# Cedar Shakes Intall



## LLL (Apr 5, 2011)

Hi all - new to the site, I'm currently bidding a cedar shake project - we have done a hand full but not for quite some time. What kind of production are you getting - I have a good crew that can roof about anything we do quality work. 

Any input greatly appreciated - its 6/12 few valleys little not to difficult. 

Thanks, 

Joe


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## Interloc (Apr 6, 2009)

What are you askin?


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Double or triple the ammount of time vs asphalt shingle.


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## LLL (Apr 5, 2011)

Thanks- I was asking a production question. GC is supplying the material and I'm giving a labor price for 60sq of new const I bid at $200 per sq to install


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## Interloc (Apr 6, 2009)

200 for labor on what your describing is average around here.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

$200 for cedar, labor and profit, I wouldn't get out of bed.


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## LLL (Apr 5, 2011)

North Central WI not Chicago - what would you do it for Grump? Thanks for the reply's fellas


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Oh there are guys here that'll do it for $110. 

I recall the good ol days of pricing a job when I first got into roofing sales. take the material and triple it and that was the sale price. 1/3 for the materials, 1/3 for the installers and 1/3 for the company and salsman to split. It's got alot more complex since I reallized how foolish that is. 

I can never be the cheapest. I can't compete with the guys charging $110 a square and then crying they aren't making any money. Roofing is a risky business and carries alot of liability. If I am not going to make any money, it only makes sense to not do any work. I'd rather not put in a day of work and wory if the roof ever leaks I have lost money.

Even if you are the salesman, even if you are the installer, even if you are the foreman, even if you are the manager of the business; I beleive you must pay yourself for all positions. Example: Someone once said he didn't understand why I don't use dumpsters. He said dump trucks were so much cheaper. I explained tonage, vehicular over head and paying someone to drive to the dump just didn't make it worth it for me. He said he takes it to the dump on the way home so he didn't have to pay someone. Well DUH he just worked an hour for free, seems friggin stupid if you ask me.

The same principal applies. The way I look at it is I don't really want to work. One day I want to remove me from the equation completely except for share holder. I don't want to be the saleman and office manager and all the other hats I wear so I have to price the job like I have to pay a salesman a foreman, a production manager, an office manager, an administrative assistant etc... and all the people that would touch the job in a "real" company. 

First off let's assume you pay your employees hourly. Let's assume a cedar rip and replace is a 2 hour propisition per square. If it's not who cares, we are going to say it is for purposes of conversation. So that $20 an hour gets bumped up for FICA, WC, GL, vacation time, health insurance, sick leave, 401k contributions and all the things an employee would have had he worked for a "Real" company. truth be told I don't offer health insurance or sick leave or vacation days, but I REALLY REALLY wish I could afford to offer these benefits to my employees. As a matter of fact I have begun to price my jobs like I do or there is no way I ever can.

That $20 is easily now $40 just to break even on FICA, WC and GL, even more if you add the benefits. Let's just go with $60 break even for now. If a square of cedar takes 2 man hours to rip and install, then you're up to $120 a square break even. Who the hell wants to break even?! Running a business is an investment. You should be seeing a return on your investment. I'll get to this later. 

Running a business costs money to keep the lights on, advertising, trucks, tools, equipment, cell phones etc... I figured one day that this was $1,000 per day. well let's say you have a 5 man crew (4 roofers 1 helper) they would be installing 16 squares per day. 1,000 / 16 = $62 per square for over head, we are now up to $182. 

I say you should be making 10% no less on your investment. Now we are up to $200. Normally I add this after the fact but it doesn't matter I am proving a point not sending a rocket into space.

Paying the sales man/project manager, most work for 10% that's $220 a square. 

If you are bidding the job you take a risk. I say pad the job for errors and ommissions, maybe 5%, that's $231 a square. 



Now my numbers may be more or less than yours. Roofing WC in IL is 42% of payroll. But regardless you get a good understanding of where my pricing falls. This is not an attempt at collusion, just a manner in explaining how one can know their own numbers without trusting anonymnous pricing per square over the internet. My pricing really means nothing to your pricing, but if you know HOW to charge, not just WHAT to charge, you're golden.

One more thing I want to point out about pricing by the square. There's nothing wrong with it so long as you know what's included in that square. Let's use the $231 number for an example. Does that include vents, leads, flashings, waste, hip/ridge, starter? In my world, it does not. All that would be extra. So you have to be REAL careful when people start spitting out price per square.


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## LLL (Apr 5, 2011)

Thanks - Grump that does make a lot sense and it looks like we have the same grasp on how to run a roofing business - I was looking for some help here and you guys provided a ton of good info - remember this job is new const and no tear off needed all material supplied by GC and they are even drying the roof in as they are building it - So I think that $200 a sq is a fair # for this particular job. Our wc rates are high but u got me beat. 

Side note: talked to homeowner yesterday said they have a price to do 30sq (5/12 1layer) tear off and replace with CT landmark at 202 per sq!! They blew me otta the water at 270 gotta love the spring - working at loss is not my thing the guy at 202 even beat his buddy's workn on the side $ - all you can do is say good luck if decide to go that way. 

We also had a meeting yesterday to dicuss the OSHA standard for resi roofing and hopefully this whole new directive will help lower wc in the next 10yrs 

Thanks
joe 
www.ecroof.com


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

If they're drying it in, sure 200 is fair. I didn't know that. Well.... actually I hated it when the carpenters did the dry in since I always had to rip up the felt int he valleys to install the ice shield. 

Actuallyt he directive from OSHA isn't new, it's old. There were interim rules which are expiring reverting the rules to the previously more strict. I also doubt the greedy insurance will lower their rates.


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## dougger222 (Aug 13, 2010)

An easy 6 pitch not very cut up $200 a square for new construction seems decent. The problem with new custruction is the builders try to find the lowest sub out there. If you can get $200 a square labor only from a builder to put down shakes (not cedar shingles) you did ok.

A couple weekends ago my wife and I looked at a 3.5M dollar house on the parade of homes home tour. The house had cedar shakes/brand new build. I peaked out a window overlooking the first story roof and was sort of shocked to see the roofers gapped the shakes 1/2-3/4 inch. Some of the shakes they put down I wouldn't want on my fish house!


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