# How Many Other Contractors Measure Up To Your Standards?



## Ed the Roofer (Sep 15, 2008)

I have over 200 or so other Roofing contractors in my market area, and know at least something about most of them.

Out of that large total number, I would only feel comfortable referring customers who want my type of service and quality, to only about 3 or 4 of them.

How much do you know about your competition?

How many would measure up to your standards?

Ed


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## tinner666 (Oct 28, 2008)

2 measure up. A few others will keep going back until they fix whatever they screwed up. Only about 500 here.


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## The Roofing God (Oct 31, 2008)

over 700 here,there are a few good ones,but no one really covers all the details


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Ed you and I are out of the same market area, but I send work your way quite frequently. I also send work Aaron's way because he too is our of my area. Having said that being in the Chicago metro area, there are over 40 pages of roofers in the yellow pages. I don't advertise there!

Over the last 7 or 8 years or 9 or what ever it has been I have collected proposals from nearly 100 competitors, and inspected thosuands of roof installed by others. When ever something went wrong I always ask who did it. I like knowing.

Of my competitors who advertise I can count on one hand those who would deliver and equal or better roof than me. The good news is, each of those guys is slightly more expensive than me. 

If people want quality we usually get the job. problem is most people want cheap disposable roofing, and there are hundred of guys out there that can deliver a roof cheaper than I can because my standards are higher. Because of this I have considered setting up a 2nd company. With the 2nd company, I can grab more market share. I can target the quality companies with my existing company, and target cheap0s with the new cmopany. This way when the failures occure due to the short cuts it doesn't reflect poorly on my highly reputable existing company.


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## Slyfox (Oct 30, 2008)

I started in 1994 and have always kept a list:
Roofers - 2
Painters - 1
Electricians - 1
Plumbers - 1
Framers - 4
GC's - 2, I work fulltime for 6 GC's, hope none of them see this .


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

*I’m not sure*

Some of the companies that I thought were real good might not be all that great.

Let me give you an example; one company that is located in an affluent area has a good reputation and high prices recently did a job without enough ice shield.

They were working in the same neighborhood as my crew and I noticed that they only installed 3’ of ice shield on a house that should have had 6’.

I install 6’ of ice shield if the home has a 1’ overhang because 3’ of ice shield won’t meet code because of the wall thickness.

Another company (a member of CCN) abuses it’s installers by paying low wages.
By the way they sell at high prices too. Most of the work in Michigan gets done by subcontractors. I’ve learned recently that they’ve beat their installers down to $5 per sheet for plywood replacement.

The lesson learned is that even high priced companies may not have the highest standards.

I’ve been told by a manufacturer’s rep that there are around 3300 “roofing contractors” in Metro Detroit. I’m not sure I would recommend any but my own. 

I’m not bragging or claiming that I’m better than all the others, but I don’t inspect their work and I don’t know how they run their companies.

I get up on the roof and inspect every one of my jobs; before, during and after completion. Then I meet with the owner to make sure they are happy.


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## AaronB. (Nov 23, 2008)

I do not see how one can say that anyone can "abuse" their installers by paying low wages.

If anything, it would be a case of customer abuse. The installers can go to work elsewhere. 

The customer is bound by contract and had no idea that contractor is using hack roofer wannabees on his roof.


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

*Your response is revealing*

From your response I gather that your “Standards” include paying substandard wages. In other words you want the cheapest labor you can get so that more money can go into your pocket.

Your “Standards” don’t take into consideration the need of your installers; like having a place to live and food on the table. 

I wonder what kind of quality you get from workers that are treated like they are one level above slavery.

I wonder what kind of impression your workers make on the customer because they probably resent working for you, I would.


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## OUTLAW (Feb 16, 2009)

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## AaronB. (Nov 23, 2008)

Jack The Roofer said:


> From your response I gather that your “Standards” include paying substandard wages. In other words you want the cheapest labor you can get so that more money can go into your pocket.
> 
> Your “Standards” don’t take into consideration the need of your installers; like having a place to live and food on the table.
> 
> ...


Are you talking to me, Jack?


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## AaronB. (Nov 23, 2008)

Jack, just in case you were talking to me.....

I'm sorry that you are unable to comprehend theoretical thinking. Here's my take on ..."abusing their workers by paying low wages"

The workers, if not happy with their wage agreement with the company, can easily find work elsewhere. They are in no manner bound to any low wage paying company. If they are worth their metal, then they should have NO problem finding work at a wage that would be acceptable. So to say that any company could "abuse their workers by paying low wages" is ludicrous. 

The needs of the workers.... yep, I know they have needs. The company has needs. The two have to work in a symbiotic relationship for the company to work. If the worker's financial needs aren't satisfactory, then I guess we should look as to why. Are they performing up to company standards? Are they responsible to the company? Are they quality oriented? Do they care about what theyre doing? If they are doing their proper part, then they will get paid. 

Does a sub-standard employee expect top wages? you bet! Does the guy that calls off a day or two every week expect to keep his job? Damn right he does. Should I reward him for substandard work practices? Hell no!

Do I pay my workers well? Sure do. All hourly so there is never a reason to rush through any work. Do they have work available to them everyday? Sure do. Do they all take it? Nope. Is it stuff that the company needs done in order to continue operations? Yep. Do the substandard employees give a crap? Nope. 

The good high paid workers do. They perform, have work available to do, do it, do it well, and are happy. They are not happy and perform because they are high-paid. They are high-paid BECAUSE they perform and are happy because of the symbiotic relathionship they share with the company.

P.S. you should nevere assume


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## ronbryanroofing (Mar 25, 2009)

If I was to sub to someone I would let them give me their rates then them work off those. They obviously know what they need to make to survive and why would the Contractor feel any guilt for that? 

Its like the food chain. As the Contractor contracts the roof with a HO for what we can do it for, as does the Sub so what is the difference?


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## OUTLAW (Feb 16, 2009)

Ed

To answer your question, I believe that some of my competition does a really good job. There's alot of hacks around here too, but most companies do a really good job.

Now, that being said, most of those guys are dishonest. I have heard whispers about me, that I charge too much, that I'm ripping people off with the prices that I charge. Well, that couldn't be farther from the truth. The reason that my prices are so much higher is because I refuse to take shortcuts. Problem is most of these shortcuts are things that the customer will never see. Things like pay taxes, my insurance, etc.

If all the roofing companies around here hired legal help and paid all the labor burden like they are supposed to, than their prices would be similar to mine.

Even the ones that charge about the same as me (Home Depot, Lowes, to name a few), still hire subs who hire illegals. So price isn't the issue. Its ethics. You don't always get what you pay for.

Example:

Hire roofing co "A" $5,000.00. Hires illeagals, does good work, nice job.

Hire roofing co "B" $13,000.00 Hires illeagals, does crappy work, bad job.

Hire roofing co "Me" $10,500.00 Hires Americans, Does good work, nice job.

Sometimes it gets so hard to get the customer to see the value in that.

Today I gave an estimate for $9270. The lady told me that her next lowest bid was $4500. She is looking for one lower than that because one guy told her to get her other estimates and then he would beat it by 10%. WTF!! When she told me that, I felt telling her what the heck, I'll give you an estimate for $3000 just so you can show it to him.


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## MGP Roofing (Mar 23, 2010)

We have the same problems here, low bidders who get the job then do a crap job that costs the HO more to get it fixed. Did a flat roof that was only a few weeks old today, flashings weren't even put behind the wall cladding, just a bit of silicon on the top edge.
Also the only concrete tile manufacturer in New Zealand has everyone tied up by only selling the complete roof direct to the client then subbing out the install, still paying the same rates they did in 1990! So of course the roof gets thrown on in a few hours and nearly always needs repair within 4-5 years, though I heard of one that lasted less than a week after the owners moved into their new home. Half of it took off in a storm cos the installers used low wind zone fixing specs in a very high wind zone cos thats all they're paid to do! Did heaps of repairs after said storm, nearly all to roofs less than 5yrs old and by the same company.:thumbup:
Gives their product a bad name which is good for us, heaps of HO's want 30yr or better shingles instead and thats my main area.
Here's the flat roof before I started:


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## MGP Roofing (Mar 23, 2010)

This is how it looks after we repaired it...


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## AaronB. (Nov 23, 2008)

OUTLAW said:


> Ed
> 
> To answer your question, I believe that some of my competition does a really good job. There's alot of hacks around here too, but most companies do a really good job.
> 
> ...



Give her one for 1500.00 and don't sign it.


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## 2ndGen (Nov 23, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> I have over 200 or so other Roofing contractors in my market area, and know at least something about most of them.
> 
> Out of that large total number, I would only feel comfortable referring customers who want my type of service and quality, to only about 3 or 4 of them.
> 
> ...


Holy Crap Ed!

Have you just hit the nail on the head with this thread!

My answer? 

ZERO!

Every contractor I've dealt with locally have operated totally below my standards! 
Uneblievable. This is EXACTLY why I'm going back into business. 
It's almost like customers need me. I had a knot in my stomach. It sucked. 
I was recently forced to do poor work and to lie to customers by someone I worked for.

I'm not going to say that I am a saint, but I don't cheat people.
And I don't do shite work. And I work safe. And I respect the customer's home.
It just turned my stomach to work for others who do shite work and who get paid premium to do it. 

But I will build a company based on my original dream...
...to provide the absolute BEST service and work period at any price.


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## AaronB. (Nov 23, 2008)

I didn't know that you weren't in business.


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## 2ndGen (Nov 23, 2008)

AaronB. said:


> I didn't know that you weren't in business.


I took 2009 off.


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## noahweb (Feb 18, 2010)

very few. But the post installation service is far more important than the actual service itself. I need someone whos going to come back and do punch or fix leaks


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