# ice daming complaint!



## mandrroofing (Jan 31, 2011)

Recently here in central ohio we had a major ice storm .I mean trees falling over under the weight.I had a 2 year old customer call with a leak from ice ramming.she was irate on the phone.you know,one of Thoughs customers that you caint please no matter what.I installed ice guard of course.we do good work.I even have a clause that says we are not responsible for ice dams.she says I am.what would you do?people just don't understand that a sloped roof is made to shed water and not hold it...


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## Slyfox (Oct 30, 2008)

mandrroofing said:


> Recently here in central ohio we had a major ice storm .I mean trees falling over under the weight.I had a 2 year old customer call with a leak from ice ramming.she was irate on the phone.you know,one of Thoughs customers that you caint please no matter what.I installed ice guard of course.we do good work.I even have a clause that says we are not responsible for ice dams.she says I am.what would you do?people just don't understand that a sloped roof is made to shed water and not hold it...


Ice storms do not cause ice dams, they simply cover everything in ice and some times cause it to collapse due to the added weight.

Ice & Water Shield doe's not prevent ice dams, it helps "not eliminates" to minimize the damage caused by them.

Figure out what caused the ice dam, figure out exactly where and how it backed up under your roof and come up with the method of resolving that/those issues.
(In my experiences the problem falls into the ventilation/insulation area.)

There are times when even a properly installed roof leaks due to extreme storm conditions so don't over stress yourself on worrying about what ifs
and be patient.

The only wrong thing to do is to do nothing.


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## Acubis (Jan 10, 2011)

*Sounds like a opportunity to sell*

Here in Michigan a lot on contractors get this on a routine basis. 

IceDams are somehow due to heat loss.

An Ice storm could evenly coat surface in Ice. Your probably did nothing wrong but the home has an insulation/ventilation problem that you can now see and address.

Offer to go out look at the problem and then tell her. I am glad you had us out thank you for calling. I checked out our work and the shingles we installed properly and the Ice and water shield is adhered. It appears the water cannot exit your roof which is meant to shed water. 

The problem lies in the fact that "a, b, c " most commonly blocked soffit venting, inadequate insulation, heat loss through attic lid penetrations ie Can lights. etc etc.

We could fix that for $XX.XX

www.researchroofing.com


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## Warmsmeallup (Jan 30, 2009)

Insulate the heck out of...it will still happen. The first law of thermal conductivity is that heat seeks cold. As long as they are heating their home, the heat will rise and it will escape through the roof (along with the walls, etc..) Insulation may slow it down but it doesn't stop it.

Sell them a roof and gutter de-icing system by installing Self Regulating heating cable in the gutters and leaders first. Start there and if that isn't enough, splice in a serpentine run up the roof about 1' into the exterior wall to keep the melting snw flowing to the ground.

However, in the northeast where we et "Nor-Easters" blow through (5 times this year already), even Self Regulating won't work al the time. There are true solutions but they are not cheap. Look into ZMesh low voltage roof de-icing systems.


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## lab rat (Sep 27, 2009)

Go to your Shingle Manufactures web site and print out there brochure on Ice Dams
it will explaine how they are formed and how to prevent it from happening. here is
CertainTeeds, it should help. I have used them. (sorry its long, you can download the PDF file)
*Protecting
Your Home From
Ice Dams​H o m e o w n e r ’s Gu i d e​What Are Ice Dams?​*Ice dams are formed when heat from the inside
of a home escapes into the attic and warms
the roof decking during the winter. This heat,
combined with heat from the sun, can melt snow
on the roof. Melting snow on the upper roof
and in the valleys then runs down toward the
eaves as water. When it reaches the cold eaves
and gutters it refreezes. The continual thaw and
re-freeze process creates ice dams. The result
is water backing up under the roof shingles or
behind fascia boards where it can soak through
the roof decking or wall sheathing, causing
damage to attics, ceilings and walls.​*Ice Dam
Formation​Ice Dam Defense​*There are three ways to defend against the
damage ice dams cause: insulation, ventilation
and water-proofing shingle underlayment.
All three work together. Insulation keeps heat
from escaping from your home’s living space
into your attic. Ventilation removes the heat
and helps keep the roof deck evenly cool to
help prevent snow from melting on the roof.
Finally, waterproofing shingle underlayment,
such as WinterGuard,™ is laid across the roof
before roof shingles are applied. WinterGuard
is warranted against leaks from dams that do
form on the roof.​*Fiber Glass
Insulation
Ridge Vents
Vented Soffits
Shingles
WinterGuard™​*With existing roofs, waterproofing shingle
underlayment is only an option if you remove
the existing shingles or are building a new
addition. Regardless, increasing the insulation
R-value in the attic is always possible and ventilation
can usually be added to your attic easily.​*WinterGuard™​Insulation​*An attic insulated to today’s energy standards
with fiber glass insulation minimizes heat escape
through the ceiling, virtually eliminating the
possibility of snow melting and refreezing at the
base of the roof.
If your home was built before 1980, chances are
it needs more attic insulation. The amount of
insulation your house should have will vary
depending on where you live, how your house is
built and many other factors including your lifestyle.
Insulation levels are recommended by geographic
zones and are stated in R-values. R-value is the
resistance to heat flow of a material. The higher
the R-value, the greater the insulating power.
The following map and chart indicate recommended
levels of insulation by geographic area.​*Ceiling Wall Floor
Insulation Insulation Insulation
R-value R-value R-value
1 R-49 R-19 R-25
2 R-38 R-19 R-19
3 R-38 R-19 R-13
4 R-30 R-19 R-11
5 R-19 R-11 R-11​*R-values on the chart represent CertainTeed
recommendations for meeting today’s energy
standards. Department of Energy thermal
recommendations and the Council of American
Building Officials Model Energy Code provide the
basis for CertainTeed’s insulationrecommendations.​*Ventilation​*The second thing to look for in your attic is the
amount of ventilation that you have. It is import a n t
to have ventilation in the attic so any heat lost
f rom the interior of the home is drawn up and out
of the attic. Adequate attic ventilation will help
the roof deck stay cool. Another benefit of having
your attic ventilated is that it allows for moisture
that rises into the attic from things such as bathing,
cooking and the laundry to escape. Unchecked
moisture can promote mold, mildew, and wood rot.
There are two common ways to ensure that
excess moisture or heat can escape to the outside.
One way is to use a power or mechanical ventilation
system. The other way is through a natural, or
static, ventilation system. A power ventilator is an
electric powered fan installed at the roof or gable
that runs by a thermostat or humidistat when the
attic needs ventilation. Natural or static ventilation
systems consist of simple vent or covered
openings in your attic. These are typically ridge
vents, gable, eave, or roof vents. Many ventilation
experts agree that externally baffled ridge vents
combined with vented soffits are a very effective
method for ventilating an attic.
Where older construction doesn’t permit ridge
and soffit ventilation, powered fans can be
a good alternative.
A properly designed ventilation system must have
both intake vents in the soffit or in the eaves at
the lower part of the attic, as well as exhaust
ventilation, such as ridge vents, high in the attic
at or near the ridge.
Cooler, dryer outside air typically enters through
eave vents near the attic floor, forcing existing
moisture-laden or heated air out through vents
placed high on the roof or gable.
By ensuring proper insulation and ventilation,
you will run less risk of the formation of ice dams,
and you will substantially reduce the likelihood
of damaging your attic components.​*Special Cases​*Many new homes feature cathedral or vaultedceiling
roofs and skylights. Both present special
cases for insulation that CertainTeed recommends
you discuss carefully with your builder or contractor.
Insulation manufacturers like CertainTeed have
created high-performance fiber glass batts that
are designed specifically for cathedral ceilings
to provide higher R-values per inch than standard
fiber glass batts.
In the case of skylights, quality workmanship
and attention to detail are important in preventing
ice dams and condensation which often lead
to leaks. To avoid problems, make sure your
builder or contractor properly insulates around
the skylight and uses a moisture retarder to
prevent condensation. In addition, applying
waterproofing shingle underlayment around the
skylight opening is recommended.​*Warranty​*All shingle manufacturers exclude from warranty
coverage leaks caused by water backup behind ice
dams, which can form on the eaves of the roof.
These leaks can be easily prevented. Proper
ventilation will minimize the chances of ice dam
formation, and WinterGuard​​​​TM waterproofing
shingle underlayment, properly installed, will
prevent leaks in spite of ice dam formation and
will also prevent leaks from wind-driven rain.​
*Waterproofing
Underlayment​*If you are building a new home, or reroofing
an older home, you should also insist that
waterproofing shingle underlayment be installed
before your roof shingles are applied. As
mentioned
earlier, it is completely resistant to water and,
as such, is a critical last line of defense against
leaks, preventing backed up water from getting
into your home wherever it is applied.
CertainTeedWi n t e r G u a rd​​​​TM is warranted to prevent
water penetration for the warranted life of the
new asphalt shingles
applied over it
(up to a maximum
of 50 years). While shingle underlayment does
not prevent the formation of ice dams, it will
prevent backed up water from getting into the
house. Discuss shingle underlayment placement
with your builder or contractor. However, as a
guide, CertainTeed recommends that it be applied:​
•​​​​​​​​​Under metal flashing and counter flashing
at roof penetrations, sidewalls, etc.​
•​​​​​​​​​In areas where roof pitches change, in valleys
and around chimneys.​
•​​​​​​​​​Along the eaves and at short cornice projections.​


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## vtroofing (Sep 27, 2009)

Living in Vermont we have been blessed with a ton of snow this year, and a ton more calls for ice damming and/ or snow removal from roofs- something I don't regularly approve of- but in some situations needed.

I have attached a photo of one solution I did last year on a house. Cold roof. 

Older roofs, two layers and more that need to come off back to the board sheathing and new plywood installed are perfect candidates for a cold roof. 

Simply lay 2x4's flat over the existing rafters creating a 1 1/2" airspace. Leave the bottom overhanging and wrap with screen or a full 2" vented drip edge/ vent strip and custom drop drip edge for gables (to cover void left in end of venting drip edge and plywood and 2x4's. See pic.


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## vtroofing (Sep 27, 2009)

PS: Some cold roofs I have seen have rigid insulation under or between the 2x4's it is important to note without sealing off the attic (bad idea) the insulation does nothing to the heating bills as the main roof should still have ventilation and that is where the heat will escape before it is saved by insulation board.

My thoughts for the electric heat tape whatever in your ice storm knocked down trees does that not take the power lines as well?


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## garabar (Feb 9, 2010)

We're out of South Florida so while we never have to deal with this scenario (fortunately), we do have to be careful about plenty of other weather related issues. The bottom line is that you'll never win all the time with customer service and I haven't seen your contracts so I don't want to say anything out of line. From experience though, bringing in an objective third party like the material rep to talk to them about the situation could be a good idea. It's a tough situation, but angry customers are more likely to talk about their bad experience than happy customers talk about good ones. You win some and you lose some.


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www.garabar.com


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## superroofer (Feb 13, 2011)

I would do two things. first, stop and see her bringing a sample of ice and water shield and shingles. Show her how it works, and what it can and can't do. Seeing her in person will help calm her down. 

Second, Make sure you make a note of the potential problems ice can cause in your proposals. When they complain 2 year later, you show them the contract outlining this may be an issue. It may even lead to an up-sell to add insulation/ventilation later. 

Good Luck

-Superroofer
Commercial Roofing Contractor


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## The Roofing God (Oct 31, 2008)

Need all 3 steps to be protected:
1) Proper amt./type of insulation-required min R-38 my area,and sealing of any pipes etc. where they pass thru walls into attic.
2)ventilation:balanced soffit,and ridge ventilation to release any escaping heat from your attic--The attic should be as close to outside temperature as possible.
3)Proper flashing behind any gutters,and Ice and water shield installed minimally up to 2 ft. past any bearing walls.


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## jcarnesroofing (Feb 22, 2011)

Make your customers aware that even the best roof system with adequate insulation and ventilation is at risk for ice damage. It is up to the home owner to maintain their roof in extreme snows. Snow has an R-value and will easily block a ridgevent making it useless. Tell your customer they need to shovel their roof if the snow is blocking the vents. Offer your services, this is a great way to earn repeat business years to come every winter.

www.jcarnesroofing.com


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