# Scaffolding



## English Roofer (Dec 26, 2008)

Hi Guys, I have noticed by looking at roofs you have done in the States that there doesn't seem to be alot of saffolding around where you are working, here in the U.K. health and safety insists we have scaffolding to just under facia height.
I have seen boards that are fixed across ladders (used to be known as cripplers here)and also on accross shingle and slate roofs,sorry i dont know there name,is this the norm or have i missed something?
Cheers
Dave


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## Ed the Roofer (Sep 15, 2008)

It takes too long to set up pipe scaffolding, especially if you were going to be running it around the entire perimeter of the house.

The toe boards hooked onto the roof hooks work well, if installed correctly. The correct OSHA name for the roof hooks is, "Roof Cleats", by the way, but I have Never heard anyone cal them that.

The ones that stretch between 2 ladders are commonly called walk planks and can be made of Aluminum or Wood planks, resting on top of the ladder-jacks for support and the proper height.

How about if you take some photos of the safety set-ups that you use in the UK and some of us can do the same, to share safety lessons?

Ed


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## English Roofer (Dec 26, 2008)

Hi Ed, had a quick look though my photos and most nearly all of them are of the roof, but i found these as follows,we have to scaffold right around the building when we re-roof, the only time i dont is if the roof is a fairly flat pitch but this is rare.
You would not want to be caught working with out scaffold but the Health and safety dept, they would close you down!


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## Ed the Roofer (Sep 15, 2008)

That is what we call Pipe Scaffolding around here.

I own 4-6 sections of them with some hoisting accessories and planks to span the widths, plus the levelers and wheels.

That is just One option allowed by OSHA here. I am surprised you are not allowed variations for fall arrest protection other than that.

Ed


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Here is the thing. Scaffolding is sometimes necessarya but usually not. It'd take more time to setup the scaffolding than to actually roof that side of the house. However on a steep roof you have to start off a scaffold, and on those jobs we use ladder scaffold which sets up quick attached to the ladders. 

Fall protection of some kind is necessary and usually slide guards are the best. Slide guards are essentially a 2x6 fastened to the roof using a bracket which is fastened under the roofing material. Technically youa re supposed to use something like this on each and every roof. I talked to one guy who says he does, even on garages and I laughed at him and asked if he's ever inspected one of his jobs in progress. It's a good thing but who's going to slide on a 3/12? 


I had one customer mad at me on a siding job because we were delaying about the weather. When he suggested we setup and tarp off the scaffolding and use a heater, "like the masons do" I suggested he pay me for the equiment rental, setup and take down time as well as propane for heat." He decided to wait it out.


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## English Roofer (Dec 26, 2008)

Im afraid it has been drummed in to us now, also we dont set up the scaffold, a scaffolder does, he has to have a up to date ticket(meaning he is certified to errect the scaffold) you can set up a tower scaffold(aluminium) but not a pipe one.
When we work on new builds the scaffold is but up in stages and all trades use this,but when we re-roof it is up to us and it is dam expensive, an average house would be in the region of £800-1000 ($1160-1450)
from the photos i have seen of the houses you guys build that would be alot more, the cost is passed on to the customer.
All i can say in defence of this system is what price do you but on safety?
If some one has some photos of the roof cleat method i would love to see it.
Cheers
Dave


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

We often use pedestrian scaffolds in the City when the building is right up at the side walk. You can't close a side walk, you just can't. So we have to protect those who choose to walk under the construction zone instead of crossing the street. 

Saftey has no prive Dave, I mean it's priceless... But when we are competing against guys on a regular basis who pay their guys cash under the table and don't have workmans' compensation... How much extra non-mandatory saftey can we throw on the job? 

Would scaffolding be better? Yes, maybe one some jobs. Is it absolutely necessary, well maybe on some jobs. However there are other methods that are just as or nearlya s good which take alot less time to setup. Would I like to do this on every job? Sure but already being $1,000 to $2,000 higher than many many of my competitors I am not sure I could throw another $1,000 ontop of that. 

I'll go through my archive and see if I can find some "setup" pics for you.


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## English Roofer (Dec 26, 2008)

Hi Grumpy, yes i see where your comming from with the price and against a guy who employs cash guys, i tend to use the same crew to do my re-tile or re-slates and i know there friends and family so it would be difficult for me if ,god forbid, something happened to them while working on one of my roofs.
Dont get me wrong, 60% of my work is done off a ladder and a cat ladder (hook lader)and even that can be scarey at times but you take your time and surcure everything thats possible to slip.
To be honest the re-roofs we quote a price for will need scaffolding, so the next roofer who also quotes will need scaffolding too,so its a fairly level palying field.
The ones who tend not to use scaffolding seem to be the pikeys(gypsies)
and you cant price against them because you will be bankrupt be for the years out!
Health and safety in this country has gone sooooo over the top its untrue, you cant fart with out someone comming to check you have a certificate
for doing it right! but i understand why working at height is there number 1 target, the top accident rate in this country is falling from height so were target No.1


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## Ed the Roofer (Sep 15, 2008)

English Roofer said:


> Hi Grumpy, yes i see where your comming from with the price and against a guy who employs cash guys, i tend to use the same crew to do my re-tile or re-slates and i know there friends and family so it would be difficult for me if ,god forbid, something happened to them while working on one of my roofs.
> 
> Dont get me wrong, 60% of *my work is done off a ladder and a cat ladder (hook lader)*and even that can be scarey at times but you take your time and surcure everything thats possible to slip.
> 
> ...


If we are thinking about the same equipment, they are commonly called "Chicken Ladders" over here.

Ed


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## tinner666 (Oct 28, 2008)

I get up about 60' or more, and I like scaffolding then too.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

tinner666 said:


> I get up about 60' or more, and I like scaffolding then too.


If we've got to do 60' for more than a repair we like to use man lifts. 

I bid a 3 story 30 square tile mansard on a historic building for about $120k and am meeting the board on the 7th hopefully to close the sale. It's down to myself and one other, but they have more tile experience so I have to really WoW the board. Anyways the point is, we bid to do the whole thing on a cherry picker, with pedestrian scaffold in one 18' area so as not to block the sidewalk.


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## tinner666 (Oct 28, 2008)

Grumpy said:


> If we've got to do 60' for more than a repair we like to use man lifts.
> 
> I bid a 3 story 30 square tile mansard on a historic building for about $120k and am meeting the board on the 7th hopefully to close the sale. It's down to myself and one other, but they have more tile experience so I have to really WoW the board. Anyways the point is, we bid to do the whole thing on a cherry picker, with pedestrian scaffold in one 18' area so as not to block the sidewalk.


That's the way to do it Grumpy. I would have bid and planned that the same way.


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## English Roofer (Dec 26, 2008)

So do you guys have a 60ft ladder to reach this height?
We use Cherry pickers and sissor lifts as well, but on the whole use walk though scaffolding for the side walk with over head protection so if anything falls hits that first.


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## tinner666 (Oct 28, 2008)

60' ladders reach 54' if I'm not mistaken. Heavy suckers!!!!


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## English Roofer (Dec 26, 2008)

God i bet they are Tinner! is it a 2/3 man job errecting them?
Ive got some triple aluminion ladders that go to about 35ft and there heavy enough.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

We rent 60' when we need them and always budget 3 men into the job, even though 2 are usually standing around picking their private parts, erm I mean "holding the ladder". 2 strong men can do it, Heck 1 strong man can do a 40 but it's not irregular for someone to ask for help with one.


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## tinner666 (Oct 28, 2008)

2 men sure make it easier. One man has a hard time flipping it down off the ladder rack.

We were on a job once and the ladders had to be moved periodicly along a 60' wall. The others wouldn't touch the extended 60. I'd shift it so the top slid about 6', pick it up and run the bottom under the top. After we had finished for the day, I grabbed our 40 and almost tossed it over my head, it was so light!


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## Ed the Roofer (Sep 15, 2008)

I bought and still own 2 of the 60 foot extension ladders for the Queen Anne with the Bell Tower Turret.

I got the rental price and figured about 5 days for 2 ladders and it came up to more than half of what it would have cost to buy them, so I added the equipment fee into the bid, so that job sort of paid for them.

By the way, it was Industrial Ladder Supply in Villa Park, that rented and sold them.

They are frigging heavy and it took 3 men to "Safely" set it up. On was at the top of the Bell Tower Turret pulling a rope and the others on the ground.

Ed


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## OUTLAW (Feb 16, 2009)

I own a "60 footer". Its max working height is actually 48'. It takes three full grown men to operate it safely. I paid $1300. Best thing about having it is that most roofers don't. It helps us get jobs that others can't/won't.


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## tomstruble (Jan 19, 2009)

Its so much easier to work when you have nice staging like that English.You can work like a ''gentelman ''as we say here


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## English Roofer (Dec 26, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> Its so much easier to work when you have nice staging like that English.You can work like a ''gentelman ''as we say here


Yes an English gentelman sitting on his expensive scaffold having a brew(Tea) lol, it is so much easyier having a safe working platform to work from and quicker i think, i have just brought a quick lock scaffold and used it for the first time this week, although the roof is a shallow pitch i do think it looks more profesional.
Cheers
Dave


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## tinner666 (Oct 28, 2008)

I bid one for scaffolding last week. They laughed and said to get lost. No clue how they'll do it.
5 blocks form OSHA, on a major intersection, sidewalks directly below on exposed side, New roof on other 3 sides, with one of those sides a patio for tenants.

Need to remove the concrete roof and get new tile up there. 50' to gutter. Can't use alley either.

I figured it for scaffold all around, trash chute, etc. BTW, a main entrance is directly below the exposed area and will need a tunnel for fire regulations if not standard entrance duties.

New wood on concrete in the B I G, etc. $10K for scaffold, $22K for roof and B I G.


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## flashingmaster56 (Dec 17, 2009)

*Verry Nice!*



English Roofer said:


> Hi Ed, had a quick look though my photos and most nearly all of them are of the roof, but i found these as follows,we have to scaffold right around the building when we re-roof, the only time i dont is if the roof is a fairly flat pitch but this is rare.
> You would not want to be caught working with out scaffold but the Health and safety dept, they would close you down!


Beautifull work.


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## flashingmaster56 (Dec 17, 2009)

*Ladder Jack Scaffold?*

Have you ever seen a Ladder Jack Scaffold?


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## flashingmaster56 (Dec 17, 2009)

flashingmaster56 said:


> Have you ever seen a Ladder Jack Scaffold?


One OF A Kind. You will not see this scaffold anywhere else.


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## English Roofer (Dec 26, 2008)

Hi Flash, ive seen something similar over here to the scaffold that your showing, great for cladding and soffit work.
Cheers
Dave


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## JWilliams (Nov 11, 2008)

yeah i really wished we had scaffolding on the couple of 12/12s we did. it would have been really nice. especially since i was the guy on the bottom.


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## Interloc (Apr 6, 2009)

why didnt ya use ladder jacks and staging??


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## JWilliams (Nov 11, 2008)

the guy i worked for at the time was a cheap bastard. only had afew ladder jacks and he had them on another job.


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## peterjames (Apr 14, 2010)

Without scaffolding, tall buildings would fall into disrepair quickly through lack of maintenance. Scaffolding can be custom-designed to service any building, no matter what its shape or height. Scaffolding makes walkways safer for construction workers to do their jobs with optimum freedom of movement.


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## MGP Roofing (Mar 23, 2010)

Here in NZ, on new work,the main contractor normally supplies the scaffolding, for re-roofs either the h/o or ourselves have to arrange for it. Often we suggest to the h/o that they get any other work that needs it, e.g painting, done while its setup.

I own a couple sets of H frame which is good for single storey, steep roofs, a scaffolding company does everything else.

The first 2 pics show how its usually done, guardrail all round for lower pitches, 3 planks just below fascia for steep pitches though some builders do this anyway which is a nice touch.

Unfortunately we do have a high incidence of dangerous/inadequate/nonexistent scaffolding as well, like in the last 2 pics. on the job in the 3rd pic, the carpenters couldn't even get the fascia on in some areas, nearly everywhere we had problems getting the roof on because the scaffolding was way too close to the building. The group of Asians who erected it couldn't use a tape measure, as well as having built it to suit themselves i.e 1.8m from the top of one plank to the bottom of the ones on the next level. Thats a problem for 90% of tradespeople around here! And they wouldn't come back to fix it, another company had to rebuild it later. Also, that star system is the worst i've ever come across, far too many snags for our air hoses and too hard to build it how you want. :thumbdown:

The last one was done with a static wire rope fixed along the ridge to which we attached our safety ropes. That 2500 sq metre job took twice as long as it would have with scaffolding. And the carpentry contractor had to build his own wooden scaffold to do all the soffits and fascia work. Would've been much more cost effective to do it properly to start with!


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## dealfiles (Jul 6, 2010)

*Quick Thanks*

I just wanted to thank MGP for sharing those photos. Even though he's in NZ, the practice remains the same, and I learned a lot just by viewing his pics.


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## RoofingSafety (Oct 5, 2009)

Grumpy said:


> Fall protection of some kind is necessary and usually slide guards are the best. Slide guards are essentially a 2x6 fastened to the roof using a bracket which is fastened under the roofing material. Technically youa re supposed to use something like this on each and every roof. I talked to one guy who says he does, even on garages and I laughed at him and asked if he's ever inspected one of his jobs in progress. It's a good thing but who's going to slide on a 3/12?


Roof jacks serve several purposes including being a slide guard. However, they can also be used for other reasons:

level working/standing platform
secure place to set down supplies/tools/materials (without sliding)
set up along the roof eave to stop/collect roof debris from shooting off the roof or damaging the gutters


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## charlwat27 (Nov 2, 2011)

*Considerations for roof work*


Perform a risk assessment – identify the risks that will be encountered before performing the specific tasks required for the job.
Getting on and off the roof – this is a major risk point, a secure way to enter and exit the roof is essential.
Fall arrest system – a fall arrest system is required if a worker may fall from an elevated position. As a general rule, the fall arrest system should be used if the working height is greater than six feet. (Refer to the “Fall Protection” tailgate topic for further information.)
Falling Material – maintain good housekeeping on the roof to stop material that could fall.
Training – roof workers need the knowledge, skills and experience to work safely.
Weather conditions – work should not occur during icy, rainy, or windy conditions. You can easily be blown off a roof when carrying roofing materials.
Ladders and scaffolding – make sure they are structurally sound and installed properly. If you have questions, talk to your supervisor.


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