# Need some pointers on public bidding



## Cuda

Are there any public bidding pro's around that can give me some tips on bidding these? How to tell if it's a good project to bid, how to recognize red flags, process to follow up after bid, anything and everything you have to say would be greatly appreciated. 

We've been bidding jobs off iSqFt, Dodge, Bluebook, etc. and getting nothing. I know you really have to slim your margins when it comes to public bidding, but our margins are already as low as we want to go. Is there a way to win these AND keep a decent margin? 

Thanks


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## AnyMonkey

Cuda said:


> Are there any public bidding pro's around that can give me some tips on bidding these? How to tell if it's a good project to bid, how to recognize red flags, process to follow up after bid, anything and everything you have to say would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> We've been bidding jobs off iSqFt, Dodge, Bluebook, etc. and getting nothing. I know you really have to slim your margins when it comes to public bidding, but our margins are already as low as we want to go. Is there a way to win these AND keep a decent margin?
> 
> Thanks


What type of roofing is it that you are looking for?


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## Cuda

We'll put down anything but mainly looking for TPO/PVC/EPDM


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## Cuda

I've read somewhere before that there's a kind of loop hole almost with public bidding where if you see an error or conflict between the plans and specs you bid to whichever of the two governs (I think it's the specs that govern over plans but not totally sure) to get your bid the lowest, then drive it up after award with change orders. I've heard that this way you can actually end up with your total being significantly higher than your bid. Has anyone ever bid a job this way? I'm curious to hear how the GC, Architect, Owner reacted to something like this.


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## AnyMonkey

Cuda said:


> I've read somewhere before that there's a kind of loop hole almost with public bidding where if you see an error or conflict between the plans and specs you bid to whichever of the two governs (I think it's the specs that govern over plans but not totally sure) to get your bid the lowest, then drive it up after award with change orders. I've heard that this way you can actually end up with your total being significantly higher than your bid. Has anyone ever bid a job this way? I'm curious to hear how the GC, Architect, Owner reacted to something like this.


 
Again I think that each area is different... and the bids are set out differently depending on who issues them. If the bid is being run on the back of a roof consultant you can bet that there are not many things that have been left out. Not all public bidding is from plans either at least not here. Re and Re bidding for me is almost plan free. New obviously is more plan related but is new really where you want to invest your energy?

I would not count on everyone being idiots enough to let you low ball your way in and just allow you to upsell your ass off..... GC's especially watch their money very carefully and if you did not put enough money in your bid to allow for the GC headache factor then your lowball bid will really cost you.

When you are bidding publicly you will get to know all of the other companies... you will see who bids low who bids high and who just don't have a clue what they are doing so you have to remove them from your mind. but this takes time. At every site visit I make it a habit to write down all of the companies that were there so when I am actually sitting down doing the estimate I can add my margin according to where I think the prices will go. 

At the end of the day as an estimator, your responsibility is to make sure that you have accounted for everything in your quote... as long as you have done that then all that is left is for the company to add profit and overhead. This is the number that you play with when trying to get work..... On large roof assemblies you can use a lower margin because you are making profit on much more material... and on smaller roof assemblies you want that markup to come up a bit.

Don't be afraid to throw a few heavy numbers out there to start with or at least what seems heavy to you... new guys on the block are often quite low and they have to get stung a time or two before they come up to reality.


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## Grumpy

Cuda said:


> I've read somewhere before that there's a kind of loop hole almost with public bidding where if you see an error or conflict between the plans and specs you bid to whichever of the two governs (I think it's the specs that govern over plans but not totally sure) to get your bid the lowest, then drive it up after award with change orders. I've heard that this way you can actually end up with your total being significantly higher than your bid. Has anyone ever bid a job this way? I'm curious to hear how the GC, Architect, Owner reacted to something like this.


Oh you mean like this?










It's my experience that's ghow the new construction game is played. Bid to spec, bid to spec, bid to spec, and slam with change orders. I don't like this way of playing games but that seems to be the way it's done. I was doing a job once and saw a stack, stack, like 200 pages, of change orders that the carpenter submitted to the GC. 

The GC doesn't cover defects in specification out of pocket. He's going to refer that to the specifier, possibly E&O insurance.


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## Cuda

Please tell me that is yours Grumpy! 

I agree that it isn't the most honest way to go about it, but after a year solid of bidding and getting no where, it seems like a good way to squeeze into a few jobs. And change orders occur often enough in bigger project that they would have to account for at least some in their budget, right? 

It's like you said before AnyMonkey, the person who makes the biggest mistake is often the one who ends up awarded the job. My thouths are, if you are aware of your mistake and know you can later change it in your favor, you can bid controlled mistakes and actually win some bids AND end up with your decent margin back. 

I do wonder how the GCs, owners and architects react to something like this though. I wouldn't want it coming back to bite me. Also, I still don't feel knowledgeable enough with public bidding to be able to identify what can be turned into a change order later, if it will be accepted, and what is the best way to rack em up without pissing everyone off and making them not want to use us again.


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## shazapple

I'm looking at this from the view of a project manager. I scope the project, hire the consultant, review the drawings, and put it out to tender. 

The biggest mistakes I see from the contractor
- Not reading the specs so your bid is missing documentation
- Not providing correctly dated security deposits, certificates, etc.
- Not submitting addenda's or changes
- Not visiting the site and doing your own measurements. 
- Trying to use a product that they may be familiar with, but ends up being more costly than the tender package asks for
- Not reading the specs!

Some things the contractor should watch out for
- Not all architects were created equal. Ask around to see who does a throrough job with their drawings and who doesn't. 
- I hate to say this but I know it happens: if there is something that isn't included on the plans, don't include it in your bid. Small things should typically be let go, but if there is an issue that will cost you time/money there should be a change order.
- Same thing goes for small items. I find many architects aren't familiar with roofing design, so they end up drawings something that is way overkill or just incorrect and then refer to the manufacturer or NRCA. Once on site, the AHJ (inspector, construction manager, architect, etc) is willing to go with the manufacturers detail, which usually that ends up being the cheaper method. 
- Building on those two points, know who will be in charge of the job and know what they are like. Some AHJ will be more lienient on what is in the tender package than others, especially if they know you do good work.
- Building on the last point again: do good work. you might have to get some projects that will lose you money in order to get known by the AHJ's.
- If you have an alternate product submit your request to the consultant early, then follow up. If there is something consistently being left out ask the product rep to visit the consultant. 
- Bid on everything and you'll eventually get a project. That will give you a bit better understanding of what is required and where you can cut the fat. 
- You're more likely to get local jobs than those farther from you, but bid on them anyway incase the other people are too busy.
- Read the specs! Asl you can tell, this is a major problem. I'd say every other tender will have a rejected contractor because he has incorrect information or was missing something.


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## Cuda

Thanks shazapple, I appreciate your input. I try to make it a point to be as familiar as possible with the whole project from the view of the specs first before I look at the plans but this is a very time consuming process and the more projects we unsuccessfully bid, the harder it is to spend so much time on the bidding process. It was a lot easier when we first started public bidding and were excited about it.

I find that the hardest thing about bidding is getting the GC or owner to just tell you WHY you didn't win the bid. Getting them to get back to you on IF you won or where your bid came in is hard enough, but getting them to give you moment of their time to tell you if you made any mistakes or left something out and were just passed over is near impossible. 

Without knowing if we did anything wrong, it's diffucult to tell how accurate we were in reading and comprehending the specs. There was one job I bid a while back that actually had two alternates that I totally missed because I didn't know to go through division 1 to check if there were any alternates. Never heard a thing from the GC, so I just assume he just trashed my bid since I left out the alternates. 

I'd really like some pointers on how to do a thorough job at reading the specs and just public bidding as a whole. The whole fake-it-till-you-make-it is really getting tiring.


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## Pie in the Sky

Cuda, If you understand the specs and how they are put together, your review shouldn’t take more than a few minutes. 
And beware, if there is a conflict between the specs and drawings they hold the same weight and it’s the responsibility of the contractor to submit the question 10 days prior to the bid (UNLESS PREFERENCE IS GIVEN TO ONE OR THE OTHER IN THE SPECS DIV 01 _almost never is_). 

Just a Quick explanation of the contract documents. 
*Part 1* - General requirements this will typically contain related sections, what submittals need to be submitted and all that contract type stuff specific to this sections Work.
*Part 2* - Products - this is what you are to install. Products should RARELY be listed on the drawings, it should all be spelled out here.
*Part 3* - Execution - "Install membrane with mechanical fasteners through 2 layers of insulation blah blah blah..." "stagger insulation joints" This is the basic requirements of the system and explains how its installed.

The drawings should be nothing more than a graphic representation of what you need to do and special conditions including dimensions. Typically, they should not list products or means and methods. 

Shazz is right... Just cause we understand them doesnt mean the architect does... My Advise is to spend the time learning about specs and be more knowlegable than the architect. This will get you work... When you submit all the educated questions an owner will see you know what your doing... Check out CSI (construction specifiers institute):thumbup1:


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## 1985gt

First starting out, never bid a job that you can not actually site visit. In fact other then some new construction we rarely bid on something we can not physically look at. Set up ect will eat away at your bottom line pretty quickly.

Bid them all, this will give you an idea who is lowest normally and what you would need to do to land the job.

Go to all of the bid openings, that you can of course.

You may not win all the bids but the ones you do win on make sure you do the job as best you can, punch list your self twice. Now if/when the GC/architect punch list it there should be very minimal to do.

This will get you in good graces with said GC/Architects. They love hard workers who do the job on time and well. Work with them and explain something they don't know. Do not go in with a attitude of "I'm the roofer I know the best" This will only piss them off and remember, they can and will make your life hell.

Make friends with the GC's supers. This will get you extra little things that they forgot, or sometimes the GC's will bid small roofing stuff blind. I can't begin to tell you how much counter flashing and other little stuff we have bent or small work because we are in good graces with a number of the GC's in the area's supers. Do you know how long it takes to bend a couple hundred feet of Counter flashing? Not very long, now ask how much we charge, it's a larger profit then you you would make on a public bid. Plus one of the supers we know has his own tractor trailer and hauls our equipment for must less then anyone else would charge. But he still makes a good profit for him self at night and on the week ends. 


Change orders UGh, honestly 1/2 the time they are not worth the hassle. We are currently waiting on one because the architects messed up a tapper, we caught it the first day of the area, 3 months later it has finally got all of the approvals. Granted this situation is a bit different but still they are a hassle. Bid from the documents, don't rely on change orders. Plus if the architect/GC get tired of them I bet they will make sure you don't get another job with them. 


Read the spec book 3-4 times, take it home and put it under your pillow at night. Some can be terrible to read, and that is an understatement. 

Most say the spec book overrides the drawings. 

A fair number of architects in our area know little to jack about roofing, all details ect are pulled from who ever manufactures web site. If you have questions, asked at the minimum 3 days before the bid opening. They will need the time.


Tighten up your belt.

Public bidding may not yield higher profit margins but it takes or hopefully takes the guy with a pickup and calls him self a roofer out of the equation. Plus there is a 90% chance that someone will get the job so the funding is there, unlike chasing home owners only to get beat out by billy bob roofer.


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## shazapple

For my organization the tender opening is public, so you can come and watch or call and get the results. It should say in the spec when/where the tender opening will happen. 

It might be easier to pick a large organization (aka government) that puts out a lot of packages. For the mostpart they will have the same specs so you can get familiar with the important parts. After that you should be familiar enough with specs that you can see the common thread.

To add to Pie's explaination, a spec is split up into divisions. The first couple divisions (starts with 00 or 01) usually have information bidding and general requirements. Division 02 and up usually has to do with the actual project and materials. Each division has parts as Pie explained. Here's a list of the typical divisions, you can see that membrane roofing is all under Division 7 "Thermal and moisture protection"
http://archtoolbox.com/representation/specifications/60-csidivisions.html

Example: Division 07 52 00 is modbit roofing. Part 1 usually has the standards (NRCA, manufacturer, etc), warranty, scheduling, etc. Part 2 lists all the materials, usually with a list of acceptable manufacturers. Part 3 lists the execution: what to remove (remove down to deck, keep existing insulation, etc) and how to install (adhesive, mechanically fastened, etc).

What's a typical roofing system/manufacturer you are comfortable with installing? I'll try to find a spec that matches that from one of the manufacturers so you get an idea of what you are looking at. 

Here's an example from Carlisle of a mechanically fastened EPDM. This is a real quick and dirty spec since it is manufacturer specific. Most jobs you see probably have a bunch of standards and performance requirements, but that is because it lists two or three different manufacturers.
http://www.carlislesyntec.com/defau...mpage=search&category=96&mediatype=literature
Part 1 asks for quality assurance, paperwork you need to submit, storage, etc
part 2 lists the acceptable products: membrane, solvent, etc
part 3 lists the execution: remove existing, install membrane, etc


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## Cuda

That's a big reason why we started doing public bidding in the first place, it takes the "billy bob" roofer away. I figured new builds would be the way to go with public bidding because of this, but are they as much of a headache as im sensing here? We've only ever done r&r jobs. I always bid both though. Maybe it's a good thing we've never won one of those?

I LOVE public bid openings. I wish every project had one. I hate waiting just to hear whose bid fell where. Even if they do have to review the scopes and all that, it's always nice to at least know where you're coming in at compared to others. There's been sooo many times where I've tried and tried to contact the GCs I'd bid a project to and never hear a word from them. 

I'd really like to develop a relationship with a GC that will eventually lead to them coming to us with their private jobs. We are on countless GC's bidders lists, we recieve around 20 invitations to public bids from GCs a day, done some face time with local GC's, filled out prequalification forms with some and even let em see our financial statements. But still we just can't quite get that bond going for some reason. 

Maybe the GC's that bid public stuff aren't looking for a relationship like this and we're just contacting the wrong GCs. I've thought before that they might even just be using my numbers to low ball their preffered roofer that they have a standing relationship already with. I've been looking into an AGC (Associated General Contractors) membership hoping maybe some GCs involved there might be looking for a long term relationship with a roofer like us. Does anybody have any experience there?

As for the specs in public bids, the toughest thing is trying to get an accurate understanding of what the actual scope of work is since it's hardly ever defined. I usually just stick to Div 7 and only bid what is specified there, and check Div 1 for bid requirements. With things like decking, skylights, and other miscellaneous items in different sections that we can do and usually DO do in negotiated jobs, I usually just leave those out to keep a low bid and only inlcude them if I'm specifically asked. I'm not sure how in depth they go when comparing apples to apples with sub bids.

And Shazz, we have been doing Versico TPO for the last year and a lot of it, but have recently been signed with Carlisle.


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## Pie in the Sky

Cuda, 
I understand your frustration. Two things an architect’s plans and specs should never do except in extremely rare cases is direct means and methods and divide scope. Reason being is it opens up liability. Ultimately for the GC is the contractor. He is responsible for the Work being completed. He needs to divide it up and you should specifically exclude things in your bid like Grump suggested. "wood nailers and rough carpentry by others" this can be easily worked out in the prebid walk through. Ask at the pre bid if there have been any addendums to the bid package. If not, any addendums that come out after the bid must be sent to you, that’s the GC's responsibility. and if its public money, and you didn’t receive an addendum you technically could contest. 
Getting to know your bidders was great advice too... When I was in MT there was a certain contractor who would bring two envelopes to every bid opening. He would decide which envelope to turn in depending on who showed up. He knew his business and basically had a monopoly in his little peice of MT.


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## 1985gt

New construction here is hard to come by, there is a couple people who lock it down pretty good, plus it is a huge PITA./ Expect a lot of work here for two days, go away for two days come back ect. Depending on the project of course.

R&R is 90% of our business. And I wish the other contractors around here we that predictable. A couple are fairly predictable, but it's not uncommon to see a few of them 200k under one bid and 200k over the next Yikes!


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## Cuda

I see. Many times around here though there are no pre bid meetings or walk throughs, in those cases when you can't get any answers as to who they want bidding what, should I submit multiple bids?

Also, we are approved installers for most manufacturers. When there is a project bidding that has multiple approved manufacturers for the roof system, should I submit a bid for each roof system that we can install? I just turn in one bid right now, but I did lose a bid a while back that I bid a Carlisle system and another roofer bid a Firestone system. Our prices were very close, pretty sure we even came in a little under the other guy, but the owner chose the other roofer because he prefered the Firestone system over Carlisle.


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## AnyMonkey

I would think that you can not submit more than one bid but sometimes the bid forms will allow you to provide an alternate price but the system you are using must be pre-approved... at least around here anyways. Obviously if you are submitting to GC's you want to find out all of the GC's who are there and submit to all of them...... GC work is very much like you just said... it almost always goes to their buddy.


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## Cuda

Is public bidding even worth it then for subs?


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## 1985gt

Cuda said:


> I see. Many times around here though there are no pre bid meetings or walk throughs, in those cases when you can't get any answers as to who they want bidding what, should I submit multiple bids?


There has to be someone who can give you answers, and architect, ect. As far as bidding what, if your bidding to a GC then bid what ever part of the project you want, just split it up if there is major components like facisa systems, ect.

Just qualify what you are and are not including. 



Cuda said:


> Also, we are approved installers for most manufacturers. When there is a project bidding that has multiple approved manufacturers for the roof system, should I submit a bid for each roof system that we can install? I just turn in one bid right now, but I did lose a bid a while back that I bid a Carlisle system and another roofer bid a Firestone system. Our prices were very close, pretty sure we even came in a little under the other guy, but the owner chose the other roofer because he prefered the Firestone system over Carlisle.


We run in to that and no you should only put in one bid, some times we shop around for prices other times we just use old reliable. This seems kind of odd because if the owner wanted firestone, they should have just specd firestone.


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## AnyMonkey

Cuda said:


> Is public bidding even worth it then for subs?


 
yes if you have a GC that likes you


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## Cuda

That's how I felt about it too 1985gt, I would have quoted Firestone too if I'd have known that was the prefference. The spec's looked outdated too, maybe that was the problem. They had U.S. intec on the list of approved manufacturers and I was told GAF bought them out 10 years ago, so they don't even exist anymore.

The GC relationship seems to be my biggest problem, I just can't unwedge them from their current subs. I don't know why, we do great work and a lot of it, but it's all negotiated with owners


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## AnyMonkey

I honestly prefer not to deal with them anyways... our area has enough re and re work to ignore them.... although we just hired an estimator to work with the GC's because I wont.


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## Cuda

Lol. I'm starting to feel the same way! 

Maybe I should just say to hell with the GC's and only bid project that are straight to the owner


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## AnyMonkey

usually more profit..... and you get paid in a reasonable amount of time.


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## Cuda

I'm really trying to wreak some havoc on the commercial roofs in my area. Is there more productive way I should be doing this instead of public bidding then? We just started doing commercial last year and almost every one has been a referral from someone we did a job for before. Trying to be more proactive with them but it's difficult to get in contact with the right person.


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## 1985gt

Door knock on property managers, facility managers and anyone who has a big warehouse. 

Some of the best and worse are packing plants, they hold on to their contractors, but they can be a pain to work for, but generally you can get them on maintenance contracts and that helps in the winter. 

Same with property managers or real estate people. They generally value their contractors, and the work is much more clean then with a packing plant. Same with manufacturing facilities. We have about 1/2 dozen we service I can tell you we are the ones they call for leaks like the 3+ inches we got over the last few days and we are top priority on reroofs although generally they do have to get bids, but if your in good with who ever is in charge of plant maintenance your bid has a way of making it to the top even if it's higher. 

One rather large manufacturing plant let us bid on a project 10 or so years ago, small roof area maybe 100 sq, when we were close to done with that section they asked for a bid for the next, same thing happened again, we were at this plant for a little over 1 1/2 years. To this day we still get projects, go bid it, a week or two later go do the job. The maintenance is the best leaks pay very well.

I should be doing the same TBH instead of bidding this public crap.


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## Cuda

Do you win a good ammount of public bids 1985gt?


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