use, or some variation of the same.
> 
> There are times in the intial phone conversation that I have even told people that my price will reflect our entire total system and will typically be higher than the majority of contractors and if they are just seeking a lower price to choose from, then would it be worth considering having us to come out to provide the proposal in the first place.
> 
> Usually, that type of conversation takes place when the prospective customer has allowed us/me to engage them in a more complete dialog and probe in more depth than the typical call for an estimate.
> 
> If you know methods and tactics that have proven to work, share them, rather than tell everyone else that they suck, period.
> 
> Ed


If I were to provide you with a script for the initial phone call what can you provide that is of equal or greater value?

One of the reasons I left that networking group was the members didn’t have anything to offer in return for my input.

I place a high value on my time as you should also. I don’t want to waste your time or mine. If I am going to be investing my time here than there has to be reciprocity.

I don’t recall telling anyone that they suck. 

I’m just sharing what I’ve learned over the years. Case in point; I’ve learned that it is always counterproductive to make excuse like “it’s the economy” or whatever.

If you or I decide to book appointments with someone that can’t buy then we are responsible for that decision.


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## Ed the Roofer

As far as reciprocity goes, if you don't think that I have paid my dues and shared, then you have not read many of my posts or topics.

Thats okay, I know different variations of phone call scripts that I choose to test out and see which ones work.

If and when I discover some key phrases that seem to click continually, then I will post them, but other than that, I try to really engage them in a full conversation to see what they are looking for as their satisfactory result of finally choosing their contractor.

The responses I try to elicit, is,"Gee, we never even considered that.....Or.....No one else even mentioned that to us.....etc..."

Because then, at least I found out a differentiation point to set myself apart from others that they will consider.

There you go, without me even intending on doing so, I demonstrated a good method of engaging and qualifying the potential customer.

Ed


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## Grumpy

Do they own or respresent the owner? Yes Ok onto question number two. Are they requesting a product or service that I offer? Yes ok onto question number three. Are they within the service area that I service? Ok onto question four. Are they willing to meet with me to discuss their options and needs? Yes, Ok qualified.


Who do you think the customer is going to call in 6 months when they are ready? The guy who took the time to explain to them their options and give them a price or the guy who blew them off saying "Call me when you're ready to give me money." I'm also not making excuses, but giving reasons things happen. Pre-qualifying is dis-qualifying. 


I'm not name calling. I am telling it like it is. Anyone who closes 90% is a liar or is disqualifying all but the sure things. I take no advice on sales from salesmen, infact I tend to do the opposite. I've met too many. Anyone who wouldn't meet with a prospect because they said "I might not be ready the night you come." is ludacris to me. I just can not comprehend the logic, unless of coarse you have 300 leads and only time to service 10 of them. 

And you know absolutely nothing of MY training or exposure. Don't assume anything, because you know what happens when you assume. If you did know, you would not be making a comment so foolish. I have numerous training tapes going back to zig ziglar, Tom Hopkins, Brian Tracy, Napoleon Hill, Dale Carnege (sp?), David Sandler. I have audio from Monroe Porter, CCN, Certainteed, and various other manufacturers. I have so many I can't think right now. I have been trained in the Home Depot at home sales method of sales and went to their 5 day 50 hour boot camp in Atlanta and I also have their training audio for windows & siding. In addition I used to Sell door to door in high school and was the top producer at the company I worked for selling Chicago Tribune subscriptions. 

Having said that, yes you are right. I use my own sales system, because nobody wants to be sold anything. I have ignored everything afore mentioned by the above authors and decided to allow my customers to tell me how they want to be sold. I choose NOT to sell because I know how to sell. 

You closers go out there, hammer the home owner and dismiss the job when they say "I'm not ready yet." and I get the job when they are ready by being kind, knowledgeable, and friendly and willing to work within their schedule instead of forcing them to work within mine. Do you want to be like everyone else or stand out as the super star? Personally me, if everyone were doing what I do now, I'd be doing the opposite of what I do now. Nothign you have told us that you are doing is original and you do not stand out from the rest of the herd of rabbid hounds.


I'm not saying my system is sure fire either, obviously it isn't. My system has its' own flaws as addmittedly yours does too. Do I lose jobs to closers? Sure, but I find typically to those who are easily manipulated and probably never would have been my customer anyways. But yes, that's an excuse right there and is my first excuse of this entire discussion. Do I lose jobs to those who under bid me? Sure but those never would have been my customer because some people just buy price... and that's a fact, not an excuse. If I get a bad vibe, I will throw one more qualifying comment into the mix and that is "What will your decideding factor be when hiring a roofer, will you pick the low bidder?" That's one of those questions I only need to ask sometimes. 



See I said not to take offense, but you did anyways. I'll leave you with this. For as great as you think you are... You are the one who wants to lower their price, not me. Think about that.


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## ROOFMAX

the no one skill a roofing contractor needs over and beyond performing quality work and customer satisfaction. is getting the right price. not getting the right price is the root of most evil in the roofing bussness. many roofing contractors do not have financial literacy. thay do not how to calculate the right price and determine what returns to expect from there investment. many contractors price their work based on the so called going rate. the going rate throughout most of the united states is 30 percent lower than the actual rate a roofing contractor needs to build a viable business, the sell price must be based on the cost to perform the work and the companys profit expectations, not on some phantom going rate. the so called going rate has been proven by many roofing contractors to be the going broke or going out of business rate. unprofitable roofing contractors that are short on leads are afraid of losing jobs often compete against themselves and drop their price to what thay think is the winning price.


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## Ed the Roofer

I have to leave for a while, because a customer who I gave a proposal to on April 8th just called and wants to go ahead with the project with whatever price increases came into play since that time.

It's not a real big one so there is no intent of boasting about it, but I sure am glad that they remembered me and my presentation from 4 1/2 months ago.

I sure hope this discussion continues, so I can catch up when I get back.

Ed


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## ROOFMAX

the profitable roofing controctor have a process for becoming the prospects roofing consultant not just a roofing contractor providing shingles. some contractors typically bid the lowest cost shingle because thay believe customer buys price and low price wins the job, the consultant provides the prospect with questions that help the prospect define 1 the scope of work 2 specifications and 3 contractor slection criteria , instead of focusing solely on price. as roofing contractors we dont know what we dont know so when it comes to pricing in many cases the blind leading the blind.:laughing:


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## Grumpy

We jumped from 3 pages down to 2 pages. Obviously some posts were removed.


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## Ed the Roofer

Grumpy said:


> We jumped from 3 pages down to 2 pages. Obviously some posts were removed.


It looks like Jack wasn't getting the "Reciprocity" that he felt he was entitled to, so he took his bat and ball and doesn't want to play with us anymore.

So, he went back to all of his posts and deleted them all, except for leaving a one liner in the original post.

That was a totally classless move on his part, in my opinion. Too bad, because I really liked the guy when I met him at a seminar a few years ago and shared a lot of my personally made marketing pieces with him, without demanding reciprocity, although that is how things should eventually work out from contractors forming alliances and each sharing their methods with each other, especially in non-competitive markets.

Ed


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## OUTLAW

Seems like Jack was just looking for some one to pat him on the back. Some one to tell him he's right. Very classless for him to remove his posts.


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## OUTLAW

Grumpy,

I think your more of the salesman than you give yourself credit for.

You said that you allow your prospects to tell you how they want to be sold. That is good salesmanship. I'm sure that when your done with presentation, you ask for the job. That is good closing. 

Lets hear it for "Grumpy the Closer" :laughing:


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## Ed the Roofer

This thread was not making sense without the point-counterpoint comments, so they have been restored.

Ed


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## Grumpy

Outlaw I do not ask for the sale at all ever. I ask the customer what they want me to do next. They will tell you if they are ready to buy with that one question. If they are not, I either didn't address what they were looking for or they simply are not ready to buy yet. In either case, I allow them to control the presentation/conversation within reason. I've no problem mailing or emailing proposals, infact most of my work is sold on the follow up, very very little is actually sold on the first sitting.


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## apehangeralfy

A lot of times lately that I think that I should qualify my leads and I get the felling that "I gonna waste my time with this one", that they buy no questions asked... and the ones that should be sure things ain't... I never pass up any call, even if I know they are price shopping I still show up and give them my best attempt. 

I was at a leak repair last week and showed up a bit early. As I walked to the door 2 roofers I've known for a while came out. I politely excused myself and stepped back so I didn't interfere. Before I got back to my truck they came out and said "You can have it", tile valley leak on an old house. They didn't even quote a price. I looked at it and quoted a bit high cause both sides had to come out and it was mop down and patty set tile and it always rips.... but I offered an alternative to the repair and for a few grand more a complete new roof. They loved the idea and I told them I could do a bubblegum repair to slow the water down and that the ceiling was already shoot to save up for a few extra weeks and get the whole thing done... then I found out it is a historic house (Bill Frances old house where NASCAR was formed) and the city's going to pay half. They are going to end up with a new roof for less than a repair could be done.

How long does it really take to show up and see for yourself instead of qualifying and going after the low hanging fruit.... I'll turn all those jobs that others don't show up on into something, if only good future leads...


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## OUTLAW

Grumpy, 

When you ask what do you want me to do next, thats closing. As a matter of fact, I like that close. I like it because now you know whats next. You have a commitment as to whats the next step. If there is no next step, you know that too. I'm gonna steal that close from you and call it my own. I'll call it the "Outlaw commit to whats next close"

Thanks Grumpy. Your quite the sales guru.


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## OUTLAW

Ape hanger alfy,

I think qualifing has its place and time. When you have more calls than you can handle is one. When they tell you that they are getting 8 estimates and want the cheapest is another.

I'm not saying that you should always cherry-pick. But I know that I've been out on estimates that my OM set up and within 5 minutes I could tell they were not for me. At this time I tell myself, "self, next time you need to call to confirm the appt. and do a little qualifing yourself". Problem is that sometimes I'm not ther to hear myself. So I leave I voice mail or I try to text.But sometimes I mad at myself so I don't listen to the voice-mail or read the text. Then I will go the chatroom/forum in my head and try to PM or something. If all else fails I send smoke signals.

sorry i got off topic- i need my meds now


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## Ed the Roofer

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I got a kick out of that.

Ed


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## Grumpy

Outlaw it's defintly a close, and it's so low key and non invasive that consumers don't realize it's a close. Having the confidence to take a back seat to the consumer's wishes goes against everything any sales guru will teach you. If the customer says to send a quote, that's what I am going to do. If they say tell us the price, I will ask "Are you ready to make a decision today?" If they say no, I am NOT going to give them a price today and I'll just send it. If they say yes they are ready, you are damned sure I'll close it. In my mind they have already committed to hiring me and the price is a formality. 

However I allow the customer to keep up their defenses, few actually say they want to hire me before hearing the price. But I always want to keep them within their comfort zone. Sure I'll remind them of their problems and how our system solves that problem, but that's the same BS everyone else is doing too. They're so confused after meeting 2 or 3 guys that they will inevitebly choose whom ever they trust the most, assuming nobody has pressured them so much they pick that guy just to make him go away. This is a sin as far as I am concerned.

Asking them to commit tonight to a yes or no is insane to me. If they are not ready tonight, which we already discussed reasons they might not be ready, then the only answer they can give is a no. I am perfectly happy hearing a "not yet."


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## Ed the Roofer

Bump.

This was becoming a pretty good discussion, so i wanted to see if anyone else had anything to add.

I noticed that "Jack" is now know as "User182".

I wonder what gives with that? I didn't think a person could change their User Name after they signed up.

Ed


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## OUTLAW

Grumpy,

I've been trying to get your goat but you won't let me!

I know how much you dislike (read hate) salesmen. High pressure is for guys that over-charge and under-deliver. The most pressure I will apply is by asking a question and then shutting up (and if that don't work I'll offer them a deal for tonight and tonight only, but first I gotta call the sales manager).:laughing:

More of my sales are called in after the fact. Every once in a while people will buy on the spot and I'm usually in shock when this happens. I like to cover objections. I find it amusing that it starts out being all kind of things and ends up being price almost every time. I will then ask them what is next, when should I call back, or is it no for sure? If its definately no, then in the words of Regis "is that your final answer?".

Any how. I'm glad you didn't get all bend out of shape when I called you a "closer" or "sales guru":laughing:


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## OUTLAW

Thing that make you go hmmmm


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## Grumpy

Ed the Roofer said:


> Bump.
> 
> This was becoming a pretty good discussion, so i wanted to see if anyone else had anything to add.
> 
> I noticed that "Jack" is now know as "User182".
> 
> I wonder what gives with that? I didn't think a person could their User Name after they signed up.
> 
> Ed


 Makes me think he deleted his account.


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## Ed the Roofer

Yeah, he was tired of dealing with the rest of us.

He went back into his account and deleted a real lot of his posts, but then all of the topics he was involved in made absolutely no sense, especially the ones that he started. I just got done restoring them all.

What a PITA that chore was to do.

I guess no one else had any information that he considered worthy of him to read anymore, so he was not going to share his secret mastery of his unique sales success.

Really, it did pizz me off, because when I met him and shared a lot of stuff with him several years ago, I didn't figure him to be a petty person like he just demonstrated.

Ed


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## Grumpy

Oh well I am sure alot of people would say the same about me. I did that at the RCS many years ago. God that placed pissed me off.


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## tcsffan

*Lowering Prices*

I'm new here, good thread with lots of great responses.

One reason that I believe lowering your price in a down economy to try and secure more jobs is NOT a good idea is you establish a new price point for doing a job.

Next year, business is doing well and the next door neighbor with the same house calls you, guess what price they're going to expect? The one you did the job for his neighbor at.

I am of the opinion that jobs are SELDOM won/lost based on price alone. We're a referral based business going on 22 years now. We don't advertise in the yellow pages because we don't really want to chase those types of leads. It's not uncommon here in the bay area to hear that someone has gotten 6-8 estimates from roofers in the yellow pages. 

Earliler this year when we were slower than normal, everyone was slower than normal. I talked to guys on the hook for hundreds of dollars monthly to the local yellow pages that were also slow. I've heard stories of guys paying $500/Month+ for email leads but aren't real good with computers. Hard for me to imagine a good win rate there but I could be wrong.

In my opinion there is no better lead than a family//neighbor/friend/colleague that you've done work for referring you and your company. 

Sorry, I got a little off topic...


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## Grumpy

Some jobs are won and lost based on price, but who wants those jobs anyways. SOme people hire the highest guy for bragging right. Some hire the lowest because theya re conditioned into thinking they are getting the best deal. Most will hire whom ever they like and trust the most... Especially if your pricing is in line. If your price is slightly higher you may have to work a little harder to get the sale, but in most cases we are selling ourselves and it comes down to them trusting us and will spend a little extra if they feel you deserve it.


I've had a very roller coaster year. I have lowered my price somewhat recently but have also taken steps to first drastically reduce my overhead before I did lower my price. As of now I am seeing the same profit margin as I was with my higher pricing. But I am also doing alot more work myself than I was before, which sucks.


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## fsu1dan

Any idea of how to get roofing contractor magazine? I went on there website and it says it is unavailable. 

Thanks,

Dan


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## fsu1dan

Adding to this topic I would like to know how you guys deal with fighting everyone else who is eating deductibles. I am in Oklahoma city and most of the homeowners know the game and are not going to pay there deductible. 

I explain to them we are local and are a higher end roofer, however we will do the roof for the insurance proceeds. Our roofs are typically a few hundred dollars more than most of the other guys and I explain we can do that b/c we get many referrals after other people see them etc...

That being said I am having to eat deductibles as the next guy will steal your job when they knock there door and offer to help them. 

Let me know your thoughts. 

Also is there anywhere else on here that talks more about insurance claims and related topics.

Nice discussion BTW.

Thanks,

Dan


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## Grumpy

Stop eating deductables? Stop chsing storms.

A storm hit here recently, I wouldn't dare dream of chasing it, and it's in my neighborhood. I live at ground zero of the storm. I've done quite a few estimates for referrals, past customers, freinds, neighbors and have told ALL of them to expect to come out of pocket if they want the work done right, that the insurance company will not be able to afford my price because they pay for a minimum code roof and I exceed minimum code. How can I eat their deductable if I am already $1-2,000 higher than insurance is willing to pay? 

People pay the premium, because I am charging the same as I would have before the storm. When most guys increased their advertising in the storm affected areas, I took mine down. I just don't want to chase low profit jobs.


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## daviddeschaine

*Sales Is About Negotiations*

*Sales Is About Negotiations *- We all want a good deal, and we complain about the higher price but we still buy the higher priced product, because we want the good quality - Roofing is an important investment to a home owner, and they need to be told that, as you are all aware the cost of materials is going up slowly.
My recommendation is keep building value, use a qualification technique in the beginning of the estimate to uncover their true needs. You will have to sell more than ever, but if needed give a discount for today's business!


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## daviddeschaine

*Well Said Grumpy .. ;-)*

*You nailed IT!* - Grumpy exactly ..;-)



Grumpy said:


> Stop eating deductibles? Stop chasing storms.
> 
> A storm hit here recently, I wouldn't dare dream of chasing it, and it's in my neighborhood. I live at ground zero of the storm. I've done quite a few estimates for referrals, past customers, freinds, neighbors and have told ALL of them to expect to come out of pocket if they want the work done right, that the insurance company will not be able to afford my price because they pay for a minimum code roof and I exceed minimum code. How can I eat their deductable if I am already $1-2,000 higher than insurance is willing to pay?
> 
> People pay the premium, because I am charging the same as I would have before the storm. When most guys increased their advertising in the storm affected areas, I took mine down. I just don't want to chase low profit jobs.


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## insuranceroofer

I work for a company that only does insurance work and most sales people for the company make more money than an average roofing company owner.

We never sell on price. We sell on something very very different. We sell on quality, but we also sell on something very very different.

It takes courage, real courage to sell this way, but it works. We put the customer on the spot. We challenge their morals. We challenge their ethics. We challenge their reputation. We challenge their honesty.

Our prices are very high, our quality is good. You can have good quality, and an okay price and go out of business. What good will the warranty be? 

I come from a very intense sales background and I never even knew of selling this way. It was extremely hard for me to do it at first, but now it is awesome. (confronting the person's morals, you can do it in different ways) Basiclly for someone to get out of being sold they are saying they don't care about doing things the right way and they are admitting to being a slime ball.

After, you sale the job, you need to secure the job. Prepare, the customer for the wolf in sheep's clothing that will be knocking on their door promising them something for nothing. etc. etc.

These techniques are used in insurance work, if you have a none insurance structured business things work differently.


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## insuranceroofer

Grumpy said:


> You never sell on price?! HAHAHAHAH all a storm chaser sells on is price. Let's see? A FREE ROOF.
> 
> 
> It doesn't take any courage to ring someone's door bell and say "Hi, want a free roof?". Sir, you are the wolf.


I'm sorry but thats not true. ALL STORM CHASERS ARE NOT THE SAME, NOT ALL STORM CHASERS EAT DEDUCTIBLES. Only an idiot would give someone a free roof, you don't make any decent money if you offer a free roof. I've worked for several different storm chasing companies that don't give free roofs or rebates or discounts or anything like that.

You know what this really pisses me off you saying all storm chasers eat deducitibles and give people free roofs. I despise people that give free roofs, they make my puke. If it were possible I would put them all in jail. Anyone who eats deductibles and gives a free roof is an idiot, they aren't making any real money, because they are giving away most of their profit. If they are making money they are ripping off the roof installers or supply company. I'd like to personally take a bat and beat the crap out of them, they give roofers a bad name.

I would rather not deal with insurance companies, but if I want to make any real money then its neccessary. If other roofers valued their service more and charged better prices, then I wouldn't even mess with insurance work, it takes alot more work.

The problem is you get roofing companies who are happy making 30,000 a year or 50,000 or 80,000 a year. When in reality if they valued what they do more they would make alot more and better serve their families and customers. Roofing is a hard, tough and extremely risky business, if you are not charging the right prices then you're nuts.


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## insuranceroofer

Grumpy said:


> I don't own this forum and have no right to send youa way, but I promise if I had the power I would ban you from the forum and lock your IP address stricly because of your name. Storm chasers get no respect, nor do they deserve any.
> 
> You don't need to be a storm chasing scum bag to be profitable. We do agree that too many roofing companies operate for little to no profit, but just because a company chooses to not chase storms doesn't mean they are not profitable.
> 
> Please I beg you go away. I have to watch you scum bag storm chasers stealing work in my own back yard, the last thing I want to do is listen to your bull crap fall from your mouth in a place I come to relax and converse.


If you had me working for you they would rarely be able to steal customers away from you. Yes, there are profitable roofing companies that are not storm chasers, but I recommend trying it so you know how to keep your jobs from being stolen.


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## buildpinnacle

What a path to great referrals.....tell your potential client he's a slimeball.


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## insuranceroofer

buildpinnacle said:


> What a path to great referrals.....tell your potential client he's a slimeball.


In some areas of the country there are roofing companies that primarily get their business by looking for roofing signs in people's yards and then knock on the door and find out what the other roofing company is doing for the HO and then give them a lower price or something "free". It is very effective and its easy, the only problem is it can backfire, because another roofing company can do the same to them just for spite.

Depending on the area of the country I'm working, I will change what I say. Seriously, I have seen it get so bad that companies are offering huge discounts and companies in an area are only averaging 500 profit per job if that. (Not even taking into account potential warranty expenses down the road)

If you've ever had several hundred dollars taken from you in one storm you would understand. Working in unlicensed states in my experience has been the worse.

If you do insurance work and you give discounts, that can trigger a landslide. One company gives a 500 dollar discount the other a 1,000 and then another gives even more. Then some companies trying to compete, bid the jobs too low and the installers and roofing supply company are left without getting paid. Depending on the area it can be a nasty cycle and it can potentially add to the fear and bad reputation that roofing in general has with many people. 

I have sold in many areas where the competition is mostly well behaved, but when you're in an area notorious for shady sales practices you have to make changes or you will lose your shirt.

If no one gave discounts doing insurance work then everyone would make more. Also, if I were an insurance company and found out about all the discounts I wouldn't be happy. 

I'd say to XYZ roofing company "I see that you can afford to give $500 in discounts, from now on I will give you $500 less per each job, because its obvious that your happy with that profit."


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