# Conflicting info regarding recover when insulation is wet?



## john960bell

This is a huge issue in terms of cost.

Some say never do it:

http://www.commercialinnovations.com/files/101 Reasons not to roof over wet insulation.pdf

(1986 study)

Others say you can, no problem with certain caveats, and it will dry out over time.
(2001 study)

http://www.rci-online.org/interface/2001-09-desjarlais-sheahan-garrigus.pdf

In any event the practice does seem to be quite common.

In the case at hand, bid to recover is $2.50 psf.

Complete tear off (BUR, insulation and lightweight) down to metal deck, $6.00 psf.

So huge cost difference.

IR showed moisture intrusion over 30%.

The studies I found are old.. anything more recent?

Thanks in advance, for any comments on this.

​


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## Grumpy

You should NEVER roof over a wet roof. 

Where are you located?

First off how many layers do you have now? Most codes I am familiar with prevent more than 2 layers of roofing material from being installed. Having said that, it's not uncommon for us to tear off 3, 4 even sometimes 5 layers. 

You're always going to get a better roof if you tear off. Having said that, on a low slope roof, I do not have a problem with a lay over assuming the substrate is intact and the existing roof isn't totally beat to heck making for a lumpy new roof (even with cover board). When I am laying over I always install one way breather vents, even though most single ply manufacturers don't require. Also an absolute must would be to tear out and replace any wet insulation. 

In my proposals I will usually give a per sheet or per sq ft price for wet insulation replacement, and will use insulation of equal thickness, normally polyisocyanurate. When trying to make a comparison you must factor in the cost of this insulation replacement to the bottom line. I will say most contractors will rape you on the extras, knowing there is a large volume of insulation to replace will jack up their mark up incredibly on the insulation replacement.


I think the problem here though is you are just looking at the sale price and not factoring in everything the entire job will cost you (extras). I also think you are not factoring cost of ownership, sometimes referred to as life cycle cost. How long will the cheap roof last, how long will the "expensive" roof last? 

When I am meeting customers there are a number of issues I NEED to discuss so that I may write a specification and figure a price. One of the first things we discuss is "How long do you want the roof to last?" Roofing specifications are anywhere from 10-30 years. As you can imagine a 30 year specification will require more up front investment. However upfront investment aside, a 30 year roof will usually cost less than a 15 year roof when looking at the full life cycle cost of ownership. In other words it's cheaper to install a 30-year roof once than to install a 15 year roof twice. Also I do not know of any specifications in excess of 15 years which don't require a tear off. In other words if you want your roof to last longer than 15 years, tear it off. If you plan on staying in the building, don't bother with a specification less than 20 years. 


If you do choose to recover/lay over here is my advice. A cover board and single ply membrane. If existing roofing membrane is single ply, cut it into sections to prevent a double vapor barrier. If the existing roof is asphalt based or tar based some kind of separation must be installed to prevent contact of membrane to asphalt or tar. I like the one way breather vents on a lay over, I always include them. 


FWIW $250 seems real low even for a recover/lay over, but I know pricing is regional. In my area I'd be scared of what the roofer forgot.


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## TechGuy

I agree with all that grumpy said.

We are at 3.50 per 1 1/2 of fill. When doing a layer over we normally use a 1/2" fiber board as a cover board no matter what condition the existing insulation is in.


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## 1985gt

Both prices are pretty cheap. Never lay over wet roofing/insulation unless you replace the wet. Like grumpy said if we do a lay over we always include a sf price to replace insulation.


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## john960bell

Thanks for the replies.


This is investment property in the Southeast. Cannot predict how long we will own it - maybe 18 months maybe 30 years, so we need to balance longevity versus cost. We don't want to be redoing the roof again & again if we continue to own it. On the other hand, should we decide to sell, a premium roof is a waste of money. You don't get a premium price for a property just because you put a premium roof on.


Existing roof is BUR, age unknown (anywhere from 20 – 40 yrs old), over perlite, over lightweight, over steel deck. Has had off and on minor leaks for a few years. Occupant is a second hand store.


The recover bid was a 45 mil TPO over fiberboard, 15 year warranty. This may not be an option anymore since we got the result of the moisture scan. I know TPO is suboptimal, and would prefer the Sarna PVC, as the cost is usually not much more, but sometimes for whatever reason it IS a lot more (like this case).
Consultant has recommended core cuts & pull tests on lightweight and deck. If possible, only tear off BUR & insulation, keep lightweight, then install new BUR with vents. Says it won’t be possible to get manufacturer warranty with wet insulation. Other option tear off down to metal. Consensus seems to be not to go over wet insulation.


But, what about the 2001 RCI article? http://www.rci-online.org/interface/2001-09-desjarlais-sheahan-garrigus.pdf.


Also, looking through my files, several years ago we did get a 15 yr Sarna with warranty, recover over BUR on another building, no moisture scan required! (cost about $3.75 psf for a smaller job). So what am I missing?


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## Grumpy

I suppose you need to decide now if you are going to keep or sell. Having said that I can tell you in my experience investment property owners tend to always go with the cheapest option because you are right, nobody cares about the roof, only care about the bling (what they can see).

PVC membrane material costs will be 50%-100% more for a good 60 mil PVC vs a 60 mil tpo. Glues and accessories cost slightly more for pvc vs tpo. 


Core cuts would be an absolute must if I were even bidding the job. How else do you know exactly the "geology" of the roofing assembly? Pull tests are a must for any concrete or gypsum deck, when mechanically attaching. This brings up a good question, what are the guys proposing to use for fasteners into the lightweight concrete? 

Sorry I am not going to read the article that is 6 pages long. Can you give me a summary? Regardless of what it says you won't find me going over a wet roof. Why? because I know I will instantly and immediately void the manufacturers warranty, open my self to litigation with both the property owner as well as the manufacturer, and most likely lose my manufacturer certification. In short, I'll go bankrupt with one failed job because I wanted to cut a few corners and save the property owner some money. They'll conveniently forget how much they saved when their lawyer is taking me to the cleaners. 


In regards to your other job... No moisture scan required, by whom? Did the roof perform a series of core cuts in a 10' grid pattern to determine the presence of moisture, or did the contractor just skip it? I'm not familiar with sarna specs, but the specs I am familiar with all want moisture testing of some kind before recovering. The manufacturers I am familiar with will not issue a warranty unless you replace wet insulation. 

In regards to pricing on your other job, first you must remember that it was years ago and pricing has gone nuts in the last 3 years. Nuts, I tell you! Also, scope of work and quality of material will dictate price. No two jobs are ever the same, what works on one of your buildings might not work on another of your buildings. PROFESSIONAL roofers don't price a job by the square foot, that's only a small part of it. The guys who go out of business every few years do often price a job by the square foot and almost always lose their asses. A professional roofing contractor will make a materials list to determine their cost then apply labor making their best educated guess as to how long the job may take. A 100,000 sqft industrial facility with piping and curbs everywhere will take alot longer to install than a 200,000 warehouse with only a couple of curbs. Thus the labor cost per square foot may be double for the more difficult job. Tearing off will always cost more than laying over, and then don't forget to factor the insulation apples to apples. Tapered insulation will jack the cost way up. thicker insulation = more money. How is the membrane being attached, mechanically attached or fully adhered? How is the insulation being attached, in adhesive or mechanically attached? If mechanically attached what kinds of fasteners are being used, how long, predrilling required? If set in adhesive, how much adhesive and how many layers of insulation? 


All of this plays a hand in factoring the price. I tried to come up with a price sheet for my sales reps to use to simplify the estimation process, but it just became too daunting of a task to simplify. As a roofing contractor we all have our standard go-to systems but throw in one curve ball and your price list goes into the trash, that's why it's simply better to just price it the hard way since every job throws a couple of curve balls. Like I said, no two jobs are alike. 


If you don't mind scan and post the proposals. I'd like to see all 3. 


The last thing I'll leave you with on this reply is this; It is human nature to always want to buy cheap. I can give you a cheap roof, or I can give you a good roof, but I can not give you a cheap AND good roof at the same time.


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## 1985gt

Damn Grumpy does your hands hurt? :yes:

I would like to add a couple of things, you have perlite on a light weight deck, this IMHO not even an option to cover over. They say (I don't know who they is and they are wrong) that perlite will dry back out over time. I've only seen really dry or really wet perlite. 

Now for the light weight deck. Ideas on what kind of light weight it is? It could be light weight concrete, it could be light weight insulated concrete, could be Gyp. If its light weight insulated or gyp, you might as well forget its even there, use a #15 fastener and attach to the metal deck. If it is light weight concrete and this pertains to all of the above but how thick? If you only have a toping of 2" or so drilling in to the light weight will be difficult and more then likely people will blow though it and the metal. Making a #14 or #15 fastener pretty much worthless as far as pull out values go. If it is thicker 3" or more attach to the concrete but get a pull out test and use the right fasteners, #14 or 15 for concrete or a light weight gyp fastener for insulated or gyp deck.

Another problem is the perlite will be adhered down to the deck with hot asphalt. During tear off depending on the deck type chucks of the deck may come off. Not a huge deal but something to tell your roofer and have him answer. 

Another question, whats wrong with a good asphalt roof? How old is the one you have on the building, it may be a good alternative, a mineral surface mod bit with white or gray granuals, no it wouldn't reflect the same as a PVC or TPO but its an option.

In any case a job like this for us anyway would not be a 200-600 a square job, even screwing down a 1.5" iso and Fully adhered EPDM. Just for the simple fact of the deck type. I'm guessing everything spec'd to you is a mechanically attached for those prices.

FYI I wouldn't spec anything in 45 mil save for a ballasted EPDM, even then we use 60 mil. I don't see a super cost savings between the two. Was it a Fully Adhered or Mechanically attached roof? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the 15 year was a membrane only warranty.


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## Grumpy

Yep GT, that's why I wanted to see the quotes because there are alot of unanswered questions which obviously have a bearing on the price. 

Personally I prefer to use insulation adhesives when it comes to concrete or gypsum decks. It makes us less competitive on price but is a hell of a lot easier to install.


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## 1985gt

Grumpy said:


> Yep GT, that's why I wanted to see the quotes because there are alot of unanswered questions which obviously have a bearing on the price.
> 
> Personally I prefer to use insulation adhesives when it comes to concrete or gypsum decks. It makes us less competitive on price but is a hell of a lot easier to install.



You should buy that old kettle from us, cheaper then screws and adhesives and a hell of a lot faster. I'll even throw in a pallet of kegs. All I need to know is if you want the 150 gal or the 175 or 200, I also have a 400 gallon we would part with being as none of them have moved for a year now. Stupid single plys.


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## Grumpy

I'll pay you $1. I have no intention of using anything that contains the words "hot" and "tar" in the same sentence, unless it's followed by "tear off" or "patch".


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## Billy Luttrell

1985gt said:


> You should buy that old kettle from us, cheaper then screws and adhesives and a hell of a lot faster. I'll even throw in a pallet of kegs. All I need to know is if you want the 150 gal or the 175 or 200, I also have a 400 gallon we would part with being as none of them have moved for a year now. Stupid single plys.



I might be in the market for a pumper...how much pipe and how many kegs you gonna toss in? :whistling:


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## john960bell

_"It could be light weight concrete, it could be light weight insulated concrete"

_Sorry if this is a dumb question but is there a difference? I assume its not structural lightweight. One (expensive) suggestion was tear off lightweight & put polyiso insulation in its place, over the steel deck.

What the consultant has tentatively suggested (subject to pull tests) is an old school built up roof, over the existing lightweight with vents. Said you need a BUR to get the proper venting system. I'm still trying to educate myself why. I assume he means venting felt on the bottom, which you couldn't do on a single ply.

I have some other buildings BUR from mid 1980's, original construction buildings. Some are still good now, others have been recovered. They seem to last minimum 18 years before needing recover... some much longer.

So if cost effective, & properly installed BUR could work just fine.

Having said that one contractor (who has the lowest bid on TPO) seemed to think BUR would be a labor intensive PITA to install compared to single ply. Any ways to effectively vent single ply?


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## Grumpy

If you ask me, as a roofer, I tell my customers hot tar is a dinosaur. I tell my customers you can't give a way a hot tar kettle these days. Then I tell my customers why, and in no situation is it ever related to the quality of the roofing system. It's a dangerous labor intensive roof to install. The insurance rates are through the roof for hot work, no pun intended. 

Therefore we've made the decision to eliminate BUR from our service offerings. I feel, if you want the very best roofing system available, look at PVC (not all PVC membranes are equal). Having said that, at the end of the day the roofer is more important than the roof. What I mean is somewhat complex. On flat roofing we isntall primarily thermoplastic membranes (PVC & TPO), we're good at it, it's what we do, we go a great job. Give us a kettle and mop and I can almost guarantee we'll make mistakes. Hot just isn't our specialty. On the flip side, give a hot heat (slang for hot tar roofer) a seam welder and a probe and he's probably not going to know what to do with them. Oh, he may know the basics, like we do with hot, but that doesn't mean you will get the very best tip top roof. You simply will not get the best roof possible when you take someone out of their element (specialty).


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## Pie in the Sky

Can we see the consultants report? 

If this roof is that wet, and its lightweight insulating concrete, you may end up ripping it all off. I know people put in vents alot but i personally do not believe they are very effective. I have probably seen 30 or 40 vents removed with only a few showing minor drying. 

Having a good consultant is your best bet. There are so many details you need on a job like this its tough to say. Plus we all have our own way to do it.


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## Grumpy

Yes please do share these reports and proposals. It's such a small price to pay for our free advice.


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## 1985gt

Billy Luttrell said:


> I might be in the market for a pumper...how much pipe and how many kegs you gonna toss in?


What size are you looking for? I doubt the boss would sale the big one the other 3 might be for sale. Doubt it would be worth driving all they way up here for one but let me know and I'll figure out a price. No pipe or kegs, Pipe is too damn expensive to give away and the last time I got a quote for kegs it was $40 a keg. I may have a barrel of pitch I'll give away though other wise it will be come part of the parking lot. 



john960bell said:


> "It could be light weight concrete, it could be light weight insulated concrete"
> 
> Sorry if this is a dumb question but is there a difference? I assume its not structural lightweight. One (expensive) suggestion was tear off lightweight & put polyiso insulation in its place, over the steel deck.


There is a huge difference to the installer. If its over a steel deck it can go either way. If you have or had a lot of leaks it may need to be taken off. Light weight insulated is easier to remove then just regular lightweight. 




Grumpy said:


> If you ask me, as a roofer, I tell my customers hot tar is a dinosaur. I tell my customers you can't give a way a hot tar kettle these days. Then I tell my customers why, and in no situation is it ever related to the quality of the roofing system. It's a dangerous labor intensive roof to install. The insurance rates are through the roof for hot work, no pun intended.
> 
> Therefore we've made the decision to eliminate BUR from our service offerings. I feel, if you want the very best roofing system available, look at PVC (not all PVC membranes are equal). Having said that, at the end of the day the roofer is more important than the roof. What I mean is somewhat complex. On flat roofing we isntall primarily thermoplastic membranes (PVC & TPO), we're good at it, it's what we do, we go a great job. Give us a kettle and mop and I can almost guarantee we'll make mistakes. Hot just isn't our specialty. On the flip side, give a hot heat (slang for hot tar roofer) a seam welder and a probe and he's probably not going to know what to do with them. Oh, he may know the basics, like we do with hot, but that doesn't mean you will get the very best tip top roof. You simply will not get the best roof possible when you take someone out of their element (specialty).


BUR's when installed correctly could possibly be the best roof system, but they are expensive and few people anymore can swing a mop properly. As far as your comment of hand a hot guy  a heat welder I can assure you you could hand any one of our mopers a mop or a heat welder and he can preform great using either of them. On the same note we have a lot more guys we can hand a welder to then a mop. IMO Heat welding is easier then moping. That's a good thing, I can trust a lot more people with it as apposed to a mop. Trust me no one likes getting "licked" with a mop.



PIE said:


> If this roof is that wet, and its lightweight insulating concrete, you may end up ripping it all off. I know people put in vents alot but i personally do not believe they are very effective. I have probably seen 30 or 40 vents removed with only a few showing minor drying.


Agreed vent's IMO are a novelty item in that case. 




PIE said:


> Having a good consultant is your best bet. There are so many details you need on a job like this its tough to say. Plus we all have our own way to do it.


On a side note I have to meet with one tomorrow. I can't say I'm very happy about it considering the circumstances.


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## Pie in the Sky

GT- Let me know how it goes with the Consultant. If I can help in any way let me know. I can def offer free advice if it helps.


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## Hutch

Hey Gt, what're you asking for the 150 you have up for sale? You can msg me if you don't want to turn this post into the roofers eBay...


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## Grumpy

Hutch said:


> Hey Gt, what're you asking for the 150 you have up for sale? You can msg me if you don't want to turn this post into the roofers eBay...


I already offered $1, you're gonna have to beat that!


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## Hutch

There goes Grumpy out bidding everyone again... Haha:no:


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## 1985gt

Pie in the Sky said:


> GT- Let me know how it goes with the Consultant. If I can help in any way let me know. I can def offer free advice if it helps.


Thanks, this guy was ok, specs were all written buy the manufacture, so basically the guy was a extra body. Lets just say I walked out of a 2 1/2 hour pre bid more confused about the project and we have bid all areas of this roof/facility before so much in the fact I didn't even have to measure or take pictures. 

Its going to be a long next few weeks and I already need a drink. I should have made the plant engineer buy. :yes:


Oh did I hear the bidding for the kettle go up to $10.00? I'll see what the boss wants to part with it for. Funny thing actually we had a guy from an equipment company come in this morning at like 7:15 (note to sales guys, don't show up at 7:15 we are fairly busy) anyway they sell equipment all over the US, we asked about kettles and he said he's sure he could find a buyer for it. Only was charging 10% if the item sold. I'll do some checking and let you guys know. It may be a bit though since the boss and I got more then a bit going on right now.


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## Grumpy

1985gt said:


> Lets just say I walked out of a 2 1/2 hour pre bid more confused about the project


Isn't that how ALL pre-bids go? I leave every pre-bid asking myself "WHY does he want it done like that?!" I'm convinced 85% of the time it's to eliminate half the unintelligent bidders. The other 15% can be chalked up to mine or his ignorance.


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## 1985gt

Grumpy said:


> Isn't that how ALL pre-bids go? I leave every pre-bid asking myself "WHY does he want it done like that?!" I'm convinced 85% of the time it's to eliminate half the unintelligent bidders. The other 15% can be chalked up to mine or his ignorance.


This particular situation is a very large facility will a high amount of roof traffic and grease they spec'ed a TPO system, this is on a place where asphalt and gravel is the ONLY thing that has ever stood up over time. 

What ever the manufacture spec'ed it, they want us to bid it. I will, if we get the job install it and watch it fail in >10 years. 

I even tried to explain that to the consultant, he knows we have been working at that place for years, the manufacture also make hot and torch rolled goods. The rep even came in a month or so earlier and asked us about it, we told him what we thought. 

At this point I'm just like what ever, I haven't figured it up yet but its split in to two bids both being some where in the 600+ sq for each bid multiple sections. Basically I'm going to be doing two weeks worth of work figuring this up only to have them come back and break it down in to smaller sections. Or I could just throw out a price of 5 Mil and be done with it. Sad thing is at this point I'm not sure how far off that number would be of the total project.


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## Pie in the Sky

When I was in design I always made a pre-bid walkthough mandatory. Because some bidders would not go to the site. Then it was a nightmare trying to get what was specified and they bid done. At least everyone knows what they are getting into with a walkthrough. 

All questions should be written down, answered, and sent out to all parties as an addendum to the contract prior to the bid. If done correctly the prebid walkthough is perfect because it solves problems before the bid goes out. If its fixed before the Bid it cost one price, if its a change order its 3-4 times as much. 

But thts just me, I like to think I know what I am doing, although Im sure some of you guys would prove to me otherwise. Thats what the prebid is for, to fix my Eff-ups before the job is bid.


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## 1985gt

Pre bid walk through are great. We go to 95% of the pre bids we bid on. You get to see little things others won't. I do like when they make them mandatory also, that why you know who your bidding against and in some cases even bid at all.


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## Grumpy

Addendums are the reason I hate doing bid work. Dealing with someone else's Effed up spec which I know is wrong, is another reason I hate doing bid work. My ego is the 3rd and final nail in the coffin, after all I know more than everyone else does  

I REALLY don't like being a sub.


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## 1985gt

80-90% of our bid work is just for roofing so no general is needed. I don't mind being a sub just depends on the general you work for and or who they put as the super on the job.


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## Grumpy

I don't like not being in control. I understand what you are saying, if the GC is cool and the super is cool, the job is cool. I will not do anything I feel is wrong, regardless of what it is. At the end of the day it is my reputation and responsibility, not the gc or the super who will testify in court that I should have known better. If I don't have control of my jobs I walk away. I've seldom ever seen a spec I didn't re-write. 

BTW consultants and GC's same difference for the purposes of this conversation.


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## 1985gt

Most everything is spec'd off the manufactures drawings. Around here it's almost always Firestone. Makes no matter who's they are if its wrong its wrong and you let he architect know and they change it if need be.


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## Grumpy

The game most guys play is hoping to see flaws, bidding cheap and once awarded they submit a book of change orders to fix those flaws, and have all their markup in the change orders. In other words they always bid to spec and bank on the fact that there are always mistakes.

That's not the way I run my business but seems to be a pretty common practice on large bid work. Me? I'd be way too afraid of having to fight for those change orders and what would I do if not awarded. I never want to argue over money after the contract is signed and try very very very hard to always be as upfront as possible about all costs. It's harder that way, it really is, but I sleep a little better because I have a solid road map on each job with very few unknowns.


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## Pie in the Sky

We call them "Change order Artists".


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## Grumpy

LOL


It does take smarts to know when the specifier screwed up. It does take balls to play that game and smile submitting a pile of change order. But it's a wee bit on the unethical side if you ask me. But these are the guys without morals and ethics making all the money in business. Stupid dumb catholic school education. <grumbles> .


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## Grumpy

LOL again, I just saw the name on the dingy, "original contract". hahahah sweeet.


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## Grumpy

I'm still waiting for the original to post the contracts and consultant report... HINT HINT


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## 1985gt

We generally never get change orders. If there is a problem with the spec it's brought up before the bid so the architect can release an addendum. I'm sure I've pissed people off but I really don't care, I don't want to bid a job that specs a "1/2 inch coverboard". I'll ask the question and the architect can submit and addendum to the job so we are all bidding apples to apples (allegedly). I will admit though one of the projects we are on now we had to get a change order, only because the facility had additional requirements around the staging area. It was not in the specs so it was a justified change order. If it had been it would be been to bad so sad for us. Dealing with some places these change orders can take for ever, its been almost a month since we submitted ours and still have not heard anything back from them about it yet. We went ahead and did as they wanted other wise we could not have started the job but if it doesn't come through when we are done with the job we will have to fight for it, and I'm not to keen on that.


@grumpy I think we scared him off. :yes:

@Pie That's a nice boat. Do you think I could borrow it from you for my up coming vacation?


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## TechGuy

I rarely bid a spec job. Only times I do is if we have a relationship already with the customer. For instance if they are doing an addition with a GC and the customer would prefer us as to install their roof.

I sold a 2 million dollar job we started a couple months ago that was a spec job. Complete roof replacement. We had worked and service this facilty for 15 years but they higher ups hired a consultant against the local's suggestion to let us write the spec and put it out for bid.

Well we got the job anyway but like most constultants they have no hands on experience and just have the book smarts. I could have saved them 300k on the front side but we are following the spec they paid to have written.

Well we show up and and get started. It's requring complete deck replacement. So after we mobilized and loaded the job it's at a complete stand still now. They are having trouble spending the additional 1.2 million. 

This is one case I'm glad the consultant is involved. I would have missed the bad deck myself since it looks good from the underside and is covered with insulation. The owner's are directing their frustration to the consulting firm and not me.

It's been over 6 weeks and i'm sitting here now working up the third option to replace the decking.

Fun stuff I tell you.


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## Pie in the Sky

I wish that were my boat... Heres a picture of me and my boat from last weekend.

Your welcome to borrow it, but you have to replace the extruded when it gets saturated... :yes:


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## 1985gt

@ Tech Guy, We had a simmilar thing happen to us, been doing work at a place for 20-30 years, then they bring in some new guy and he starts looking at other roofers, now they are bringing in consultants. Real quick figure off the top of my head and both of the areas they want to do will be more then 3 million, it will never happen they wont spend the money, last time we bid to them straight for one section is was somewhere around 250K and they didn't put the money in then. What ever I say.

@ Pie Mind if I modify it a bit? I was going to add about 6" of width and 2' of length to the pontoons, that way I can take the wife along. I'll coat the extruded with with some karnak #19 should last for years then. :thumbup:


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