# nails guns and decking



## Ron Harden

Interested if anyone is experiencing homeowners requesting hand nailing shingles instead of nail guns?


----------



## Grumpy

Until I started my company I had never touched a roofing nailer. Infact all the roofs I had sold were hand nailed. It's hard to find guys willing to hand nail, but those that have been doing it for their entire careers and do it every day will be equally as fast as a crew using guns. 

I used to think that a gun nailed roof meant a bad roof. I have changed my opinion on that. While it is easier to make a mistake if you rusha nd go too fast with a gun nailed roof, you can still definetly get a good roof if you have installers who care about what they are doing.

Finding guys who care doesn't matter if they are using a gun or not, it's a whole other discussion... but if your guys don't care the roof will suck regardless.


----------



## bolga

Hand nailing whats that?
On a more serious note in the last 12 short years ive been at this ive had only one customer request a hand nailed roof. And lucky for me it was only a 5 sq pump house, which still left 3 of my fingers blood blistered.


----------



## Ed the Roofer

It happens about a few times, not that they specifically request it, but that they want to know the difference.

I just tell them that the nail has no intelligence. Either type can be put in right or wrong.

That is what I tout about having the same employees year in and year out, who have been trained on how i want the jobs to be done, per spec.

Ed


----------



## chb70

Some people will ask about it, but I ask them if there something about using a gun that they don't like and explain that a good roofer can use either method and be as good or bad as anyone else.
But to answer the question only a couple times a season.


----------



## Roofsafe

I started using a nail gun 18 years ago, hand nailed for 20 years before that, like Ed and Grumpy said, the only difference is the quality of the roofer. It's rare anyone asks about hand nailing, sometimes on exposed soffet I'll ask if they want me to hand nail using 3/4 inch nails to keep the exposed nails to a minimum, they like the fact that I asked them.


----------



## Grumpy

chb70 said:


> Some people will ask about it, but I ask them if there something about using a gun that they don't like and explain that a good roofer can use either method and be as good or bad as anyone else.
> But to answer the question only a couple times a season.


Here's the deal. Hand nailing is good marketing! Find something to set yourself apart. I used to make a huge deal about hand nailing in my sales presentations. I know it mattered, because the whole point was: quality quality quality. They didn't care that I was hand nailing or gun nailing. INfact they probably forgot after I left their presence. The point was I was making a huge deal about how we care and how we go the extra mile.

So I have been convinced, like Ed said, either can be done right or wrong. But I still beleive in quality and I still explain the fact that we are goign the extra mile, I just now leave out the part about hand nailing. 

Ditto to roof safe on the exposed soffit. I don't ask though, I bring it up and state. "Oh and BTW on your exposed soffit, you don't want to see a bunch of nails do you? Did anyone else bring this up with you (set yourself apart)? Yeah it's very important we use shorter nails in this area or else you're going to see each and every nail from the bottom, and that's going to be very ugly. We use 1 1/4" roofing nails on the rest of the roof but on this section we'll be using 3/4" or 7/8" roofing nails so they don't poke through."


----------



## Roofsafe

Right on Grumpy, Oh but those short nails are hard on these older fingers. They seemed to have grown in size since I started roofing, they are no longer thinner than a 3/4 inch nail.


----------



## ronbryanroofing

Second generation roofer. Its a beautiful thing having the ability to set wack set wack with a light hatchet. This Spring marks my 21st year roofing. The first five I swung a hatchet and you couldn't tell me different was better. Then starting at 8 AM one morning a rival started a new house across the street (new construction) 3 guys with 2 guns and there were 5 of us 4 with hatchets and at lunch we were finishing the back and looking across the street they were ready to cap the ridge. At the chump change we were doing for back then we were working too hard. Needless to say we finished the front with guns and have not looked back. Ever. 
I have been asked and the response is simple, no we don't staple, yes we shoot nails. I don't see the difference. 
I was wondering how my speed is holding out with my age, so on a wide open walkable I was timed 4 minutes 13 seconds per square. Nobody will ever do that with a hatchet.


----------



## Grumpy

You can do a square in 5 minutes? I'll just give you a blank check to come work for me. I don't see how that's possible and have never heard anyone ever say they could do a square in anywhere near 5 minutes. 

I'm assuming you mean after the felt was all set... but still 12 squares an hour?

LOL I personally can't do 12 squares in a day. I'm out of shape, fat and lazy though.


----------



## tomstruble

i can carry up a bundle in under 5 min:wheelchair:


----------



## Ed the Roofer

ronbryanroofing said:


> I was timed *4 minutes 13 seconds per square*.


253 seconds divided by 324 nails per square = .781 seconds per nail which = 3.12 seconds per shingle.

I can't unstick 2 shingles on a hot day in that time.

Ed


----------



## OUTLAW

Thats a shingle every 4 seconds. It is not very likely.

He must mean a bundle.:yes:


----------



## Roofsafe

The best I could do by myself was six square an hour. But, I stocked the roof out ahead of me then timed, just picked, slid into place across the gauge and nailed, I could do a square in nine minutes.
Now I can still do a square in 20 minutes, but I'm 61, not quite as fast as I usetawas. The timne trials I did on myself was always in the morning when ths shingles was nice and cool, stocking them out broke them apart so there were no stickers.
The guy who taught me 38 years ago was the fastest I ever saw with a hammer, he could do five an hour, my best with a hammer was three an hour. Started using a NAIL gun 20 years ago, had carpel tunnel from a hammer, a year later I no longer had carpel tunnel, the nail gun was a good change for me.


----------



## ronbryanroofing

Ok boys, up here we use IKO. Metric 3 bundles of 20 shingles per square with 4 nails per shingle. I was thinking this should be something I get on video for all to see. It reminds me of meeting "The fastest roofer in VT" years back. We raced, funny thing was he wanted to sort all his shingles out before we started! I allowed him to "shuffle" two of the four. I nailed on the last of the shingle of the forth bundle as he was opening his last. 

Ed, I think you might be using GAF or CertainTeed. 

We did a Marriott in Elk quite a few years back 4 bundles to a square. Lots of loose granules to slip on so that as the last until a homeowner requested Camelot last year. 7 bundles per square for Camelot. 

We did a CertainTeed last year on Phase 1 of a condo project. Those too had 4 bundles to a square. The boys hated them.
My Ol Pa swore by Bird eh eh I mean CertainTeed but we wrote those off after every Bird roof was defective with fiberglass matt. IKO cleaned up with organtic matt and we like the metric sizing.


----------



## ronbryanroofing

Grumpy,
How much do you pay? Chicago is a bit of a drive from here...


----------



## ronbryanroofing

RoofSafe,

We are in the same ballpark. I was pressing for speed that day. Lines were popped, already ran up the valley and I was timed in the field. I try and stay in the 3 square per hour range. I shoot leaning over not sitting or kneeling so my motivation is that stretch after a bundle is down. 

Up here we get mostly steeper roofs, 12/12 is the best for this guy, give me a cushy for those knees and still including brackets (we don't work off toe boards) I can still press out the three square per hour. 

Hammers are for the ridge vent/ cap and setting brackets.


----------



## OUTLAW

I hate to see what all those sqs looked like


----------



## ronbryanroofing

Perfect. Straight. Do the same routine couple hundred thousand times and maybe you too can be quick and good at what you do. 
I smirk at those non believers and non capable. I have wagered my fair share at this and walked away with a fatter wallet. 
I have often said "Someone call Guinness" because I am the fastest roofer. I will check in on it. I will may need someone to hold the video camera... Outlaw? You busy?


----------



## Roofsafe

rbr, I still use the guage on the gun, most guys just use the laminations or as you do, snap lines. I snap two lines per face, starter and first course, if I have any dormers I will snap a line above the ridge of the dormers to check myself. For valleys I run the small side first, snap a line two inches above the valley then precut the cut side, that way I don't have to worry about rising or dropping in the valley, they stay level as long as you follow the line and the guage.
Outlaw, As for straight courses, I have plenty of pictures if you are interested.


----------



## ronbryanroofing

RoofSafe,

I have the un-advantage of being 6'-5". I have troubles seeing the eyes, I snap lines 5 3/4" - 11 1/2" - 23" - 34 1/2" - 46" -
57 1/2" then set brackets. Pretty methodical but it's how I do it. Lines bottom to top never fail me as to matching the courses once I get above the obstacles and more than one roofer speeds up the process. 

We use drip up here so the first 4 course are put on by matching top of cut out (3 tabs get lines every course).

Oh, or valleys are the fastest I have seen and once someone does this they never go back.

1. Weave lower pitch or smaller roof up normally. Sweep valley and snap line directly up center of valley. 

2. Lay a course bottom edge to the line up the valley (works only with archs) cris-crossing one side with the other at ridge further protecting caps as they dive small ridge to main roof ( sometimes these dry and crack).

3. Main roof run plane to the valley, cutting shingle (square in length) bottom corner up (with hooker). 

Valley Done. No hard cold cutting, no too deep cuts with hot summer buttery shingles and very straight!


----------



## dwightlightnin

i was watching ask this old house and they have this segment called "what is it".anyways they had this tin cone with a rope attached and apparently it was a nail facer.you dumped your nails into it and it swung around your neck so all you had to do was pull each nail out between your fingures already face so all you had to do was pull the nail and hammer away.just as long as you hit the right nail it would be great.im still looking for another,and tryin to figure out how it worked without jammin up all the time.


----------



## Ed the Roofer

dwightlightnin said:


> i was watching ask this old house and they have this segment called "what is it".anyways they had this tin cone with a rope attached and apparently it was a nail facer.you dumped your nails into it and it swung around your neck so all you had to do was pull each nail out between your fingures already face so all you had to do was pull the nail and hammer away.just as long as you hit the right nail it would be great.im still looking for another,and tryin to figure out how it worked without jammin up all the time.


It is called a "Nail Stripper".

Check out the ABC Building Supply Catalog and order one if you hand nail.

Ed


----------



## 2ndGen

ronbryanroofing said:


> Second generation roofer. Its a beautiful thing having the ability to set wack set wack with a light hatchet. This Spring marks my 21st year roofing. The first five I swung a hatchet and you couldn't tell me different was better. Then starting at 8 AM one morning a rival started a new house across the street (new construction) 3 guys with 2 guns and there were 5 of us 4 with hatchets and at lunch we were finishing the back and looking across the street they were ready to cap the ridge. At the chump change we were doing for back then we were working too hard. Needless to say we finished the front with guns and have not looked back. Ever.
> I have been asked and the response is simple, no we don't staple, yes we shoot nails. I don't see the difference.
> I was wondering how my speed is holding out with my age, so on a wide open walkable I was timed 4 minutes 13 seconds per square. Nobody will ever do that with a hatchet.


 
2nd Generation Roofere myself (25+ years).

I remember the first time I picked up a hatchet.
I never looked back to hammers again for shingling.

I've heard the arguments about not being able to pull out nails, but with hatchets, I don't bend nails (the head is angled to land on the sloped surface of the roof far better than a hammer that is designed to his "flat" surfaces whether horizontally or vertically). 

Then, nail guns. 

3 letters... WOW!

I remember laying out a 20 square roof with my crew the first time I used one. 
I had 2 guys with hammers laying out the first 6 courses for me 
(4:12, no details except for one pair of valleys). 

I shingled the field. 

Eventually, I got really good at it. 

I got to the point that I could nail a bundle of 3 tabs in less than a minute with someone throwing them to me. 
I was able to keep this rate up consistantly for hours at a time. 
I got to the point that I could lay up 12 squares by myself with a helper feeding me 
and me doing all of the detail work and shingling by lunch time. 

I did a 5 sq garage in 1 hour and the lady wanted a refund! :lol:

She said I did it too fast!


----------



## 2ndGen

Grumpy said:


> You can do a square in 5 minutes? I'll just give you a blank check to come work for me. I don't see how that's possible and have never heard anyone ever say they could do a square in anywhere near 5 minutes.
> 
> I'm assuming you mean after the felt was all set... but still 12 squares an hour?
> 
> LOL I personally can't do 12 squares in a day. I'm out of shape, fat and lazy though.


No need Grumps...make that out to 2ndGen!

LOL!

I'm good for a solid 4/hour (under the right conditions, easy 5).


----------



## 2ndGen

Ok, having read through the thread, here's me: 

I can literally nail down a shingle in one second.

With a helper throwing them to me (have them trained to toss it at an angle just to my left side), I can grab the shingle, place it and nail it. 

Total time per shingle about 2-3 seconds on a pefect application and under ideal conditions (new work, material strategically placed on in field, good weather [like the 40-50 degree range], no drama at home to occupy my mind, etc...).

I'd basically plow through 3 squares at a time and take a quick break (but not long enough to get "cold" or to stiffen up), then I'd hope back to it for as long as I could (which is usually 3 hours straight).

To do the math and to get X amount of squares per hour based on that peformance is not so cut and dry. One has to consider different circumstances, but generally, the best I ever did was 5 2/3 sq's in less than an hour on a 95 degree day "in" the sun. 

I once nailed up (but I was especially angry ate my helper who said it couldn't be done) 4 square in less than an hour on a 10:12 roof by myself (no helper). 

Today, I'd be comfortable at a liesurely 3 square/hour rate with a solid 18-20 squares a day with a helper on a walkable roof with few if any details. 

But those types of jobs here are few.

A heavy detail (dormer, valleys, etc...)...say, 1 sq/hr. 

By hand?

My best was 4.5 sq/hour and that's with me loading the roof for me and my dad (that was another day I was working angry! LOL!).

_________________________________________________________


Whenever I do a shingle roof, I will always lay out a bundle or two with my hatchet just because I like it. 

But, in the immortal words of Prince's Boss in Purple Raing..."Dit ti biniz!" (This is a business!)

And guns rule.


----------



## Roofsafe

I can't get on a roof anymore because my knees, feet and ankles have finally said "enough". I was 61 when I did my last roof, I could still nail off four (4) square an hour, notice I said nail off. Depending on the projected temperature for the day I would run my starters and rakes, then lay out ahead of me what I figured I could do before 11:am, we're usually close to 90 degrees by then in the summer, then nail it off. 
Most of the work I did was by myself, I'm to picky for most guys who just want to "blow n' go". I was told several times that I could make more money if I would drop my standards, just couldn't bring myself to do that. 
I could still nail off six square or better an hour, but when you add the stock time in there It came out to a comfortable 2 1/2 to three square per hour. Not to shabby for an old guy who enjoyed his work. Most of my best times were on five or six twelve roofs.
Working by myself I learned how to do a lot of things to improve my time on a roof to increase my out put, espiecialy on the steeper roofs. I developed systems that improved safety and performance on steep roofs, the less you have to move around on a steep roof to get your shingles, the less your chances are for getting hurt. Placing your shingles where you need them allows quicker dispersement, only making the moves needed to do your work quickly, safer. The last steep roof I did by myself was a 21/12, that was done eight months after a shoulder replacement that went bad, so I was practically roofing that barn with one arm. It was a 21/12 sides and 7/12 top, it was in the dead of winter, Janurary, two snow storms, but nice afternoon temps allowed me to work. I got it done in four weeks, maybe not good time by most of the standards some of you guys on here have, but I thought it was pretty good, the systems I developed helped me out big time.


----------



## 2ndGen

That's about right for me too...a nice steady easy pace of a bundle every five minute (when 3/sq), take a minute rest, reposition yourself, bang out the next bundle, wash/rinse/repeat.



I once had to nail off a roof I had to do because my compressor siezed before I even started the job. Managed to do 8 squares by 11:00 am (got there at just after 8) with a good 36 feet of hips to cut and install. 

Luckily, it was relatively walkable. 
Weather was great. 

I have to admit, there was more of a sense of accomplishment when I did it by hand.

When I do it by gun, I judge my accomplishment by how much material I lay up.

Coincidentally, I did the other side of the same roof (8 squares) in just under two hours from start to finish when I had the gun going the previous day. The other side was worse because there was a 4 story drop and I nailed the first 6 courses from the roof working my way up, but once I had layed out the first 6 courses, the field was a breeze. 

Roofs like that, I generally run the first six courses straight across from end to end and then fill in the field (getting the slow work out of the way and picking up on production as I plow through one bundle after another without having to stop in the field).


----------



## idahoED

Actually Grumpy that is 14.28 sqs.per.hour. But wait let me guess, You kept up that pace for...4 mins.& 13 secs., right? How do I know? Well as a young man, I concidered myself to be the best of the best and one day I showed up at 5am., shingles,(30 yr. elk, which had to be flip flopped) AND felt loaded at the ridge of a 4 in 12, gable to gable, climbed down the ladder at 6pm. and looked up at 28 sqs. and two bundles completed! Could not finish the ridge because my right forearm was cramping too bad. But the shingles, FINISHED. That is 2 and 1/4 sqs. per hour. But that was for 13 hours. AND my story is real


----------



## Slyfox

idahoED said:


> Actually Grumpy that is 14.28 sqs.per.hour. But wait let me guess, You kept up that pace for...4 mins.& 13 secs., right? How do I know? Well as a young man, I concidered myself to be the best of the best and one day I showed up at 5am., shingles,(30 yr. elk, which had to be flip flopped) AND felt loaded at the ridge of a 4 in 12, gable to gable, climbed down the ladder at 6pm. and looked up at 28 sqs. and two bundles completed! Could not finish the ridge because my right forearm was cramping too bad. But the shingles, FINISHED. That is 2 and 1/4 sqs. per hour. But that was for 13 hours. AND my story is real


Most shingles I ever installed,
hand nailing - 22 square in 9 hours,
gun - 22 square in 8 hours.

Hand banging go's - tap 1* 2* tap 1* 2* tap 1* 2* Tap.
Gun go's - Tap 1* Tap 1* Tap 1* Tap.

Any roofer running a hammer or a gun moving faster than that is mis-placing fasteners or skipping them.
So when you here your roofers nail gun going TapTapTapTap or their hammer going tap-tap-tap, cross your fingers.

Remember, homes are sold, new home owners don't always go back to find the roofer the previous home owners used.
There are also many cases in which the home owner who hired you won't bother going back to the roofer when the problems occur 4,5,6 plus years down the road.
So many roofers never even know their roofs failed, not to mention those jobs the home owners got for free via insurance issues and found out during the process they were lucky it happened because the roof they had wouldn't have last much longer.

I teach my guys it's better to nail 20 square a day with quality,
than 30 a day straight and neat with slanted, under/over shot fasteners.


----------



## ronbryanroofing

This last year I spent a lot more time in the truck than on the roof. I stopped complaining to the boys "How its not done yet?" and just glad to be producing top quality work. Yesterday was the first time I have strapped on my belt in months, felt good, but not as good as still having the speed I brag about. I didn't count bundles but the roof is 64' long 19' rakes and broken only by one valley where the front pops out 2' adding up to about 9+/- square. It was also 36 degrees outside and felt great to nail on the entire front in less than 3 hours. Couldn't have done that with a hatchet!


----------



## Nick Tomich

There's one company in Northwest Indiana that only does hand banging. Please forgive me, it was grumpy or ed? Its all done with quality in the end whether it was a hand or a gun, It has to go in straight and by someone who cares.


----------



## kimboy

Grumpy,
How much do you pay? Chicago is a bit of a drive from here..


----------



## caliroofer

From the earlier post. When you called for ''Guiness'' was that the record books or the beer?


----------

