# Longevity of TPO



## 03demax

How good is the Versico TPO and others???


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## 1985gt

Depends, how good was it installed. GAF's new extreme TPO you can get a 35 year warranty. As with anything its the install that counts.


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## Grumpy

Versico/Carlisle is a good product. As for TPO we prefer the Versico over the Genflex/Firestone. However prefer the Genflex EPDM over the Versico. Both are fine products and have system ratings up to 20 years. I even think Versico has a 30 year system rating.


Personally, the way I look at it. If you want a flat roof to last 20 years or longer, consider PVC. if you want a 10-15 year roof, TPO is the best value. That's not to say TPO won't last 20 years, but there have been some issues with the original TPO, as with any generation 1 product there are always issues. For this reason, the new and improved TPO on the market, while definetly better, hasn't had 30 years to prove it's performance. But PVC has. PVC is more expensive than TPO but generally installs the same. learn more about your flat roofing options.


FWIW Genflex is now offering a Lifetime residential warranty so once I found that out Genflex is my go to membrane for all residential. 


Like GT said, the install is everything. This is true on all roofs, but so much more imperative on low slope roofing. The installer matters more than the material.


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## 1985gt

We generally use Versico for everything. No experiance with firestone single ply products so I can not comment. We just got genflex cert back after not installing it for years. I had no idea that anyone of them would warranty and res install. As far as EPDM most manufactures have a 25 and 30 year warranty with the 75 mil reinforced or the 90 mil respectively. TPO IIRC is 25 for Versico, 30 and 35 for GAF. Unsure on others.

PVC is a great product, just prepare to open your wallet. The TPO now is alot better but then again time will tell, lab tests only do so much. EPDM is constantly improving and is a "base" system.

Install, climate, roof penetrations and system type will all play a factor in how long any roof system will last.


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## SinglePlyGuy

We have really backed off on promoting TPO as we are still seeing some major material failures on roofs installed within the past few years.

I don't really put much into the manufacturer warranty's. It's obviously an important component and we won't do a project without providing one, but at the end of the day if I can push a customer from TPO to PVC I feel a lot better about it- no matter how long the warranty is for.

Like anything new, there will be growing pains- TPO is no different. It has been around now for almost 15 years but in "roofing time" that is still a baby. We have worked with TPO since the first generation products hit the market, and even assisted in testing and trials with it for some of the major manufacturers.

Formulations are still changing, thousands of squares are being replaced on the manufacturers dime every year- and thousands more should be but aren't thanks to the fine print.

While choosing the right installer is extremely important- it pains me to say that it is not the end-all. The product needs to be stable and perform as it was intended- not only after, but more importabtly- *DURING* the install. Even the best installer cannot make up for flaws in formulation.

As with any product, you get what you pay for. TPO is a commodity and priced as such. If a customer demands TPO we will of course install it for them, after providing them with enough information so that we are confident that they have made an educated decision and know what they are getting.


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## Grumpy

What I bagen doing is specing a base 15 year TPO and giving an option to upgrade to a 20 year pvc. Suprisingly several customers have taken me up on the offer.

I do it this way to compete against the guys offering cheap. i think it builds the value and shows the customer WHY the premium system is more expensive.


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## 1985gt

SinglePlyGuy said:


> We have really backed off on promoting TPO as we are still seeing some major material failures on roofs installed within the past few years.


What kind of failures have you been seeing. Sheet seperation? Degeneration? What manufacture do you normally install? Sheet thickness? Attachment? You can PM me if you want. TPO is really starting to pick up in our area, and PVC is making a come back here and there. We are starting to promote it adn an upgrade to EPDM, and most places wont even think about PVC (cost). I know they were having problems with the sheet breaking down when installed next to a building with windows that would reflect the sun down to the lower building, and some solor panel problems as well. We have yet to see any problems with the TPO its self in the past 5-10 years or so.


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## SinglePlyGuy

The majority of the problems we are seeing is material breakdown from the topside, down to and exposing the scrim. 

Most of the projects in question were installed within the last 10 years in both 45 and 60 mil membranes. All systems were mech attached in these cases.

At this point I can say with certainty that at least 1,000,000 sq ft has already been replaced by the manufacturer in our area (northern nj). Some not much more than 5 years old.

I won't (can't) get into particular manufacturers but it is not just one.

Rather than looking purely at "today's cost" you should look at "lifecycle cost" with your customers. There is a lot of data out there to support/dispute each system over the lifespan of the roof. A less expensive roof today usually ends up costing quite a bit more down the road.

Throwing solar into the mix is going to make an ever bigger mess of things down the road. The sheer amount of TPO that is being installed under solar arrays is staggering. When the solar needs to operate for 15-20 years and the roof needs to replaced halfway through- this is going to create quite a few problems in the finance department when the solar needs to get shut down.


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## Grumpy

Last month I got 4 people ask for PVC. They wanted the best. When they got their price they all asked "what about this pvc stuff?" LOL having said that I have right now 2 TPO jobs on the books, we just finishd a TPO job today and have 1 pvc job on the books.


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## SinglePlyGuy

Is there that much of a price difference between TPO and PVC where you guys are?

.05-.10/sq.ft. at the most?

Obviously it adds up on the bigger jobs but on a "typical" job of a few hundred squares you're only talking a few thousand dollars.

I understand that a few thousand can be the difference between winning or losing these days but I am finding building owners in general looking for more long-term value these days, rather than a quick fix.

When you put it all on the table, the money "saved" by going with TPO pales in comparison to the benefits provided by PVC.

Maybe its just me


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## 1985gt

Funny thing after saying I have never seen a TPO sheet break down like that I went and looked at one yesterday shorty after replying. 8 year old roof I wont say brand publicly either. The sheet was breaking down right at the seams. bottom sheet. Called the local rep and they explained they have had the problem before just go through the proper channels.

As far as price difference its alot more then .05-.10 a sf. Not sure why that is I would like to know what grumpy's difference is because we are not that far from eachother. At .05-.10 no there is no real difference but at my prices there is a much larger difference.

Again this area use to be mostly EPDM with a BUR option, now its EPDM with a TPO option. 

I agree on life cycle cost but this area they are more the here and now.


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## Grumpy

Just got prices today (per square)...

I'll put it this way. I am paying $21 more a square fot PVC than I am for TPO and I am paying $10 more a square for TPO than I am for EPDM. This is for Versico. BTW that's just membrane everything PVC costs more including BA. 

I priced a job yesterday MA TPO 45 vs FA PVC 60 and on a 1,200 sq ft job plus walls the price difference was $2,000.


What brand are you pricing, Single Ply Guy? Do you buy direct or through distributorship?


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## 1985gt

Plus you have to figure in extra seams and accesory prices. double the seams adds up pretty fast.


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## SinglePlyGuy

I buy both direct and through distribution depending on the product.

For reference a .060 TPO sheet will generally run .50 - .55/sq.ft. and
PVC .58-.65/sq.ft.

I think I will refrain from mentioning specific manufacturers...wouldn't want to ruffle any feathers with my reps 

Also keep in mind, heat weld is pretty much all we do - we buy a lot of it.

*Called the local rep and they explained they have had the problem before just go through the proper channels.*

That may be the understatement of the year - you will hear more and more about it. Also do not be suprised if you see a few major retailers get together and go after some of the TPO manufacturers.......

Hypalon Part 2 incoming.....


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## 1985gt

SinglePlyGuy said:


> I buy both direct and through distribution depending on the product.
> 
> For reference a .060 TPO sheet will generally run .50 - .55/sq.ft. and
> PVC .58-.65/sq.ft.
> 
> I think I will refrain from mentioning specific manufacturers...wouldn't want to ruffle any feathers with my reps
> 
> Also keep in mind, heat weld is pretty much all we do - we buy a lot of it.
> 
> *Called the local rep and they explained they have had the problem before just go through the proper channels.*
> 
> That may be the understatement of the year - you will hear more and more about it. Also do not be suprised if you see a few major retailers get together and go after some of the TPO manufacturers.......
> 
> Hypalon Part 2 incoming.....


Yeah your getting a little bit better price there lol


Hope its not hypalon part 2


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## Grumpy

LOL like your reps know who "SinglePlyGuy" is.

Ok I did have my prices in, but edited them out. Here goes..

60 epdm $49
60 tpo $58
60 pvc $81


I'd REALLY like to know which pvc you are getting for $65. If I was getting pvc for $65, I wouldn't bother specing TPO. If it's durolast, I'm not interested


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## SinglePlyGuy

You couldn't pay me to install Durolast


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## 1985gt

Grumpy were pretty close to the same price although we are a bit lower, no where near what singleplyguy pays. I going to have to venture it has to do with area and amounts put on each year.


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## Grumpy

I'm lower too 1985. These are the next price increases prices. When my supplier's stock runs out this is what I'll be paying. So I price my jobs at the higher prices then give the customer a discount if they sign up before X date.  

Volume could have something to do with it as well. We don't move alot of product. Maybe 1,000 squares a year max, spread out amongst two or three vendors.


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## 1985gt

Yeah I was refering on what are prices will be come sept. The price increases are getting out of hand. Single ply products have went up what and avg of 30% across the board?


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## kinseydallas

03demax said:


> How good is the Versico TPO and others???


Depends on the thickness and the contractor who puts it on ?.
Typically the membrane loses about 1-2 mils per year from the top
surface due to erosion/wear and tear.

Any ponding or bird baths causes it to dis-color. Should be inspected and cleaned every year. Most common installation is 60 mil thickness. We don't recommend 45 mil, we leave that to the cheap O's.
Allstate Roof Consultants

http://www.allstateroofconsultants.com

Dallas Texas


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## RooferJim

Whats wrong with Duro-Last guys ? They have treated us pretty good even given us good leads. BTW they are now coming out with 10' roll goods. We might have to install a GAF-TPO coming up because there the only one who make a blue membrane. I personally think all TPOs will not last as long as a PVC or EPDM roof.


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## Grumpy

Jim, all the durolast roofs I have seen were the complete worst pieces of crap you could imagine. I've never seen a durlast roof and said to myself "this thing looks pretty good". Now that's not durolast's fault, but they also shouldn't sign up every contractor with a ladder and call them certified. The mess these hack contractors leave behind gives the manufacturer a bad name. That's not something I want to be associated with, exactly why I stopped promoting modified as well. It's not always about the product, sometimes it's about the perception in the market place. 

One roof ALL the seams were installed backwards. The customer complained to Durolast the rep said to the customer "The roof is seamless." What? I could have put a team of apprentices on this roof and it'd have looked better. 

I've heard horror stories, and ead countless posts on the internet about building owners where durolast wouldn't honor the warranty. The first time I read it I dismissed and said "there are two sides to every argument", the 2nd time I said "well they have huge volume and it's hard to please everyone." but after reading the complaints for years, it starts to stick in the back of your brains. 


As for the marketing support and leads, Durolast has really got that locked hands down and I have considered joining up JUST for that. If they scratch my back I'll scratch theirs. I think the other manufacturers should really take note and follow suite. When I asked Genflex about marketing support, they said "We'll give you free brochures and list you on our website." I've gotten one lead from the genflex website and free brochures, gee thanks.


But the whole prefab roof concept is lost on me. Just give me the rolls and I'll fab it myself. You say now they are coming out with 10' rolls? Well that's a good thing and *maybe* worth another look. 


That's just my opinion.


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## kinseydallas

RooferJim said:


> Whats wrong with Duro-Last guys ? They have treated us pretty good even given us good leads. BTW they are now coming out with 10' roll goods. We might have to install a GAF-TPO coming up because there the only one who make a blue membrane. I personally think all TPOs will not last as long as a PVC or EPDM roof.


I have personally used Durolast, and agree that PVC's seem to have more longevity than TPO's. I actually haven't seen too many bad applications of Durolast since they inspect every roof if it gets a warranty. The bad part is if the order is missing any components, you can not drive to Durolast and pick up. They don't have any distributors.


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## 1985gt

Ive never actually seen a duro last roof that looked good. The membrane is too thin, very shotty installs. Now im sure there are good D/l installers but they dont seem to be in our area.

Also most manufactures will make TPO in any color you want. As long as you buy enough of it from them. Im not sure what the min is. We did a gray one, it was a stock color though. Was kind of nice for the guys not to be blinded the whole day.


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## 03demax

If you dont mind PMing me the names of the failing TPO's. Thanks!!


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## 1985gt

The one I know of switched manufactures of their sheet.


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## Pie in the Sky

Wow, What a great thread! I agree with a lot of you and have read thoughts I have thought all along and been afraid to say. :thumbup:
Consulting I have seen a lot of TPO failures. I have also seen thousands of Squares installed as an Observer on large box stores, with that 10 year mark rapidly approaching. 
Why is TPO so dimensionally unstable? I saw a roof go on a box store, in the middle of the winter -20 degrees and SNOWING (Montana), had the manufacturer tell me "Their trying to Broom the Snow off" and then they offer a 10 year warranty with wrinkles in the membrane 3-4-inches tall. Why is that acceptable. I wouldn’t accept it. My client didn’t pay for a new roof with wet insulation and a wrinkled membrane. I basically said, "if you show me some of your advertising literature with a roof membrane that is wrinkled like that, I will accept the roof on behalf of my client" They said "give it a year, it’ll flatten out. Really? If those wrinkle flatten out you have a serious dimensional stability issue with your product. They did end up “making it right” but only after I instructed a 500 person firm not to accept membranes by this manufacturer. 

When I worked for an architecture firm, it was company policy not to specify TPO. I’m not saying they didn’t go on when it was client driven, But I spent hours educating our clients of the History (as brief as it is) of TPO. I helped them understand life cycle costing and how the membrane isn’t where most of the cost of a roof installation comes from.

As far as PVC's, I have the ones I like and they have some history. Formulations are consistent. How popular are KEE sheets in your guys parts of the country??? You got to admit, if puncture resistance is your thing, KEE has it down. At least the main manufacturer does. I’ve also heard contractors like the way it welds.


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## 1985gt

Pie in the Sky said:


> Wow, What a great thread! I agree with a lot of you and have read thoughts I have thought all along and been afraid to say. :thumbup:
> Consulting I have seen a lot of TPO failures. I have also seen thousands of Squares installed as an Observer on large box stores, with that 10 year mark rapidly approaching.
> Why is TPO so dimensionally unstable? I saw a roof go on a box store, in the middle of the winter -20 degrees and SNOWING (Montana), had the manufacturer tell me "Their trying to Broom the Snow off" and then they offer a 10 year warranty with wrinkles in the membrane 3-4-inches tall. Why is that acceptable. I wouldn’t accept it. My client didn’t pay for a new roof with wet insulation and a wrinkled membrane. I basically said, "if you show me some of your advertising literature with a roof membrane that is wrinkled like that, I will accept the roof on behalf of my client" They said "give it a year, it’ll flatten out. Really? If those wrinkle flatten out you have a serious dimensional stability issue with your product. They did end up “making it right” but only after I instructed a 500 person firm not to accept membranes by this manufacturer.
> 
> When I worked for an architecture firm, it was company policy not to specify TPO. I’m not saying they didn’t go on when it was client driven, But I spent hours educating our clients of the History (as brief as it is) of TPO. I helped them understand life cycle costing and how the membrane isn’t where most of the cost of a roof installation comes from.
> 
> As far as PVC's, I have the ones I like and they have some history. Formulations are consistent. How popular are KEE sheets in your guys parts of the country??? You got to admit, if puncture resistance is your thing, KEE has it down. At least the main manufacturer does. I’ve also heard contractors like the way it welds.


TPO like any other single ply there are good and bad sheets, also manufactures. I really think TPO is a good mid point between EPDM and PVC. Although I really do like EPDM, TPO offers the added security of heat welded seams.

As far as 3-4 in high wrinkles, those will never come out of any sheet. EPDM is probably the most forgiving in that aspect you can get minor wrinkles and work them out and of course the a day/night cycle will help. TPO and PVC's not so much, the fabric between the layers will not allow the sheet to do this. To be honest when I was running crews and working with the products you really had to try and get a wrinkle with TPO or PVC. The fabric makes the sheet stiff and it rolls out nicely. 


We have limited experience with PVC. It is a very good product, but I can not say I have any experience with KEE sheets.


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## Pie in the Sky

What manufacturer are you talking as far as TPO's you are familiar with? 

I worked on the east coast in my early 20s, I was the "roof observer" for a large company that was opening one of these Box stores every 2 weeks at the time. The membrane of choice was TPO, 45 mil, with a 10 NDL year warranty. The membrane was installed and “manufactured” by North American roofing, some kind of conglomerate. They were a decent outfit, had knowledgeable supers with migrant worker crews. They roofed a whole store in 5 days. It was very impressive. The real manufacturer was Carlisle. I like Carlisle’s TPO as far as TPOs go, I have a lot of experience with it. I know plenty of guys who work there as well as the main TPO guy who’s constantly trying to sell me on it cause even though he knows I have recommended their product, I am still hesitant to specify it. I am a little biased on it, but what else can I go on but personal experience. I also hate to say this, but if it fails, Carlisle will stand behind it. Period. I’ve seen it, I’ve seen them pay out when they really had no obligation to. 

One thing you mentioned is that you like it more than EPDM because of the welded seams. *Do you have a specific issue with EPDM tapped seams?* I don’t like them if there submerged so I would tend to agree with you that Heat welded is better. But I personally would rather see ½” of tape along a seam than a heat welded seam with some bleed out here and there. TPO does not seem to weld consistently. I haven’t welded a lot of it but it seems like most contractors say the same thing. The really good contractors can adapt. But not the bad contractors. And that’s who TPO seems to be marketed to (one reason we didn’t specify them). I have worked with other manufacturers as well but have had mostly bad experiences.


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## 1985gt

We install mainly Versico products who is made by Carlisle. We also have been using GAF's TPO a lot also. I do like both of their TPO, they are both easy to work with with very few differences between them. Again this is also personal experience as we have not used other brands in a number of years.

As far as liking TPO better then EPDM I may have mis typed. They both have their ups and downs and some jobs are more suitable for one or the other. For the EPDM seams, we have seen some bad one's mostly installer error. I can not recall our company ever having a problem with the seams we have done. One thing though you should never see 1/2" of tape showing 1/8 to 1/4 max. .

As far as welding TPO, hand welding can be tricky, a robot welder is the way to go on long seams. You will have far better results then by hand welding. Plus welding 100' heck even 50' gets tire some. 

I agree with Carlisle, we have installed Versico products for what seems like for ever and if there is a problem they are quick to fix it. The warranty inspectors are the same, between the two. Anytime we have had a tech question or needed approval on a 30 year or high wind warranty they have always been quick to reply if they were not available when we called. 

With out mentioning a name we looked at a customers roof a number of months ago and the TPO sheet was failing. Many phone calls and inspections they still have not resolved the problem. 8 or so year old roof, the company was going to replace it with their own dollar before we talked to them and informed them it was a manufactures defect. Sad that it happens but it does.


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## Pie in the Sky

Yea, good for you, You need to stand up for clients, I see that alot where there just going to pay for it... 

I meant I'd *rather* see 1/2" of tape (cause I now its still at least 2.5" continuios) than a weld that Im unsure judging by bleedout and a probe. if that makes sense. Besideds I avoided thorough inspections of seams. I could not inspect them as well as the manufacturer so who invite some sort of finger pointing.


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## RooferJim

Hey Pie in the Sky, its really too bad to say that these "big box stores" are being roofed by as you say "migrant crews" . When there are so many good American born roofers that are layed off and could use to earn a living wage. These types of contractors need to be exposed for what they are.


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## Pie in the Sky

Jim, 

Trust me, I am one of the most political people you ever met (ill do my best to keep my opinions to myself), and illegal immigration is on the top of my list for Topics (I’m in Denver now and its rampant, I believe they are a sanctuary city). 

First off were talking 10 years ago during “the Boom”. If you wanted to work, you were working. These migrant workers I speak of were here legally and did some amazing work. Growing up in Philadelphia (Local 30 country), it was IMPOSSIBLE to get good laborers at the time. No one who wasn’t working wanted to work (I’m ashamed to say it). Why work when you can collect welfare or get on disability. You hire day laborers and find them sleeping behind a bunk of insulation. At the time, prevailing wage was something like 35$ an hour, is that not enough to motivate an able body American to work hard? I know it’s not the topic of this post but because you brought it Up, I have a hard time faulting a person who is legally in this country trying to earn for their family. But I am a law Abiding citizen who believes America is the land of opportunity. If we don’t like it we will have to change the work Visa laws. But for the record I buy American and Hire American FIRST and foremost. And if I suspect someone is here illegally, I’m the first one to blow the whistle. And I do agree in the sense that if a Contractor knowingly hires someone who is here illegally, they should throw the book at them, 1 strike and you’re out.
On another note just to point out it is a regional thing, if you know roofers that want work, there’s a labor shortage in MT and WY as we speak, they would kill for any workers right now that know how to roof. Roof contractors can’t pay employees what the oil fields will pay them. 

I appreciate your comments, and agree, illegal immigration is not only a problem in the roofing industry but in time, it will be a big part of what destroys America. I hope this post does not offend anyone because it really is off topic but like I said before, I believe America is the land of opportunity but it’s up to a person to take advantage of that. I began roofing at 15 years old. I worked hard and didn’t miss a day of work (I was seasonal through School) until I left the job at 21. Roofing if the profession of opportunity where anyone willing to work hard can make it. I am living proof! 

Thanks again for the comment…

Dustin


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## Pie in the Sky

GT- Working as a consultant I do a lot of forensic work. If there is ANY way you can get a few samples of the failing membrane, I would love to get my hands on them and get a look at them (id send you postage). We have a pretty sophisticated lab here and samples of failures are a part of my library. If it were closer I'd try and go look at the thing. THANKS!


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## 1985gt

Pie in the Sky said:


> Yea, good for you, You need to stand up for clients, I see that alot where there just going to pay for it...
> 
> I meant I'd rather see 1/2" of tape (cause I now its still at least 2.5" continuios) than a weld that Im unsure judging by bleedout and a probe. if that makes sense. Besideds I avoided thorough inspections of seams. I could not inspect them as well as the manufacturer so who invite some sort of finger pointing.


I know what you mean, just a little friendly ribbing. I've seen some welded seams where they haven't made a full 2" weld, they just did the outside edge to maybe 1/2". Hand welding to me is a lot like moping asphalt, it takes a lot of hands on experience to learn. You can not just throw a guy a welder and expect results. We alway probe every seem before we leave the job. One thing about them is you can not be afraid to be rough with them. Most of the inspectors I've seen use a 90 Deg angle probe on a handle and they will try and make the seam come open, and they are definitely not gentle.



Pie in the Sky said:


> GT- Working as a consultant I do a lot of forensic work. If there is ANY way you can get a few samples of the failing membrane, I would love to get my hands on them and get a look at them (id send you postage). We have a pretty sophisticated lab here and samples of failures are a part of my library. If it were closer I'd try and go look at the thing. THANKS!


The TPO job should finally be started some time probably spring. I can get a few samples of the failures if you like. Is there a specific size you need? Some speculated that when the seam was welded they were to hot. This doesn't make much sense to me as it was mostly the bottom sheet with the failures. That and the rep even said they had trouble with their product at that time and have since switch manufactures.


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## Pie in the Sky

I personally wont Probe a TPO with the handle on my probe. You can’t be rough enough on that membrane like your saying. But again, I tried not to make it a habit to probe entire roofs, that’s what the manufacturers rep is for. And They all say they want 2” and say they will accept 1.5”. But when it comes down to it they accept 1” welds. I always hated that. If you’ll accept one inch welds Put it in writing so I don’t look like A goon for following your written instructions.

As far as samples, I like approx. 12X12” but whatever’s convenient. When doing Built up I always get 12X12” because we frequently de-saturate the samples using a vapor degreaser. It’s AWESOME to see a felt come that clean. Thanks Keep in touch and I’ll give you my Info. 

Thanks GT


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## 1985gt

Pie in the Sky said:


> I personally wont Probe a TPO with the handle on my probe. You can’t be rough enough on that membrane like your saying. But again, I tried not to make it a habit to probe entire roofs, that’s what the manufacturers rep is for. And They all say they want 2” and say they will accept 1.5”. But when it comes down to it they accept 1” welds. I always hated that. If you’ll accept one inch welds Put it in writing so I don’t look like A goon for following your written instructions.
> 
> As far as samples, I like approx. 12X12” but whatever’s convenient. When doing Built up I always get 12X12” because we frequently de-saturate the samples using a vapor degreaser. It’s AWESOME to see a felt come that clean. Thanks Keep in touch and I’ll give you my Info.
> 
> Thanks GT



Yeah its all Dependant on the inspector. Some are more lenient then others.

I know for some of the longer warranties we have actually had to cut out sections of a seam and send them in. I believe that was with GAF though, and it wasn't my project do I don't know the particulars of it.

I will see what I can do when the project starts as far as the samples. It should not be a problem. That would be pretty cool to see that with a BUR. I love me some asphalt roofs. I loved doing an asphalt and gravel when I was an installer. It's very much becoming a lost art though. There are a few manufacturing plants around here that won't install anything else. Luck for us there is not a lot of people in the area who install them anymore either.


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