# My own home had damage from Storm Sandy, Can i prepare the estimate and do the work?



## jeffroofing (Feb 18, 2012)

<P>I had some high wind damage to my shingles on my roof and I am wondering if anyone knows if as a certified roofing contractor, if you can prepare an estimate for your own home and perform the work through your company? </P>
<P> </P>
<P>I have taking pictures of all the damage.... and sent it to the insurance company. I have yet to prepare an estimate because I do not know if it will be valid.</P>


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## vtroofing (Sep 27, 2009)

I would say yes- but this will most likely be based solely on Insurance Estimate, and supplements may be difficult if the adjuster is not in exact agreement.

Process:
Most Insurers pay the homeowner direct for the repairs via check to owner and to mortgage company, then the insured can shop with the money. The fact you are a roofer means nothing to them, as it didn't save you on your premium why should it save them money on the repairs? I shouldn't just like additional upgrades should not be compensated by your insurance company either. 

If you are in fact a business, when the check comes in the mail (after endorsed from your mortgage company) deposit it in your personal account and write you business a check and deposit it in your business account. When the work is completed Invoice from your company sent to your adjuster should release the final payment. 

Document photos and invoices just as you would if this was a job for anybody else and you'd expect payments from. 

Sorry to you and all the others who have suffered from Sandy.


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## LCG (May 30, 2011)

I second VT. This shouldn't be a problem. I have repaired my own home several times with insurance money. Frankly, you get more bang for your buck.

I had a pipe burst and flooded my basement when I was out of town. Luckily I had a guy staying in my house. He woke up to wet feet but was smart enough to turn off the water main.

Being a full service general contractor at the time. The adjuster cut a check and I remodeled my entire basement and had money to spare!

Good luck:thumbup:


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## carlwatson (Nov 3, 2012)

Sandy has really given some hard wounds which will be very hard to recover from, anyways I know a certified roofing contractor - Rhino Gutter Guard. Go to their website for more info.


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## jeffroofing (Feb 18, 2012)

Update on the roof and insurance claim.

The independent adjuster that came out agreed the roof was real bad on one side and needed full replacement and the other needed repair...

Once the idependent adjuster report got to his supervisor , he didn't mention anything about replacing half the roof or repair, just re-sealing to the adjuster. he also did not provide my pictures to his supervisor or mention anything about the newly formend mold on a portion of the roof plywood .. (maybe he did maybe he didn't_ very frustrating because the roof is 6 years old, 30 year gaf timberline 5" exposure architectural shingles with like 65 percent of the shingles all over the roof that are loose


So now the insurance company is trying to tell me the shingles look good and that they will seal back down and only want to pay me 500 to reseal the shingles.

I know as a contractor the whole roof needs to be replaced. 

I provided an estimate for the full replacement of the roof and now they are saying that they don't think they can do a reinspection off of my estimate because i own the company and its my property.. you know how hard it is to get someone to give you an estimate when you are a roofing company yourself?
i have never even heard of a reinspection, i usually prepare estimates and the insurance company talks to me and then they meet you in price and cut the check , never have they came back to reinspect. 

jeeze... I have gotten peoples whole roofs replaced with 3 cracked shingles in the fields with no problem with tough companys like Allstate. 

any reccomendations on what to do? it feels like rape that they don't want to pay for something i pay into.


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## larryb (Jul 22, 2010)

You can contract the entire job yourself. Just be sure you price the work at RTA pricing instead of what the ins co will offer to pay and make sure they pay for everything (less your deductible). I mean, all damaged vents, flashings, skylites, DE, etc. Since you will not be paying a sales commission on your own property, you might want to consider hiring a PA unless you are absolutely sure you can get everything paid properly.

This might help you as well: www.burcos.com/recover.htm


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## Pie in the Sky (Dec 21, 2011)

The last thing I would do is hire a PA... 

if the roof is legitimately damaged than ask for the reinspect or an engineers inspection. Shingles definitely will reseal if thats the only issue. Technically they are not "Damaged" until they are creased.. Post some photos...


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## vtroofing (Sep 27, 2009)

Larry- What's with the bow tie? Chevy guy all of sudden?


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## dougger222 (Aug 13, 2010)

I know a contractor who had an insurance loss on his roofing and siding was paid about 20% under Xactimate regular pricing. In the parameters in Xactimate it's auto set for contractor but there's a tab you can hit for homeowners doing the work. 

My brother had a loss that went over $20K and he's a contractor and did all the work himself. He told the adjuster this after he noticed all his roofing equipment. The conversation hinged on the fact that he has to hire out some help on his own home just like any other customers. Profit has to be realized to cover ongoing expenses just like any customers job. The adjuster said the payment would be made in full.

Had a loss on my rental property last year, $30K for hail. The insurance paid full price and even threw in 10% OH&P.

As far as the OP's roof...
Request another adjuster. Since your state don't match like MN it may be tough getting a whole new roof.


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## larryb (Jul 22, 2010)

Pie in the Sky said:


> The last thing I would do is hire a PA...
> 
> if the roof is legitimately damaged than ask for the reinspect or an engineers inspection. Shingles definitely will reseal if thats the only issue. Technically they are not "Damaged" until they are creased.. Post some photos...


I'm with you on the no PA, in most cases. However, even an experienced contractor without enough experience dealing with P&C insurance could get pinched. Gotta be a local guy with that experience that would be willing to help out for a few bucks, I presume.


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## larryb (Jul 22, 2010)

vtroofing said:


> Larry- What's with the bow tie? Chevy guy all of sudden?


 
Hey, wait a minute...:no: was my lovely wifes idea :yes:


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## snowenvy (Jan 5, 2013)

Adjusters will let you prepare your own invoices and even bill out your own time. This is nice for when you need to save money and can do something yourself. 

Kansas City Roofing, Siding, Windows and Decks


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## buildpinnacle (Apr 18, 2009)

Shingles sealed with a bastard, non factory applied sealant will accelerate blistering of the shingle. Not to mention it does not put the insured back into a pre-storm condition. The policy will dictate how to win this battle. The simple fact that no commenting roofer knew or thought of my first sentence proves you need a PA. Carriers play differently with us. Take Larry's advice. Hire a PA. They will probably double your claim. Just don't pay more than 10%. That is a fair fee.


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## Pie in the Sky (Dec 21, 2011)

I don’t want to get in a big argument but since its mostly Spam on here right now and this is a legitimate thread Ill BITE! Remember this is my opinion, I don’t know all PA’s and have one that’s a friend.. I ask him how he sleeps at night all the time though!!! 

Commissions charged by public adjustors are regulated by the state. I believe NY is 12.5%. In working out there this is what they seem to be getting. How do you figure 10% a “fair” price???? All I am saying is an insurance company will stop working WITH you real quickly is you hire a PA. PA’s are full of opinions with little facts. First off, Hand tabbing does not lead to preliminary blistering. Fully adhering a shingle in plastic cement CAN lead to granule loss. But not always. In fact ALL roofing manufacturers have a specification for hand tabbing over a certain roof pitch or when the shingles are installed in cool weather. Also just because a shingle is no longer adhered does not mean it is damaged. Nor does it mean it was caused by wind. In fact it is rarely caused by wind. In fact I am guessing the side where they are all un-adhered is the south side of the house??? It is usually a function of age, thermal expansion and contraction, and initial adhesion properties. So the one study that has been done on shingle adhesion after a wind event shows what? The shingles re-adhere. Do your shingles still work? They shed water, they function as designed, they will perform just as long as they would had wind not pulled them up. If we talk missing or creased shingles it’s a different story. 

I guess I have a problem about defining what making the customer “Whole” is. PA’s like to throw around these terms from the policy completely misinterpreting what the policy is for. To insure a loss. No loss no claim. Let me give you two examples:

I walked a metal roof with a PA. no damage other than a few dings in some vents. Then he pulls out his chalk and starts rubbing all over the roof. This roofs 20 years old in CO. Its been through 20 hail storms. There are going to be dents. But unless you rub chalk on them or wait till 4:55pm when the light is just perfect, you can’t see them. Furthermore this roof has 20 years life left.. why would you rip it off and put it in a landfill??? How green is that? In my opinion this is a frivolous claim. And remember this is why your insurance is so high!

Another example was a claim several years old. All types of roofs, an initial payout was made, some strange circumstances happened, a PA got involved. From around a 50K dollar payout the PA was claiming 1.25 Million dollars in damage. Everything that was old and beat-up on this unmaintained roof. So what happened in the end? They paid me 20K to walk the building for days and give a full report including matching up interior damage with exterior damage. I came up with about 50K in damage. Went to court, Insurance company won. In my opinion this is a frivolous claim. And remember, this is why your insurance is so high!

These guys want me to respect them but I don’t respect stealing. And at least in these two cases (and all the other cases I’ve worked with PA’s except 1) they were stealing. If you want my respect be fair and honest. That’s all! I’m a likable guy. I negotiate with good roofers all the time on these projects. With a mutual respect and reasonable agreements, all parties are happy. 

All that said, it is possible your insurance company is taking advantage of you. Could be a mistake, could be an inexperienced adjuster. I doubt it, but it’s possible. This is very rare. In that case, maybe a public adjustor is your best bet. I’m certainly not making a recommendation either way. Another option is to hire an engineer or a reputable roof consultant. It’ll cost you out of pocket but this is an “Uninterested party” which will be much more respected by the insurance company. And if the roof is truly damaged, what do you have to lose? Insurance companies will sometimes even reimburse.


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## buildpinnacle (Apr 18, 2009)

Dustin, an insurance claim should always be scoped around the language of the policy. 'Loss' and 'Damage' are terms that are not always one in the same. Keep in mind, the policy is written by the Carrier and any ambiguous language is their responsibility since they had the opportunity to make the language clear. If dents are not considered damage, a simple few word sentence could clearly state that. Some policies do specifically define that the peril must cause a reduction in the products ability to perform its intended use. Others simply state that there must be a direct physical loss. A dent in a panel is a direct physical loss in my opinion. The physical state of the product has been changed. If the policy language affords it, it should be scoped. If it does not and there is no additional evidence of loss such as breaching of protective coatings, etc, it should not be scoped. Again, the policy language should dictate the loss estimate. 

Insofar as your experience with PA's I am not surprised. I have said for many years that roofers and PA's alike have worked very hard to earn their bad reputations. However, my feeling is that the professionals in both trades far outweighs the amateurs you apparently have had run-ins with. A quality public adjuster will only scope what needs to be scoped in accordance to the policy language. For what it is worth, 10% is the fee cap in the state of Texas and I find it to be a more than fair percentage aside from supplemental work. I liken the reputations of the PA's and roofers to those of the 'experts', consultants, and engineers who bill 95% of their business through the insurance carriers. Do I respect their patsy positions? No, I do not. I have found that there are very few qualified parties in the expert field that truly understand the composition of roofing materials, how they are made, what they are made from, and how they react to impact in various situations and conditions. 

It is clear by your post which side of the fence you earn your living on and I respect your opinions and positions. However, it is reckless to promote the insurance industry as the white knights atop their trusty steeds who are hard pressed to slay the filthy roofers and thieving PA's. It is no secret that claims are wrongfully denied or underpaid on a regular basis. Is it malicious? Is it a conspiracy? It really doesn't matter, but I generally say no. What matters is making the insured whole. That isn't always easily done. Trying to figure out which side should catch the break on that dented metal roof that could've been hailed on previously isn't always a cut and dry issue. The carrier has a responsibility to investigate and document what they are insuring. Simply hiring a company such as yours during the underwriting process to inspect and document the roofs pre-existing conditions could easily put those types of questions to rest. Their lack of doing their due diligence should not be held against an insured if the date and damage is not absolute and clear. 

And for what it is worth, in regards to the wind issue, I have never seen one yet that could be scoped from a desk with absolute protocols. It is generally clear whether the tabs never sealed from installation or whether they have been lifted by an external force of some kind. The bulletins you mention all warn against excessive sealant pitentially causing blistering of e shingles. Insofar as when it is warranted, the party scoping the loss should act responsibly and reasonably when making the determination of the repair. If three shingles on an entire slope have been lifted, I would venture to say that re-sealing them is a very applicable approach. However, if several test areas are inspected and 35% of the tabs are lifted, I would not agree. There is a current criminal investigation regarding this exact issue in Texas ongoing. In regards to rate hikes, the carrier in question raised their ratesacross the board within days of the announcement that they were being investigated. Maybe they just anticipated covering all those pesky PA fees with the rate hike, but I would venture to say it was moreso an avenue to cover the hundreds of millions of dollars in monies they are looking at having to pay out on wrongfully denied 'lift' claims.


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## Pie in the Sky (Dec 21, 2011)

I’m not trying to attack you personally but more show someone what it means to involve a PA. PA not meaning you but as a group. Ask anyone in here I am sometimes harsh and don’t accept change easily. New products, forget about it… But Ill try to respond so it make sense without offending anyone. :whistling:

First, to address what “side of the fence” I am on I do get a good amount of insurance work but as week speak I only have 2 storm related jobs open. One is for a homeowner and one is for an insurance company. I have a great reputation amongst private owners here in CO. Why? because I am honest and unbiased. I have a great reputation amongst insurance companies nationally. Why? because I am honest and unbiased. Unfortunately homeowners cannot always afford to pay and I have, in very limited cases, worke pro bono on these. My Reports are the same either way, I tell this to the homeowners that right up front I am here to give an honest determination of the condition of their building what I believe is damaged. Most of them say that’s what they want. In some cases they tell me never mind. I am a true uninterested party. My reports often times (30% last time I checked) ruled in favor of the owner. This isn’t because I pick and choose but because I am consistent in my observation and reporting. 

I am not portraying adjusters as you say: _“__However, it is reckless to promote the insurance industry as the white knights atop their trusty steeds who are hard pressed to slay the filthy roofers and thieving PA's.”_ I just said sdjustors generally do a good job. I see it like the Refs in football. They make a bad call and they are strung up but they make a lot of calls throughout a game you have to expect some bad ones. As far as Filthy roofers, it seems to me that _YOU_ are the one portraying them as such with this statement _“I have said for many years that roofers and PA's alike have worked very hard to earn their bad reputations”_ I respect roofers very much, Having been one from age 16 to 22. Some of the best are right here in this board. A PA is making recommendation on the anticipation of making a 10% commission. I’m sorry but I have a hard time respecting that persons opinion as an “uninterested party” you speak of these engineering firms making 95% of their money from insurance companies but don’t the PA’s make 100% off of coming in and writing an estimate? I am a professional, and while we are onsite I will act as such. You won’t see me getting into shouting matches with these guys even though they try. But one time a very well-known PA warmed up to me and said “Dustin, you know if you throw enough S#!t at a wall, eventually some of it will stick”. 

You are giving me the same arguments all PA’s have and I will be honest, I am not an insurance expert. I am a building envelope expert. I do not pretend to know policies or how to interpret them. and guess what? I like it that way. It allows me to remain unbiased. And I tell this to owners too. If you want to know the condition of your roof and what the damage is from, I am a good option. 

As far as This goes:



buildpinnacle said:


> And for what it is worth, in regards to the wind issue, I have never seen one yet that could be scoped from a desk with absolute protocols. It is generally clear whether the tabs never sealed from installation or whether they have been lifted by an external force of some kind. The bulletins you mention all warn against excessive sealant pitentially causing blistering of e shingles. Insofar as when it is warranted, the party scoping the loss should act responsibly and reasonably when making the determination of the repair. If three shingles on an entire slope have been lifted, I would venture to say that re-sealing them is a very applicable approach. However, if several test areas are inspected and 35% of the tabs are lifted, I would not agree. There is a current criminal investigation regarding this exact issue in Texas ongoing. In regards to rate hikes, the carrier in question raised their ratesacross the board within days of the announcement that they were being investigated. Maybe they just anticipated covering all those pesky PA fees with the rate hike, but I would venture to say it was moreso an avenue to cover the hundreds of millions of dollars in monies they are looking at having to pay out on wrongfully denied 'lift' claims.


 
Now you say you can’t tell from a desk but you seemed pretty sure when you said “Shingles sealed with a bastard, non factory applied sealant *will* accelerate blistering of the shingle.” This is an absolute FALSE statement. If it said can instead of will I would agree with it. But you didn’t. Do you know why plastic cement can cause blistering???? I do. And when you know why you can keep it from happening. I also know a roofer can easily seal every shingle on a roof in almost no time at all, I’ve seen it done dozens of times and new shingles and a few on old. 

I realize you are in Texas and I am pretty sure I know the Engineering firm you run into most often and I won’t disagree that some guys seem to “know where their bread is buttered” and are Biased because of that. Well Just to plug my company, We have an office in TX and the one engineer there has a roofing background. You may run into him one day. What’s crucial in my industry (roof consulting not insurance) is to diversify so you are not relying on insurance companies for your main business. What’s funny is business builds when you are honest and unbiased.


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## buildpinnacle (Apr 18, 2009)

Dustin,

I appreciate your comments. In your business, policy is irrelevant. You are correct in scoping the work from a non policy standpoint because that is what you are retained for. It is the carriers job to take your findings an determine if coverage applies. 

I started in the roofing industry as well. However, I stand by what said. Be careful not to over-interpret it and try to recognize the degree of levity in it as well. The fact is, both PA's and roofers have worked hard earning the bad reputations they are perceived to have. As much as I would hate to admit it, I would almost venture to say that are more poor roofers and PA's than not. Now, before I get strung up, let me explain. The roofing business is one that generally takes little investment or knowledge to get into. You literally can get some cards made and go to knocking doors. Most states are unlicensed and unregulated. The PA business is a little different as you at least need not have a felony and have to be bondable but those are pretty low requirements as well. You can study up, pass a test, and after a few hundred bucks be out there taking on clients and fighting with adjusters. Unfortunately, by sheer numbers, those guys outweigh the good contractors and PA's. Their actions overshadow the hard work and good that the rest of the lot are trying to accomplish. A handful of states have solid licensing requirements but as Grumpy would probably agree, it hasn't kept some of the bad apples from spoiling the bunch. There is no reason for either group to kid themselves by thinking they have a glowing reputation. Those that do, I commend you. Those that try to promote their industry, I commend you. So, my comment was not an attempt at labeling anyone. Just a statement of opinion with a couple facetious darts tossed in to whirl back your way. 

Let me clarify one last thing. A PA is a consumer advocate with a capitalist twist. They are not an uninterested party, nor should they ever be portayed as one. They don't have the same role as someone such as yourself. They are hired to represent the insured and their interests. Much like the adjuster for the carrier is retained or tasked to represent the carrier and ensure their interests are protected. Whatever the fee arrangement, it is the PA's duty to represent the insured to ensure that they receive the maximum, properly scoped settlement. Having a problem with this arrangement would be no different than a judge having a problem with an accused criminal having a proper defense.


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## Pie in the Sky (Dec 21, 2011)

SO let me get this straight... So your comparing your roll to that of a defense attorney? :laughing: your right about the 10% being Cheap, Aattorneys are 30-50%

THis argument could go on and on but enough said though... Your right there may be cases where an owner needs some assistance. 

Let me ask you this.. A legitimate million dollar commercial claim... why not pay a roof consultant to do a thorough analysis for 10K to give to the Insurance company. The owner just saved himself 90K...


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## buildpinnacle (Apr 18, 2009)

Pie in the Sky said:


> SO let me get this straight... So your comparing your roll to that of a defense attorney? :laughing: your right about the 10% being Cheap, Aattorneys are 30-50%
> 
> THis argument could go on and on but enough said though... Your right there may be cases where an owner needs some assistance.
> 
> Let me ask you this.. A legitimate million dollar commercial claim... why not pay a roof consultant to do a thorough analysis for 10K to give to the Insurance company. The owner just saved himself 90K...


Dustin, it is my experience that most legitimate million dollar roof claims have $250,000 offers from the carrier when they hit my desk. Hence, settling for the proper amount, increasing the claim by $750,000 thus netting the insured an additional deserved $675,000 is a bargain for 10%. They could hire a roof consultant but most of them are already working for the carriers. :laughing: Hell, at $10k, most of them would be taking a massive pay cut. 

On a side note, if some of the 'industry darling' consultants would spend as much money advertising to the insured's as they do to the carriers, they could pick up some of that business. :whistling:


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## Moore Roofing (Feb 4, 2013)

Hi there. I'm a roofing contractor in Florida, so I've seen many hurricanes. Without question, insurance companies should pay for complete replacement of your roof. Policies may be different in Florida, but we will actually go out and inspect damaged roofs in the area for free, just as a gesture for this very reason. Good luck to you!


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## Dallas-Roofing (May 10, 2013)

I would say that you can submit it. I would back everything up with as much proof as possible. The pictures of the damage should show some kind of proof that this is your house. Something in the back drop would be sufficient. A tree, rood, or fence line, etc. When dealing with adjusters, you really don't know exactly what your going to get. 

Devin Mahdi
Dallas Roofing


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