# Warranties



## [email protected]

Hi,

What's the deal with a 30 year commerical flat roof warranty? I know of 15 and 20. There is a 30 year residential shingle. Do any of you offer 30 commercial roof warranties? Your thoughts please...


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## Pie in the Sky

Most manufacturers now offer some type of 30 year warranty... It started with "The Big Three" then was adopted by other manufacturers as a marketing tool. Its most popular on 90mil EPDM (which doesnt work well).


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## LCG

I am with Pie, if they have a 30yr systems warranty. They're lying.

The absolute best single ply manufacturers offer 25yr NDL warranties. Fibertite, IB, Sarnafill to name a few. These usually need to be 80mil systems and you have to be factory trained and certified to install them. 

I know IB and Fibertite have 50mil systems that are going 30yrs+ without defect and don't know enough about Sarna to comment though I am positive they do.

I'm sure IB, Sarna, or Fibertite will come out with an 80mil FA 30yr systems warranty before to long. They are the only ones I would trust with it. Then again...I am VERY BIAS!


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## [email protected]

Thanks a lot. I keep hearing "they're full of sh*t" but not why. Extremely helpful. Thanks.


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## Pie in the Sky

Every one is different, The BUR ones require an inspection after 20 years and again at 25. The owner pays for these inspections and *all* necessary repairs. You pay for the warranty up front, then you basically pay for it on the back end with repairs. 
And basically roof warranties themselves aren’t worth the paper their written on. They are designed to protect the manufacturer not the owner. 
I would rather rely on a properly designed and properly installed roof with no warranty and a contractor who stands behind his work.


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## [email protected]

*warranty*

Understood. Otherwise it would be like buying a "lemon." What'ya do with Grumpy? :shifty:


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## Grumpy

I think it's that time of the year again where I am burnt out and start becoming depressed of constantly being overwhelmed. Anyone want to buy my roofing business? I'm seious $200k, that's undervalued based on last year's valuation. I'll either go work for a roof consultant or quit roofing for gunsmithing fulltime. Yeah it's that time of year again. When is winter? I need a mother effin' loooong break.


I actually agree with Pie's original assessment. I generally promote 15 and 20 year specifications to my customers. As for warranties, I generally promote 10 or 15 year warranties. You can do a 20 year specification with a 10 year warranty. 

I also think a warranty won't keep the water out and a warranty is less important than a roofer who cares about what he is doing. But I do still see the need for warranties in the market place, much like an insurance policy. You only need a warranty if the SHTF.


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## 1985gt

We have installed a few 30 year EPDM roofs, they were spec'd by the architect, we won the bid and installed them. One is now like 5 years old, one is one year old and we are installing one as we speak. The last two are 1/4" tapered osb coverboard and 90 mil. They also have a 100 MPH wind and 2" hail warranty. Will they last? I'll let you know in 29 or so years. 

When I spec a roof its generally in the 10-20 year range. 


Gaf will give a 30 year with the 80 mill extreme TPO. Never installed one though.


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## Pie in the Sky

Anyone who thinks TPO will last 30 years in the sun is high on crack... Im sorry thats just my opinion... TO me the millage doesnt matter when it cracks like it does. 

Ive been told by contractors that the 90 Mil EPDM is hard to strip in because of its thickness.. I dont get it.. No EPDM ever failed cause the membrane went away... why make it thicker??? how bout this. Roof with 60 mil membrane and use the 90 Mil details.. THe only reason they went 90 Mil was so they could charge more for the product...


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## Grumpy

Pie in the Sky said:


> Anyone who thinks TPO will last 30 years in the sun is high on crack... Im sorry thats just my opinion... TO me the millage doesnt matter when it cracks like it does.
> 
> Ive been told by contractors that the 90 Mil EPDM is hard to strip in because of its thickness.. I dont get it.. No EPDM ever failed cause the membrane went away... why make it thicker??? how bout this. Roof with 60 mil membrane and use the 90 Mil details.. THe only reason they went 90 Mil was so they could charge more for the product...


TPO won't last 30 years, but the property owner will also do somethign to void the warranty and/or forget who holds the warranty before 30 years is up. 

I had a candid talk with a manufacturer rep, not a rinky dink local guy, but a high up guy. I was asking about warranties and asked how they could offer warranty's for so long. I commented that their liability goes up over time, and he said the exact opposite is true. He commented that the longer the warranty term the more chance that someone will do something to screw up the warranty or it'll be forgotten about. 


I beleive Versico is also offering a 30 year TPO spec/warranty, but I could be wrong. I've never seen it, but was asked to bid it once and passed. 


Charging more for the product is ding ding ding grand prize winner.


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## [email protected]

Okay, well we're actually installing a GAF 80mil TPO that's going to get a green roof so this will get interesting... and yes we will have someone there watching over the students, yep Students:yes:. Spec'd by Arch. and wanted by Owner. 

Thanks, I've learned a lot today.


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## Pie in the Sky

My recommendation is to water test the roof prior to installing the garden. I will say I would never put my name on that for 30 years. But in reality, the warranty does protect from catastrophic failure like Grumpy said... Good luck, Post some pics when it’s done. I’ve worked on a few jobs like that Pro-Bono... I find if you can get the students focused enough to do it, they are more careful than other construction trades.

D


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## [email protected]

Will do. It'll be some time in late November.


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## 1985gt

Pie in the Sky said:


> Anyone who thinks TPO will last 30 years in the sun is high on crack... Im sorry thats just my opinion... TO me the millage doesnt matter when it cracks like it does.
> 
> Ive been told by contractors that the 90 Mil EPDM is hard to strip in because of its thickness.. I dont get it.. No EPDM ever failed cause the membrane went away... why make it thicker??? how bout this. Roof with 60 mil membrane and use the 90 Mil details.. THe only reason they went 90 Mil was so they could charge more for the product...


TPO hater! Besides not everyone can afford PVC! Before I was with the company they installed an old ballasted TPO (don't ask me why) it lasted 25+ years, in fact termites got to the wood deck and completly destroyed the deck, to the point where there was a good 15X15 area unsupported, yet the TPO held up, not a leak. Rather odd I though.

I would guess increased puncture resistance. /shrug A lot of the 30 year details are the way they are because of the thicker membrane, T-joints ect. I don't think it's any harder but it just takes longer tripling up on the details.




[email protected] said:


> Okay, well we're actually installing a GAF 80mil TPO that's going to get a green roof so this will get interesting... and yes we will have someone there watching over the students, yep Students:yes:. Spec'd by Arch. and wanted by Owner.
> 
> Thanks, I've learned a lot today.


Yeah post some pic's. I've never worked with their 80 mil, I got a sample sitting in the office, I think angle changes are going to be a PITA with it.


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## Pie in the Sky

TPO was only manufactured for roofing for the first time in the US in 1989 (before that it was used in car dashboards). VERY FEW of these roofs were installed. And as far as I know all failed they were non-Reinforced. in 1993 they added reinforcing to the sheet. So even if it were the first one installed its only 23 this year. I’m assuming yours was reinforced since it held up to the weight of the ballast on the unsupported section. So that makes it less than 20 years. You make a great point, even 20 years if it’s in good condition, that’s a good service life. But it only got that old because the membrane was covered by ballast. I will bet the farm, the flashings failed, at least the south facing ones. I have some experience with ballasted TPO. A lot of them were black, good roofs except the black flashings all failed right at the 15 year mark, Ironically right when JPS's warranty ended. And to another point. The TPO you are talking about must have been 1st generation. Now most manufacturers are on the third generation. So it’s different now anyway. For better or worse? Maybe it’s been cheapened up? 

SO this guy is covering his membrane up, a good Idea and if the seams are good, he may get 30 years. It’s basically a pond liner. But in full sun? I just can’t see it. Most of the failures I am seeing are right around the 8 to 10 year mark. I don’t know Manufacturers except for one JPS who’s no longer in business. They plan on TPO losing a Mill of thickness a year. Ok, 80 mils, 40 above 40 below the scrim? So after 30 years you'll only have 10 mils above the scrim. I just don’t like it. And when it starts craze cracking at 10 years, who cares how thick it is. 

Let me say this. If I were to specify or oversee the installation of a TPO roof, I would choose XXXXX. I have the most experience with them and they are a large company who most likely will make problems right. I’m not saying other manufactures aren’t good or wont honor it but I just have the most experience with XXXXX. In fact I know the Head TPO guy and I talk to him about it frequently. XXXXXX kind of put a lot of Eggs in the TPO basket. Several plants around the country. They push for white roofs and sustainability but offer other products too if you want them including PVC. Well the green people hate PVC they think it’s bad cause of chlorine or something, who can keep up with it, it’s all marketing anyway. But this company offers PVC still, they don’t manufacture it but they offer it too for the Small remaining part of the market. Well I just heard they are opening a PVC plant. It’ll be operational by years end 2014. To me this is kind of scary. It’s like the largest producer of TPO is shuffling some eggs around. To me that’s an admission that TPO is not the future and PVC is not going away. Or it’s a simple response to the market.. I’m wrong all the time. 

GT- All I am saying is if my names on it, I want to be sure I am giving them what is promised. So let me ask you. You go to a building and install a Mech fastened Membrane and the warranty is 20 years. Well let’s say it’s one of these membranes that are suffering catastrophic failures after 10 years. Who does the owner call? YOU then you go up there and say “Yea look theirs cracks all over the membrane and I can see the scrim” or there’s piles of powdered polymer. You say it’s a membrane failure to the owner. The manufacturer of the membrane is out of business now. Who does that owner put the blame for his 200K$ roof on? YOU… and he tells his friend and they tell their friends.. Lets say they are in Business. What do they do? Pay someone to coat the roof. This coating peels off in 3-5 years.. 

I don’t mean to be negative.. I swear…


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## Grumpy

Pie, I believe the difference between being a consultant and a contractor is we have to balance value and quality when we are proposing the roofing system. If we are writing the specification, we are bidding against others who are writing the specification. I'd love it if I did nothing but PVC on my low slope, great peace of mind for me. But I bid against guys on a regular basis who are proposing the 10 year modified bitumen roof that is THE STANDARD in my area and it sucks! 

For you to say install PVC, this is how I want it done, and for everyone to bid the same is great for you. For me to tell customers PVC is the right way to go but materials will cost you basically double what TPO or EPDM costs, it is a hard sell with a very limited market. 

I for one like TPO for what it is. If someone wants a premium roof, and maybe 25% of roof buyers do, I will spec nothing but PVC. But if they want a 10 or 15 year roof and they are aware that's about the best they will get from TPO, well then so be it. I'll do the job to the best of my ability. For those that want a 20 year roof, and some do, they get nothing but PVC.

I haven't seen the problem you are mentioning. My oldest TPO is about 6 years now. Hell when I started installing single ply, very few of the suppliers in my area were stocking tpo. When I was specifying TPO, hell even EPDM, my customers had no friggin idea what the heck these products were. Even now on most jobs there is a good chance if they get 3 bids, I am the only one saying single ply. Modofied is still that dominant on the small commercial and residential roofs. 

Large commercial is a whole different ball game. Single ply has been used here for years on the large commercial/industrial/municipal... that's just not a sand box the big boys let me play in that often   

I am not defending TPO. It is what it is. I have heard nothing but bad things about TPO from people whos opinions I trust. For me, from my point of view, trying to break into that big boy sand box and hitting my head against the wall, wanting to give up trying, but being too stubborn to give up trying, I hate to admit I did lower my standards a little bit and let TPO onto my menu. But like I said, if the customer knows what they are getting, so be it (for now at least). 


As for your last paragraph I get it man, that's exactly what I tell everyone when it comes to my steep slope. I am going to do the best job possible or I am going to walk. I wish I could say that on the low slope, if I said I am going to install nothing but PVC, take it or leave it, I wouldn't be doing much low slope AT ALL.


BTW I know exactly who XXXXX is. LOL


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## Pie in the Sky

I’m sure most people know who I’m talking about. I probably could have listed who it was Because I am saying I think they are the best but I didn’t want to hurt any feelings..
I think you are right on the money with what you do. I totally understand what you do and what you have to do. you need to eat. You offer the upsell then it’s up to them. I agree with Balance too, seems like consultants are just trying to cover their butts so they overdo everything. But I personally was never like that, Lets balance budget and value. Value engineering absolutely could work if it’s done right. It’s usually not. 
You will get in there One Day Grump. Good manufacturers kill for roofers like you, you limit their liability. The trick is going to be getting a good fit and a good local sales rep to help feed you work. Good property managers know the value of a good roof. 
I did a lot of Quality assurance on a large box store chain when I just started consulting. A large conglomerate was the contractor, they gave 10 year warranties where they carried the warranty and relabeled XXXXXs membrane. This was about 8 - 10 years ago now. I’d love to hear how they are performing now and even see some of them.


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## 1985gt

Pie in the Sky said:


> TPO was only manufactured for roofing for the first time in the US in 1989 (before that it was used in car dashboards). VERY FEW of these roofs were installed. And as far as I know all failed they were non-Reinforced. in 1993 they added reinforcing to the sheet. So even if it were the first one installed its only 23 this year. I’m assuming yours was reinforced since it held up to the weight of the ballast on the unsupported section. So that makes it less than 20 years. You make a great point, even 20 years if it’s in good condition, that’s a good service life. But it only got that old because the membrane was covered by ballast. I will bet the farm, the flashings failed, at least the south facing ones. I have some experience with ballasted TPO. A lot of them were black, good roofs except the black flashings all failed right at the 15 year mark, Ironically right when JPS's warranty ended. And to another point. The TPO you are talking about must have been 1st generation. Now most manufacturers are on the third generation. So it’s different now anyway. For better or worse? Maybe it’s been cheapened up?


I would gather I could be way off. It's just what the boss told me who is known for having a worse memory then I do. I think mostly he was amazed that 1) he didn't go through the roof. 2) It actually held the weight of the ballast. Yes I do believe it was black.



Pie in the Sky said:


> SO this guy is covering his membrane up, a good Idea and if the seams are good, he may get 30 years. It’s basically a pond liner. But in full sun? I just can’t see it. Most of the failures I am seeing are right around the 8 to 10 year mark. I don’t know Manufacturers except for one JPS who’s no longer in business. They plan on TPO losing a Mill of thickness a year. Ok, 80 mils, 40 above 40 below the scrim? So after 30 years you'll only have 10 mils above the scrim. I just don’t like it. And when it starts craze cracking at 10 years, who cares how thick it is.


Yeah but you also have to factor in the area, sure in the desert any roof is going to degrade faster. We have about the same weather as you just less moisture. 



Pie in the Sky said:


> Let me say this. If I were to specify or oversee the installation of a TPO roof, I would choose XXXXX. I have the most experience with them and they are a large company who most likely will make problems right. I’m not saying other manufactures aren’t good or wont honor it but I just have the most experience with XXXXX. In fact I know the Head TPO guy and I talk to him about it frequently. XXXXXX kind of put a lot of Eggs in the TPO basket. Several plants around the country. They push for white roofs and sustainability but offer other products too if you want them including PVC. Well the green people hate PVC they think it’s bad cause of chlorine or something, who can keep up with it, it’s all marketing anyway. But this company offers PVC still, they don’t manufacture it but they offer it too for the Small remaining part of the market. Well I just heard they are opening a PVC plant. It’ll be operational by years end 2014. To me this is kind of scary. It’s like the largest producer of TPO is shuffling some eggs around. To me that’s an admission that TPO is not the future and PVC is not going away. Or it’s a simple response to the market.. I’m wrong all the time.



If XXXXX is XXX I know who your talking about. Yes, yes they did I don't think is that they don't believe in TPO I think it's more to make more profit and having their own PVC. They also talked about opening an EPDM plant. Then again we could be talking about 4 different companies.  But no PVC isn't going away but its a hard sell in our area.




Pie in the Sky said:


> GT- All I am saying is if my names on it, I want to be sure I am giving them what is promised. So let me ask you. You go to a building and install a Mech fastened Membrane and the warranty is 20 years. Well let’s say it’s one of these membranes that are suffering catastrophic failures after 10 years. Who does the owner call? YOU then you go up there and say “Yea look theirs cracks all over the membrane and I can see the scrim” or there’s piles of powdered polymer. You say it’s a membrane failure to the owner. The manufacturer of the membrane is out of business now. Who does that owner put the blame for his 200K$ roof on? YOU… and he tells his friend and they tell their friends.. Lets say they are in Business. What do they do? Pay someone to coat the roof. This coating peels off in 3-5 years..


We don't install traditional mechanically fastened TPO's. We do however install Rhino Bond. So if 10 years one of our roofs fail and the manufacturer is out of business (unlikely but you never know) we will work with the building owner to see what we can do. If it's our warranty then of course we are responsible for it. If its the manufacture then we will explore the possibilities on what we can do. We will do what ever it takes to help out the building owner since a good amount of our business is word of mouth and repeat customers. 

If they are in business then most likely they will do what XXXXXXX did a few months ago when we were called out to 7-8 year old failing TPO roof, they recovered it and payed for it all.



Pie in the Sky said:


> I don’t mean to be negative.. I swear…


Yes you do your always negative! :laughing: I now will call you negative Nancy. :laughing:



Grumpy said:


> Pie, I believe the difference between being a consultant and a contractor is we have to balance value and quality when we are proposing the roofing system. If we are writing the specification, we are bidding against others who are writing the specification. I'd love it if I did nothing but PVC on my low slope, great peace of mind for me. But I bid against guys on a regular basis who are proposing the 10 year modified bitumen roof that is THE STANDARD in my area and it sucks!
> 
> For you to say install PVC, this is how I want it done, and for everyone to bid the same is great for you. For me to tell customers PVC is the right way to go but materials will cost you basically double what TPO or EPDM costs, it is a hard sell with a very limited market.
> 
> I for one like TPO for what it is. If someone wants a premium roof, and maybe 25% of roof buyers do, I will spec nothing but PVC. But if they want a 10 or 15 year roof and they are aware that's about the best they will get from TPO, well then so be it. I'll do the job to the best of my ability. For those that want a 20 year roof, and some do, they get nothing but PVC.
> 
> I haven't seen the problem you are mentioning. My oldest TPO is about 6 years now. Hell when I started installing single ply, very few of the suppliers in my area were stocking tpo. When I was specifying TPO, hell even EPDM, my customers had no friggin idea what the heck these products were. Even now on most jobs there is a good chance if they get 3 bids, I am the only one saying single ply. Modofied is still that dominant on the small commercial and residential roofs.
> 
> Large commercial is a whole different ball game. Single ply has been used here for years on the large commercial/industrial/municipal... that's just not a sand box the big boys let me play in that often
> 
> I am not defending TPO. It is what it is. I have heard nothing but bad things about TPO from people whos opinions I trust. For me, from my point of view, trying to break into that big boy sand box and hitting my head against the wall, wanting to give up trying, but being too stubborn to give up trying, I hate to admit I did lower my standards a little bit and let TPO onto my menu. But like I said, if the customer knows what they are getting, so be it (for now at least).
> 
> 
> As for your last paragraph I get it man, that's exactly what I tell everyone when it comes to my steep slope. I am going to do the best job possible or I am going to walk. I wish I could say that on the low slope, if I said I am going to install nothing but PVC, take it or leave it, I wouldn't be doing much low slope AT ALL.
> 
> 
> BTW I know exactly who XXXXX is. LOL


I agree with you, as a contractor when we are spec a roof biding against other I will go EPDM 100% of the time for a main option. When you bid against a company who just pulls off the ballast the membrane then uses a cover board and glues it down it's hard to compete when your tearing off the whole thing.

I'm surprised the industrial/municipal are single ply, around here they are almost all BUR's. Even the schools are a mineral surfaced bur.

If I was to bid a PVC roof right now against anything else we wouldn't be doing 5% of the private work we are now. Even public bid jobs I've seen 4-5 come up PVC in the last two years.



Pie in the Sky said:


> You will get in there One Day Grump. Good manufacturers kill for roofers like you, you limit their liability. The trick is going to be getting a good fit and a good local sales rep to help feed you work. Good property managers know the value of a good roof.
> [/FONT][/COLOR]


Not to take anything away from Grumpy because he is someone who knows what he is doing and takes great pride in his work, but lately manufacturers could care less who they certify all they want is a buck. Or maybe its the rep in my area...


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## Pie in the Sky

Ill try and Be more Positive about TPO... Just please done call me Negative Nancy.. :no:

You may be right about the manufacturers just being in it for the money but When I was working in MT at the Design firm, One of the things we did was help get smaller detail oreanted roofers working with Manufacturers to get approved. I was asked to recommend roofers all the time by manufacturers. Ive also seen them weed them out. 

Total recovers of failed roofs is something I havent seen alot of. Usually they want to coat it. Unless I got involved (speaking of when I designed more roofing). WHen I influenced the specification roofing for 30 Million in new construction a year (total project cost) I had some serious Pull. Ive had teams of executives fly into Dinkey little Billings to sit down and basically ask for forgiveness.. 
Now Im a peeon.. They all hate me cause I mainly look at their failures.. Truethfully I like pretty much all the manufacturers out there. Some do some things better than others. Most want to provide the best they can. We all need to make money, I can understand that, but theres pleanty of room for all of us to make money with the owner paying a fair price and get a good project. 

OK Maybe I just need to embrace the nickname :laughing: But seriously, I have a passion for what I do, and you get a bad name in this industry (not nickname) it will follow you around.... I plan on being in this industry for a while.

PS I like to think of myself More of a "Doubting Thomas" than a Nancy....


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## 1985gt

Ok I won't call you Nancy  

You mentioned a few things there that I liked. To me smaller roofing companies seem to be the ones doing the best work. This isn't always the rule of course but I've seen a lot of really crappy work coming from bigger companies. Maybe we just see more of it because of the volume but like you said reputation means a lot in this in industry. I've also seen a few bigger shingle companies in our area trying to break in to commercial. I've got a few problems with this A. They are coming in and doing really hack jobs low balling the rest of us and the few I've seen doing really poor work. B. One had a claim to fame of doing close to 1,000 residential roofs last year. Why try and break in to a market you know nothing about, all it does is make you and sadly the rest of us look bad, because of your poor work, and subbing everything out. 


There should be enough money in this for all of us, but sadly it seems like us the end users of the product get the shaft. The manufactures make their money, the architects and consultants make their money, the roofers have to deal with raising material costs some times monthly and I can tell you with the public bid stuff we have bid this year, we had to lower our profit margins. I can't tell you the last time we actually raised them, thats the sad part. 

I'm sorry I was being kind of a whinny Willy there.


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## Chandlers Roofing

We offer 30 year NDL warranties with our IB Roof Systems quite regularly. Just completed a very large HOA project with a 30 year NDL just about 4 months ago.

HOA's love it for their reserve study!

Chandler's Roofing - Los Angeles and Orange County Roofs - Rain Gutters - Solar


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## USRoofco

*30-Year Warranty a Bit Iffy*

We will work give a 30-year warranty, but it has to be the right system and decking. Still usually a little hesitant.


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## wfduggan

Grumpy nailed it. it's highly unlikely that the owner will meet all of the qualifiers that keep the warranty in tact for 30 years let alone actually know where they stuck the actual papar warranty. furthermore most current systems won't last that long due to neglegence, lack of repairs, weather, improper maintenance, etc. The material is probably capable of lasting so long under testing conditions and with regular maintenance, but I live in the real world, not the laboratory.


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## Fregeau

Of course, long warranties are difficult to obtain and to maintain in force.
I'd rather use past experience before comparing several membranes, instead of rely only on long term warranties.
Have a look at the picture below, 42 years after fabrication, exposed to harsh weather and still flexible.


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## wfduggan

maintenance :wallbash:..... I've worked on roofs that are purfectly good where they have copper lpt cable upstream from the water flow (biocide), but where the roof has not been kept clean and the copper cables were not upstream (allowing biological growth) the membrane turned dark and as a result, degraded at the dark areas (from overheating). When in fact a simple cleaning and coating would have extended the life of the entire roof another 10 years, before probably having to revisit. 

So if I cut one peice of membrane to show you from one location it is 20 years old and in great condition, however 20' in another direction I can find that dark piece with holes eaten through it.

That said, I've seen roofs designed for 10 years go 20 and 30. thanks to good installation, good flow and proper care.

The warranty is simple how long the manufacturer will back the product, they know their product will last x years under "normal" conditions and regular maintenance, plus some fudge factor. The concept of "regular maintenance" is imparritive as most large problems start as a minor one and become exacerbated over time with neglegence.

And worse, most owners have the "out of sight out of mind" mentallity towards roofs. It is a rare find when the owner keeps regularly scheduled upkeep as part of their assett management plan. The assett management plan including such upkeep is the mark of an experienced land lord/owner/property manager.


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