# What are you charging?



## PTROOFING

Hello all! New to this forum and have a question.

I have been in buisiness since 1999 and have had steady work all along. No complaints here. We specialize in residential roofing but also have many maintenence accounts for low slope commercial roofs. My question is this:

On residential roofs, here is what we do:
Tear off existing roofing.
Install ice and water guard to eaves, valleys etc.
New Drip edge
Titanium UDL-25 synthetic underlayment
Re-flash chimneys
Ridge or box ventilation (depending on roof)
30YR Timberline shingles
New vent stack flashings
Clean up and haul away all job related debris.
7YR contractors guarantee.

What are you charging? We operate in Ohio and western PA. I am charging $255.00 per sq. for a walkable roof ( up to a 8/12 pitch ) wether its a 1 or 2 layer tear off. I land 80% of my quotes, but some customers call back and tell me I'm $1,000 - $2,0000 higher???

A typical 25sq ranch tear off I'm selling for $6,375.00 plus options such as power fans or any wood replacement. My cost for GAF/ELK 30yr is $75.00.


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## RemStar

That sounds like a fair price. In my area I charge around 220 but dont include I&W on the eaves, or new roof edge. 220 is a competitive rate in my area but some guys are down around 190, but i dont think they are running the proper insurance & wcb.


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## RemStar

I was thinking about venturing into the metal roofing market, can someone pls share what they get per sq. for metal in comparison to thier standard ashphalt install?

Much appreciated.


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## abear3

we have been selling and installing all different types of metal roofs for 10 years. most of the time you can expect to bid a steel roof 2.5 to 3 times the amount of asphalt. it will vary depending on steel thickness, coatings, type of metal and the manufacturer


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## Ridgewalker

Prices do vary around the country. My bid cost for the reroof list would be around $ 320 per sq. $ 255 would cover my install only on a 30year comp And it doesn't cover Water & ice protection dont really needed around here.
I am in Nor Cal. and that barley covers my Payroll tax, workersComp.,Liability, Overhead, and some pocket money for me.


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## RooferJim

its rare to find anyone under 400 per square for reroofing in this area, in some parts of metroBoston the norm is around 600 to 700. Roofing is hard work, why do it for nothing ?

RooferJim


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## daviddeschaine

*Roofing Price - RooferJim Right On!*

Roofing Is hard work..... Your right Why Do It For Nothing? 



RooferJim said:


> its rare to find anyone under 400 per square for reroofing in this area, in some parts of metroBoston the norm is around 600 to 700. Roofing is hard work, why do it for nothing ?
> 
> RooferJim


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## daviddeschaine

*You Set The Price - You Need To Sell The Job!*

The Going RATE is set in your mind...  -- You need to make a profit to stay in Business - *Sell Your Jobs, Not Just Bid Them!*

I'm sure everyone hears the samething? The Price Is TOO High!

*So What add $2000 to the job so you can pay your BILLS! :thumbup:*




Ridgewalker said:


> Prices do vary around the country. My bid cost for the reroof list would be around $ 320 per sq. $ 255 would cover my install only on a 30year comp And it doesn't cover Water & ice protection dont really needed around here.
> I am in Nor Cal. and that barley covers my Payroll tax, workersComp.,Liability, Overhead, and some pocket money for me.


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## Grumpy

I wouldn't make any money at $255 for what you described. If I am not going to have $1k per day gross profit after labor, burdens, materials and equipment then it isn't worth it. That's just me though, I know several companies charging more than me, and countless charging less. 

I don't know your situation but what I see in the contracting trades is that the owner wears too many hats, works too many hours, and doesn't earn enough. Maybe you are doing the sale, so you think you shouldn't charge a saleman's commission. wrong. Remember you are doing the sale. maybe you are running the crew so you just add on your hours as if you were an hourly employee. That's bad, if you want to be an hourly employee go work somewhere else. At $255, for my area, I can't see how anyone is making more than a living... or cheating their taxes and insurance. 

If you were in my area, there are plenty of guys charging the same and they are all a scurge to the industry, and should consider taking business and finance classes at their local jr college during the winter months.


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## RemStar

Well you can only really charge what the market will bear in your area.... now I know what works for me.... and when it comes down 2 it at the end of the day we would all like to be getting that $1000 sq. deal all day every day, but its really not realistic.

We are also all in different situations, business wise and in terms of what we are offering, even how are consumers view us, so there really is no universal figure of what you *should* be charging, Although more is always better.

I just know personally in my area my rate is competitive and at the end of the day I am getting jobs, barely enough to keep a crew busy, so I dont think raising my rate at this time is a savey buisness move.


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## Grumpy

Keping your guys busy is good for them. Taking a cut on your profit is bad for you. I'd rather do less work and make the same than do more work, take on more liability and make the same. For me the math doesn't add up. Every time I take a job "to keep the guys busy" I end up bending over and taking it up the butt. 

It took me 6 years to figure out that I was working for my employees and subcontractors, rather than them working for me. 

I know what my costs are and I know how much I want to earn thus I know what I need to charge. Everyone's price will be different based upon their costs and how much they think they are worth. I place a high value of worth on myself and my workers because I know we do a better job than the average, so we deserve more than the average. Then again I am not the most expensive either.


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## daviddeschaine

*You Nailed It Grumpy!!!*

*Well Said Grumpy... :thumbup:*

*"It took me 6 years to figure out that I was working for my employees and subcontractors, rather than them working for me."* 



Grumpy said:


> Keping your guys busy is good for them. Taking a cut on your profit is bad for you. I'd rather do less work and make the same than do more work, take on more liability and make the same. For me the math doesn't add up. Every time I take a job "to keep the guys busy" I end up bending over and taking it up the butt.
> 
> It took me 6 years to figure out that I was working for my employees and subcontractors, rather than them working for me.
> 
> I know what my costs are and I know how much I want to earn thus I know what I need to charge. Everyone's price will be different based upon their costs and how much they think they are worth. I place a high value of worth on myself and my workers because I know we do a better job than the average, so we deserve more than the average. Then again I am not the most expensive either.


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## RooferJim

the roofing industry is in crisis. It is filled with people that don't have a clue pricing jobs. You have to try to educate your custumer.


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## Grumpy

Amen Jim it is. At the start of the year the prices I was competing against were so low it was sick. It really beat me up emotionally to constantly see guys bidding way below what I could even do a job for. 

It's like these guys have no idea how to price a job, ask someone the going rate, then drop it a couple bucks because they want the job, then someone asks them the going rate and that someone drops it a couple bucks and on and on and on. 

Yes we do need to educate our customers. This is absolutely a must, regardless of the economy there are always cheap hacks out there. However some customers just do not care. Furthermore when we have a situation like I saw this spring, when the customer is getting 4 bids and 2 of the 4 are doing work for break even or less... It's real hard to win jobs except from the extremely saavy consumer. They are out there, but getting harder and harder to find.

This storm situation doesn't help either. It really brings out the worst in people when the storm chasers hit an area. It's like a virus that spreads from unscrupolous contractors to the general public. The only way these storm chasers are making money is on the fact that as the storm work dries up they will skip town leaving their subs and suppliers with a million dollar debt. Some consumers will get liens filed and have to pay for that "free roof".


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## OUTLAW

The supply houses prolong it when they keep extending credit to these low-ballers. I have seen guys go bankrupt and not pay their supplier, only to open another account with the same supplier a few months later.


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## cavesrus

290 plus for something n that area a flat price is so hard to do since I up charge per item etc. I'm on the upper end or charging like to get 34 to 38% profit per job or 47 to 51% mark up still way to low is u figure in overhead. I still do lots of ads some work some don't but I do not door knock ever. I know I loose jobs all the time due to price I put up a price match for apple to apple 99% of time there bid is to cage or 15# felt etcetcetc. After I'm done with customer I usual get job at my price.

Remember 10% profit your
10 company
10+ for overhead


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## charlotteroofers

We usually Charge anywhere from 190 up to 270 per square in the charlotte area. I'm from New York originally so I still do my Roof installs to code in NY. You wouldn't believe how many contractors here just use #15 felt or nothing at all...alot of guys here that work for beer money it seems...lol...We always use Ice & water in the Valleys, Rakes, Eaves and around dormers, always change out the flashing, We use Fiberglass underlayment or Synthetic (depends on customers budget), Cobra 3 type Ridge vent and Certainteed shingles (6 nails per shingle) because they have a good quality shingle and stand behind their warranty. 
We give a 10yr Workmanship warranty when customers buy into a Complete Roofing system with us and we do not ever install Roof Overs.....


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## ecenur

RemStar said:


> I was thinking about venturing into the metal roofing market, can someone pls share what they get per sq. for metal in comparison to thier standard ashphalt install?
> 
> Much appreciated.


metal roofing is quite popular now some people actually think that metal roofing is much better then the standard asphalt roofing for a variety of reasons. Metal roofing costs more but it is a good investment, it all depends on the type of metal you want to use for the roof. The metals variety for aluminum, copper, steel, zinc etc.


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## acc

I do agree with bidding with the going rate in your area.

I like to keep my quotes in the middle to high range, so customers will know that we don't do cheap work, " Quality Doesn't Cost...It Pays !!! " . 

We do have a hand full of roofers that like to under cut the rest of us, but they are known as "Backyard Roofers " . We ususally end up getting a call from their customers, within a year or so to go and do a repair which was neglected by these Backyard Roofers. Although sometimes it is important to get a job which you might know will create you some leads or even get you a high paying contract.

Our going rate usually run between 300-400 /sq, incl re/re, and all materials supplied.

Metal roofs are a hard sell up here but there is a small demand for it. You can usually make a good profit with these contract !!!


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## dougger222

Every area is different. A roofing company in Texas may be getting rich at $250 a square while a roofing company in New York is going broke at $250 a square.

A few weeks ago bid a roof in WI. 55sq easy 4/12 no valleys no step flashing. I bid around $265 a square, one layer. Figured $125 a square for labor and could get a good sub to do it for $75 a square. When I told the price to the home owner he said I was $4,000 more than the other bids. I said thanks for your time and saved a stamp and left it at that.

What I've found out is even on insurance work WI pays way lower than MN. Basicly a $10K roof here in MN is worth $8K in WI.

I do most of my standard bidding at $275 a square for easy one layer walkers. For insurnance it's usually another $100 per square. This is for all the time it takes dealing with adjusters and mortgage companies and paying out before collection.


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## charlotteroofers

There are Hacks out there everywhere and in order to Survive you have to let go of the customers who want to nickel and dime you to death. I charge a Fair price so I can make an honest Living, of course things are always tougher and more competitive in this down economy and I do keep that in mind.... I always ask customers " Do you nickel and dime your Dentist to Death" "do you call up 3 different orthodontists to see who has the lowest price"?? ....NO of course they don't......Anyone can tell you that they're selling you the Mercedes but what happens when you get to the dealer and he hands you the keys to a Kia??? .....A Roof is the most Vital part of a Home and without a Good one, installed properly using High Quality materials and Installers you're just pissing away money........As far as my business I dont want those customers who have no respect for my profession and think I should work for Table Scraps, as far as I'm concerned they can go call the Hack and pay the Piper later when it starts pissing from their ceiling and their calls to the Hack go unanswered......LOL...Then they call me and have no choice but to Pay!


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## RooferJim

Your a major lowballer in the 3's in Massachusetts. I wonder how much cheaper you guys can get material. our dump costs are also very high as is insurence. my low today for any shingle strip and reroof is in the mid 400's. I come to this number after knowing all my costs. There are many roofers in the metro west towns that are around 10 dollars a square foot and stay busy.


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## charlotteroofers

Everything in the South is cheaper . I pay about $72 a Sq for Certainteed Landmark 30yr and it is about $31 a Ton for Dumping.


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## RemStar

wow 31 a ton, Its 85 a ton where i am.


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## Billy Luttrell

25/ton here for landfill.


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## PTROOFING

As of today, we are at $255.00 per sq for a 30yr dimensional, titanium felt, ice guard, disposal etc. with the addition of about $17.00 per lf of aluminum flashing per chimney/outside wall flashings. 

Come spring, we will probably be at $265.00 per sq and $20.00 per lf flashings.


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## apehangeralfy

$13 per ton here. 

I'm mid 2's with full peel-n-stick and 30 yr Landmarks, 2-6/12 box.... add any cut and I go up... all wood-work is extra $50 by the sheet or cost plus $50 an hour


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## Roofmaster417

I do alot of work here in SW Missouri and depending where I am working it varies with dump fees, like if I am working in joplin,missouri I have several friends that I take to the landfill when dumping because if they show a waterbill I pay $7.00,yep 7 bucks and that is per load NOT per ton,when I work around home (Springfield,Mo).,I take it to APAC which extracts the oil for the highways and that costs me around $12.00 per ton.As far as price per sq.,I know that it has already been said that it depends on your area.,I get around $300 per sq. for walkers in springfield but in joplin I get $275 and these are hard bids.,with insurance work add about $100-$125 more.I was underbid by a local contractor 3 times last year for a total of $8000.00,,lowballers are always going to be out there and the lowballers whine and cry when they get slice and diced,.but when the HO's get a shoddy job then they too start whining and sobbing about , how they never seen it coming and why does this always happen to me. I will tell why.,its because they invite it by greed,you get what you pay for.
________
Pregnant Xxx


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## buildpinnacle

Pricing questions are dangerous on sites like this. There is NO way to determine whether a 'SQ' price is appropriate from TX to MN. Square pricing is dangerous. It makes no difference what your buddies or competition are bidding. You should know what it takes for your company to cover expenses, overhead, and make the desired profit margin. Most small business owners don't have a clue if they are profitable. If you're making comments like....'well, we made $1200 on that house' you are who I'm talking to. Buy Michael Stone's book 'Markup and Profit' and read it twice. You need to know what it takes for YOUR business to be profitable. 

Secondly, how many of you call yourselves bidmen. If you are bidding jobs you are a 'going out of business sale' waiting to happen. Learn to be or hire a better salesman. This business has progressed past old man overalls with pookie on his shoes and a chew in his cheek. The modern day roofer is professional, knowledgeable, technologically advanced, efficient, and much more. Be a sponge and soak up as much knowledge as you can about being a good salesman and a better businessman. Your liability is way too high in this business to work for peanuts. If you spend the time and money on professional proposals, well written, detailed, pitch books, pictures, brochures, literature, websites, and a well prepared presentation that explains the advantages of your product and installation and warns of the cost conscience decisions that homeowners are tempted to make when going through the process of buying a roof you will close more profitable jobs. It does not make you a good business man to keep your men busy. If your out of business because you installed too many roofs at cost, how does that help your men. I know it's tough because I've been there. I care about every man and woman that works for me. However, they came first and my family and business suffered for too many years. This is about my business, my family, and my bank account. My employees get paid to do their job. They get paid well if they work hard and sell more. I create the environment for them to succeed, but it is up to them to actually do it. I'm not running a daycare or a soup kitchen. 

To the OP. If you are truly new in this business, my recommendation is to spend you time and energy focusing on your business....not your competition. Find things that separate your company from them. Things like putting plywood over all windows during tear-offs, tarping walls, covering landscape, donating a % of each roofing contract to a local charity in the customers name.....etc. Take pictures of details on the roof that need corrected or high risk areas that you are going to do certain things to and go over these areas in your sales presentation. Bring the roof down to them. If you gain the trust of your potential client, are sincere, knowledgeable, and credible then price is just the number at the bottom of the page. Make it the least important part of your presentation. Good Luck!!


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## PTROOFING

buildpinnacle said:


> Pricing questions are dangerous on sites like this. There is NO way to determine whether a 'SQ' price is appropriate from TX to MN. Square pricing is dangerous. It makes no difference what your buddies or competition are bidding. You should know what it takes for your company to cover expenses, overhead, and make the desired profit margin. Most small business owners don't have a clue if they are profitable. If you're making comments like....'well, we made $1200 on that house' you are who I'm talking to. Buy Michael Stone's book 'Markup and Profit' and read it twice. You need to know what it takes for YOUR business to be profitable.
> 
> Secondly, how many of you call yourselves bidmen. If you are bidding jobs you are a 'going out of business sale' waiting to happen. Learn to be or hire a better salesman. This business has progressed past old man overalls with pookie on his shoes and a chew in his cheek. The modern day roofer is professional, knowledgeable, technologically advanced, efficient, and much more. Be a sponge and soak up as much knowledge as you can about being a good salesman and a better businessman. Your liability is way too high in this business to work for peanuts. If you spend the time and money on professional proposals, well written, detailed, pitch books, pictures, brochures, literature, websites, and a well prepared presentation that explains the advantages of your product and installation and warns of the cost conscience decisions that homeowners are tempted to make when going through the process of buying a roof you will close more profitable jobs. It does not make you a good business man to keep your men busy. If your out of business because you installed too many roofs at cost, how does that help your men. I know it's tough because I've been there. I care about every man and woman that works for me. However, they came first and my family and business suffered for too many years. This is about my business, my family, and my bank account. My employees get paid to do their job. They get paid well if they work hard and sell more. I create the environment for them to succeed, but it is up to them to actually do it. I'm not running a daycare or a soup kitchen.
> 
> To the OP. If you are truly new in this business, my recommendation is to spend you time and energy focusing on your business....not your competition. Find things that separate your company from them. Things like putting plywood over all windows during tear-offs, tarping walls, covering landscape, donating a % of each roofing contract to a local charity in the customers name.....etc. Take pictures of details on the roof that need corrected or high risk areas that you are going to do certain things to and go over these areas in your sales presentation. Bring the roof down to them. If you gain the trust of your potential client, are sincere, knowledgeable, and credible then price is just the number at the bottom of the page. Make it the least important part of your presentation. Good Luck!!


I am the OP. Been in the business for 15yrs and have owned my own business for 13yrs. I was just asking a question.

Our proposals (never hand written) always include insurance and workers' comp forms, plus detailed drawings from Eagle View. We land 80% of our bids. We do benefit from doing a lot of repair work as well. We are very sincere with our customers and always follow up with them. We also offer Visa gift cards for referrals.


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## buildpinnacle

PT . I read new to this forum and my mind went one direction. I had also read a few posts from a member who was new to the biz on several posts earlier and my mind must have mixed up the two. However, my post.....at least the meat and potatoes of it, was for any roofer in this business for 1 day or 20 years. It is important to set yourself apart. Otherwise, what benefit do the customers really have in using you? They could hire the subcrew directly and buy their own materials. Making desireable profits or lack thereof is not just a 'roofing' thing. Every business struggles with profitability. Our country is built from individuals with the will and desire to venture out and start their own small business. Unfortunately, many don't do the proper legwork, build the foundation, and learn what it takes to become succesful. There is no substitute for the school of hard knocks but preparation and education can make those knocks not hurt as much. Each one of our companies has certain strengths and weaknesses. Just like each of us individually have as well. Play off of your strengths and find ways to work around or eliminate your weeknesses.


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## vtroofing

No matter where you are no two roofs are the same, since I believe the majority or not all the RT members are re roofers then no two accesses to the roof are the same so how can anybody quote how much to charge? Calculation of materials, labor, and Profit/ overhead and submit.

I think if you jump up on the roof, measure, jump in the truck spend 15 minutes and hand the HO hand written or computer printed document to the prospective homeowner, they will wonder if you spent enough time spending their hard earned money.


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## RemStar

Your right, the real question here should be:

"What is your Gross Profit Margin?"

This is much more relevent in a global forum.


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## EliteTR

*Avg Profit %*

My avg. price per sq in south west MI is 322.00 for a 1 layer ranch 622.00 for ss metal 24g. I pay a 10% sales fee of the total price out of that. My net profit % after 87 jobs in 2010 came in at 28%. Is this an above avg %? 

"you cant fake it, if you want to make it, you gotta live it."


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## vtroofing

I've erased everything twice, let me try this again. 

I'm wondering what makes a roofer a low baller.

Understanding the responsibility of your crew (which includes wife, kids, bills ect.) and the importance of everyone maintaining a life-?

Working from a upstairs home office where as a Husband's best partner is a wife down the hall, kids chattering within earshot?

Having your office line ring to your cell phone, in your pick up?

No office staff? Sales staff? 

Being able to pay your bills, put a little aside, knowing you can do the job bare bones for $250-275, might get $400+ but selling day in day out at $350? (I'm using round per square prices yet no longer selling jobs by the square)

Where is your profit margin if you start work 4, 5, 6 weeks after I do and quit at Thanksgiving but I stayed busy until mid Jan?


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## vtroofing

I answered yes to all those. Am I a low baller or someone who has not have to overcompensate for the big shop, the office with a friendly voice, or the sales guy who is talking to someone about a roof when he should be pointing out aerodynamics to a new car to a prospective car buyer?


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## daviddeschaine

*100% Of Something Is Better 0% Of Nothing*

Most smaller roofing contractors will go out, and sell the roofing job just to have work for the next week or day. Thats fine, But as your business grows so do your expenses. So as long as your gross profit covers your over head, *and you make at least 20% profit for yourself is were 100% of something is 0% of nothing makes sense.*

$10,000 Roofing Sale - $4,000 Materials + $3,000 Labor + $1,000 Disposal & Sales Commission = $8,000 - $10,000 = *$2,000 Gross Company Profit*

Job Specs 26 square of Roofing including tear-off $384 per square

Smaller Owner Installer companies can complete the for job less, but it Can Not be long term, and always look at all the jobs completed that quarter - Take the good with the bad - *But, If you give away 15% - 20% discount you need to complete 40% - 50% more work to collect all the lost profit.*

*Start High & Discount Down - Build Value For Your Discount!*

That's the More Work For Less Profit - Or make it up in numbers theory, But what if you are not getting the numbers in sales calls - *Keep Your Prices Up, and sell the jobs a High As Possible* - It's the only way to keep your roofing business alive.

*Just My Thoughts - What ever works for your size roofing business*!


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## RemStar

vtroofing said:


> Where is your profit margin if you start work 4, 5, 6 weeks after I do and quit at Thanksgiving but I stayed busy until mid Jan?


 
Well if my profit margin is 50% and yours is only 25% that means I only have to do half as many jobs (and deal with half as many headaches) And take responsibility for half as much liability, in order to make the same amount of money as you, who worked twice as hard.


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## Acubis

*55% Gross Profit*

a direct quote from a contractor I consulted with.

After much review and tinkering with prices we've found the only way to roofer our employee's fair and appropriate compensation is by averaging a 50% gross profit although we always strive for 55%.

If you want your employees to drive a company truck, use all your equipment, pay them a real wage $18-50/hr. Medical benefits, dental, 401k, disability. Have 24 hour service, actually pay your workman's compensation and report everything it's hard to survive in a world with a bunch of illegitimate contractors doing jobs that wouldn't even cover overhead.

Our all in labor burden on most jobs is around 62%. That means if I pay in wages 10k it cost the company $16,200.

You can get these prices with an appropriate sales staff and superior installation, warranties etc.....

research it right the first time with www.researchroofing.com


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## daviddeschaine

*I agree 50% - 55% Gross Profit Is The Number!*

*I agree 50% - 55% Gross Profit Is The Number!

Right Get as much as you can from each job* - Typically we are in the 30% gross profit range - When it's busy we get more for the jobs, and when things slow down we some times get less from the jobs - *But we just sold 4 Roofing during our slow season*, and they had great profit margins - small jobs two trailers both for $14,900 neighbors (11 square each full grace ice & water shield) - 2 colonials $10,000 each 25 square (3' of grace ice & water shield).

*The we just got hit with a HUGE SNOW storm today!*



RemStar said:


> Well if my profit margin is 50% and yours is only 25% that means I only have to do half as many jobs (and deal with half as many headaches) And take responsibility for half as much liability, in order to make the same amount of money as you, who worked twice as hard.


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## Grumpy

It was asked what makes someone a low baller. The answer is simple... when you don't charge enought o properly do the job, properly compensate those involved including your workers, suppliers, insurance company, and YOURSELF. 

Overhead and profit aside there are people out here selling jobs below what my cost for labor, burdens, and materials would be. That is the definition of a low baller. There is no way they are legitimitaly operating their business. 

Here is my problem with many many roofing companies, they often do not properly compensate themselves. As we all know many roofing companies are small "family" owned businesses. Most are of the owner-operator setup where the owner is the salesman, maybe foreman, probably also the janitory. He probably has his wife working for him and she might not even be getting a pay check. At the end of the day if you take those 3-5 positions that are shared by the husband and wife and were to hire people to do the work you would have to pay those new employees. So why not pay yourselves?! If you work out of your house you are using a room and real estate costs money, why not pay yourself rent?! If you use your garage for storage you are again using real estate, why not pay yourself rent? 

There are quality of life isues as well. At what point does the business own you?


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## Grumpy

As for 30-60% gross profit. Those are funny numbers. Markup is a funny number. Margin is a funny number. When you talk about markup, what are you marking up? When you talk about gross profit, I think the number should be much higher if using employees vs not need to be so high if using subs. Also gross profit need be higher if you do fewer jobs and lower if you do alot of jobs. I personally prefer to talk about gross profit in terms of dollars per day since at the end of the day I need to achieve a certain gross profit regardless if I do no jobs, 1 job or 100 jobs.

Knowing your business structure is KEY. I know how much it costs me to run my business. I know how much I want to earn. I know what it costs me to put down a roof for labor and materials. I add all those numbers together when figuring my pricing. Sometimes I do some reverse engineering to check what the % of gross profit will be just to do a reality check... but applying a funny number % to an unknown base is just flawed thinking.


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## buildpinnacle

Not to convalude things but Grump started to hit on it. When you tell me you have a gross profit margin of 50% that tells me that if your job costs are 10,000.00 you sell the job for 20,000.00. A markup of 50% would mean that job costing you 10,000 would be sold for 15,000.00. Not understanding the difference is a big difference. Noone in my company is allowed to say the word mark up. They will get fired. We marked it out in all the dictionaries. Profit MARGIN is what we sell around here. A true 30% profit margin will require you to mark your product up approximately 43%. You have to make 30% on the job total.....not just the cost. An easy rule of thumb is to take your job cost and divide it by (1 minus your desired margin) Let's say 40%. 

$10,000 job cost / (1 minus .4) = 10,000/.6 = 16,667.67 sales price. Check the math. You made 6,667.67 gross on a 16,667.67 sale. That is 40% margin. 

We have always cherry picked our jobs. We've made a career out of it. I look at it like playing Texas Holdem. Only play the premium hands. Let everyone else fight over the scraps. That just works for me. I like to make the most money I can with the least amount of work and exposure. I spend alot of time on the boat in the summer. We are 100% subcontract so I don't have a daycare to run. We require every subcontract crew to carry their own GLI and W/C. For those of you that have ever worked in TX or OK that's harder to come by than it sounds. Hardly anyone around here carries insurance. I don't know how they get away with it.


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## daviddeschaine

*Sub-Contracting Is The Best Advice!*

I have used subcontractors for years, and the reason is because when you sell the job you know your fixed labor cost, and you do not have to buy additional trucks, or tools ect... Just check the work out before you pay them, and as time goes on you trust the quality of there work!

That is the Best Kept Secret To High Volume - Low Over Head!



buildpinnacle said:


> Not to convalude things but Grump started to hit on it. When you tell me you have a gross profit margin of 50% that tells me that if your job costs are 10,000.00 you sell the job for 20,000.00. A markup of 50% would mean that job costing you 10,000 would be sold for 15,000.00. Not understanding the difference is a big difference. Noone in my company is allowed to say the word mark up. They will get fired. We marked it out in all the dictionaries. Profit MARGIN is what we sell around here. A true 30% profit margin will require you to mark your product up approximately 43%. You have to make 30% on the job total.....not just the cost. An easy rule of thumb is to take your job cost and divide it by (1 minus your desired margin) Let's say 40%.
> 
> $10,000 job cost / (1 minus .4) = 10,000/.6 = 16,667.67 sales price. Check the math. You made 6,667.67 gross on a 16,667.67 sale. That is 40% margin.
> 
> We have always cherry picked our jobs. We've made a career out of it. I look at it like playing Texas Holdem. Only play the premium hands. Let everyone else fight over the scraps. That just works for me. I like to make the most money I can with the least amount of work and exposure. I spend alot of time on the boat in the summer. We are 100% subcontract so I don't have a daycare to run. We require every subcontract crew to carry their own GLI and W/C. For those of you that have ever worked in TX or OK that's harder to come by than it sounds. Hardly anyone around here carries insurance. I don't know how they get away with it.


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## PTROOFING

We usually end up with a profit of $800.00-$1,000.00 per average 25sq reroof and do 2-3 per week. 1 crew is all employees, other crew is a sub that works only for us for last 6 or so years. We reroof all year long, but do to weather, Jan-March its work when we can. We also have the luck as to have several service contracts for repair work during the winter months.


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## Grumpy

PTROOFING said:


> We usually end up with a profit of $800.00-$1,000.00 per average 25sq reroof and do 2-3 per week. 1 crew is all employees, other crew is a sub that works only for us for last 6 or so years. We reroof all year long, but do to weather, Jan-March its work when we can. We also have the luck as to have several service contracts for repair work during the winter months.


 Is that gross or net? Is that before or after you pay the salesman?


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## chelsea roofing

here in ontario prices are all over the place you have kids coming in to help you three months later they are off on there own thinking they can price it correctly,but all they do is kill it for legit roofers i have seen estimates around toronto go from 300 sq down to150sq i am 2hrs nw of toronto and can price at 250sq 1 layer 4/12 and get it


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## PTROOFING

Grumpy said:


> Is that gross or net? Is that before or after you pay the salesman?


I, the Owner, am the salesman. So that is our profit. Now on larger jobs, we profit more. Say a 50sq. job we may profit $2500 - $3000.


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## vtroofing

Grumpy- Not to blow your skirt up but you do make valid points. 

In this thread I feel a lot has to do with location/ population of both customers and the ratio to roofers and businesses and where you are, if its large enough to hire sales guys/ girls you will need all the statistics of margins and profits, ect. 

I sell every job. I want to see every job, so I can price accordingly to my time involved including all aspects of completing the job. Maybe I could charge additional percentage to compensate my sales, I think I might just be afraid I will turn into a "salesman" and not a Professional Roofing Contractor. I couldn't imagine the chaos that would be created with roofing in my business here in Vermont, sales guys telling HO's what they want to hear, scheduling guys trying to work jobs close by each other, and finally installation crews knowing what the sales guy told the HO to get the sale. Seems like a lot of possibilities for destruction.

Me, I like the lack of all the middle men/ women. I like that I can price a roof and make a profit that I can live with and feel like that reference will never think they were paying for a salesman and office staff as I think its easiest just how I do it without all the headaches. I'm fine completing 30-40 houses in a season without the liability of multiple sub crews. 

We can all complain all day long about the lack of competent competition. Hopefully those that we consider incompetent roofers are as well incompetent marketers and are not really any threat.

I also feel homeowners are not so naive that the Jackleg with a rotted out truck shoveling shingles out of the beds at the dumps are qualified to install a quality roof.

People comment on the many reasons I get the jobs that I do, whether it be honesty, clear understanding of the proper techniques, lack of badmouthing other roofers or how they do things wrong or whatever negativity is brought to the table.


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## RemStar

vtroofing said:


> I think I might just be afraid I will turn into a "salesman" and not a Professional Roofing Contractor. Seems like a lot of possibilities for destruction.


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## vtroofing

Rem- That was not intended to offend anyone. In fact if I was not to be a owner any longer I would be seeking a "Salesman" position for a different Professional Roofing Company so I could continue the only thing I know. 

I don't think anybody wants to be sold, lead through the particulars in easy to understand and accept yes, but not sold.


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## daviddeschaine

*People Want To Be Sold!*

When you get a phone call or lead for a new roof people are ready to buy a new roof - *Yes, people want to be sold, and that means they are ready to purchase* - And they will get upset if you don't sell them a roof. 

*It's simple - Uncover the TRUE Problem, and give the home owner what they WANT!*

Why is it that the owners of the companies always make excuses why not to sell the deal that day - *If you are afraid to make people uncomfortable for a minute while they make a decision, then you should NOT be in sales.*



vtroofing said:


> Rem- That was not intended to offend anyone. In fact if I was not to be a owner any longer I would be seeking a "Salesman" position for a different Professional Roofing Company so I could continue the only thing I know.
> 
> I don't think anybody wants to be sold, lead through the particulars in easy to understand and accept yes, but not sold.


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## vtroofing

With that perspective I think I can see where the term " Buyers Remorse" comes from. 

Surely if a call comes in I more than likely want the job- however making people uncomfortable is not something I would be OK in doing. To each their own "tactics" and you my friend can have those, I will stick to the honest walk through the particulars and make it clear and easy to understand and accept without being shoved. 

What is your close rate again? 

Anybody else make a habit of making customers uncomfortable and sign right here approach? I'm really curious.


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## buildpinnacle

vtroofing said:


> Rem- That was not intended to offend anyone. In fact if I was not to be a owner any longer I would be seeking a "Salesman" position for a different Professional Roofing Company so I could continue the only thing I know.
> 
> I don't think anybody wants to be sold, lead through the particulars in easy to understand and accept yes, but not sold.


Great salesman can do their job without making anyone feel uncomfortable or even looking like a salesman. I've been in the roofing business in some form or fashion since I was 14 years old. I make no bones about it.....we are a sales organization that installs roofs.


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## RemStar

I also commit to being a professional salesman when on "sales" calls. I sell a great product for a fair price. It is in everyones best interest that they accept my proposal (including mine) and I do whatever I can to make that happen. 

If you dont the next guy will, happens all the time. Thats why nice guys finish last.


Remember:

"*Nothing Happens Till You Sell Something"*


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## ultimateconstruction

RemStar said:


> That sounds like a fair price. In my area I charge around 220 but dont include I&W on the eaves, or new roof edge. 220 is a competitive rate in my area but some guys are down around 190, but i dont think they are running the proper insurance & wcb.


i think the prices in the area really depends. especially if it's a risky area where tornadoes, hails or other catastrophic events are just around the area. also, you can't guarantee a standard quality service if the pay is really low. you gotta be kidding me, roofing installation is not just a business you can joke around.

http://ultimateconstruction.bmbnow.com/


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## buildpinnacle

Rem, I will go one further. Nothing happens anywhere on this planet until something is sold. You can call it what you want, but when a transaction takes place where one party is receiving something from another and there is 'consideration' involved......it is defined as a sale. Without it, your trucks, your tools, your men, the men at the factory making the products, the men at the pits producing the raw materials to ship to the men at the factory, the freight drivers.......all the way down the line are waiting for something to be sold so that they have a job. There is no shame in being a good salesman. There are quite a few good ones, few great ones, and only a percent or two of the master closers. It's an art and a respected trade. A salesman should polish his skills just as much as an installer has to polish theirs.


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## vtroofing

Sounds a little like Zig Zigler.


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## daviddeschaine

*Closing I close About 80% Of My actual Roofing Estimates!*

*I go in with the attitude that we have the sale all ready - Don't YOU?*

*Would you like to know how? - Buy MY Sales Training Courses!*



vtroofing said:


> With that perspective I think I can see where the term " Buyers Remorse" comes from.
> 
> Surely if a call comes in I more than likely want the job- however making people uncomfortable is not something I would be OK in doing. To each their own "tactics" and you my friend can have those, I will stick to the honest walk through the particulars and make it clear and easy to understand and accept without being shoved.
> 
> What is your close rate again?
> 
> Anybody else make a habit of making customers uncomfortable and sign right here approach? I'm really curious.


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## buildpinnacle

VT, this construction industry has moved past the beat up truck, overalls, pookie shoes, and showing up with a chaw in your cheek. People are more apt to buy from the individual than the company in our line. We live in world of instant gratification with everything in our lives. Personally, I get the point of the video and the responses Dave is teaching. Those are standard rookie closing techniques, but they are a good starting point to teach someone how to become comfortable asking for the business. After awhile, a seasoned guy will develop his own style. He will never come across as pushy and will never sound rehearsed. The key to closing any deal is covering objections. I think you have the wrong idea of the word 'sales'. I don't believe we are talking about snake oil salesmen here. If the man giving the pitch believes in his product and his company I believe he should be strong in his delivery. There is nothing wrong with that.


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## vtroofing

Its true, we can all learn something from everyone else on here, and Dave has a lot to share and I can appreciate that. He has taken a lot of time and investment to produce those courses and is appreciated. 

In fact I am going to drop a Benjamin on the course and work on my perspective.

I do walk in the job expecting the job. Rarely do I not get it. And yes I will consider dropping my price if I want work in that particular neighborhood- whether its the first one in in the need of many, or the 5th to keep it going. 

I People talk, word of mouth is great, the best- once in the neighborhood I want every roof there, period.


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## buildpinnacle

Dave,

An 80% closing ratio seems a little high to me. If you are closing 8 out of 10, you need to raise your price. Decent salesmen will close around 20%. If you have one that hits 40-50% close ratio at desired pricing points.........have him marry your daughter to keep him around.


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## shinglebroker

Hey roofer can i tell you how much we get shingles for there like 65 in Charlotte NC dam you guys pay alot do you have to pay for delivery and how much are they charging you


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## charlotteroofers

buildpinnacle said:


> Dave,
> 
> An 80% closing ratio seems a little high to me. If you are closing 8 out of 10, you need to raise your price. Decent salesmen will close around 20%. If you have one that hits 40-50% close ratio at desired pricing points.........have him marry your daughter to keep him around.


WOW 80% jeez.....thats like unheard of bro. We close about 40-50% and I think its because we give so much back to help others in need. A Free gutter cleaning or Pressure washing goes a long way and it costs damn near nothing to give to that eldery customer who you know can never do it themselves and their families dont appear to be helping them much. I received 8 jobs from a 76 y/o man who referred me to every eldery friend he knew in the area just last year after a hail storm here in charlotte nc. my repeat business is high as well...this is karma in action


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## charlotteroofers

PTROOFING said:


> Hello all! New to this forum and have a question.
> 
> I have been in buisiness since 1999 and have had steady work all along. No complaints here. We specialize in residential roofing but also have many maintenence accounts for low slope commercial roofs. My question is this:
> 
> On residential roofs, here is what we do:
> Tear off existing roofing.
> Install ice and water guard to eaves, valleys etc.
> New Drip edge
> Titanium UDL-25 synthetic underlayment
> Re-flash chimneys
> Ridge or box ventilation (depending on roof)
> 30YR Timberline shingles
> New vent stack flashings
> Clean up and haul away all job related debris.
> 7YR contractors guarantee.
> 
> What are you charging? We operate in Ohio and western PA. I am charging $255.00 per sq. for a walkable roof ( up to a 8/12 pitch ) wether its a 1 or 2 layer tear off. I land 80% of my quotes, but some customers call back and tell me I'm $1,000 - $2,0000 higher???
> 
> A typical 25sq ranch tear off I'm selling for $6,375.00 plus options such as power fans or any wood replacement. My cost for GAF/ELK 30yr is $75.00.


Sounds like youre doing the right thing by your customers. I am in Charlotte Nc and own a Roofing and Remodeling company here. I install similar products except Certainteed is my shingle of choice simply because of Rep coverage in the area and the fact that any Manufacture offering a special contractor program like Shingle Master Crew shouldnt charge a fee to be in their program it should be based on knowledge.


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## jumper

apehangeralfy said:


> $13 per ton here.
> 
> I'm mid 2's with full peel-n-stick and 30 yr Landmarks, 2-6/12 box.... add any cut and I go up... all wood-work is extra $50 by the sheet or cost plus $50 an hour


I don't touch wood for less then $.80 a SF. That is in Iowa figure cost of material and labor. Takes time to put it in. Just my opinion though.


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## howeneil1

*The Top Dog Gets The Top Price*

I hear what you are saying about pricing and how some companies are able to charge more for the same roofing service.

In my opinion, the reason for that is they are either the authority in their market, or they have a really good sales presentation.

Becoming the authority in the market takes some time to work on websites and ranking, but once you are there and at the top of the search engines, people will be calling you and accepting your price as they view your authority in the number ONE position of Google to mean you are their best and safest bet.

Once you have that ranking, you will be able to raise your prices and still close the same or more sales.

It is worth the investment and time to spend on your marketing. It makes the closing process a lot easier when your customer thinks you are the authority. They will accept your word and your price as being the best solution to their roofing problem.


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## TFaulkner

This is a great thread! I'm going to have to rethink some of my pricing structures. For the last few years I've been doing everything myself, just feeding off referrals. 

This year I'm going to start growing my business so I have to change how I see things a bit. Thanks for all the great advice guys!


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## Grumpy

TFaulkner said:


> This is a great thread! I'm going to have to rethink some of my pricing structures. For the last few years I've been doing everything myself, just feeding off referrals.
> 
> This year I'm going to start growing my business so I have to change how I see things a bit. Thanks for all the great advice guys!


 In private school growing up they told me a story of a man who was hungry. They told me "give a man a fish and he eats for a day, but teach him how to fisha nd he eats for life." 

Operating a real BUSINESS is no different. If you do all the work you have a job. If you have people doing the work for you, you have a business. What's the difference you may be thinking?

If you are sick, you don't earn. If you take vacation, you don't earn. If you have to take time off for any reason, you don't earn. If you have a salesman selling and you take a day off, you still earn. If you do the sales and have work for the crew and you take a day off, you still earn. There is more to it than that; but it is my personal opinion that most owner-operator types would be better off working for someone else. A true business is the one that can function without the constant interaction of the owner.


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## TFaulkner

Exactly Grumpy, I've basically owned a job for the last few years, now it's time for me to build a business. I've been reading the Emyth and some Kiyosaki...it's good stuff, definitely have a lot of work to do.


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## Grumpy

Many years ago. Ed the Roofer called me a student of Emyth. I said Fuck emyth I don't need to read a book about the internet. He explained what it was, a book about systemitizing and franchisng your business. I bought the audio book and then 2 other emyth audio books.

I think you should not be issued a business license if you haven't read at least one volume of Emyth. 

If I ever met Michael Gerber I would hug him. I think other than the fact that he seems much more calm of a fellow than myself, he and I are cut from the same cloth. In general I can not think of one thing off the top of my head where I would disagree with him. 

Kiyosaki, not so much. I have some of his stuff, but usually don't listen more than once. Emyth I have listened repeatedly. It's good in the winter, and truth be told what brought me back into spirits this winter. I was ready to give up the business last year. I lost my vision, Emyth gave it back to me. 

But I have to reinforce the fact that I am not Michael Gerber's parrot. I have been saying the same as him for longer than I knew who he or his book was.


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## TFaulkner

I totally agree about the Emyth, it is what has inspired me to grow my business beyond just a 1 man "job." Going to pick up the emyth contractor today, any idea if it comes in audio book format too?

What I like about Kiyosaki is his big picture mindset. That our businesses should serve a bigger purpose than to just keep us busy. He also helped me change my mindset a bit to understand that by growing a bigger company I am actually being more generous by serving more people, and by staying small it's pretty much all about me.


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## Grumpy

My business is an investment. I am a share holder. I expect profit. I expect to walk away from my business one day and still own it but not work in it. It is possible, and something hundreds of thousands of corporations across the world have done. 

And when the time comes I will sell my stock in the company. 


yes looking at the big picture is very important. Sometimes we get caught up in the day to day and hard to see the end goal. That's part of the reason I like roofing. it is seasonal and allows me time off to recharge, think, and sharpen my knife.

I was in a real funk last year. I was border line depressed for the last two years. But then I just by chance re-read some posts I had made at contractor talk when I was just starting my business and I remembered again what my vision was. That was enough to snap me out of it.


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## johnny roofer

I'm up in Canada. We are $200/sq for anything walkable. 30lb at eaves and valleys, 15 lb over the rest of the roof deck, no roof edge. I am always booked at least 2 months running 8 shinglers at approx. 50 - 70sq per day in re-roofs. Where I live I am higher than most. A sq of Timberline costs me about $60. Or IKO Cambridge for $52.50.


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## NLshinglerBC

RemStar said:


> Well if my profit margin is 50% and yours is only 25% that means I only have to do half as many jobs (and deal with half as many headaches) And take responsibility for half as much liability, in order to make the same amount of money as you, who worked twice as hard.





most realest thing ever


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## daviddeschaine

*Glad To Hear That Grumpy !!!*

Glad To Hear That Grumpy !!!

You give a lot to this forum 



Grumpy said:


> My business is an investment. I am a share holder. I expect profit. I expect to walk away from my business one day and still own it but not work in it. It is possible, and something hundreds of thousands of corporations across the world have done.
> 
> And when the time comes I will sell my stock in the company.
> 
> 
> yes looking at the big picture is very important. Sometimes we get caught up in the day to day and hard to see the end goal. That's part of the reason I like roofing. it is seasonal and allows me time off to recharge, think, and sharpen my knife.
> 
> I was in a real funk last year. I was border line depressed for the last two years. But then I just by chance re-read some posts I had made at contractor talk when I was just starting my business and I remembered again what my vision was. That was enough to snap me out of it.


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## a.r.c.

It all boils down to your salesmanship! Can I get a "whoa bundy" for hitting that one on the head? Build more value in your service than the next man. Break down every material used and explain why it will benefit your customer. Educate them. Get crazy with it! Talk about why you replace the drip edge. Tell them how its made, where its made, what it is made of, and why you choose it over another drip edge manufacturer. Know your product! Build that value and get that money. If we cant make any money at it, their is no point in doing it.


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## morrissey roofing

$400 to $600 a square. Up and over 1 layer maybe $350. Anoput $120 a square materials< $86 a ton for dump, comp licensed overhead. Certanteed 4 star warranty roofs only.


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## Soldierboy

Here is a very simple math equation for those starting out.

Know your full Labor burden:
Know your full Material Costs:
Know what your paying your salesman: 10% of Materials and Labor is roughly 6% of the total Job.

Know your Budget and add in what profit you want to make that year.

Once all of that is done you can then figure out your GPM%

Say you sell 1 million in a year your overhead is $200,000.00 
Your salary should be in your overhead.
Know you want to make 100,000 to grow your business.
You simply multiply by 1.43. This will give you the 30% that you need to run your business and make the profit that you want.
Businesses that run off of Per Square pricing will never make it to be real businesses. Maybe you will make good money for a few years but if you really want to grow and retire you will start using formulas that have been proven to work for successful businesses.
Just my two cents as a new guy to this forum.


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## Interloc

johnny roofer said:


> I'm up in Canada. We are $200/sq for anything walkable. 30lb at eaves and valleys, 15 lb over the rest of the roof deck, no roof edge. I am always booked at least 2 months running 8 shinglers at approx. 50 - 70sq per day in re-roofs. Where I live I am higher than most. A sq of Timberline costs me about $60. Or IKO Cambridge for $52.50.


 No wonder roofin prices suck its because of this mentality :wallbash:..you should learn how to bid properly before startin a business..whats this based on?..a few more bucks an hr then when you worked for someone?...:thumbdown: of course your booked..your running a charity outfit..not a business...unreal..


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## johnny roofer

Up in Canada we are in the $190 - $210 range, no Ice and Water, no Roof Edge. Timberline shingles.


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## Interloc

i'm up here as well...and that my friend is the rd to bankruptcy..around here at those prices...fuk i was getting prices like that in the eightys...


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## vtroofing

Everything counts and that is what is the most common mistake.


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## Interloc

Roofing used to be one of the HIGHER paying jobs to get...not now..:no: i agree totaly with you VT, EVERYTHING counts which alot just dont seem to grasp, so they go in cheap and ruin it for everybody..stupid.


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## johnny roofer

Depends on how you look it at or what profit margins you think are appropriate for your area. Take a job we did last Friday:
33sq at $190/sq = $6270 (1 layer 4/12 re-roof with Timberline shingles)
My total man hrs were 40 (5 guys @ 8hrs) @ $25/hr incl. remittance, WCB and all other BS we are required to pay =$1000
Materials = $2450 before tax
My dump charges were $200.00
And say incidentals are $100.00 fuel, bottled water, etc.
I'm looking at a net of $2520. 
We do two of these a day. I'm a happy man.
Maybe I'm ignorant but I don't see this as a 'road to bankruptcy'.
Your input would be appreciated if I am missing something.
Thanks.


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## Interloc

no ins.?
no license?
no advertising?
time it takes to do estimates
you say a sq costs you 60 is that just shingles? so how about all the other neccesitys?
up keep on vehicles,tools etcetc.
or are you a chuck in a truck operation?
5 guys @ 25/hr is MORE then 1000 bucks with all the BS..


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## johnny roofer

If it cost you more than $5k a day for insurance and advertising I think you may be paying to much.
My insurance including flat, sloped, and vehicles works out to under $40/day, we have 8 fully logoed vehicles (6 classifies as fleet insurance, which is a big savings), our billboards, lawn signs, website upkeep, shirts, hoodies, jackets, etc. is works out to about $40/day. I'm sorry if 
I didn't factor in the time to drive to do the quote, I didn't realize how specific you were being.
I never said I payed $60/sq for shingles. Regardless, I buy my felt by the B-Train annually, along with our vents, we buy our coils and staples by the pallet (most of which is all paid for through our annual rebate). Again, sorry about specific on the labour. Out of those 5 employees, one is on salary and the others range from $12.50 to $22.00, depending on experience. So, in fact it works out to less than $25/hr/guy.
I'm not sure what you mean by chuck in truck. Sorry.
I got competitors that quote in the $150s for re-roofs. I'm not the cheapest. 
A lot has changed since the 80s, business is constantly evolving, and I intend to stay ahead of that curve. I may be wrong, but I feel like things are going very well.
So that figure should have been $2440.00.
Thanks for the feedback.
Cheers.


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## Grumpy

Interloc said:


> Roofing used to be one of the HIGHER paying jobs to get...not now..:no: i agree totaly with you VT, EVERYTHING counts which alot just dont seem to grasp, so they go in cheap and ruin it for everybody..stupid.


Yup it doesn't make sense does it? It's one of the harder more dangerous jobs, but one of the lower paying jobs. Why or how does that make sense? What does that say of the cummulative intelligence of the roofing community?


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## Grumpy

johnny roofer said:


> If it cost you more than $5k a day for insurance and advertising I think you may be paying to much.
> My insurance including flat, sloped, and vehicles works out to under $40/day, we have 8 fully logoed vehicles (6 classifies as fleet insurance, which is a big savings), our billboards, lawn signs, website upkeep, shirts, hoodies, jackets, etc. is works out to about $40/day. I'm sorry if
> I didn't factor in the time to drive to do the quote, I didn't realize how specific you were being.
> I never said I payed $60/sq for shingles. Regardless, I buy my felt by the B-Train annually, along with our vents, we buy our coils and staples by the pallet (most of which is all paid for through our annual rebate). Again, sorry about specific on the labour. Out of those 5 employees, one is on salary and the others range from $12.50 to $22.00, depending on experience. So, in fact it works out to less than $25/hr/guy.
> I'm not sure what you mean by chuck in truck. Sorry.
> I got competitors that quote in the $150s for re-roofs. I'm not the cheapest.
> A lot has changed since the 80s, business is constantly evolving, and I intend to stay ahead of that curve. I may be wrong, but I feel like things are going very well.
> So that figure should have been $2440.00.
> Thanks for the feedback.
> Cheers.


 In Illinois, Workers Comp if you are paying the roofing rate, will cost you on average $10,000 per year per roofer. A 5 man crew, you do the math. $40 a day? Wow, Canada is the promised land!?! 

As for a workers hourly rate, a skilled roofer been doing it for a few years and shows up on time and sober is worth more than $25 an hour here. On top of that what about vacation days, sick days, Holiday pay, retirement, health insurance etc? Sure nobody really pays for that stuff in the roofing industry, but you should pay enough that your worker can go out and get it on his own. $15 an hour and, here, all you would get is a drug addicted American or an illegal immigrant. 


As for charing for travel, why would you not? As for charging for estimates, why would you not? Nothing is free. It all costs someone money, and that someone is the boss. If I am paying for something, I am charging for it! Time is not free, mine nor anyones.


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## johnny roofer

I should stop talking. My compo rate is 11%. So a $15/hr guy costs me $16.65/hr. I paid almost $40k in compo last year. My farthest travel time is 40min. Most jobs are within 5-15min.
I'm not city living here. 
YES, I wish prices were higher I'm not disagreeing. But I have guys that are looking for a steady paycheck and I can do that. I'm NOT the lowest, I have just managed to work with what I have to. If I could charge $350/sq trust me I would. I can't.
Sorry if this upsets you all.


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## Grumpy

Let's address why you think you can't charge more.

I certainly will admit there are geographical variances. So I can better understand, is $11 a for example or is that what a skilled roofer earns in your area? Seems kinda low to me even with local variances, which is why I am asking for clarification.

But why do you think you can't charge more? Are there others in your area charging more? Where would you stand amongst your competitors on price. Because if others are charging more, you can too. You just have to learn what they are doing to achieve it. Do you know what your competitors are charging? Do you ask your customers to see the comeptitors proposals? 

Don't take their word for it when they tell you that you are the most expensive if they really cared about who was the most expensive and you were the most expensive they wouldn't be beating you up on price. I found that when I was cheap people would try to beat me up on my price. As I raised my prices I found they didn't beat me up so much anymore. It was the people who bought cheap tryign to cheapen me up even more. People who buy quality don't care about the price (within reason).

Just seeing if there is anything we can do to help you break that mentality that you aren't worth more or that you can't charge more.


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## Interloc

johnny roofer said:


> So a $15/hr guy costs me $16.65/hr. .


 still more..txs which some comes out of your pocket. but seriously..what kinda guy you get for 15/hr? i mean min wage is like 10-11/hr?


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## Grumpy

A $20 an hour man costs me $32 in insurance and taxes. That doesn't count vehicular overhead, equipment, office, markup or profit.


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## Interloc

Grumpy said:


> That doesn't count vehicular overhead, equipment, office, *markup or profit*.


 i think most overlook this part or somehow figure they dont need it..!?! :blink: ..inpaticular the underlined ones!!


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