# What's Changed?



## tinner666 (Oct 28, 2008)

In another thread, both Grumpy and I commented on how some things were being ommitted from material specs.

For instance, at a TPO class I took, I 'learned' how to take a single piece of TPO and go around a 'box' penetration. Weld it etc, then put on seperate corner pieces.

I asked " Why not put a term piece on front, then the sides, then the back pan." We don't teach that anymore because nobody will take the time to do that. I asked if it was acceptable. Answer "Yes! It's the better way and fully acceptable and covered by our warranty." 

Just one of many mysteries. Any others? I won't go into the fallacy of relying soley on I&W on lo-slopes yet. :laughing:
(But, next time you get a chance, look closely, from the gable end, at the mild hump created with 3-tabs at the headlap.)


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

It's all about making thigns idiot proof. I guess they think of us as idiots, and to be honest many roofers I know aren't the brightest. Most roofing failures are workmanship, if the same failure is occuring repeatedly someone needs to figure out why and re-eingineer that detail. As you said something may be better, but better usually means harder to do. 

It's like the difference between a shingler and a roofer. A shingler can probably lay up roof real fast, but hand him some tin snips and ask him to do flashings and I'll tell you what you are going to get. You're going to get some straight piece of metal slapped up against the wall and caulked at the top. Totally the wrong way to do anything. 

A roofer will step the metal with the mortar joint and bent a reglet at the top. At very least he may raggle a straight line and bend a reglet at the top, still acceptable so long as the metal penetrates into the masonry wall. 

Same thing goes for modified. I had hired one guy who was a real good installer, his roof looked great when he was done and even had about 1' of standing water on it due to one of his mistakes by not blocking the drain when tearing off. Even though his roof looks perfect now, it was a long road getting there wrought with errors. Zero protection, forgetting a night seal one night, really bad cleanup. He might be a great installer, but as a roofer he fails IMO since all those things are part of the roofing job too. He's just an accident waiting to happen, and I won't have it on my watch. 

I've noticed the mild hump too BTW, but have never had a customer complain so I am not worried, and if they do complain all I need do is show them the installation instructions and explain I followed those instructions exactly. If they still complain I explain I will initiate a warranty claim with the manufacturer on their behalf, but it's not my fault and they need to deal with the manufacturer. That's goign back to the other thread why I say I always do it the way the manufacturer says to do it. CYA.


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## tomstruble (Jan 19, 2009)

iam guilty of cutting in a straight line and laying the flashing in on my chimney flashing i just seems to me the less corners the better.but stepping it looks much more traditional


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## Ed the Roofer (Sep 15, 2008)

I install many straight flashings on brick chimneys, but the Devil is still in the details on how it is applied.

If someone Only relies on the top exterior caulking, then the seal Will Fail. But, if caulked on the back side of the sheet metal first, so that a compression seal is created, then anchored with either lead tap-ins or tapcons, Then caulked at the top, it will not fail. 

I have seen too many vertical seams on stepped counter flashings that allowed the nearby roof decking plank boards or plywood soak up wind blown rain, creating substantial damage. I have never seen anyone else back-caulk the vertical seams, so when I install a stepped counter flashing, that is an additional step I utilize.

Ed


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## Ed the Roofer (Sep 15, 2008)

Also, with the TPO curb flashings, why would you want 4 separate flashing pieces that still need the corners to be welded anyways? You just added 3 additional vertical seams to weld.

On my own curb flashings, if it is not a prefab, I start at the middle of the low side of the curb, stapling it to the wood nailer that also has a solid continuous bead of caulking between the flashing and the wood nailer, then follow around the side and the top and then the other side and then finally overlap the beginning of the flashing at the center of the low side.

Then, I install the prescribed termination bar with hex head screws into the wood nailer and also caulk the top edge of the termination bar, trying to have the top of the t-bar as high and tucked under the steel flange of the curb as much as possible.

Ed


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Also, with the TPO curb flashings, why would you want 4 separate flashing pieces that still need the corners to be welded anyways? You just added 3 additional vertical seams to weld.
> 
> Ed


I had that very same conversation with one of my guys on our last job. He always has to do things his way and we couldn't explain to him that his way is a waste of time. He's trying to use a modified spec on TPO, essentially what it was... So we kicked him off the boxes ad put him on the term bar on the walls. 

Don't want to listen? Get knocked down to the grunt work and don't learn anything new.


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## tomstruble (Jan 19, 2009)

is that why i always do grunt work??


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## tinner666 (Oct 28, 2008)

"we couldn't explain to him that his way is a waste of time." How could it be a waste of time to do it right? I always add 1 1/2 hours labor per box. It increases the profit margin.

As for wrapping, or not wrapping, I go either way according to circumstance. Each object is treated as I get to it, according to how I feel it should be approached, even on same job.


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## tinner666 (Oct 28, 2008)

" I have never seen anyone else back-caulk the vertical seams, so when I install a stepped counter flashing, that is an additional step I utilize." 
I do. I step my counter 99 1/2% of the time. I can't on some.


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## tinner666 (Oct 28, 2008)

I was talking to a GAF rep recently. I was planning ajob with Elks. He said the roof would leak without felt. I asked if he could recommend another brand product since their's was so porous. He back pedaled and said GAF had good shingles. 

Had another talk with another one about Deck Armor under metal. She said the roof would leak if the metal cut the underlay. I asked how. She said all roofs leaked. :whistling:

Same about use under slate. 


Wonder when underlay changed from something to keep the house dry until the roof went on, to 'The felt is responsible for keeping the house dry after the roof goes on? :laughing::laughing:


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