# Replace the step flashing?



## hender999

Hi folks,

I used to roof many years ago - mainly cedar, and mainly new construction. But now I'm faced with needing a new roof on my own house. My question is regarding replacing the step flashings.

I have 2 dormers that are sided with aluminum. The roof was done before the siding and the siding goes right to the roof. I see many roofs going up around me and I don't think they are replacing the step flashing. I'd like to be able to wrap the wall of the dormer with i/w about 6-8" up and replace the flashing, but I'm thinking to do that I would need to remove the siding, and we all know that siding is installed upward, so I would need to remove a considerable amount of siding.

What are you thoughts regarding replacing/reusing the flashing? Any hints/tips would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance 

Scott


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## Grumpy

If you're not repalcing the flashing, you're not repalcing the roof. You are only replacing the shingles. As an ex roofer you know the importance of flashings, therefore they should always be replaced when ever possible.

Most roofers I have witnessed don't care about what's right, they only care about fast and easy, in and out and get paid. It's a sad statement of our industry but I compete against it eery day and often feel I am losing the battle. 

You will need to remove the siding, but if it is aluminum it's old and should be repalced with something better looking anyways. Use this as an opportunity to install some very high end siding on the dormers and really add some curb appeal and possibly property value. Dormers are small anyways so the added cost isn't really that much. If it's vinyl however and you just called it aluminum because that's what most people call it still, it can be easily removed and re-installed. Aluminum can't be easily reinstalled it'll be all beat up.

Pre-flashing with ice shield is a great idea and what we do on all our sloped roofers. It's very cheap insurance to pre-flash. Obviously you want to install the flashing properly so the pre-flash isn't necessary, however the two together mean the roof should last as long as its' intended life cycle may be.

If you're gonna do it, do it right. Repalce all the flashings and beef up the ventilation.


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## hender999

Thanks for the reply. 

As I mentioned earlier, my experience has been primarily new construction, and wasn't sure if it was acceptatable to reuse them.

And yes, I believe it is vinyl. I'll be removing it and installing new SF, along with 6-8" of I/W up the dormer wall. 

Going to price new siding as well.

Thanks again!!


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## mindfield

I agree with you whole heartedly, Grump. I am so tired of so-called roofers whgo insist that faster is better even at the expense of quality workmanship... and as for the flashing? sometimes it takes a bit more work than we'd like, but the end result is always worth it!
:thumbup:


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## vtroofing

Yes it is a better way but is it really part of your standard roof package? Again I agree absolutely it is the best way slipping in a few pieces in as needed is probable. 

Maybe you guys do but we don't and I would say very, very few actually do replace all step flashing alongside or under wall siding. 

If by chance we are siding then absolutely. Around chimneys absolutely and every time but not along walls. Never ever have I received a call back or looked at a leak repair that not replacing step flashing was the culprit. 

In fact I cannot remember tearing off a roof alongside step flashing abutting walls and seeing any type water/ leak paths.


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## Grumpy

My proposal reads "replace all flashing (as possible) using.... "

Ok so what's not possible? If someone nailed the step flashing to the wall under the siding there is then no way of removing the baby tins unless the siding can be removed. If it's vinyl we will remove and reinstall. If it's aluminum or wood well there isn't much that can be done.


Furthermore my proposal read "install ice shield at gutter lines, valleys and pre flash in all problem areas such as skylights, pipes and where the roof meets the wall... " it's kind of pointless to install ice shield in these problem areas if you are not wraping the pipe or penetration. We will normally wrap 4" up the vertical surface (wall).


This Saturday we did a little 3 square job. There was 28' of stepped raggled counter flashing. It took me 4 hours to complete the flashing including grinding the mortar joint. I was $1,000 higher than the next low bidder. He was going to install a straight piece of flashing, the other bidder was going to reuse the flashing. The customer wanted it done right and paid the premium to us to do it.


So your question was "is it part of our standard package?" yes all flashings are marked into each and every job.


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## vtroofing

Thanks for being honest Grumpy. I was hanging out there for awhile LOL.


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## larryb

Grumpy said:


> If you're not repalcing the flashing, you're not repalcing the roof. You are only replacing the shingles. As an ex roofer you know the importance of flashings, therefore they should always be replaced when ever possible.
> 
> Most roofers I have witnessed don't care about what's right, they only care about fast and easy, in and out and get paid. It's a sad statement of our industry but I compete against it eery day and often feel I am losing the battle.
> 
> You will need to remove the siding, but if it is aluminum it's old and should be repalced with something better looking anyways. Use this as an opportunity to install some very high end siding on the dormers and really add some curb appeal and possibly property value. Dormers are small anyways so the added cost isn't really that much. If it's vinyl however and you just called it aluminum because that's what most people call it still, it can be easily removed and re-installed. Aluminum can't be easily reinstalled it'll be all beat up.
> 
> Pre-flashing with ice shield is a great idea and what we do on all our sloped roofers. It's very cheap insurance to pre-flash. Obviously you want to install the flashing properly so the pre-flash isn't necessary, however the two together mean the roof should last as long as its' intended life cycle may be.
> 
> If you're gonna do it, do it right. Repalce all the flashings and beef up the ventilation.


 
:yes:


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## rooftrooper 1

sounds like grumpys the man


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## Grumpy

rooftrooper 1 said:


> sounds like grumpys the man


 In my own mind, Yes! 

In reality? Many would disagree


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## Aaron

We just did a repair for a client who had their roofing re-done, but had a consistent leak no one could stop.

It's a tri-level with a design flaw that holds snow in one corner against the vinyl siding. One guy previously had wedged some valley tin up under the J channel.

We pulled all of that siding, ran ice & water up the wall sheathing.

That's the challenge, really, for selling the job well. If I had done the original bid on that house and told the customer that as part of their "roofing" job I was pulling off the siding, would they have gone for it then? Hard to say.


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## Grumpy

Aaron said:


> That's the challenge, really, for selling the job well. If I had done the original bid on that house and told the customer that as part of their "roofing" job I was pulling off the siding, would they have gone for it then? Hard to say.


 Absolutely right. And you would have been what, maybe $300 more vs not wrapping the walls? But what was the repair, $900? Alot of people make decisions based on price, but it often costs them more in the long run as this post is proof. 

Every home owner thinking of buying a roof should read these words. 


For me personally I've thought about ways to give customers options. "Mrs. Customer what we can do, what I'd liek to do, is remove the siding and wrap the walls with ice shield. It's not code so we don't have to but it's a good idea. What would you like to do?" BUT here is the reason I refuse to make those concessions: "Your honor, I told Mrs. Customer that we could wrap the walls with ice shield when I first met with her but she declined to pay the extra $300. When she called about her leak, I reminded her that she declined to have the walls wrapped so I would have to charge her $900 for the repair, but she thought I should fix it for free." If you don't have it documented you might be ok, but if not you are placing it in the hands of the judge.

That is why I always do what's right for the building. Yeah it costs me jobs, but if I KNOW something is going to be a problem, I'd rather do it right or walk away from it than have it turn into MY problem later on.


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## tinner666

"Every home owner thinking of buying a roof should read these words."

Are you kiding me??? That's where and how I earn my living. I get $1,200. to $4,500. for those corners alone. So shut your mouth about trying to put me under!


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## tinner666

Aaron said:


> We just did a repair for a client who had their roofing re-done, but had a consistent leak no one could stop.
> 
> It's a tri-level with a design flaw that holds snow in one corner against the vinyl siding. One guy previously had wedged some valley tin up under the J channel.
> 
> We pulled all of that siding, ran ice & water up the wall sheathing.
> 
> That's the challenge, really, for selling the job well. If I had done the original bid on that house and told the customer that as part of their "roofing" job I was pulling off the siding, would they have gone for it then? Hard to say.


 Was it anything like this one? http://www.roofingtalk.com/f8/i-forget-489/


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## tinner666

BTW....."That's the challenge, really, for selling the job well. If I had done the original bid on that house and told the customer that as part of their "roofing" job I was pulling off the siding, would they have gone for it then? Hard to say."

The thing is, here in Va., it's against rules/law/ or whatever to knowlingly build or roof anything wrong. State Corp. Commission and Board of Contractors both can and will come after you.
For my own peace of mind more than that though, I only bid jobs with one option in regards to functionability of the roof system.


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## Grumpy

tinner666 said:


> "Every home owner thinking of buying a roof should read these words."
> 
> Are you kiding me??? That's where and how I earn my living. I get $1,200. to $4,500. for those corners alone. So shut your mouth about trying to put me under!


 Yeah but you like doing the repairs and we like doing the new roofs. You're right, if people made better decisions about who they hire you'd be out of work, or have to do full roofs too.


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## Grumpy

tinner666 said:


> BTW....."That's the challenge, really, for selling the job well. If I had done the original bid on that house and told the customer that as part of their "roofing" job I was pulling off the siding, would they have gone for it then? Hard to say."
> 
> The thing is, here in Va., it's against rules/law/ or whatever to knowlingly build or roof anything wrong. State Corp. Commission and Board of Contractors both can and will come after you.
> For my own peace of mind more than that though, I only bid jobs with one option in regards to functionability of the roof system.


Is it really "wrong" to not pre flash the wall with ice shield? It's poor roofing practice in my opinion, but code says nothing about it. 

I'm just playing devil's advocate. Who's to say what is right and what is wrong? Building Code. Correct? If code says nothing about ice shield along the wall, then it's not technically "wrong" to skip. One could argue it's the siding leaking, not the roof thus not the roofer's fault. Get my point?


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## tinner666

I know Grumpy. I forget the exact wording, but the corner can be fixed with or without I&W probably, so code doesn't necessarily come into play. The wording had something to do with purposely neglecting to roof or flash correctly. 
The details are foggy in my miond, but I spent a 1/2 day over there discussing this. They only act on complaints but they do so FAST here. I turn reports in to them and the HO on new roofs and give a quote to make the repairs. They give the HO a check and go after the miscreants to get their money back. They even pull licenses too.
I guess that makes me an insurance worker of sorts.


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## tinner666

Oh, the only ones I have to argue pricing over with is the Co that did the screwup in the first place. If I have to go back to the site, I assess another fee for the return trip too.


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## Aaron

tinner666 said:


> Was it anything like this one? http://www.roofingtalk.com/f8/i-forget-489/


No, not like that, but I do really like in your pictures how the valley terminates in the siding. What great design!:laughing:


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## Aaron

*So on my bid yesterday*

I won the job because, in response to his question about correct flashing, I recommended removing and re-installing the aluminum siding of the back dormer, and replacing the cedar on the two front dog house dormers.

I got more work out of it than if I had just pretended not to know about the siding and flashing, too.


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## ottawaroofing

*Ottawa Roof Repair*

it is very easy to tare the siding and re-install it. You dont need to remove all the siding to replace step flashing. If its a metal or aluminum siding you may find it more difficult. Vinyl siding is more flexible and you dont need to worry about putting a dent in it.
I do alot of roof and siding repairs in Ottawa. Most of the time when the roof was being replaced they pried the flashing so hard that the j-trim came lose and the siding came apart eventually.
http://www.ottawaroofing.net


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## vtroofing

ottawaroofing said:


> it is very easy to tare the siding and re-install it. You dont need to remove all the siding to replace step flashing. If its a metal or aluminum siding you may find it more difficult. Vinyl siding is more flexible and you dont need to worry about putting a dent in it.
> I do alot of roof and siding repairs in Ottawa. Most of the time when the roof was being replaced they pried the flashing so hard that the j-trim came lose and the siding came apart eventually.
> http://www.ottawaroofing.net


Checked out the website, my question is the second photo down on the right- asphalt shingles stepped----is that how its done in Ottowa? Looks GREAT!


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## ottawaroofing

*Ottawa Roofers*

If you staright blast the shingles you can see the joints where the shingles meet but if you step it, it will blend in. Especially if you are installing *architectural* or *3tap* *singles*. If you look at the roof from the street you dont want to see rows. What you see from the pic is a reverse step. Instead of going over the next sheet, you go under.


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