# Let’s compare material estimates.



## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

I’d like to compare *2 things*, the *quantity of materials* that you come up with for each item and *the price that you are paying for each item*.

The sketch is of a typical Colonial style home. The large section in the middle is 2 stories and the other sections are 1 story.

Just pretend that you went up on the roof and put your tape measure on it and got these measurements. Then do an estimate like you normally would and *add in your waste factors*. Then produce a list of materials that you would need for the job along with the price of the materials *without sales tax.*

To make sure we are *comparing apples to apples* do your estimate with *the same materials that I have listed* even if they are materials than you would not use.

Here are the specs:

· Name of Shingle; CertainTeed Landmark, 30 year 
· Hip and Ridge Material shall be same color and warranty as the shingles.
· Precut Starter Shingles shall be installed on all edges of the roof.
· Installation of felt paper shingle underlayment. Type: 15 lb. 
· Waterproofing underlayment shall be installed at all eave edges (including garage). The ice shield shall be 6 feet wide. 
· Valleys shall have a layer of ice and watershield 3 feet wide and be covered by the shingles.
· Remove and replace plumbing vent pipe flashings with new aluminum flashings and flash with ice and watershield. 
· Install large face aluminum drip edge on all edges of roof. 
· New step flashing at walls.
· The ventilation system for this project will consist of the following: OmniRoll ridgevent. (exclude reverse gable)
· Install 1 bathroom fan vent, pipe not included.

Ok, I found my mistake here is my updated total. 
My total material cost would be $4075.35.


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

*Here’s my estimate, I scanned it and saved it as a JPEG file.*

Here’s my estimate, I scanned it and saved it as a JPEG file.

This is the updated estimate.


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## Slyfox (Oct 30, 2008)

Lol, your list is showing 45 square and I come up with 35 and your paying more than me in materials.
I pay $73.50 for Land Marks and $41.00 for Shadow Ridge.

Maybe I'll look back here later after a couple more cups of coffee and figure out what I'm missing on my numbers.


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## ronbryanroofing (Mar 25, 2009)

Jack,
You know I only use IKO! LOL

I got 35 square too. I will send out a email for a price list on your quantities as I am getting calls from suppliers for free lunches so I am guessing they are bored. I tried the calling the local yard, and you will love this, "CertainTeed, really? Special order.... we got IKO's" 

Its a funny thing up here, I called I will let you know on Monday. I am curious to any price difference regionally. Without Googling, where do they make those?


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

*Waste factor*

My waste factor must be higher than yours. I’m adding in for waste when the shingles are trimmed at the edges and walls, plus there is some overlap with the closed valley.

My estimating system rounds up to the next highest square. For example if it’s 40.33 squares it will round up to 41 square. I want to make sure the crew doesn’t run out of material that’s why I don’t try to cut my estimates real close.

I recently increased my waste factors because we came up short on material a few times last year.

Here’s how I do it.

On a gable roof I add 2 feet to the length. For example the section that measures 44 feet gets estimated at 46 feet. 

For valleys I take the length of the valley and multiply by 3.

I add 3% waste factor to the whole estimate and round up to the next highest square.


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

*Updated prices*



Slyfox said:


> Lol, your list is showing 45 square and I come up with 35 and your paying more than me in materials.
> I pay $73.50 for Land Marks and $41.00 for Shadow Ridge.
> 
> Maybe I'll look back here later after a couple more cups of coffee and figure out what I'm missing on my numbers.


Have you checked with your supplier for current prices?

We just had another increase here about a week ago. I bought them for les than what you are paying a couple weeks ago.


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

*Use IKO for your estimate*



ronbryanroofing said:


> Jack,
> You know I only use IKO! LOL
> 
> I got 35 square too. I will send out a email for a price list on your quantities as I am getting calls from suppliers for free lunches so I am guessing they are bored. I tried the calling the local yard, and you will love this, "CertainTeed, really? Special order.... we got IKO's"
> ...


If you want just tell us what you are paying for the IKO Cambridge 30 AR

The CertainTeed shinlges I get come out of Ohio but they have plants all over the country.


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## Slyfox (Oct 30, 2008)

Yeah, I got the updated price list in the mail last Monday.

IKO's I pay $54.00 'Royal Victorian, $72.00 'Cambridge, $60.00 'Gentry Ultra.

I haven't got it from ABC Supply yet tho, but there usually pretty close,
these prices are from Banner Supply.


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

*The cause of price differences.*

A lot of contractors are complaining about low ball bidders. Typically they assume the competitor isn’t charging enough for labor and overhead, and that may be true. 

But it’s probably also true that various contractors are not even coming up with the same quantity of materials required for the job.

I got the idea for this from a conference I attending last year sponsored by Owens Corning. The instructor put up a sketch of a roof and asked everyone in the room to estimate the quantity of shingles. He didn’t want waste added in, just the basic square footage.

The example he used was even less complicated than the one I am using. He didn’t want the estimate rounded off to bundles or squares; he just wanted the total square feet.

He gave us a few minutes to do the math and then started getting estimates that were all over the place. Some were higher and some were only about half of what it should have been.

After several contractors responded and got it wrong I finally gave him the correct answer.

Now that doesn’t mean that I am going to be exactly right on this estimate because maybe I am adding in to much for waste. But I would rather over estimate that under estimate.

Any way this little experiment may reveal why there is such a wide range in prices from one contractor to another. 

It shows that labor cost and mark up are not the only reasons for big differences in price. We are not even close on the amount of material that will be needed to do the job.


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## ronbryanroofing (Mar 25, 2009)

All right since you allowed IKO I will play, but we use Shinglevent II.

7 IKO I & W $77 $539
3 Tryflex 123 369
38 Custom drip 11 418
35 IKO Camb. 85 2,975
1 IKO Marathon 79 79
20 Shinglevent II 10 200
1 Button cap pack 25 25
2 !'/4 " Coil Roofing 45 90
1 Bath Vent 20 20
2 Vent hats 10 10


Materials $4,515, I bend all the step/ counter in the trailer.... $4,600 plus tax.

To get the roof area I round lengths up to 3.333 ft, height always one foot per side. Valleys, I add 3.333 to both sides. Typically we will have a couple bundles left over and HO's can save. They love free stuff. My custom drip edge is tight crimp 1" overhand with 1 1/2" drop and he kick out is hemmed back under. I also do not use felt anymore, hardly anyone here does.


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

ronbryanroofing said:


> All right since you allowed IKO I will play, but we use Shinglevent II.
> 
> 7 IKO I & W $77 $539
> 3 Tryflex 123 369
> ...


Did you add your waste factor into this etimate?
Does that include rooftop delivery?

I don't see starter shinlges for all edges and it looks like you are using a 3 tab for hip & ridge.


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

*Comparison Summary*

OK, let's look at squares of shinlges and total material cost:

Jack 42 sq. $4642
Ron 35 sq. $4600
Slyfox 35 sq. , revised to 39 sq. Cost?


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## ronbryanroofing (Mar 25, 2009)

We cut off the exposure of a shingle- that is the starter, and scrap is the finisher. On Post # 10 I outlined my calculations.


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## Slyfox (Oct 30, 2008)

I did my measurements in four sections.
1> 14 x 34 = 476 / 5 squ.
2> 36 x 44 = 1584 / 16 squ plus 2 squ for reverse gable waste.
3> 22 x 39 = 858 / 9 squ.
4> 3 x 20 = 60 / 1 squ.

340' of starters = 2 squ.
80' of ridge caps = 1 squ.


Every number is rounded up, including starters and ridge caps.

36 squ + 3% waste = 38 squ, rounded that up also.

So assuming the measurements are correct and it is a gable - gable
"no hips", which is the impression I get from the sketch,
I would add another square to allow for the occasional damaged shingles delivered.

39 squares.

I guess my ignorance is showing once again, because I for the life of me can not see how to turn these numbers into a 45 square job with out either purposely wasting over 6 square or hauling 6 square back to the shop after the end of the job.


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

*5 sections*



Slyfox said:


> I did my measurements in four sections.
> 1> 14 x 34 = 476 / 5 squ.
> 2> 36 x 44 = 1584 / 16 squ plus 2 squ for reverse gable waste.
> 3> 22 x 39 = 858 / 9 squ.
> ...


 
I count 5 sections; there are 2 sections 3' x 20'.
I came up with 41 squares not 45.
I came up with 4 bundles of Hip & Ridge 4 bundles of Starter shinlges.

What would your total material cost be including all accessories and rooftop delivery?


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## ronbryanroofing (Mar 25, 2009)

We don't pay for boom truck delivery, and up here the deliverers do not get on the roof.


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## Slyfox (Oct 30, 2008)

Jack The Roofer said:


> I count 5 sections; there are 2 sections 3' x 20'.
> I came up with 41 squares not 45.
> I came up with 4 bundles of Hip & Ridge 4 bundles of Starter shinlges.
> 
> What would your total material cost be including all accessories and rooftop delivery?


I came up with the same h&r and starters as you, but than rounded up to even squares.
The first 3x20 I included in the main section of the house, called it reverse gable waste.

I'll add up the cost of materials and post in a few.


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## Slyfox (Oct 30, 2008)

33 squ CT Landmark - 73.50 $2425.50
1 squ CT Shadow Ridge - 41.00 $41.00
2 squ Starters - 27.25 $54.50
5 rolls #15 felt - 23.75 $118.75
7 rolls Winter Guard - 60.00 $420.00
Bathroom Vent - 16.35 $16.35
4 rolls Ventsure - 39.00 $156.00
340' Drip Edge - 0.39 $132.60
2 bundles Step Flashing - 4.50 $9.00
Nails:
10# 1" for felt - 13.50 $13.50
50# 1 1/4" for shingles - 64.00 $64.00
5# 2" for r-caps/ r-vent - 8.50 $8.50
1-3"/ 1-4" Stack Flashing 4.50 $9.00
Caulking - 2.38 $2.38
Roof Top Delivery $65.00

Total materials $3536.08

I guessed on a couple of things,
we bend our own step flashings,
we buy 1" and 2" nails by the 50#,
so I broke them down with an educated guess.


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

*I found my mistake*

:blink:OK, you guys were right. I had a feeling I would make a mistake since I did this estimate at 1:00 am last night.

I entered 30' for a measurement that should have been 3'.

So I am going to change my previous numbers.

Thanks for your patience.


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

*Comparison Summary*

OK, let’s add the hip & ridge, starters and shingles together to get a total quantity of squares.

Jack: 37.66 sq. total $4075 = $108.2 per sq.
Slyfox 36 sq. total $3530 = $98.22 per sq.
Ron 36 sq. Total $4600 = 127.77 per sq.
T-Lock 35.66 sq Total $4435 = $124.37 per sq.


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## ronbryanroofing (Mar 25, 2009)

Is that you installing the step or are you the photographer?


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

*I'm the photographer*



ronbryanroofing said:


> Is that you installing the step or are you the photographer?


I'm the photographer


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## Slyfox (Oct 30, 2008)

Jack The Roofer said:


> OK, let’s add the hip & ridge, starters and shingles together to get a total quantity of squares.
> 
> Jack: 37.66 sq. total $4075 = $108.2 per sq.
> Slyfox 36 sq. total $3530 = $98.22 per sq.
> Ron 36 sq. Total $4600 = 127.77 per sq.


Jack - Detroit, Michigan
Slyfox - Youngstown, Ohio
Ron - ?

The difference between Jack and me is the square's,
but Ron is obviously paying more for materials.
If my bid was using IKO's or Atlas it would have been as much as a few hundred dollars less.
For OC, Tamko, Gaf/Elk it would not have changed much, just a few dollars more or less.


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## ronbryanroofing (Mar 25, 2009)

Ten bucks a square on shingles. Not sure I like the sound of that. We did a roof with CertainTeed last year. It was a sub job we bid IKO GC Supplied. When we got there CertainTeed was there. 4 bundles per square. We liked the paper wrappers but not the 80 shingles over IKO's 60. We were compensated for the difference and the GC stated he was still under but then he bought 480 square.

GAF have the paper wrappers? I know the Camelot was in plastic. Somewhere I read the paper allows it to breath and makes sense.


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

*Changed my method*

If I used my estimating method from last year my total would have been 2 square less, 35.66 square. 

Last year I tried to get the estimate as close as possible, right down to the last bundle.

I changed the way that I do it because I don’t want to run out of material on the job. And that’s what happened when I tried to estimate exactly what we would need to do the job. Most of the time we would have a few bundles left over but a few times we came up short, and that’s what I want to avoid.

How often do you guys under estimate the job?

What impact does that have on your bottom line?

In terms of time wasted driving to a supplier, the crew can’t finish the job because they are a few bundles short, and you’re going to make less profit on the job because it was priced too low.


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

*Hand nails*



Slyfox said:


> Jack - Detroit, Michigan
> Slyfox - Youngstown, Ohio
> Ron - ?
> 
> ...


Your cost is lower because you are using hand nails.


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## Slyfox (Oct 30, 2008)

I can't remember a re-roof that I shorted myself on.

I can remember several jobs that we had only shingles 'not bundles' left over at the end of the job, but not short.

The norm is to have one or two bundles of field shingles,
and just open/partial bundles of ridge cap and starters left over.
The same with felt and i&w, never full rolls left over, but always partials.

I can remember having to cover a 2 square hip in i&w because I shorted myself on felt and over ordered i&w and the nearest lumber yard of any kind would have been a 20 minute ride.


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## ronbryanroofing (Mar 25, 2009)

Ya I can't remember being short on materials. And I am in Vermont.


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## ronbryanroofing (Mar 25, 2009)

Oh, I was looking at the photo of the valley... Question: Do you run a course up the valley (bottom edge of shingle to valley) and then bring top course over the top until the bottom corner of top shingle meets the bottom of the valley course? We have been doing that for years, quick and clean.


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

ronbryanroofing said:


> Oh, I was looking at the photo of the valley... Question: Do you run a course up the valley (bottom edge of shingle to valley) and then bring top course over the top until the bottom corner of top shingle meets the bottom of the valley course? We have been doing that for years, quick and clean.


Yes, that's the way we do the valley


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## Slyfox (Oct 30, 2008)

ronbryanroofing said:


> Oh, I was looking at the photo of the valley... Question: Do you run a course up the valley (bottom edge of shingle to valley) and then bring top course over the top until the bottom corner of top shingle meets the bottom of the valley course? We have been doing that for years, quick and clean.



I just started doing my valleys that way last year,
I had seen it done by a couple local roofers but being one of those people who take change slowly it took a few years before I tried it.


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## T-LOCK (Apr 1, 2009)

I wanna play too. Tamko and o c are the most common here, can't get a price on certainteed, so i'm using Tamkos.

I came up with 30.38 net.
We add 10% waste on straight gable & 15% on hips.
10% on 30.38 is 33.42 then round to the nearest 3rd 33.33

Tamko Heritage 30's 33.33 @ 83.45=2,781.39
Tamko H&R [email protected] 33.15 =99.45
Tamko 15# felt [email protected] 26.07 = 182.49
Tamko Moisture Guard [email protected] 89.70= 627.90
Shinglevent 80' @ 2.80'= 224.00
2x2 drip edge galv. [email protected]=103.36
plumbing flashing [email protected]=12.46
1"1/4 coil nails [email protected]= 48.75
bostitch staples [email protected]
fart fan vent [email protected]
step flashing [email protected]=79.40
head wall metal 4x5 [email protected]=10.12
roof top delivery fuel charge 50.00
TOTAL MATERIAL CHARGE $ 4,245.64


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

*Precut starters?*



T-LOCK said:


> I wanna play too. Tamko and o c are the most common here, can't get a price on certainteed, so i'm using Tamkos.
> 
> I came up with 30.38 net.
> We add 10% waste on straight gable & 15% on hips.
> ...


Did you include starter shinlges?
Do you use precut starters on all edges?
THat's the way I do it and it qualifies for a 110 mph wind warranty.
Do you think you can do this job with one box of nails?


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## T-LOCK (Apr 1, 2009)

Jack The Roofer said:


> Did you include starter shinlges?
> Do you use precut starters on all edges?
> THat's the way I do it and it qualifies for a 110 mph wind warranty.
> Do you think you can do this job with one box of nails?


 Oooops:whistling: my bad. Yes we do use a bleeder up the rakes.
4 bund. @ 35.00= 140.00 and no , 1 box of nails won't be quit
enough to do this job so add another 48.75. Ridge vent and ridge
would be hand nailed. $ 4,434.39:thumbup:


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## siding toronto (Apr 7, 2009)

*siding toronto*

Are you doing a certainteed warranty specification?


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

Jack The Roofer said:


> OK, let’s add the hip & ridge, starters and shingles together to get a total quantity of squares.
> 
> Jack: 37.66 sq. total $4075 = $108.2 per sq.
> Slyfox 36 sq. total $3530 = $98.22 per sq.
> ...


So far it looks like T-Lock is paying more per sq. Rons number is higher because he included synthetic underlayment.


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## robert (Oct 29, 2008)

I came up with 3402.6 with 12 % waste factor which includes your starter and capping in it


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## robert (Oct 29, 2008)

or you can do as allstate does 8% and measure your capping separate,you will run short every time!But thats what they like!


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## user182 (Jan 17, 2009)

I am going to lower my waste factor becuae I have been having shinlges left over on every job.


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