# TPO or metal?



## Tes

I have an apartment building with a flat roof and leaks. The debate is wether to install a new tpo or install wood trusses than put 26 g locked seam concealed fastener roof. The tpo will cost 45k and the metal will cost 90k. Will I actually get 50 years out of a metal? Just looking for some unbiased opinions. I'm in the pacific nw.


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## O'Donnell Roofing & Solar

I am not a fan of retrofitting trusses over an existing roof.
Usually a weight or wind uplift problem.
With the metal you may need gutters, thats just another maintenance item. 
The old roof may need to be removed just to avoid condensation between the two roof systems.

A TPO roof installed properly should last 25 years.


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## Pie in the Sky

Agreed on the Metal. Improper design (no design) can lead to roof collapse in a snow area. 

I personally would shoot for an EPDM or PVC. They will last over 25 years and be less maintenance intensive. TPO isn’t my preference but that is my opinion (based on experience and limited studies). It is an option though.


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## Grumpy

Here is the deal, if you retrofit to metal, you will need an engineer. This will cost thousands of dollars. You will need permit approval, could cost hundreds and take months to get. You will need a carpenter, this will cost thousands of dollar. You will need a roofer, this will also cost thousands of dollars.


OR


You can hire a really skilled roofer with lots of experience in low slope membranes who will also cost thousands of dollars, but will cost less than the engineer and the carpenter and won't require special approval. A good roofer is cheaper than a bad roofer when you look at the overall life cycle of the roof. I can install a PVC or EPDM roof to a 30 year specification and will gladly stand behind the workmanship for 10 years. TPO has specifications up to 30 years as well, but 20 is more realistic and I'll gladly stand behind my workmanship for 6 years on tpo. 

A flat roof when properly installed AND maintained won't leak. The problem is they seldom ever seem to be installed proper or ever maintained. No roof is maintenance free. Twice a year someone should visually inspect the roof, and remove any debris. 

If you are a commercial or multi-family property look into manufacturer No DOllar Limit warranties. It's a great insurance policy against leakage.

Learn more about your flat roofing options and scheduled roof maintainence.


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## johnny

Tes said:


> I have an apartment building with a flat roof and leaks. The debate is wether to install a new tpo or install wood trusses than put 26 g locked seam concealed fastener roof. The tpo will cost 45k and the metal will cost 90k. Will I actually get 50 years out of a metal? Just looking for some unbiased opinions. I'm in the pacific nw.


TPO all the way. http://jhurst.blogspot.com


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## Tes

Thanks for the input, I am an engineer so those design fees are not of a concern. I'm designing the roof and preparing all the docs, and I've done calculations to assure the building can handle the new load. With this info would you guys still recommend aticking with a flat roof? Thanks


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## Grumpy

Why not? 

What is the benefit of converting it to a s loped roof? What is your motivation in going to the extra expense? If a flat roof will last virtually as long as a metal roof when properly installed, why bother with the extra expense?


In my experience most of the time people want to convert a flat to a sloped, they do so because they are plain tired of replacing the roof every 10-12 years. Well... Most people do not realize that they are buying 10-15 year rated roofing systems in most cases, then get frustrated when it lasts as long as intended. When for a slightly larger investment they can get a 20 year roofing system. 

A potential customer once said to me "We put a man on the moon but we can't make a roof last logner than 10 years!" He said this to me after explaining how this will be the "3rd time he has to replace the roof". However all he was doing was cheap incomplete lay overs. I responded to him "Remember that putting a man on the moon costs billions of dollars. We can make your roof last 20 years, but you're not willing to pay for it." He never called me back, I wonder why.


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## Pie in the Sky

Also you will have to manage the snow coming off a metal roof.

D

Im with Grump, I'd go membrane.


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## Tes

Reasons: I hear metal will last 40-50 years, lower maintenance - freezind drain lines have caused damage and heat tape is not too dependable, with a top I can't see a problem tell damage is already done, with a metal above I can inspect the underside of the plywood as often as I want, i plan on installing snow cleats, re sell value is greater, there is a stigma out there that flat roofs collapse and leak. The main question is will a 26 g locked rib roof actually last 50 years?


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## Grumpy

Flat locked soldered seamed 20 oz copper will last 100 years. 

Not really a metal expert. The question is will it last 50 years? Well I don't know. Will an asphalt shingle last a lifetime? They say it will. I think we know a shingle roof won't last 50 years... But will metal? 


Personally I doubt it'll last 50 years. Why? Because it's basically painted galvanized steel. Assuming the paint is Kynar, that's a 25 year paint. So you'll need to recoat it. However moisture will get to the exposed edges and seams and screw holes etc, it'll eventually rust. Maybe a .032 Aluminum, but I don't have that much faith in steel. 

I'll just say I have never seen a steel roof 50 years old.


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## Pie in the Sky

I've been on hundreds of metal roofs. Some older than 50 where the finish looked surprisingly good. The hardest part about metal roofs is there design. What is your climate? Sounds like its cold if you have drain lines freezing. Metal will work. Snow clips will help. If you want it to look good for 50 years get White Kynar coated, it will look the best the longest. I wouldn’t go lighter that 24GA and I would go with a concealed cleat system NOT an exposed fastener system. You will have new issues I can guarantee. You may want to consider ventilating that space. You are going to have Ice damming. 

My Experience has told me that flat roofs are the way to go. Your interior drains should not be freezing. Ever. Maybe where they exit the building through a Lambs tongue? I guess I would need to know more and see some photos, but I am a consultant who makes a living off recommendations and with the tiny bit of information you have given me, I would stick with a Flat roof. Your metal roof is just going to bring all new problems. No roof is maintenance free. Well, almost no roof. 

Also if you want to get a nickels worth of free advice, go take 20 photos post them somewhere we can see them closely, and explain the history of the roof including problems you have had EG freezing pipes and what not. YOur other option is to hire a good roof consultant. I'd be glad to be your consultant BUT I doubt you want to pay me to come out there, wherever there is... I would not mind reviewing the project through photos and giving you some free advise but you really need a consultant if you get serious about switching to metal.


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## 1985gt

Tes said:


> Reasons: I hear metal will last 40-50 years, lower maintenance - freezind drain lines have caused damage and heat tape is not too dependable, with a top I can't see a problem tell damage is already done, with a metal above I can inspect the underside of the plywood as often as I want, i plan on installing snow cleats, re sell value is greater, there is a stigma out there that flat roofs collapse and leak. The main question is will a 26 g locked rib roof actually last 50 years?



First of I would spend the money on a good 1/4" per foot taper ISO system and a good membrane. If your shooting for the stars go PVC or 90 Mil EPDM or 80 mil TPO. 30 year NDL warranty on the latter of the two. 

Roof Drains: Where and why are they freezing? They shouldn't be. Address this issue asap. Buy a good heat tape. Again another area you get what you pay for, and its not at the local HD or Menards. Again most cases you shouldn't need heat tape.

Maintenance: All roofs need some type of maintenance at some point. Add this in to your roof budget. Many contractors offer a annual service and maintenance contract. If they don't find one that does. 


Stigma: I agree with this, other people rarely look at the fact all roofs at some point have problems, and its not our fault that they didn't pony up money for a quality roof system. 




> The main question is will a 26 g locked rib roof actually last 50 years?


No I wouldn't us 26 ga and I wouldn't use a panel thats self locking. Only a mechanically seamed panel will even come close to lasting that long. I don't think that you can expect 50 years out of any roof with out touching it. I'm not downgrading the self locking panels, I think they are great have installed a lot of them my self. A mechanically seamed panel is going to take more time for the installer and he would have to have a seamer. both cost money, money that will be passed on to you.


I'm interested in seeing some pictures my self. What area are you in? I'm sure we could help you a little bit. A little bit of our free advise will go along way. Or you could alway pay one of us to do it.


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## Grumpy

1985gt said:


> Stigma: I agree with this, other people rarely look at the fact all roofs at some point have problems, and its not our fault that they didn't pony up money for a quality roof system.


:thumbup: :thumbup:


1985gt said:


> Or you could alway pay one of us to do it.


Me have hammer, will travel.


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## Pie in the Sky

The only time I have seen roof drains Freeze solid is when they come out at grade through a Lambs Tongue. ANd this was on the Highline in Montana ond only on the north side of the building. I wish I had a Photo. I didnt believe it till I saw it. 

From then On if I did the design for new construction, If we had a similar construction We at least designed the electrical to be run for the heat tape, even if they didnt install the tape. THen you knew it could be. The Funny thing about heat tape is the all mighty question... Where do you stop it? Theres gonna be a heck of a pile of Ice somewhere...


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## Pie in the Sky

Grumpy said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup:
> Me have hammer, will travel.


:laughing:


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## red_cedar

Metal is the way to go.
26 gauge will last a long time. 50 + years with the original finish. Can be recoated to maintain. For the best results, have no standing water. Dont go with cheep details, like rubber boots for penetrations.

If you do it by the numbers, metal and your roof system will be less costly in the long run.

For example, how much will the roof cost in 25 years using current flat roof materials. That's just one factor to consider.

If it was us quoting the job, we would take the whole thing, no other trade subcontractors..


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## O'Donnell Roofing & Solar

TPO-EPDM etc, $45,000.00 / 25 years = $1,800.00 per year
Kynar painted steel $90,000.00 / 50 years =$1,800.00 per year

Or go with the TPO & bank the other 45k in an annuity.
after 25 years @ compounded 3% it will be worth, $94,220.01

Just in time for the next roof, = 50 years of coverage for the same money,


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## Billy Luttrell

Grumpy said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup:
> Me have hammer, will travel.




Need a halper? We can tie a laddervator to my el camino, you can pay me in beer!

Might need to get a draw, lost my bull trowel.


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## red_cedar

O'Donnell Roofing & Solar said:


> TPO-EPDM etc, $45,000.00 / 25 years = $1,800.00 per year
> Kynar painted steel $90,000.00 / 50 years =$1,800.00 per year
> 
> Or go with the TPO & bank the other 45k in an annuity.
> after 25 years @ compounded 3% it will be worth, $94,220.01
> 
> Just in time for the next roof, = 50 years of coverage for the same money,


Metal salesman part of me came out, but in reality it really doesn't matter what they do, so long as one gets the job.


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## 1985gt

Pie in the Sky said:


> The only time I have seen roof drains Freeze solid is when they come out at grade through a Lambs Tongue. ANd this was on the Highline in Montana ond only on the north side of the building. I wish I had a Photo. I didnt believe it till I saw it.
> 
> From then On if I did the design for new construction, If we had a similar construction We at least designed the electrical to be run for the heat tape, even if they didnt install the tape. THen you knew it could be. The Funny thing about heat tape is the all mighty question... Where do you stop it? Theres gonna be a heck of a pile of Ice somewhere...


Yeah drains shouldn't freeze but like you said they can coming out of a lambs tongue. We generally only install the heat tape on scuppers or in gutters. We have done a few on drains one was on a high end new construction basically drop the heat tape down the drain pipe to about 2-3 Inches from the end of the lambs tongue, wrap several loops around the drain and plug it in. The ice has to be some where, rather it be on the roof then backing up the drain.


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## LCG

*TPO/Metal?*

Tes,

*800-426-1626.* 
*IB Roof Systems, 2877 Chad Drive, Eugene OR 97408*

We do both. Extensively. Comparing TPO to Metal is not comparing apples to apples and I know you are aware of this. I agree with most on this thread. We finished a low slope gymnasium in central Wyoming in december. These guys had so many problems with this roof they were ready to hire engineers and have this massive roof trussed. 

We installed an IB tapered system. Tapered meaning we added pitch to the roof. IB is the sinlge ply roofing system we installed. Do not go with a TPO system unless its a 90mil. The only reason we hold a TPO line is to chase low end government specs. If you are willing to pay someone 90k for metal you really should contact IB Roof Systems and have an IB certified contractor come out and look at your project. 

IB, Fibertite, and Sarnafil are the best flat systems on the planet. Period. Ok, at least in North America. All of these companies use certified, TRAINED installers. IB is by far the easiest to deal with as our company has installed 2 out of the 3 above mentioned products and held meetings with the other. IB offers a lifetime residential warranty but you can purchase a warranty called an NDL warranty if you want. You'll have to talk to IB about the warranties. My customers usually choose the warranty plus option. It covers defective materials and the labor to install new material if needed. 

BTW. IB has never had a recall on 33+yrs and their product HAS NOT changed once in that time. Their 50mil will hit 25yrs easy in your climate although I recommend the 60 mil as I am an ultra cautious roofer.

TPO and EPDM lines are often sold over the counter and won't offer a warranty to someone who is not certified. As GT1985 said. If you decide TPO is the way to go only use a 90mil. If you REALLY want to shoot for stars IB makes an 80mil. I'll put that up to metal anyday. Plus IB has a lot of color options to choose from. Honestly the solution is there and at the very least you have found a pretty honest group of contractors here. Most of them pointing to saving your money and going with a QUALITY flat roof.

Belive it or not i'm not an IB sales rep. Just a good honest roofer.

If your going to settle. Don't settle on a poor roofing comapny.


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## 1985gt

FYI TPO goes up to 80 mil that I'm aware of, EPDM 90. Also drop drop anything heavy on a PVC when its cold out. A customer told us they have a 5 year old Sarnafil roof that spider web cracked after someone dropped an extension cord from 15'. If we get to go over to that building I will get pics. I'm sure its been repaired by now. So much for a 50 year warranty eh?

I'm not down grading or belittling any product (well except for maybe Duro last and spray foam completely different topic) but all roofing materials have their faults.


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## LCG

*FYI TPO goes up to 80 mil that I'm aware of, EPDM 90. Also drop drop anything heavy o*

I am very supprised to hear that and I would love to see a picture. I have never installed Sarna but hold it in high regard. Maybe I miss quoted but I believe Carisle makes a 90mil TPO. We are certified to install Carisle but I may be mistaken on the mil as we rarely install it. We basically picked up the line here recently because we have been getting calls from out of staters building new construction with TPO spec'd for it's cost efficency and there seems to be no room for negotiation as every general is bidding to win the job while sacrificing the roof. Granted their warranty is well past by the time the roof fails. Also we did a bid on a government project that was spec'd 60 milPVC and 90mil TPO last year and for some God awfull reason restraunts are being speced TPO. The warranty is gone as soon as the exhaust fan turns on. So much for a warranty at all!

Us roofers have our fav's. I do love PVC.


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## Grumpy

LCG said:


> Belive it or not i'm not an IB sales rep. Just a good honest roofer.
> 
> If your going to settle. Don't settle on a poor roofing comapny.


 One thing I will tell you for SURE, every IB installer I have met is a hard core IB cheer leader LOL. 

I don't buy from IB for logistical reasons. I don't have the facilities or equipment to buy direct.


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## Grumpy

LCG said:


> Us roofers have our fav's. I do love PVC.


 I do like PVC, but I don't mind TPO. PVC is a hrd sell with the averager buyer. Think about it for a second... They look the same. They install the same. The warranties are the same. In the eyes of most roofing buyers, they are the same thing! (I don't think they are the same, for the record.)

You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink, some people want TPO. I can't afford to walk away from too many jobs, so if the customer wants TPO, I give them TPO. Basically on most bids I provide a 15 year TPO spec and a 20 year PVC spec as an optional upgrade. About 25% of my customers opt for the upgrade. 

In a situation where the membrane is the least of the cost, for example a 16 story balcony project I recent posted about, I just straight bid PVC. The $1,000 material price difference shouldn't make or break a job like that where the crane time will cost nearly as much as the material.


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## 1985gt

LCG said:


> I am very supprised to hear that and I would love to see a picture. I have never installed Sarna but hold it in high regard. Maybe I miss quoted but I believe Carisle makes a 90mil TPO. We are certified to install Carisle but I may be mistaken on the mil as we rarely install it. We basically picked up the line here recently because we have been getting calls from out of staters building new construction with TPO spec'd for it's cost efficency and there seems to be no room for negotiation as every general is bidding to win the job while sacrificing the roof. Granted their warranty is well past by the time the roof fails. Also we did a bid on a government project that was spec'd 60 milPVC and 90mil TPO last year and for some God awfull reason restraunts are being speced TPO. The warranty is gone as soon as the exhaust fan turns on. So much for a warranty at all!
> 
> Us roofers have our fav's. I do love PVC.


We install a lot of GAF and Versico. Being Carlise is owned by Versico I asumed they only have the 80 mil. So I checked carlise 's web site and only found the 80 mil. Interesting enough Versico offers 12' rolls while carlise only has 10' wide. Gaf is also 10' max. 

Maybe the thicker mil TPO your thinking of is fleece back? Most of those are 100+ though. 

As for the sarafil, I've heard great things about them and IB. We have Versico for PVC and most architects will allow it in place of sarafil. I don't know if I will ever get to visit this roof since its still under warranty but if I do I'll snap some pics.

As far as the TPO/PVC debate, I don't have a whole lot of experience with PVC, its a tough sale. I've done a couple on various restaurants and honestly found it no real different then a TPO install. Most everything we do is fully adhered anyway. Other then that I only can go by what others have said and it seems to be a good product. We have had good luck with TPO but none of our installs are over 12 years old. We do have to redo one that sheet failed at the seems that was around 8 years old or so. I won't say who the manufacture is but they have been not to great to deal with on it. They left the customer hanging for the last 2 or 3 months with caulking only covering up the failed sheet.


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## LCG

Cheerleading? Absolutely. I am a hardcore PVC guy no doubt. But I will admit that the entirety of my market cannot afford PVC. I usually have to do some pretty extensive breakdowns for them to see the light.

Fortuanately Wyoming is a heavy PVC market where Utah was mostly TPO. I guess when we entered into the flat market it seemed that PVC was the best so we were trained and have installed PVC since. The guy to whom I owe my entire roofing company was a TPO guy. He used to curse me all the time. He didn't like the welding and general installation of PVC but as it is my company I chose what I chose and he proceeded to school me on the installation. 

It would be an interesting thread to see who these roofers owe their careers to. I owe mine to a guy named David Miller from the Uintah Basin, Utah. RIP Dave. 

As for the Metal vs TPO debate. Tes, just get a QUALIFIED reputable installer. Don't invest your money with a company that is using your roof as training grounds for another project. Whatever the product is. When installed correctly the system will hold up as advertised. Most of us roofers are pretty stubborn and believe heavily in the way we do things. 

Doing 400 roofs the wrong way will never make it right. Choose the right contractor with lots of refrences and you will be fine.


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## 1985gt

Hard headed is a understatement


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## Pie in the Sky

1985gt said:


> FYI TPO goes up to 80 mil that I'm aware of, EPDM 90. Also drop drop anything heavy on a PVC when its cold out. A customer told us they have a 5 year old Sarnafil roof that spider web cracked after someone dropped an extension cord from 15'. If we get to go over to that building I will get pics. I'm sure its been repaired by now. So much for a 50 year warranty eh?


I have to Call BS on this and If it is true I need to hear more about it to be informed, PM me if you want. I’ve seen hundreds of Sarnafil systems and they are the least brittle of the PVC's I am familier with. What you are describing was maybe a different PVC like 20 or 25 years ago. I never even heard of a DuroLast shattering... To me a TPO would be much more prone to this because of its chemical makeup (lack of plasticizers) and its rigidity. You can stand a 10 foot 80 mil TPO sheet on end if its cool enough.


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## 1985gt

Pie in the Sky said:


> I have to Call BS on this and If it is true I need to hear more about it to be informed, PM me if you want. I’ve seen hundreds of Sarnafil systems and they are the least brittle of the PVC's I am familier with. What you are describing was maybe a different PVC like 20 or 25 years ago. I never even heard of a DuroLast shattering... To me a TPO would be much more prone to this because of its chemical makeup (lack of plasticizers) and its rigidity. You can stand a 10 foot 80 mil TPO sheet on end if its cool enough.


I was a bit surprised my self. I have not seen it, but I did find it odd anything after 5 years would shatter. As far as Duro Last shattering, I've seen it, repaired it and hear stories of others seeing the same thing. I'm not sure if we still have the samples we cut out around or not. 

I don't really see an extension cord being dropped from any height and cracking a roof.


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## LCG

*TPO/Metal?*

Now we are wandering into some interesting waters. 

I have seen DuroLast pulverised by hail. I repaired a Duro roof late last year that had pea size hail damage. The roof was a 40mil over fanfold, over gravel. The roof was 16 years old and had complete failure. The woman could not afford a new roof so I being a (and I hate to admit this) DuroLast installer for two years had enough material to complete the repairs. 

Durolast is becoming my new best friend due to premature roof failure. My main compitition is big on Duro. Good for him. It was his installation we fixed.

I gave her a bid for IB! 

As far as Sarna goes...

The Standing seam look alike. It has major issues in the heavy snow climates. One of my associates in the Vail/aspen area has seen the vinyl ribs ripped off in winter months. More than once! As far as the feild membrane goes I really can't say.

Ib and Sarna to my belief are the only companies with roofs that are 34+years old and still in service today. At least as far as PVC goes. I'm sure I will be stoned for that comment!

I do like Sarna but they are a thorn in my side at this point. I am beginning to despise the name. They have spent allot of money on Architects in Wyoming. Sarna has much deeper pockets than me. Lets just say we are working other angles.


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## Pie in the Sky

GT- I saw a shattered Trocal roof just a few years ago. it was winter COLD Negative 30 with frost. Maintenance guy stepped out of the hatch and Boom, catastrophic failure. The guy said he almost Died of fear and it sounded like a shotgun. Whole roof shattered. Ive seen DL destroyed by hail but not shatter. That is unbelievable...

LCG - I speced Commercial Roofs in WY the last 6 years. I am a Sarna Fan but I must say they never spent money on my while I was working for an Architect. IB didn’t have a sales Presence. They never once came Pitching there Speal to me. I’ve heard its great but How as an Architect are we supposed to learn about them. I didn’t specify anything I didn’t set foot on a Comparable project at least 10 years old. (Just ask Flex) hehe 
What is your Company Name? What do you consider Central WY. Do you Bid any CTA Architects Jobs? I worked ALOT with Bighorn. I consider them a Top Contractor in the US. They know how to run a business and how to get work done.


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## 1985gt

Pie in the Sky said:


> GT- I saw a shattered Trocal roof just a few years ago. it was winter COLD Negative 30 with frost. Maintenance guy stepped out of the hatch and Boom, catastrophic failure. The guy said he almost Died of fear and it sounded like a shotgun. Whole roof shattered. Ive seen DL destroyed by hail but not shatter. That is unbelievable...
> 
> Well they were not that bad, but it wasn't -30 either. By shatter I guess I meant spider web cracking in the area of hail strikes.
> 
> So did the maintenance guy go home and change his underwear shortly after?


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## epfeiffer

*RE:*

Not Sure if the project this thread started was ever completed but i think the TPO roofing is the way to go. i've worked for Tremco installing and repairing TPO roofs, designed roof trusses before that, and now work for a metal roofing manufacturer. After everything is said and done it will be cheaper for TPO. I have never seen a truss job go smoothly, or a roofing job for that matter. If this were an existing pitched roof i would recommend metal for longevity, but the retrofit will likely not go smoothly. throw some rain or snow into the mix you could end up going well over time and budget. Just my two cents!


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## Roof MD

Pie in the Sky said:


> I have to Call BS on this and If it is true I need to hear more about it to be informed, PM me if you want. I’ve seen hundreds of Sarnafil systems and they are the least brittle of the PVC's I am familier with. What you are describing was maybe a different PVC like 20 or 25 years ago. I never even heard of a DuroLast shattering... To me a TPO would be much more prone to this because of its chemical makeup (lack of plasticizers) and its rigidity. You can stand a 10 foot 80 mil TPO sheet on end if its cool enough.


 I have hundreds of pics of durolast shattering. System on roof, anywhere from 3 to 15 yrs. It shatters and shatters really bad. We had a hail storm last yr. that left a lot of durolast roofs shattered with millions of penetrations. We have a lot of durolast used in this area and so there are plenty of examples of this. For the most part it performs well, but does shatter with or without hail, as I have seen both. There are better PVC's and I it will be interesting to see what happens with the newer formulation TPO's in time.


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## Pie in the Sky

Lets see the pics... Maybe our definition of shattering is different... Working in Hail country with Lots of DL roofs here I am aware of what hail can do to them. Ive just never seen one "shatter" like if you dropped a plate of glass. I have seen Non reinforced PVC roofs shatter.


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## LCG

I wish some of these people would come back and let us know how the project turned out.

Did they go with TPO or Metal?:wallbash:


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## AnyMonkey

O'Donnell Roofing & Solar said:


> TPO-EPDM etc, $45,000.00 / 25 years = $1,800.00 per year
> Kynar painted steel $90,000.00 / 50 years =$1,800.00 per year
> 
> Or go with the TPO & bank the other 45k in an annuity.
> after 25 years @ compounded 3% it will be worth, $94,220.01
> 
> Just in time for the next roof, = 50 years of coverage for the same money,


 
Thats the funny thing about math... it can alway be adjusted to suit any arguement...... in 1992 we were quoting 18 square Vancouver special roofs for $2600.00 now they are $12,600.00 or 4.85 times the price of 22 years ago. $45,000.00 times 4.85..... hmmmmm

not an advocate for either system just pointing something out.


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