# why would u leave your roof open



## Jasonthompson

Why would u leave ur roof open to the elements. I just don't get that. I never would do that. That's my opinion. Cause what if it rains with high winds, felt is only water resitent for so long till it starts to bleed water. Then what u have home owner calling u saying it's leaking and then who looks like the dumb ass, u do and that can hurt a company's rep around town. Plus then that's when u got to start making claims on your insurance, repairing drywall, and replacing insulation there goes ur profit. So in my opinion why would u leave ur roof open?


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## Grumpy

Good post. When I makes posts like this, I get flamed to hell. I agree. I do not beelive that dry-ins are dry. 

Although I do understand why in FL it is done, because there are so many inspection requirements and inspectors are never on time. 

I also understand why companies do it, it's cheaper to send out your lowest paid hacks to rip the roof and then send your skilled roofers the next day to roof it in. In addition come comoanies might be remodeling whores, the kind of company that does everything, and doesn't have enough forehtough to think about how much they'll be able to put back that day so they just tear tear tear until they get tired.

However I prefer to practice not to tear off more than you can put back the same day. Certainly stop tearing by noon, or sooner.


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## Jasonthompson

I agree with u on this. so many companies do bite more off then they can chew!!! and ur right about Fl and inspector's are never on time. But thats when u have to plan ahead for that. Maybe on those days ur guy's work alittle later on those days or if u are leaving it open for a long time aleast trap the roof with new traps not old holely ones that are ur tear off traps. thanks on the comment I don't mine getting flamed to hell cause why would u put yourself in that spot anyways. u know!!! but people can't stand to be told the truth.


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## Grumpy

If you tarp the roof, the inspector can't see LOL. I'd hate to be working in FL. The inspectors around my area will be satisfied with pictures showing the ice shield installed.


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## Slyfox

!Flames!

If you can't believe the dozens of experienced roofers in this and other forums that have explained how the underlayment can be installed to hold out the weather you should question your selves about rather or not your able to hear the truth and learn something new.

*End !Flaming!


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## red_cedar

This thread is so ridiculous and will not reply other than for the comment.


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## yanceyman1

*"traping ur roof"?*

Grumpy, I'm surprised at you! I have read many of your very intelligent replies here, but surely you are not going to tell me that you agree with the notion that a properly felted in roof cannot sit thru a rain storm without leaking? And as far as "traping" the roof, Jason when was the last time you tried to trap a 8in12 tile job with 460 ft. of valley, 320 ft. of hips, 2 chimneys, 4 dormers and a host of "hot" pipes on the deck? Impossible! So what would be your solution? Tear off portions of the roof, but only if you could cover it the same day? That would mean tearing to or from a hip or gable, in order to keep it watertight, right? Then you would have to felt and batt that section, call out the material supply company and have them load tile on just that section.( are you with me so far?) If this is the way you do your roofs, you must only contract 4in12 comp jobs under 20 sqs. Let me explain why... If you had to tear off, base & batt, load and then lay all in the same day, how many sqs. do you think you could complete? With a kick ass crew, maybe 4 or 5? From your replies so far, I'll say 4. So that would mean that on my 85 sq. tile job you would have the material supply company come out and load 21.25 times! Shoot, the way you would run this job, eventually you would have the tear off crew, loading crew AND installers bumping into each other, trying to tear off, load and install at the same time! Wait, I'm just joking! You wouldn't really do that. Do you know why? Because I would of fired you WAY before that!:thumbup:
On a more serious note, red_cedar, I am sorry to stoop this low. But it just fries my bacon to read these ridiculous replies from people who are not qualified to carry a real journeyman's tool bags. Ok, Ok I'll stop.
I must tell you that your reply to my thread was VERY helpfull. Thanks.
Also high-five to slyfox!! Now there is a roofer that knows what he is doing!:notworthy: So how about it fellow JOURNEYMAN roofers, can you felt in a roof in the winter, with a storm coming, and not lay awake at night worrying about leaks? Oh, and one last thing, Have any of you ever seen felt ,"bleed water"?:laughing:


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## Interloc

Slyfox and yancyman1...thumbs up dudes


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## BamBamm5144

I usually try to get the job torn off and felted in one day, with the shingles delievered as late as possible, and be able to roof the next day. Of course if there is the potential for a huge storm I usually wait until the storm has passed to start the job. I have felted in jobs where it unexpectedly rained that night and I never worry about it and have never had problems. With the shinglemate felt from GAF, nearly all bubbles dissapear when the sun for awhile although I am slowly becomming a big fan of Tamkos regular old 15lb.

There is no reason why you should not be able to dry in a roof one day, and have it remain dry until the next in a light or even moderate rain shower.


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## Grumpy

Slyfox said:


> !Flames!
> 
> If you can't believe the dozens of experienced roofers in this and other forums that have explained how the underlayment can be installed to hold out the weather you should question your selves about rather or not your able to hear the truth and learn something new.
> 
> *End !Flaming!


We as business owners need to manage risk. That is our primary function. Nobody is going to care about the reputation of your copany as much as you do. Nobody is goign to care about your financial stability that comes from managing risk and eliminating mistakes, as much as you will. No matter how good you are, you are tempting fate and taking on more liability by leaving the roof covered with felt. I am sure we can all agree that felt is no where near as good as a finished roof. There is definetly an increased risk.

Therefore as a risk manager I have concluded that it is not in the best interest of my company nor my customers property to take such risks. 

Can a dry in be made water tight? Sure, but why? I mean it just maks sense to only tear off as much as you can roof that day and be SAFE. I have never had a single good answer to the question why. The only answer I have ever heard, which doesn't satisfy me, is "because it's easier for me the roofer to tear it all off at once." Faster and easier is NOT better. 


I disagree that this thread is ridiculious. This thread holds tremendous merit. Put yourselves in the mind of your customer for a minute, we tend to too often think like roofers. Now as a customer would you want your contractor taking those kinds of risks on your home and perhaps biggest investment? 

I make it a point to tell each and every single customer, "Your roof is about a 2 day job. But don't worry because we will not tear off more than we can roof that day. I wouldn't be able to sleep EZ at night knowing the only thing protecting me from a major insurance claim is a piece of felt paper and a tarp. I have pictures of other peoples jobs I have seen in my daily travels with tarps blowing in the wind and exposed wood beneath. What's below that wood? Your insulation, ceiling, hard wood floors, big screen tv etc..." when you tell people this, say it once or thrice and see their reaction and then tell me I am wrong. 

The bottom line is I am selling piece of mind.


Now I know what you are going to say, it's what you guys always say, the arguments never change. "We can do it, some can't but we can." You're also going to say, "that's just marketing bs hype, we real roofers see through that kind of crap." blah blah blah... It's not hype it's true. If I have seen tarps blowing in the wind, that means it can happen. And if it can happen to anyone, it can also happen to us. 


Further more, back to the risk management. I encourage everyone to read Emyth which is about systematizing and organizing your business. As a part of our roles as risk managers, we need to make our business systems fool proof. In other words you shouldn't have to be on the job site for each and ever nail, and if you are well that's a whole other argument I have had many times and would be happy to have again. But regardless, we need to make our business practices as idiot proof as possible. I use this as a valid stance on many contrversial arguments we have. I could literally copy and poste this entire reply into numerous contrversies. My position is the same: manage risk and reduce liability. It sounds bad, but open your mind and think about this statement for a second before you blow up and brag how great your workers are... _We need to make our systems as idiot proof as possible so that the people with the least training and education can accomplish our end goal without mistake. _

In other words you don't need a crew of foremen. You just need one foreman who can think and give direction, at the same time you need a couple technically skilled workers. But you also need unskilled labor. Paying 4 foremen will be double what you'd pay the above described. Now having said that, the unskilled labor is going to be working too. And the foreman can't watch over him always. He and everyone will make mistakes, even YOU will eventually make a mistake.

Going back to that, we will all eventually make mistakes. Take away the human factor from the equation. The wife was bitching at the worker and his mind is pre-occupied. He has a slight flu but rather than stay home, he needs money and comes to work, and isn't really focused. It's damned near the end of the day and he's been working 10 hours in 90+ degree heat and is just ready to go home.

It's human nature. Therefore it is my duty to my financial stability as well as my customers' piece of mind and trust in me, to make sure that these thigns don't happen. Taking them out of the equation is the only way to ensure they do not happen. Risking it and using my bravado and ego to assure the customers that I'm too good to make mistakes and am Jesus Christ himself, the only human being to ever not make a mistake, then well... you are risking it.


I do not agree that a dry in is dry because I have seen numerous fail.



Ok for the record, the other controversies that people like SLy, for example, have seen me debate numerous times... I might as well get them all out in the open now for those of you who are not familiar. 
-When you use torch applied roofing every job you do you are a job closer to burning down a building. 
-Most roofing systems should not be installed below freezing weather.
-This one obviously, a dry in is not dry.
-If you are an owner/operator setup you are better off getting a job and working for someone else.

Oh there's many more. I'm sure they'll come up in good time. These are just the most common arguments I have, off the top of my head.


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## Grumpy

Yance to answer your question. Yes I would tear off in sections. I would stage what materials I could on the roof, and I would have the rest delivered to the ground and I would hoist or hump those materials to the roof as necessary. I very seldom ever get any steep slope materials roof loaded, I guess that's one more controversy I could add to the list above. That's not to say never, but hardly ever. It's safer for the roofer to have the bulk of the material out of his work area until he's ready for them. There is that word again, SAFER. Are you seeing the trend?

You obviously didn't read my first reply. Who said anything abotu a tear off crew loading crew and isntallation crew? They are all the same crew. 


In return to your comment Yance, if you worked for me I'd fire you as well. I make it a point to tell everyone who works for me upfront that they risk being fired for a dry in one time, and if they do it twice they WILL be fired. So the nice thing is that as business owners, we get to choose how our subordinates do things. It's my reputation, it's my insurance and it's my pocket book on the line when they make mistakes. I'm the one losing sleep, not them. I need to ensure that these mistakes are never made in the first place. And again the only way to ensure that is to prohibit risky practices.

And for the record we do very little ez walk 20 square jobs. There are too many guys out there doing those jobs below our cost. Most of our steep slope jobs are medium pitch slightly cut up. And yes most of our steep slope jobs are shingle. We do very little cedar, slate and tile, although have done some, and we only do metal on small jobs. But again very very few of our jobs are simple ez straight forward jobs.



It's ok though, I expected these kinds of responses. It's the same thing every time we have this discussion. I have these arguments with my workers as well.


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## Interloc

Well that was long winded,all i can say in the 30yrs i've been drying in,never have i had a leak,mind you we sometimes get it all covered,but theres days when we dont,and there still dry when we get there in the morning,and if a storm is brewing,simple...dont tear.


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## Grumpy

It was long winded because it needed to be interloc. 


That's good, and that's what most people will say. But I have seen them fail. Did you install them? No most likely not. However I will say the more often you do it, the closer you are to your first failure.

It's like an old sales addage. Every "no" you hear congratulate yourself because you are a step closer to your next "yes". While that's just some hokey chit used to keep sales people motivaated, it's still true. All aspects of business is a number game.

I have no problem tearing off a roof if a storm is brewing for the afternoon hours and the sky looks clear now. Why? Because I'll tear off a section, roof it then move to another section if the weather still looks good. 


Most guys have no problem tearing off and drying in, I don't see the point. And it's one more way for me to appear better to the customer, even if I am not better, perception is reality. Do I think I am better for not drying in? Well maybe "better isn't the right word. I do think I am safer and do think I am more cautious. Those things matter just as much as workmanship. The customer isn't just buying a roof. They aren't just buying a roofing system. They are buying a complete roofing project with as little interuption and intrusion as possible. I like to think that is what I deliver.


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## Interloc

yes i install,i'm a on the job boss,i have salesmen who do the selling.


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## Grumpy

What are you going to do when you can't pound ever nail anymore? When your back starts giving out? When your knees begin to buckle? What will you then do when you can't be there to ensure everything gets done perfect? 

Then you'll begin to think like me.

If you've been roofing 30 years, I'm guessing you're 50-55 years old. Could we agree that you've got 7-15 years left being able to work hands on every day 60 hours a week? I just decided to get off the roof before my body gave out. Most guys are forced off the roof.


I just don't think that people really comprehend the risks they take sometimes.


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## Interloc

I'm not gonna argue with ya,just saying,if ya know wtf your doin drying in is drying in.I mean theres just as much risk of gettin on a roof and fallin,does that mean i wont get on a roof anymore?...No.I have done dry ins on almost every roof i've done and we have never had a problem.


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## English Roofer

We often strip a tiled roof off, felt and batten it and then load the tiles up the next day, i reguard the roof water tight when just the felt and batten is on.
I cant say i have never had a minor leak but 95% of the roofs are water tight, beleive me when i tell you we have alot of rain over here!
Just a question, do you use tyvec breather felt on your pitched tile roofs as underlay?
Cheers
Dave


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## Grumpy

Dave I have seen hot mopped BUR beneath very old tile roofs. Now I typically see a full coverage of grace ice and water shield under slate and tile. Like I said though, we don't do much tile ourselves. I even took that offering off our website last year or so.

Dave thank you for admitting that there is a 5%. It's that 5% that scares me and could, in theory, cost me my business one day.


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## English Roofer

Grumpy said:


> Dave I have seen hot mopped BUR beneath very old tile roofs. Now I typically see a full coverage of grace ice and water shield under slate and tile. Like I said though, we don't do much tile ourselves. I even took that offering off our website last year or so.
> 
> Dave thank you for admitting that there is a 5%. It's that 5% that scares me and could, in theory, cost me my business one day.


There is no more a nervous person than my self , with a roof stripped off and a storm forcast! im as careful as i can be and will strip one side at a time if need be but we also have to make some money, i dont take risks any more as my reputation is on the line!
Even after my guys say its water tight i go over it again ,just for peace of mind! we always have a caulk gun handy for the smallest of tears or punch holes.
There is just no other way of doing it and as i said it it covered in as soon as its possible.
Cheers
Dave


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## Jasonthompson

I love hearing all ur comments. If u all think it can't happen to u are wrong. It can happen to the best of us. Grumpy said it best it's risk vs reward. Sure I could dry in a roof without it leaking, but what happens if that small rain u thought it was gonna be turns in a huge rain storm (3in in 24hrs) with 70-80mph winds the perfect storm then what u think ur felt job is gonna hold that water out! U are kidding yourself. Felt bleeds water after too much rain (15 and 30lbs both). Then u have leaks bye bleeding felt or ur shit blowing off. Then what???? who looks like the rookie, Not the crew who installed the dry in but the owner who has the repore with the customer then word gets around that this company made my roof leak and they did a crappy job and all the other shit that goes with the problem and this is once again risk vs reward. why put yourself in that position.


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## Jasonthompson

yancey yes i have seen felt bleed water which tells me u think felt is water proof not water restitent. if it's water proof then why is it not used like shingles,tile,cedar shake cause it's not water proof!!!(2) I own a skytrac so i can load my roof when i want so everything is ground dropped then when i need it i lift it to the roof and have my guys load it. I don't do many tile job not in high demand here. I do alot of bigger comp jobs (HOA's) that is right. And just by ur response I wouldn't hire u anyways cause u sound like the jack of all trade but the master of none. And those are people who I stay way from. It comes down too risk vs reward, the risk that u put out there has no reward in the end


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## yanceyman1

Oh boy, Grumpy, did you ever open a can of worms on this one!! Your reply got a real laugh at my shop! Let me get this straight... you would tear off a section and then HAVE THE REST OF THE MATERIAL GROUND DROPPED! I'm not sure you read my first thread, but we are talking about a 85 sq.,8/12 tile job! Lets say your super crew, (that tears off, loads AND installs all at the same time), tears off 10 sqs. that morning because you have rain coming that afternoon. That means your crew is going to have to, "hoist or hump", 73 sqs. of concrete tile up a ladder!!:laughing: That is 6650 pcs.of tile. or 63,175 lbs.! At a maximum of 4 pcs. per trip it would take your guys 1662.5 trips just* up* the ladder!!:blink: Not to mention that this same crew had to tear off that same day *AND* base and batt. And remember, this is a 8/12 roof! I did see this happen one time on t.v. But it broke Fred Flintstones back too.:surrender: Come on Grumpy, this is 2010. Come out of the stone age!! Even if you could find someone dumb enough to do this, at 5mins. each way, it would take your guys 277.08 hours to complete this task alone. That's 6.9 WEEKS! That's not taking into consideration the fact that the time would double or triple the farther away from your ground drop you got. Now you want to talk about risk management! How many of your guys would fall off the roof from fatigue or rupture a disk during all this? In the episode I watched, Mr. Slate had to pay Fred workers comp for 2 years for a ruptured disk! So is your way really safer? Are YOU seeing a trend here? As far as your companies reutation... try telling the home owner that the contract he signed in Jan. of 2010 will be completed in Feb. of 2011 and see how long you even have a reputtion to worry about! The one thing we agree on in your reply is that, yes, I wouldn't work for you. You probably couldn't afford my $87,000 salary, but much more than that, I wouldn't work for someone who put his *reputation* ahead of the well being of my men. Any owner who would have his men tear off, load AND install is one of those guys who also piece work his guys to death. Let me guess, you pay your guys around $15 a sq. to shingle, right? ALL of my men are paid by the hour. Top journeymen/foremen start at $29.50, have health care, paid holidays and yearly production bonuses! How?, you might ask? IF you had read my first thread, you would know that I work for the best company in California. Family owned and operated since 1895! Last year we had 337 finished contracts, with contract total pricing of $7,066,000. My men work here because we take VERY good care of them. We hire the best, to stay the best. That is how we can afford to pay them the way we do. If you treat your men like gold, they will treat the company like gold. But if you treat your men like replacable ***** they will... well you get the point.
I've rambled on enough. But just one more thing before I go, Grumpy, do you think concrete tile is waterproof? If you said, "yes" You are 100% WRONG! Ask your local tile rep., install advisor or any 2nd year apprentice. If you answered ,"no", then how can you not dry in your tile jobs so they are waterproof? When you get a chance, read my reply on ,"why leave your roof open?" Bye for now... :clap:


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## Slyfox

LoL' you have that speech saved on in your computer Grumpy?

As a foremen in the 80's and early 90's I had 2 dry-ins leak.
One cost my boss $40.00 to replace some drop ceiling tiles in a half bath, he replaced all even tho only one had a half dollar size stain because the others had faded enough that the one new section would have been an eyesore.
(My right hand roofer forgot to caulk around the plumbing stack)
The second leak cost my boss $200.00 to dry out the in door/out door carpet on the enclosed porch and have it cleaned.
(Some one stepped on the ridge that was already slotted for ridge vent)

"Both problems were my fault because I failed to see/catch these errors"

Since going self employed in 1994 I have had -0- leaks on tie-ins.
That's including when I was running three crews of employees & a couple sub crews and I was not working on the roofs other than with inspections & supervision.
I am a one crew company now and working both the roofs and everything else, but, that's temporary.

I'm not sure what my percentage ratio would be, I do have records of how many re-roofs I have done since 1994, I do not have records for how many I did as a foremen.
I'm thinking it's safe to say my percentage would be less than 5% tho.

Just so you guys don't think I'm on some ego/denial trip here or have just had my feelings hurt and am making things up as I go, I'm not that type of person.
I am not the best roofer I know.
I am not the best roofing contractor I know.
I do believe I am as good as any and better than most.

I actually keep a list of other roofing companies name and numbers with me and when something comes up that I can't handle or simply am not interested in, I will and have recommended other roofers to home owners.
I'd rather lose a job in good standings than start something I can't handle and lose it to the competition anyhow.


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## yanceyman1

Jason, Ive torn off jobs that have had 30 lb felt on them for 30 plus years, with water running down that same underlayment for the same amount of years. Never leaked until the felt finally burned out. Tell me *that* felt wasn't waterproof. Performed better than most 3 tab comp roofs. And you keep harping on ,"risk vs rewards", that's b.s.! Yes, I take risks. But the owner of this company knows that. He also knows that I brought in over 7 million dollars last year. Did we have some ceiling damage, yes. I think the total for the year was 8 thousand and change. Did our reputation take a hit? Not one bit. Why? Because real roofing companies have liability insurance. What better word of mouth advertising can you get then someone telling their family that your company had a crew there within hours to take care of the problem. I know, I know, you are going to say that it is better to not have the problem. But if you asked the owner of this company if he would rather bring in, say 1 million dollars and take no risk or 7 and take a few chances, what do you think he would say? R I G H T !! And about your skytrac... I suppose you make your guys load their own tile too, right? If so, read my last thread. After you do, let me know if you can afford my $87,000 salary, (don't forget company truck, gas card and cell phone), and I'll come on over to where your at and show you how to make some real money roofing. One more thing, as far as reputation, ask anyone in the industry from California, "who's the best roofing contractor in northern california?" Only one name will come up consistantly. Don't believe me?,ask around, tell me what you hear.


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## yanceyman1

:thumbup:Slyfox, you are the kind of roofer this great industry was built on! I'll bet that even when you are sore and tired, if a family member or freind called you in the middle of the night with a bad roof leak, your the kind of guy that would get up and help. You probably bleed mastic when your cut!!:laughing: Wish there was more like you around. Give me some old Bad Company music, sunshine, a good nail gun and some plywood in front of me and I'm happy as can be.


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## Slyfox

Jasonthompson said:


> yancey yes i have seen felt bleed water which tells me u think felt is water proof not water restitent. if it's water proof then why is it not used like shingles,tile,cedar shake cause it's not water proof!!!(2) I own a skytrac so i can load my roof when i want so everything is ground dropped then when i need it i lift it to the roof and have my guys load it. I don't do many tile job not in high demand here. I do alot of bigger comp jobs (HOA's) that is right. And just by ur response I wouldn't hire u anyways cause u sound like the jack of all trade but the master of none. And those are people who I stay way from. It comes down too risk vs reward, the risk that u put out there has no reward in the end


I have no proof of this, I tried searching for such a test and can't find it, but, they did test water penetrating #15 pound felt, it set there "ponding water" a really longtime before it did so.

Underlayments are not designed with protection against the sun, so they only temporarily hold out the weather when left exposed.

Underlayments are not just felt paper nailed/stapled to the roof sheathing.
Underlayments are #15,#30, Synthetic, organic and other types felt paper style products that are fastened with nails, mopped on, torched on, self adhered, glued down, etc.
Plus you have the use of metals like eave flashing/drip edge etc.


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## Jasonthompson

hey slyfox u just said it right there underlayments are only temporarily hold out weather when left exposed


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## Jasonthompson

yancey who do u work for cause i used to work for DRI in cali for awhile and they were the 2nd biggest roofing co in cali a 100 million co. but now this is starting to sound like a pissing match so lets stay on the subject. Cause it's not gonna get us anywhere.


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## Jasonthompson

plus there is noway in hell felt #15 or #30 will hold up better than 3-tab or otherwise we just install felt. how can oil and paper hold out water better than asphalt and fiberglass that just don't make sense


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## Grumpy

Slyfox said:


> LoL' you have that speech saved on in your computer Grumpy?


No Sly but I do now since I have been writing it so frequently over the last few weeks and have written it maybe a dozen times over the last 8 or so years since I've been coming to these forums. It applies to so many threads though doesn't it? I'll probably reread it one day and make it a little more comprehensive. There were alot of scattered random thoughts going on. 

But I believe these random thoughts. We have to make our companies as idiot proof as possible. Remove the thought, remove the error potential. At McDonalds the fry cook doesn't need to know how long to cook the fries for, he just presses a single button when he drops the fries and then it beeps when the fries are ready. No thought, no error. No matter how much respect and regard we have for our employees, I want to prevent mistakes before they happen, they are human and will EVENTUALLY make a mistake. I do NOT want to make their jobs easier. They get paid well to do the job the way I want it done... cautious and safe. 

Those two repairs from leaks cost your boss $240, but could have just as easily cost thousands. What if they had a mona lisa that got dripped on? That's the point I am trying to make. Nothing is guaranteed. See if your boss had the policy that I do, the roofs wouldn't have leaked. It couldn't leak, it'd be finished product. Good for him that they were only minor. We've got enough problems in this biz. 

I don't think anyone can disagree that dryins will leak if not properly installed. That's the point, eventually someone will forget something. Forget one bead of caulk, forget one button cap, get caught in a freak storm, it's game over. Yes it's human error, but who is installing that felt? Humans.


Sly, of all people posting here in this thread, you may not agree, but I think by now you understand why I believe it. You've read enough of these similiar threads. Correct? I mean, I don't know how else to say it. 


Yancy, I am not going to argue with you. You won't be laughing when your felt roof leaks, and eventually it will leak. If I lose the job for being too expensive so be it, I'll let someone else have the failure. Maybe it doesn't fail, good for you/them. But with my luck, if one thing in life I have learned, when I take chances; I lose. Penny wise, dollar foolish. Maybe you have better luck than I do. I just don't take chances anymore.


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## Jasonthompson

Grumpy that's how I feel also, just like u said what if it leaked on a mona lisa or something of great value. Then what? most people only have a 1 million policy, u max it out then they cancel u and then try to get insurance at a good rate.


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## BamBamm5144

I understand where Grumpy comes from. Do I believe his way is the best way to do it? No. Does it work for him and is he most comfortable that way? Yes. Does it matter what his employees think? After all, he is the one who signs the paychecks. If they dont like it, they can find a new job. After all, Mcdonalds is always hiring.

Yancey (which is funny because thats what I call the guys when they are complaining) what is the deal with mentioning your 87000 dollar salary in every post? Quite frankly, I dont think anyone cares. Are you truly that valuable? 

"ALL of my men are paid by the hour. Top journeymen/foremen start at $29.50, have health care, paid holidays and yearly production bonuses! How?, you might ask? *IF you had read my first thread, you would know that I work for the best company in California.* Family owned and operated since 1895! Last year we had 337 finished contracts, with contract total pricing of $7,066,000. My men work here because we take VERY good care of them."

So are they your men, or your bosses men? Not trying to start arguments but your posts contradict themselves. If you WORK for them, why do you care that they made 7 million dollar last year? Its not your business.

Anyways, I also agree that times have changed and we need to take care of our bodies. There is no point in carrying bundles up a ladder anymore. Its time consuming and harmful to the body.


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## Grumpy

Who carries bundles? With ladder-vators and automated hoists nobody should be carrying anything up a ladder. Infact that's against OSHA rules. It's those two items that allow me to get the materials ground staged on most jobs and not lose any production. Another controversy we can discuss at will. Move it to the roof vs move it from side to side around the roof.


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## Slyfox

Grumpy, I understood your opinion/standings on this matter right from the first time we had this discussion.

I agree with you when you say you simply will not allow your guys to do it,
most roofers I know won't.

I agree that there is added risk to it, especially when you have several crews doing it, in some cases several crews at the same time.

But, here I am again discussing the matter with you, why, because you can/will not see the other side of the coin.
Doe's your opinion bother me, no, if it was not for a death in my family and the weather I would have been working on a roof this past week instead of doing repairs & estimates and probably would not have posted in this discussion because I already knew your responses from the last discussion.

Manufacturers list a time frame in which their materials will hold up against the weather while exposed.

Contractors give examples of having structures set with underlayments exposed for both short and long term time frames with minimal problems.

Manufacturers and Contractors recommend a good underlayment in case of storm damage, if the roof loses some shingles, tiles, slate, etc., the underlayment will hold out the weather until the roof can be repaired.

I know some roofers in here and a couple in my area that say "claim" they have never had a roof leak or wind damage on their roofs.
I on the other hand am human like you mentioned, thus am subject to human error.
I have only had two leaks while the underlayment was left exposed, but,
I have had dozens of leaks after the roof was completed.
I actually figured the percentage ratio for how many times it was our "the roofers" fault back in 99' and it was a little over 3%, which means 97% of the leaks occurred because of something the home owners themselves or another contractor they hired to do work after the roof was on did or did not do.
That still leaves 3% of the leaks occurring because I or one of my roofers goofed, which means I have a higher risk factor of damaging Mona Lisa with a completed roof than with an exposed dry-in.


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## Grumpy

Sly I do see the other side of the coin and I have conceeded many times in the past, as well as this post, a dry in can be made dry with much effort and care. I fail to see the benefit to me or the customer for that extra care and extra effort when I actually find it easier and safer to tear off and roof in sections. This way everything is complete daily. 

I have seen multiple dry-ins catastrophically fail simply in my random daily travels throughout my roofing career, therefore I know there is the potential for failure. You yourself admitted to having failures, although minor, with dry-ins in the past. I don't want "minimal problems", I want NO problems. I have too many problems already. I am a "worrier" it's what I do, sometimes I think it's all I do. I need less things in my head to worry about, not more. 

The difference between the roof leaking while I am on the job and after completion is who's insurane pays for the damaged mona lisa. If I am on the job it's my insurance. If the job is complete it's the building owner's insurance. 


I tend to go against the grain with many things, I try hard not to fall into whats easier and faster. I try damned hard to maintain my levels of standards although there are forces constantly tempting me to break my standards. Like you and everyone else, my views and opinions have been formed by my life's experiences. Maybe my extreme caution is a character flaw or maybe it's a character trait.


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## English Roofer

Guys i think we have come to the the 'Is the glass half full or half empty' stage, I am a optimist so i would take the 5% risk of the roof leaking and damaging that Mona Lisa where Grumpy is a pesimist and would take the other view!
Thats not to say eiither of us is right or wrong we just have different views and this is a forum where different views are expressed!
Great post and great forum! keep them comming!
Cheers
Dave:thumbup:


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## Slyfox

Grumpy said:


> Sly I do see the other side of the coin and I have conceeded many times in the past, as well as this post, a dry in can be made dry with much effort and care. I fail to see the benefit to me or the customer for that extra care and extra effort when I actually find it easier and safer to tear off and roof in sections. This way everything is complete daily.
> 
> I have seen multiple dry-ins catastrophically fail simply in my random daily travels throughout my roofing career, therefore I know there is the potential for failure. You yourself admitted to having failures, although minor, with dry-ins in the past. I don't want "minimal problems", I want NO problems. I have too many problems already. I am a "worrier" it's what I do, sometimes I think it's all I do. I need less things in my head to worry about, not more.
> 
> The difference between the roof leaking while I am on the job and after completion is who's insurane pays for the damaged mona lisa. If I am on the job it's my insurance. If the job is complete it's the building owner's insurance.
> 
> 
> I tend to go against the grain with many things, I try hard not to fall into whats easier and faster. I try damned hard to maintain my levels of standards although there are forces constantly tempting me to break my standards. Like you and everyone else, my views and opinions have been formed by my life's experiences. Maybe my extreme caution is a character flaw or maybe it's a character trait.


Grumpy, you may not realize it, but, you just ended the one and only problem I had with your past postings on this subject when you said
(a dry in can be made dry with much effort and care).
I was never trying to argue the point that you should do things the way I do.
I did not mean to make it sound like is if there was -0- risk involved, there's risk in all aspects of the business.
I simply didn't want you telling me it can't be do done.

Edited to be a little more clear on my above portion of this post:
In our first conversation on this subject you did end up saying that dry-ins could be made to hold up temporarily, but, than you ended that post with (I do not believe dry-ins to be dry), and than your first post in this conversation says (I do not beelive that dry-ins are dry).
If you had said you don't believe in leaving underlayments exposed due to the added risk or something to that effect,
I probably would have still joined the conversation but I would have directed my comments to the guy who started this post rather than you,
because I have no problem with agreeing to disagree which is what it comes down to with You and I.
You operate like this, I operate like that, it's all good so long as we are both doing what we believe is best for us, our employees and customers.


I have no problem with you not leaving underlayments exposed, I actually respect the fact that you hold strong to your way of doing things, I'm the same type of person, you work for me, you do it my way or not at all.


(English Roofer hit the nail square on the head,
Guys i think we have come to the the 'Is the glass half full or half empty' stage, I am a optimist so i would take the 5% risk of the roof leaking and damaging that Mona Lisa where Grumpy is a pesimist and would take the other view!
Thats not to say eiither of us is right or wrong we just have different views and this is a forum where different views are expressed!
Great post and great forum! keep them comming!
Cheers
Dave:thumbup


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## Grumpy

I tend to be very black and white, Sly. Sometimes you have to infer the gray area.  You'll probably still hear/read me in the future saying that "A Dry in is not Dry." I understand your objection however. 

I hate being a pesimest, but alas, it is who I am.  Didn't you notice the name?


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## yanceyman1

BamBamm5144 said:


> Yancey (which is funny because thats what I call the guys when they are complaining) what is the deal with mentioning your 87000 dollar salary in every post? Quite frankly, I dont think anyone cares. Are you truly that valuable?
> "ALL of my men are paid by the hour. Top journeymen/foremen start at $29.50, have health care, paid holidays and yearly production bonuses! How?, you might ask? *IF you had read my first thread, you would know that I work for the best company in California.* Family owned and operated since 1895! Last year we had 337 finished contracts, with contract total pricing of $7,066,000. My men work here because we take VERY good care of them."
> So are they your men, or your bosses men? Not trying to start arguments but your posts contradict themselves. If you WORK for them, why do you care that they made 7 million dollar last year? Its not your business.


You think MY name is funny, *BAMBAMM.:laughing:* Anyway, IF you had bothered to read my posts, you would see that I only mentioned my salary in one post. The only other time it was on here was in reference to the previous post. But to answer your first question, "are you truly that valuable?", that has got to be the dumbest question anyone has ever asked me. Hell yes, I'm that valuable. I would say the same if I were being paid $100,000. Wouldn't you? I've been here 11 years and as the my division's bottom line has grown, so has my salary. So the real question should be, "Do I earn my salary?" My boss seems to think so. And quite frankly he is the only one I need to care. As for the second question, as a manager of a division with in a company, I consider all the men who work under me to be, "my men". Any good manager would see it that way. And as far as why I care about my companies bottom line, read my answer to question #1. When you say it's not my company, your dead wrong! See, I love my job. I love the roofing industry and thank God everyday that he blessed me with the talent to get paid at what I love to do. Did this all fall in my lap one day? NO. I have been doing this for 27 years. Yes, I was lucky to have landed a job with such a great company. So, yes, it IS my company. I give them loyalty, reliability, respect and hard work. And I get the same in return. I can only hope that someday you too can love what you do as much as I do. Because from the sound of your post you don't give your company much respect or loyalty. I got that from the, "it's not your company", crack. Or if your a business owner, your men must not respect you much. Why else would you make a remark like that. If that is the case, try treating them better. If your an employer or an employee, its all the same, you get out of a business relationship what you put into it. Good luck and God bless.


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## Grumpy

I do agree with Yance that any employee should love the comapnyt hey work for as if it was there own or else find another company to work for. Well Yance didn't say that, but I am paraphrasing alot.  I'd love to have more employees that truly cared about the company.


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## yanceyman1

Well Grumpy, I guess we do see eye to eye on at least one subject!:thumbup: And I got to tell you, you sound alot like most of the really great journeyman I've worked with over the years. I know we didn't start off on the right foot and for that I apoligize. I can be a real a*#h&%e sometimes.
So until we talk again... May a your knee pads always be comfortable, your compressior always start on the first pull and your jobs always cost-out at 8% profit!


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## 4 seasons

A worker that is truly passionate about someone elses company is hard to find. I myself found that once I worked for myself, the length of the day no longer seemed to matter, and I also worked harder than I ever had before. It is just plain and simple that most guys only work for their paycheck and are just staring at the clock all day. I have realized this, and it has made me appreciate the hardworkers that are out there. For that those guys are compensated!!!


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## Slyfox

4 seasons said:


> A worker that is truly passionate about someone elses company is hard to find. I myself found that once I worked for myself, the length of the day no longer seemed to matter, and I also worked harder than I ever had before. It is just plain and simple that most guys only work for their paycheck and are just staring at the clock all day. I have realized this, and it has made me appreciate the hardworkers that are out there. For that those guys are compensated!!!


Your right, most workers are simply wanting to put their time in and get home or off to after hour projects.
I was always a company man, meaning when I worked for Simon Roofing I worked for them period.
My after work projects were either non roofing related or roof related for Family or myself.
As foremen, the guys/gals working under me were my workers,
that was the same when I was a supervisor.


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## Jasonthompson

Hey slyfox do u still work for simon, I worked for them also


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## Slyfox

Jasonthompson said:


> Hey slyfox do u still work for simon, I worked for them also


No, I quit in mid 1991.
I started in their Youngstown, Ohio office and than relocated to their Tampa, Florida office but didn't last long down there.
Long story short, they promised NO more out of state travel once I moved to Florida and I was there three days and they sent me Texas. Lol.


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## Grumpy

I'm not against a guy who's in it for a pay check, so long as they don't bring any drama. If they show up on time, follow the rules, do what I want the way I want and don't milk it out... What more can I ask? They've earned their check.

However beign a company man and truly caring about the success of the company, you're lucky to have those kinds of guys. I've only ever found one, and made the mistake of promoting him to his lvel of incompetence. We all have that level though the level is different for everyone.


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## Jasonthompson

what a pain in the ass it was to work for them sending me all over the place worked out for there los angeles office quit there after they wouldn't pay my travel expenses from one trip


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## Slyfox

Jasonthompson said:


> what a pain in the ass it was to work for them sending me all over the place worked out for there los angeles office quit there after they wouldn't pay my travel expenses from one trip


I went to work for them in 86/87' and they had one office/shop on the south side of Youngstown with 75 employees (I believe it was), now they have offices/shops all across the country.
The two main guys Jamie and Alex Simon are straight up tell it like it is kinda people that you can respect even in argumentative times but they have a hole bunch of rough around the edges kinda people running the company with them.
The companies been family owned since the early 1900's.

The first time I ever personally seen a shingle roofer install 30 plus squares of shingles in one 12 hour work day was on a job I did for Simons in Plainview, Texas.
I was to say the least not impressed, being that fastener placement and shingle uniformity were excused for the sake of production.
Not that the shingle courses or nails ran outrageously wild, they were just far less of quality compared to the guys who only did 20 to 25 squares in the same time frame.
They did not do much shingle work when I was there, the Plainview, Texas job was the only full shingle roof I remember.


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## Jasonthompson

Ya they are all over the country. I did alot of work for them, but they treat there people like shit and don't care much for them. I did any shingle jobs for them I just did commerical repairs for them all over the place. But now I'm so glad not to be working for them anymore. Thank god!!!


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## ricaroofers

I am interested with grumpy comment about using tarp to our roof to protect it from bad weather. Of course we all know that roof are not meant to last a lifetime. Leaks are our main enemy, but if there are ways to prevent them from attacking our roofs earlier then so much better. Roofing Companies


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## Slyfox

ricaroofers said:


> It is just a roofing style for some reasons, the owner could claim some insurance for some kind of leaking in their roof just because of some part of errors. Anyway, the fault is on the same party as well.


Not sure what you mean by your post.


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## yanceyman1

i don't understand???


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## Nick Tomich

We never tear off more than we can chew but we typicaly show up and have it done in one day. We did a 55 sq roof on new years eve, stripped, ice and watered papered shingled cleaned up and gone. started at 7 left at 5. 7 guys tear off 3 1/2 shingling.


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## ronbryanroofing

Unless its a baby we tear off and dry in and go home... we do usually run drip edge all edges, bitch up around the chimneys and also poop pipes with the new boots on the pipes. Haven't used felt in years, sky blue Deck Armour. So pretty. On those low pitch (below 6/12) we double the exposure of the pretty blue paper and no issues. On the steeper non walkables we put on the first four courses and brackets and planks and the next day is all roof no set up just roofing and details (flashing, ridge venting ect.). 
For those who are worried the HO may claim damage from damage not done by the leaking dry in you didn't do your job, or your Salesman didn't. Questions are key... Why are you deciding to do your roof now? Are you having any leaks? Can I see the damage? It's hard to see through shingles for leak damage so the more you (HO) can help me the better we are to finding surprises. Ect ect ect


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## Slyfox

ronbryanroofing said:


> Unless its a baby we tear off and dry in and go home... we do usually run drip edge all edges, bitch up around the chimneys and also poop pipes with the new boots on the pipes. Haven't used felt in years, sky blue Deck Armour. So pretty. On those low pitch (below 6/12) we double the exposure of the pretty blue paper and no issues. On the steeper non walkables we put on the first four courses and brackets and planks and the next day is all roof no set up just roofing and details (flashing, ridge venting ect.).
> For those who are worried the HO may claim damage from damage not done by the leaking dry in you didn't do your job, or your Salesman didn't. Questions are key... Why are you deciding to do your roof now? Are you having any leaks? Can I see the damage? It's hard to see through shingles for leak damage so the more you (HO) can help me the better we are to finding surprises. Ect ect ect


I'm still not sold on installing an underlayment that will last 50-60 years under a shingle roof that will last 20-30.
On a 50 yr/life time shingle install I could see pushing for it, but not on the average 25/30 yr shingle.


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## Nick Tomich

Im with you sly, for the amount of money that armor is? you can double the felt and still cost half the amount. Or even ice and water the whole roof!


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## gtp1003

Personally the rule i was taught was never tear off what you can not shingle because your asking for trouble. my 2 cents


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## Bracciali

*re:*

I am asking this question as a homeowner ready to have my roof deck spray foamed (assuming I can get the bloody price at a reasonable level). All the spf contractors here (Hattiesburg, MS) recommend open cell in case there is a water leak (Icynene dealers obviously since that's all they make). From the research I've done the forums seem to be divided. One manufacturer I talked to said they recommended closed cell because you'd still eventually see the water leak anyway as it would migrate to the 1st decking joint and eventually find it's way along the rafter and down into the attic. This seems to be flawed logic to me. If the closed cell is completely sealed to the side of the rafter (after all we are statically sealing the attic area in), how would water get past it without 1st rotting out the rafter. The water issue to me is how quickly can you detect and repair.


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## Grumpy

Bracciali said:


> I am asking this question as a homeowner ready to have my roof deck spray foamed (assuming I can get the bloody price at a reasonable level). All the spf contractors here (Hattiesburg, MS) recommend open cell in case there is a water leak (Icynene dealers obviously since that's all they make). From the research I've done the forums seem to be divided. One manufacturer I talked to said they recommended closed cell because you'd still eventually see the water leak anyway as it would migrate to the 1st decking joint and eventually find it's way along the rafter and down into the attic. This seems to be flawed logic to me. If the closed cell is completely sealed to the side of the rafter (after all we are statically sealing the attic area in), how would water get past it without 1st rotting out the rafter. The water issue to me is how quickly can you detect and repair.


 You get what you pay for.

I recommend starting a new thread.


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## SinglePlyGuy

This was an interesting thread....:whistling:


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## roof-lover

Why would you leave your roof open?

because the government knows how to run your business better than you do.

In florida, roofs have to be completely torn off to the decking, renailed with 8d ringshank nails and felted in completely.
You must wait on the inspector to get there before you are allowed to install your roofing. You have no idea when the inspector is getting there.
He could be early or he could be late but you better be ready either way with a million new fasteners in the sheeting and a million cap nails in the felt. The government doesnt care if a storm is coming. They dont care about the insides of your customers homes, they dont care about the incredible increased cost of your business.

All those of you who paper and shingle as you go... those days will be ending soon. they will be coming for your state soon. You think they are going to stop with florida? You give government a lil power and then they take it ALL. They are making up new rules every month. 
You voted for it!!


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## Grumpy

Several municipalities around here are beginning to require ice shield inspections. Alot of time the inspector is late and we take photographs showing the ice shield was installed and that satisfies them. You ever hear my story about 911 and the WTB and who I was arguing with and about what while the towers were collapsing? Funny how I will remember that argument my entire life when in the grand scheme of things it was meaningless. 

stupid dump inspector was something like 2 hours late for his ice shield inspection, showed up with an attitude and told us to rip off the roof so he could see the ice shield. I told him I wasn't going to tell the guys that since he was 2 hours late I wasn't paying the guys to stand around waiting. Then encouraged him to go tell the guys and see if they didn't throw their hammers at him (we were still hand nailing at that time). He decided to accept the photographs. 

At that time I began to avoid the cities who required the ice shield inspections, but it just got to the point that it'd be impossible but most of the cities and villages around here requiring it are very flexible with the photographs.


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## RemStar

Grump can you please direct me to a post where you debated this topic:
"If you are an owner/operator setup you are better off getting a job"

Anyone who is a owner is a operator to some degree, I am just intrested to see what you said about the topic.


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## Grumpy

WTF do skylights have anything to do with this post? Stop spamming damnit!


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## stevie d

sometimes i leave it open 1 hour just long enough for a beer run never over night


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## gtp1003

Would never asking for problems. tear of what you can put back on the same day or well the crew has mental issues flet blows away unless the orange tackers are used and that will not protect a rain storm, and then drywall is now your baby. Lets just say i learned the hard way years ago.


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## yanceyman1

gtp1003 said:


> Would never asking for problems. tear of what you can put back on the same day or well the crew has mental issues flet blows away unless the orange tackers are used and that will not protect a rain storm, and then drywall is now your baby. Lets just say i learned the hard way years ago.


:thumbdown:
gtp1003, Are you serious!? Apparently you did not bother to even read all of the threads on this discussion. I don't want to go into a long winded debate over this AGAIN, but this discussion started over multiple leaks in a Sharkskin underlayment on an 85 sq., 8 in 12 tile job with 496 ft. of hips & 512 ft. of valley. Please read ALL of the threads before you comment. If you are a certified journeyman, try and remember that there are apprentices and homeowners that read these and your oppinion could influence them into making a WRONG choice when managing their project.
With that being said, let me point out the many LARGE flaws in your responce. 1. On a job such as this, it is close to impossible to do your "tear-off what I put back method".To many hips and valleys. I'm not sure how much you know about tile, ( NOT MUCH ), But unlike comp, your underlayment MUST be watertight. That means double jacking all protrusions, turning up the walls, ect... As far as blow offs go, I have been applying tile roofs for over 25 yrs. From Sacramento to Monterey and I have NEVER seen felt from a tile roof blow off after the batts have been installed and the tile loaded. I have had multiple tile roofs sit out in the rain, just base and batts, for days at a time and they would be rockn and painting inside. Never had a problem. Is it a risk? For roofers like you ,YES! For myself, none what-so-ever. I have complete confidence in my ability to install the underlayment in a watertight manner.
Hope this helps. If you have any questions on how you to can accomplish this, contact your local State Apprenticeship Program and sign up. Or yopu can allways give me a call. I'll walk you throught it.


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## gtp1003

Re reading an entire post is not my point. I would never leave anything open i could not do regardless of what felt or underlayment. Its my opnion why on earth is it your concern what i think really? Regardless unless ice and water and that illegal to do to cover an entire roof anyway. I made sure my guys did what they could do in a day. Even when i was swinging a hammer 20 years ago. it's my 2 cents i don't care what type of material is being used. its just not good business and i stoped shingling in and would be a journeyman if i cared about the card that means nothing just like a degree, its a piece of paper. I have 20 years under my belt. So i do know a little something about roofing. You guys can do whatever you want thats the way i did not no matter how big the roof was. If you cant put it back on and its long as heck leave a portion open tarp heavy and continue. that's my 2 cents.


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## gtp1003

i spoke to tinner666 and well we both agree its a bad move. No offense grumpy i know you are good at what you do but a roof that big is alot of risk if you get a good downpour. When i had my company there was never a roof left with any type of underlayment. the roof was done in 1 day. the crew i had 110 squares a day clean. Just my thoughts.


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## Grumpy

No offense to me for what? I wouldn't leave my roofs open either.


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## leakfree

I see gtp1003 is bringing his antics over from roofing.com. At least he isn't spamming over here like he does over there.


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## PTROOFING

We usually tear aff what we can get put back on in any given day. However, there are times when we do tear off more than we will be able to get back on, but we have also have been using Titanium UDL-25 PLUS synthetic underlayment instead of 30lb felt and have had opened roofs for 3 straight days of rain with no problems.


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## yanceyman1

gtp1003 said:


> i spoke to tinner666 and well we both agree its a bad move. No offense grumpy i know you are good at what you do but a roof that big is alot of risk if you get a good downpour. When i had my company there was never a roof left with any type of underlayment. the roof was done in 1 day. the crew i had 110 squares a day clean. Just my thoughts.


 gtp1003 and tinner666, I bow:notworthy: to your super, bad-ass crew that could of torn off, based, batted, loaded and laid this 85 sq, 8/12, cut up tile job in 1 DAY!! My company doesn't load their own roofs, but I have 5 of best tile roofers in the industry and could only average 4 sqs. per man, per day of finished product. And that was gunning on the batts AND tile. I would really like to see this done! Because I don't think it can it can be! Wait one minute, I take that back... If you were pulling up to the house to start work and these two guys ran out, one tall and slinder, the other real short. Both dressed in super white suits and the shorter one yells, " Zee truck, boss. Zee truck." THEN and only then could this be possible. Because you are roofing on FANTASY ISLAND!!:lol:


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## yanceyman1

gtp1003 said:


> i spoke to tinner666 and well we both agree its a bad move. No offense grumpy i know you are good at what you do but a roof that big is alot of risk if you get a good downpour. When i had my company there was never a roof left with any type of underlayment. the roof was done in 1 day. the crew i had 110 squares a day clean. Just my thoughts.


 One more question... Exactly how many men are on this super crew of yours? Because to tear off, load and lay 110 sqs in 1 day is amazing!! Let's take a look at those numbers...we'll start with an avg.day of 8 hours. That works out to be 13.75 sqs an hr. with 5 guys on your crew that works out to 2.75 sqs per man per hr. Just laying shingles, believable. Include loading, maybe. Including tear off,:no:.
So let this be a lesson, gtp1003, don't post an arguement, on a site threaded by pros, looked at by pros, talked about by pros and designed for pros, when your thread is...well,... hard to believe.


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