# State of the business where I work



## gary (Jul 1, 2012)

Well, the baseball size hail storms are now almost three months old, and some more have hit us. Last year was a big one for storms here, too.

So, it is time for the same old crooked insurers to stop paying all claims again. Ho hum, how predictable. We roofing pros have a long way to go to get our industry the protection that the homeowners paid for.

I came from the automobile industry where the Big 3 and the foreign biggies got the insurers in line. There is no black hole where no car coverage exists.

If you are in a car accident, that damage is covered by the insurer. I mean, can you imagine if you were driving home your new car from the dealership, when you were rear ended. After the dealer rightly said the manufacturer would not warranty that, your adjuster told you if was not covered because the rear axle was not broken. That would leave you in what i fondly refer to as the black hole. You would have apid for insurance, but you would have no coverage. The outcry from the public would be unbearable for the states.

As you all know, the two biggies know that homeowners know little to nothing about their roofs, unlike their cars. They also feel we as an industry are powerless. So, they create the black hole. Shingle manufacturers stop their warranty (even up to a lifetime warranty) when there is granule loss. However, the crooked insurers try to say that the mat must be fractured.

To check for a fractured mat, the kool aid infested adjuster must peel up the shingle. That also voids the warranty. When sealant bonds are broken, the shingle warranty is voided. It is hard to imagine that these crooks try this over and over every year. Trying it is frustrating, but this year, they are vehemently sticking to it, here.

This is way too early for me to tell customers that I will not work for them if they are insured by the two crooked biggies. I can't take another year filled with that frustration. You guys can share them. Usually, I do not do that until the fall.


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## BrandRoof (Dec 13, 2011)

Grump should be chiming in soon. I second his opinion. There's nothing worst than a hailstorm or hurricane to screw up a local market.


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## dougger222 (Aug 13, 2010)

Ya,
The past couple adjusters claim the hail damage must break the mat. My buddy graduated from the Haag class early this year and there they say the hail damage must impead the water shedding capability of the shingle to warrant a shingles/roof replacement.

Interesting about the voiding warranty on prying up a tab, may have to try that one...


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## gary (Jul 1, 2012)

Dougger;

I had not heard that version of Haag training, but it makes sense. I am just convinced that the top two insurers are trying to avoid paying claims. Here are two examples:

1. I had an adjuster say that he was in a meeting with the biggest insurer the day before. He was told that 30% of the claims the adjusters approved were bogus. He refused the roof with hail damage. A few weeks later another hail storm went through that town. The homeowner now has found that it missed his house, but he filed a new claim and won.

2. I had an adjuster from the second biggest, who said he left the biggest because they get to a point in a storm when they quit paying. He couldn't play that game ethically. As we reviewed and he marked the roof, another adjuster came to the house. Within minutes, they zeroed out all four sides. One side had ten hits marked. I wonder what that poor adjuster will do now.


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## gary (Jul 1, 2012)

Brandroof;

I guess hail storms do yield some negative things, like crooked roofers. However, there would be essentially no roofing business in your town or mine without it. I guess maybe if there was no hail, then the insurers could not cheat the homeowners out of hail damage coverage??? I guess I missed that one...


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## BrandRoof (Dec 13, 2011)

gary said:


> Brandroof;
> 
> I guess hail storms do yield some negative things, like crooked roofers. However, there would be essentially no roofing business in your town or mine without it. I guess maybe if there was no hail, then the insurers could not cheat the homeowners out of hail damage coverage??? I guess I missed that one...


Interesting concept but so far this year I've done one insurance claim. I do 6-10 residential roofs a month and maybe a 100 sq flat roof every other month only because my price, well that's just it, it's my price and I don't chase. That being said, my roofing company is not my bread and butter.

Contrary to popular belief, there are homeowners in this world that do believe that roof replacement is normal maintenance for a home. So to say there would be no roofing business in my town without hail is just a little bit asinine.


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## Pie in the Sky (Dec 21, 2011)

I perform many hail inspections for Insurance companies, homeowners, etc. I would count a hail strike if there is “significant” granule loss at the area of impact, 50% is the tolerance we use. The exposed asphalt will deteriorate faster. As a professional, I have to call this damage as it technically shortens the life of the roof. In reality, the life of the roof has not been shortened because those tiny marks on the shingles will not be what leads to the ultimate failure of the roof. Unfortunately I also do a fair amount of appraisals and I know this in a rarely won argument. 

Dictionary.com 

*DAMAGE:* *injury or harm that reduces value or usefulness*

Here are the questions I ask myself:

_-Are there impacts which reduce the water shedding capability of this roof?_ (this is the term that’s used because the roof is designed to shed water)
_-Do the impacts affect the effective remaining service life?_
_-Have the impacts reduced the value of the roof?_

Its cut and dry to me and Ive probably seen 500+ residential roofs that were in a hail storm. 

The real crooks are the manufacturers of the shingles who make them cheaper and cheaper with less and less asphalt and give these ridicules “Warranties” aimed at selling products. And the fact that roofing is a maintenance issue and insurance isnt there for maintenance. But if there’s damage theres damage. I total roofs all the time that should have been replaced YEARS before but the homeowner waited for a hail storm. By all rights they are owed a new roof because there is “Damage” but it is really the insurance company who loses out in this case. And in reality, its you and I who lose out because all of our premiums go up. As a professional, I am a third party. I go against insurance companies all the time because I have to tell the truth because of professional ethics and the fact that sometimes I end up in court. And the fact that I wouldnt be in this business long if I was doing favors and not giving the facts. But I understand usually why they had me out. I rarely look at a roof that has an easy answer. 

And furthermore, 90% of the roofs I have recommended replacement due to hail, had they been left in place would have performed adequately until the shingle failed by other means.


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## dougger222 (Aug 13, 2010)

It sure is crazy the things adjusters will and wont buy. 

Been on roofs with ZERO hail damage only to find the insured had the adjuster out and they paid for a whole new roof. 

Been on many roofs with quite a bit of hail damage and they get denied by more than one adjuster.

We do a lot of inspections for potential customers who had storm chasers think there's storm damage. The insureds call their agent who in turn tell them to call me. I would say in these cases were stormers say there's damage there's damage less than half the time!

I don't go door to door and have done many hundred roofs from storm damage and have been on so many have no idea exactly how many! 

P in the Sky, I would have to agree with your 90% from my experiance as well, or possibly 95% from hail. 

Think it's funny how an adjuster will buy a roof from nickle sized hail damage and the salesmen for the storm chaser tries to convince the insured they need to replace the roof tomorrow so it won't leak.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

No business without hail? Hmmmm that's a load of horse shit. The reason thgat might even be remotely true is because the storm chaser has conditioned the consumer to simply wait for the next hail storm if they need a new roof.

Gary, I do not know you, but I do not believe for one minute that you are trying to get the insured the coverage they are paying for. I believe that you are not doing this as a charity but as a profit center, thus you can about getting paid. There is nothing wrong with that, but let us call a spade a spade. You want to get the job approved so that you can make some money.


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## dougger222 (Aug 13, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> No business without hail? Hmmmm that's a load of horse shit. The reason thgat might even be remotely true is because the storm chaser has conditioned the consumer to simply wait for the next hail storm if they need a new roof.
> 
> Gary, I do not know you, but I do not believe for one minute that you are trying to get the insured the coverage they are paying for. I believe that you are not doing this as a charity but as a profit center, thus you can about getting paid. There is nothing wrong with that, but let us call a spade a spade. You want to get the job approved so that you can make some money.


Good point Grumpy!

Although we do a lot of insurance work the year of and the year after a storm we do a lot of roofing without an insurance payment. 

A responsible homeowner will not wait for a hail storm to replace a roof.

To be honest after doing a lot of insurance work it's sort of nice to do some old fashion tear offs. You charge YOUR price you commit to do the work, you get half down and when your done you get the second half. With insurance you gotta wait for the adjuster then you gotta wait for the check. Once the insured gets the check in most cases you gotta wait for the mortgage company to pay 1/3 which more often than not won't even cover materials! Then you gotta wait for the inspector from the mortgage company than you gotta wait for the next check. Once the completion form is mailed or faxed in you gotta wait for the final payment which in most cases is your proffit.

Grumpy, now I know why you hate doing insurance work!!! (And not enough $$$)


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

More work for less money that's the primary reason I hate insurance work. Seems backasswards to me. If I do more work, if I have a higher risk by having to wait to get paid, should I deserve more reward? 

The other half of the equation is so many scum bags operate in insurance restoration, no not to say all insurance restoration contractors are scum bags, but I just don't want to lower myself to that. When you wallow with pigs you get dirty. 

The third half, if even 3 halfs were possible is I can't install the kind of roof I want to install because insurance won't pay for the upgrades and the home owner won't pay for the upgrades and I don't want to lower my standard.


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## dougger222 (Aug 13, 2010)

Most of the people out knocking on doors are washed up realtors or used car salesmen. They promise many things to potential customers and very rarely do the things they promise. Perhaps after their storm chasing days are over they can run for politics???


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## shazapple (Dec 3, 2010)

Hail is a rare occurence around here, so I don't know much about it. Do insurance companies encourage the use of roofing materials with a higher hail resistance?


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## gary (Jul 1, 2012)

Grumpy and Brandroof;

The word "essentially" in my post negates your posts. In the future, please read my posts before you start this insulting stuff, OK? By the way, I took it that Brandroof is in Houston, where I know the insurance stats. They are easily obtained. It is just facts. 

Mark Twain said what I think of that pretty well. "Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." Maybe we can go to a higher level of communication?


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## gary (Jul 1, 2012)

A few things are factual in this: state insurance laws, insurance policies and shingle manufacturer warranties. Without knowledge of those, this is just all hearsay. The void between insurance policies and shingle manufacturer warranties was the point of the OP. Thanks to those who have come forward trying to brainstorm this precedent setting issue.

In preliminary investigation of the Haag field manual, I am being told that the insane fractured mat is the basis of the water retention. Does anyone have a copy of that manual? If so, can you quote me the part on this?


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## dougger222 (Aug 13, 2010)

gary said:


> A few things are factual in this: state insurance laws, insurance policies and shingle manufacturer warranties. Without knowledge of those, this is just all hearsay. The void between insurance policies and shingle manufacturer warranties was the point of the OP. Thanks to those who have come forward trying to brainstorm this precedent setting issue.
> 
> In preliminary investigation of the Haag field manual, I am being told that the insane fractured mat is the basis of the water retention. Does anyone have a copy of that manual? If so, can you quote me the part on this?


My good friend who's Haag certified as of early this year is at the Dells all week but when he gets back I'll have him foward me over the comments about mat breaking and water shedding capabilities.


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## dougger222 (Aug 13, 2010)

shazapple said:


> Hail is a rare occurence around here, so I don't know much about it. Do insurance companies encourage the use of roofing materials with a higher hail resistance?


Have had many homeowners ask about hail resisant shingles but have never put them on due due to the cost. 

We have put on a lot of higher grade thicker laminate shingles which do hold up to hail pretty good. 

Did a Landmark TL roof last Summer and a hail storm hit the area a few weeks ago. The roofs on both sides along with the siding got bought but the TL roof looks perfect. The homeowner was informed to not file a claim.

We also did a standard Landmark roof back in early 07 on a house out in the country. The next door neighbor had the siding and roof replaced again after we did the roof with Landmarks. The homeowner called for an inspection at which time the fascia, cedar siding, and vinyl siding all had a lot of damage. The metal vents on the roof got blasted with hail, even the plumbing vents had big hits on them. The adjuster and I found one ridge with an impact mark. The hail was 2 inches and it was wind driven and hard. Been back out 2 times to inspect the roof and it's still showing no signs of impact marks.

What I have found is shortly after a hail storm the impact marks can be tough to see.


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## gary (Jul 1, 2012)

dougger222 said:


> My good friend who's Haag certified as of early this year is at the Dells all week but when he gets back I'll have him foward me over the comments about mat breaking and water shedding capabilities.


Thank you very much, Dougger!


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## gary (Jul 1, 2012)

Schazapple;

Indeed, the insurers (particularly SF) do push the hail resistant (class 4, UL 2218) shingles. I have found no difference in their resistance capabilities, so far, but I am confident they do hold up better. The insurer gives the homeowner a discount on premiums, though, so homeowners do request this. If you are a roofer, be sure you know all the details from the insurer before you put one on...


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## BrandRoof (Dec 13, 2011)

gary said:


> Grumpy and Brandroof;
> 
> The word "essentially" in my post negates your posts. In the future, please read my posts before you start this insulting stuff, OK? By the way, I took it that Brandroof is in Houston, where I know the insurance stats. They are easily obtained. It is just facts.
> 
> Mark Twain said what I think of that pretty well. "Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." Maybe we can go to a higher level of communication?


Lucky you...your a negator. I think the stupid or shall I say idiotic one is Gary by saying that"essentially" there would no roofing business in my town without hail. Someone who thinks along those lines is not capable of a higher level of communication.


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## gary (Jul 1, 2012)

So much for the higher level of communication...

Brandroof has zero facts, so far. I wondered why he even replied, as he does not involve himself in insurance claims. The thread is about insurance claims. However, then I realized he is prejudiced against insurance based roofers, even though he works in a town where over 90% of the residential roof work goes to insurance claims. Oh, I am so relieved that he does not think like me. 

I did not, of course, say there would be no business without hail. Again, Brandroof cannot read and comprehend. Obviously, every market with no hail or hurricanes (like Houston) has replacements of roofs from peoples' pockets. It is just that Houston gets a ton of storms almost every year.


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## BrandRoof (Dec 13, 2011)

gary said:


> even though he works in a town where over 90% of the residential roof work goes to insurance claims.
> 
> It is just that Houston gets a ton of storms almost every year.


:laughing:

I don't know where in the hell you get your facts but maybe if I told you that I shit 5 dollar bills and wipe with 20's you would believe me as well.

We don't get damaging hail around here but this year we had 2 of them that damaged a semi rural area this year, if you consider those and 2 hurricanes in a 30 year time frame a ton of storms, well it's safe to say you don't live in Dallas.

After reading this post I'm done with this thread, no sense in dealing with someone you doesn't have a clue.


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## shazapple (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks guys. Do you see a lot of composite shingles (rubber and recycled material) going on?


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## gary (Jul 1, 2012)

Shazapple;

That is a good question on the shingles being installed. I don't know about everyone else, but I have been loyal to GAF/ELK, who has a good value in my markets. 

It is funny, though as an aside, that ours is such a people business. Adjusters can be great or awful, and it really matters. Roofers can be crooks and heroes. Workers can be terrific or our worst enemies. Inspectors can help out a lot or really get in the way. No processes can totally overcome a jerk, but processes can sure enhance the great person. People wonder why this business has such a need for a good manager. You just never know what will happen, at least in my case. I am constantly trying to assess the character of the person in the loop at the time to make it work.

In this light, we had a great GAF/ELK rep for years. He tried hard to understand our side of the story, and he usually made the right decision. Now, we have a lazy zero. I am in the process of assessing other shingles again. I hate to rat this guy out. I'd rather switch if it makes sense, but my loyalty to others in that chain make it unlikely.

Every roof I see installed seems to have a major brand of shingles, so I do not see much experimentation. I do get worked up when I see some crooked roofer install a second shingle, without disclosing that to the homeowner. I guess I could understand if that happened to the crooked homeowners, but it seems to happen to the really nice and naive customers.


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## Roofing professional (Jul 12, 2012)

You know, the representation can make or break a product. With that aside, I'm loyal to GAF too and I think that the company is doing the right thing with their certification program, I have a great salesman now, but had a poor one before and I recommend to talk to their management if there ever is any issues... Switching manufactures, to me, is a big decision, because it's a partnership not just buying shingles. I think anyways.


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## larryb (Jul 22, 2010)

Again...there are, always have been and always will be "scumbag" contractors from the retail as well as the insurance side. When our wonderful politicians screw up the economy and no one is buying retail and a storm comes along, should the pro retail contractor simply rail against the legitimate pro contractors who do recession proof ins work or should they learn how the process works - ethically, then go out and help homeowners with their claims for which they will be well paid? When they do (pro ethical retail contractors who are local), they do a good service to the community and keep work away from retail and insurance "less then" contractors. Really isn't al that complicated.

HAAG nonsense...if my car gets dented by hail but is still functional even though value has been decreased, ins pays to replace the damaged parts. Same for "dented" roofing. Life expectancy and cosmetic value decreased. Pay the damn claim and bring the roof, the car, the whatever back to the condition it was in previous to the event.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

The insurance process doesn't work ethically, that's the point Larry. I'd love to install thousands of roofs per year, but I would be a million dollars in debt working for insurance rates, period. Better to let the insurance guys take the hit and then I make my money on the repairs, cleaning up their mistakes. Pay me now or pay me later, I make a lot of money from storm work... I just make my money 3, 4, 5 years after the stormers have left town.


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## larryb (Jul 22, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> The insurance process doesn't work ethically, that's the point Larry. I'd love to install thousands of roofs per year, but I would be a million dollars in debt working for insurance rates, period. Better to let the insurance guys take the hit and then I make my money on the repairs, cleaning up their mistakes. Pay me now or pay me later, I make a lot of money from storm work... I just make my money 3, 4, 5 years after the stormers have left town.


What about all the local retail guy's who become instant storm damage experts after a storm but make a mess of things as well when all is said and done?

It doesn't work ethically if the contractor is not ethical, and there are enough of them that aren't - out of state stormers or local guys. The insurance companies, on the other hand, regularly miss items and underpay or deny legitimate damage which makes them unethical as well and their McCarran-Ferguson anti-trust exemptions allow them to continually get away with it.

I've had no more than three minor repairs in the past ten years on insurance work I've done and no complaints from anyone. Earned an average of 42% profit on every insurance job and that was after getting P&C ins to fully pay on each of those jobs. Most of those jobs were on higher value properties as well. Since insurance work is "pre-paid", I spent zero time haggeling on price with the HO (no "free" estimates) which freed up my time to work on their behalf for full and accurate payment. 

I never forced the hand of any ins co to sign their checks for my customers jobs that I priced at full RTA but they paid them anyway because they knew my "high" prices were justified. I made great money, the customers got great problem free work and the ins co paid relative to their promises made when the HO bought the policy. 

Retail or ins work, local or out of state; always good and bad. Generalizations typically illustrate a lack of clarity on the subject as a whole.


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