# Good books or advice about techniques for Modbit low-slope roofing?



## bheilig (Jun 14, 2012)

Hi all,

I'm a solar/electrical contractor, the nature of my work means I penetrate roofs with conduits a lot. I've picked up a few things here and there, but I'm not a roofing expert by any means. I just finished reading the Manual of Low-Slope Roofing Systems, and it was pretty useful for principles/fundamentals.

Now I'd really like to read something that is more hands-on. How do I prevent/fix fishmouths or curling? What's the real difference between all these adhesives? What are the common mistakes roofers make? How long will a roof really last, and how can I make it last longer? These types of things.In my area, Modbit (APP/SBS) low-slope roofs are about 90% of what I see, so a focus on the techniques that apply to them would be ideal.

Many thanks for your recommendations!


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

no offence but there is nothing i hate more than another trade coming on to a roof i have installed and poking holes in it without my approval since i am holding the warranty on it. (which you have just voided by the way by making holes) It is a requirement of our warranty that any work of this type be supervised and repaired by our forces only. So please forgive me if i do not help you out here.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

AnyMonkey said:


> no offence but there is nothing i hate more than another trade coming on to a roof i have installed and poking holes in it without my approval since i am holding the warranty on it. (which you have just voided by the way by making holes) It is a requirement of our warranty that any work of this type be supervised and repaired by our forces only. So please forgive me if i do not help you out here.


I agree with this. 

@ OP it honestly might be more cost effective to have a reliable contractor set up to do this kind of work. It really is more then annoying to have someone poke a bunch of holes through your roof then find out later on when it wasn't sealed in right. Then you have the warranty to deal with or lack there of now.


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## bheilig (Jun 14, 2012)

Well, I appreciate the thoughts, but of course I don't expect anyone's warranty to be intact after I punch holes in a roof - once I change it, I own it. I know that. That's a separate problem that we deal with on a separate basis. Sometimes the roofer is willing to come back and handle things, just like you describe, and that's of course my first choice. Far more often, the roofer is long gone, or doesn't want the job for whatever reason, or the warranty is expired anyway.


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## LCG (May 30, 2011)

What are you looking for? It sounds like you are wanting to re seal the entire roof. Or are you just looking for products that will help seal the areas you are working on?

There really isn't much by means of literature that will describe "HOW TO" patch the variuos types of roofing systems. There are allot of sealants, fillers, and coatings that can be applied to the affected areas that will last a very long time.

I would recommend going onto the various websites of whatever system you are working on. Usually the manufacturer will have more specific advice on how to properly patch these areas. 

If it's a mod bit system than go into a mod bit manufacturer's website and they will have the information you are looking for. Same with PVC, TPO, EPDM, Hypalon, etc. The issue with "most" PVC's/Hypalon is that they are a certified product. You as a consumer cannot buy it over the counter and will need to have an installer make the necessary repairs.

With that said there are a hundred different ways to skin the proverbial cat. You can patch these hole's/cuts in EPDM,PVC,TPO with numerous products "short term" until a qualified installer can make it out.

If you have picture of some previous jobs or jobs at hand that need some TLC than post a few pics with an explaination and i'm sure you will recieve some constructive advice, rather than criticism.


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## bheilig (Jun 14, 2012)

Hey LCG, thanks so much for giving it some thought! Although I'd really like to understand as much as I can, what I am doing most often is trying to build a flashing detail around a conduit that penetrates the roof, and terminates in a flange (meaning the hole in the roof has to be about 2-3" wider than the conduit is).

What I have been doing is, filling the hole with flashing cement flush with the existing roof surface, priming the roof surface with asphalt primer, then putting down a 1' square of capsheet with cold-process adhesive, aluminum paint on that, then finally a chemcurb filled with 1-part sealant.

The number one thing I worry about is, am I applying the cold-process adhesive correctly. Sometimes the edges of the capsheet curl up, or fishmouth, or otherwise don't sit down (especially if the capsheet crosses a lap in the existing roof membrane). I don't know if I'm applying too much, too little, not letting it tack enough, if I should wait for it to be warmer, colder, drier, all of the above, or what.

95% of the time, the stuff sits down flat, dries very solid, and I feel good about it. Eveerrry now and then I see a seam or a bump, and I'm not sure how it got there. I probably should just try to hire a roofer to kick it around with me for a couple days.

Anyway, if this rings any bells for you, and you know of any videos or blogs that might be useful, I'm all ears. And thank you again!


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

You might want to have a look at this product its a fleece and bonding agent mixture that needs a catalyst to cure... very similar to fiberglass. it is made especially for SBS application and typically it is used on strange roof protrusion details. its about 300 bucks for a 5 gallon pail and fleece but that will last you for quite a while.

they even have a premixed version with fleece strands mixed in but it is quite expensive

Soprema should have an installation handbook on their site.

http://www.soprema.ca/EN/openfile/1758/Alsan-RS-Tech-Data-Sheet-230-FLASH.aspx

Siplast has a version as well called Parapro


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## LCG (May 30, 2011)

http://chemlink.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55&Itemid=23

Attached is a link to a company called Chemlink. These guys provide the abdolute best sealants and penetration details in the industry. I think they will save you a ton of time and give you the piece of mind you are looking for.

I am positive you can skip the whole cap sheet detail and just use one of their custom curb/filler products and sleep easy. This is how we go about most retrofit penetrations in ModBit. 

Honestly I am not a ModBit guy. We install mostly PVC, some TPO and EPDM and ZERO ModBit. Like you, we repair allot of it. Usually by the time we are called for a repair the roof is not exactly salvagable. We make the necessary short term (1-2yrs) repair and bid for a new single ply. 

There are others on this forum that have extensive knowledge in ModBit. Give it some time and some other guys may show up and give you some advice


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## LCG (May 30, 2011)

AnyMonkey said:


> You might want to have a look at this product its a fleece and bonding agent mixture that needs a catalyst to cure... very similar to fiberglass. it is made especially for SBS application and typically it is used on strange roof protrusion details. its about 300 bucks for a 5 gallon pail and fleece but that will last you for quite a while.
> 
> they even have a premixed version with fleece strands mixed in but it is quite expensive
> 
> ...


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## shazapple (Dec 3, 2010)

Soprema has a repair guide which wouldn't be too bad to look over
http://www.soprema.ca/en/content/172/repair-guide.aspx

Their roofers guide also covers things like the Alsan someone else mentioned.
http://www.soprema.ca/en/content/172/repair-guide.aspx

I'd look into metal flashing of some sort, which would make your installation a bit easier. Thaler has a good selection
http://www.thalermetal.com/products.html


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Metal pitch pan or a chem curb is what I would use. Fill the excess hole with something and put a chem curb on, call it done.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

1985gt said:


> Metal pitch pan or a chem curb is what I would use. Fill the excess hole with something and put a chem curb on, call it done.


 
the problem with pitch pans is that the material in them shrinks over time and eventually they dry out and crack causing the now pooling water to get inside. Most inspectors around here will not allow them unless you use a 2 part epoxy resin. and you still need to cover that with a rubber boot. Also you still have to torch in the pitch pan and I am guessing that he does not have fire insurance which is why he is using the cold adhesives which i am also nt a big fan of.


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## bheilig (Jun 14, 2012)

@LCG, yes, the chemcurb is currently part of our standard flashing detail. I put down the capsheet underneath it because Chemlink's instructions say that their sealant will not bond properly to APP, and that a known-SBS target square is the appropriate fix if you're not 100% sure what kind of modbit you're originally dealing with.

I am also actually trying the liquid flashing thing for the first time on a job right now.. I am using the John Mansville equivalent though (it's called MBR-something). 

I tried the chemcurbs a few times without filling my original hole with flashing cement, and about half the time the sealant very slowly leaked away over the course of about 24 hours. I don't know if that was a good thing (maybe the sealant was just filling in all the gaps in the existing roofing? I sort of doubt it.) but it definitely would scare me to walk away from it again for even one night.

@AnyMonkey, yeah, torches are illegal where I am due to fire regulations. Very curious, why don't you like cold adhesives? When dealing with modbit, is there any alternative to them other than torching?


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

you can fill the bottom of the pitch pan with insulation to stop it leaking through. If that was on a steel deck it would be likely leaking down on to somones product or carpet..... although i still do not like them it is a way to stop that problem. Being torch on guy... I just do not believe that adhesives provide the piece of mind and logetivity that fully bonded systems offer. I like TPO for this reason and hate EPDM for its glue as well.

you can use a heat gun and roller for the things that you seems to be doing... not just any cheap heat gun.... there is one called Leister that we use.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

metal pitch pan, foam pack the inside, and a sloped metal pitch pan lid. problem solved. 

Or just use a chem curb and make sure to put a backing around the hole so the sealant doesn't go in to the structure. 

No need to over think it.

The problem your having with the mod bit is most likely because your using a very small target. I'd use atleast a 18"x18" even for a 2" hole. Make sure to flip it over so the black side is up in the sun for awhile to get the curl out of it. If its really cold and stiff you may have to dope and rag the edges down. Also butter the back side of the mod bit if your not already. Personally I would just use Regular mastic for all of the above. Cold app takes incredibly long to set up and not really worth it on such a small patch job.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

Another problem with the pitch pan is its supposed to be fully soldered once in place if you are doing it correctly or you have to torch the membrane up it like it is a curb. I really think there are better ways to do this. Also using mastic as your bonding agent on the membrane would not be accepted by any manufacturer or inspector to my knowledge so I dont think you should consider that. The idea here is to install your penetrations well enough that if it was to ever be inspected because of an insurance claim or something that the install would be professional and they could eliminate your work from the equation.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

AnyMonkey said:


> Another problem with the pitch pan is its supposed to be fully soldered once in place if you are doing it correctly or you have to torch the membrane up it like it is a curb. I really think there are better ways to do this. Also using mastic as your bonding agent on the membrane would not be accepted by any manufacturer or inspector to my knowledge so I dont think you should consider that. The idea here is to install your penetrations well enough that if it was to ever be inspected because of an insurance claim or something that the install would be professional and they could eliminate your work from the equation.


Uh funny thing we've put on metal pitch pans for 30 or so years and never had a problem with the one seam that is "open" not soldered. The membrane doesn't need to go up the pitch pan, and mastic is perfectly acceptable to target a pitch pan in a couple of layers (base/Modified) for a penetration after the roof has been completed and the penetration was installed years or months later. Funny how since the guy doing this isn't a factory installer that it would need to be warrantied, hence my first post on finding a roofer to do it if it is warrantied. 

I guess if doing things my way makes me unprofessional then so be it, although 30 + years of the company being in business and my 13+ or so years of installer experience and :blink: 3 or so years of estimating/sales not to (mention I was 6 when I put my first roof on) say so other wise. 


Oh yeah and the fact we have done, 1000's of pitch pans this way on a manufacturing plant for those 30+ years are still holding up and the customer still calls on us to this day says a bit of something also. Plus the fact we have never had a manufacturer's rep (GAF, Tamko, Firstone, Mansville and others) Tell us this is the wrong way to do it. 

Bull hell I'm still probably wrong.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

Oooooohhhhh someone does not like to be told hes wrong!

Gonna pull the ol ive been roofing for a thousand years statement out huh?

Ok ok you are the best roofer that ever lived. There is your bruised ego better now?

You are right pitch pans have been used for many years. But it used to be ok to shingle a roof with just eave protection too. Times change and pitch pans much like tar and gravel are on their way out not in.

Quote:

"1000's of pitch pans this way on a manufacturing plant for those 30+ years"

Im wondering why it took you 30 years to do a roof?.. Lol and really 1000's of pitch pans on 1 roof? You must have been in mastic heaven!


Quote:
"mastic is perfectly acceptable to target a pitch pan in a couple of layers (base/Modified) for a penetration after the roof has been completed"


ummmmmm no it isn't. If that statement were true then any idiot with a bucket of gum and a roll of SBS could open up a repair business. Where are you located again? Im sure the roof maintenance in your area is booming!

Quote:

"not to mention I was 6 when i put my first roof on"

Did your 13 years of experience start from that date? Must have been nice to be a journeyman when you were 10.


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## shazapple (Dec 3, 2010)

Pitch pockets are the "flashing of last resort" for me because they require maintenance, and nobody is willing to do it until it fails and leaks (usualy ruining a few square of insulation and roofing as well). Just as easy to install a split flashing or metal sleeve with an EPDM seal.

Pitch pockets full of asphalt is old school and I would never allow it. Elastomeric sealant is better, but again, only a last resort (flashing around I beams or whatnot).


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

shazapple said:


> Pitch pockets are the "flashing of last resort" for me because they require maintenance, and nobody is willing to do it until it fails and leaks (usualy ruining a few square of insulation and roofing as well). Just as easy to install a split flashing or metal sleeve with an EPDM seal.
> 
> Pitch pockets full of asphalt is old school and I would never allow it. Elastomeric sealant is better, but again, only a last resort (flashing around I beams or whatnot).


 
amen brother! why go through all the hasstle of a pitch pan and as you said maintenance of them because the mastic does shrink and they have to be re-filled from time to time when you can just do an Alsan or Parapro detail on it and be done with it forever. The only tools you need are a paint brush and pair of scissors. Or even as you said an aluminum sleeve but then you still have the problem of installing membrane over it and the original poster stated he cant use flame.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

AnyMonkey said:


> Oooooohhhhh someone does not like to be told hes wrong!
> 
> Gonna pull the ol ive been roofing for a thousand years statement out huh?
> 
> ...



Reading is not a strong point for you, we have been on this plant for 30+ years, when you have 1,0000+ squares of roofing it seems like it will never end, plus the fact they put a ammonia pipe through the roof at the rate of about one a week, it adds to a lot of penetrations. 




























sorry all of the ones here are lidded. But yeah 1,000's




> Quote:
> "mastic is perfectly acceptable to target a pitch pan in a couple of layers (base/Modified) for a penetration after the roof has been completed"
> 
> 
> ummmmmm no it isn't. If that statement were true then any idiot with a bucket of gum and a roll of SBS could open up a repair business. Where are you located again? Im sure the roof maintenance in your area is booming!



http://www.arcat.com/details/view_detail.htm?co=gafcom&detail=07550113&coid=38425

Sure it is, how do you think you strip in a penetration on a cold app roof? Drag a torch up there? :laughing:





> "not to mention I was 6 when i put my first roof on"
> 
> Did your 13 years of experience start from that date? Must have been nice to be a journeyman when you were 10.


Well when you grow up in the business you don't really have much of a choice, at least I didn't. But no the last 13 or so years started around 1999. I was not 6 in 1999 so I don't include that in that time frame of experience. Your figures are a bit off, maybe that's why you sell so many roofs, you simply can't put together simple numbers. But hey good luck with your app, I'm sure it will work out well for you.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

man... this is gonna be my last post on this thread...... but i would like to point a few things out here for you..... first of all if i was arguing with someone about the quality of my work i would never show him the three photos you just showed me. Just about every aspect of the installation on these photos is incorrect starting with the soldiering of your membrane laps without at least a cover strip, exsessive bleedout, leads instead of aluminum for stacks and folding them over to save the $20.00 on the cap... the list goes on and on......

now... getting back to the original question on this thread about what this guy should do about his penetrations. And your suggestion to this non-roofer type is to install a gumpan complete with 2 plies of SBS which are installed with mastic (this makes me laugh so hard) and install a custom made pitch pan cap (I am sure hes got a metal department capable of fabricating this). Instead of using a mix it as you use it compound which is completely acceptable (and documented as such) material purpose made for penetrations just like the ones hes talking about. and all he needs to bring with him is a bucket, some scissors and a paint brush. Honestly dude? I mean Honestly???

your Gaf picture makes me laugh... can you please show me on there where it shows MASTIC as the bonding agent for your membrane? In case you are unaware there are products such as Coltac adhesive and such that are made for cold apply applications. I would love for you to find me a manufacturer that would be willing to come on here and tell me that this is what mastic is made for. (sorry still cant stop laughing)

I have a now 22 year old son that i took up on a garage with me once when he was about 5 and i gave him a little bucket with some shingle nails in it and i sat him beside me and had him hand me nails while i was working. Another time when he was about 9 i had him set the T's for me on a shingle roof while i went behind with a nail gun. My son has never claimed to me or anyone else that he actually installed a roof when he was 6 or 9.... he has said however said that he helped me a bit when he was very young.

at any rate, I have told you 100,000 times not to exaggerate.

Also I think it is you that has the problem with math and not me..... you said that you have 13 years experience as in installer and 3 years as an estimator and you started all of this in 1999. I had no idea that i wa arguing with a time traveller. Glad you could come join us from the future. Can you tell me who won the 2015 world series so i can put down a few bucks?

Topic Closed (to me anyways)


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## bheilig (Jun 14, 2012)

Hey gents, 

I really appreciate the time and knowledge you've all put into this thread, it has been a huge help to me. I'm no stranger to disagreements within my own trade.. I think well-sourced debate between experts is probably the most educational thing there is in trade work generally.

If I could just ask one last followup for clarity's sake, when you guys say 'mastic', you're talking about flashing cement, right? This stuff or something like it http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=18058&gclid=CITshdOR47QCFdKd4AodcFUAVw

Many thanks again.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

im not familiar with the product but it looks about right... here is an interesting pdf for sopramastic..... have a look about ten lines down on the left lol. I almost fell off my chair when i read this.

you are right debate is good. when i first started roofing i was a concrete tile roofer and I was put on to the biggest hack crew i ever met. They had a short cut for everything but since i was new i didnt know. as the next couple of years went on and i went out on my own as a sub and i started realizing that the work i was doing did not measure up to other ''good'' roofers and as i saw more i learned more and changed my ways and eventually i had the reputation as one of the more conscientious roofers in town.

two morals to this story.

if you dont know, then you just dont know.

just because you have done things a certain way for a long time. Does not mean you have been doing it right.

where i am from there is a pretty healthy mix of roofers that are part of the roofing association and roofers that are not. I can usually tell within five seconds if the roof i am standing on was installed by a member. Its not that i think that non members are terrible roofers...... they just dont know how bad they are.


ok that was my last post


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

AnyMonkey said:


> man... this is gonna be my last post on this thread...... but i would like to point a few things out here for you..... first of all if i was arguing with someone about the quality of my work i would never show him the three photos you just showed me. Just about every aspect of the installation on these photos is incorrect starting with the soldiering of your membrane laps without at least a cover strip, exsessive bleedout, leads instead of aluminum for stacks and folding them over to save the $20.00 on the cap... the list goes on and on......
> 
> now... getting back to the original question on this thread about what this guy should do about his penetrations. And your suggestion to this non-roofer type is to install a gumpan complete with 2 plies of SBS which are installed with mastic (this makes me laugh so hard) and install a custom made pitch pan cap (I am sure hes got a metal department capable of fabricating this). Instead of using a mix it as you use it compound which is completely acceptable (and documented as such) material purpose made for penetrations just like the ones hes talking about. and all he needs to bring with him is a bucket, some scissors and a paint brush. Honestly dude? I mean Honestly???
> 
> ...


Cover strip on a Hot mod roof? You put aluminum and a cap on a soil stack? Showing your true identity there.

Clearly I'm not worthy of this so I'll leave now, good luck to you and the rest of the people here, but honestly I can't stand idiots like you.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

Yes, I know many people like you who just cant stand to be criticized. I can back up everything I have said here with factual evidence and not just the "because uncle Bob told me it was true so it must be true" or "I have roofed for a thousand years" approach that you have taken. I am not sure why you have to take this to such a personal level but it is what it is. People often tend to resort to insults when they have lost an arguement and have nothing else worthwhile to say.

Clearly if you do not understand the reasons for *not* soldiering your laps then you cannot possibly understand why a cover strip would be needed.

ummmmm yes this is 2013 and not 1984 and leads are not alllowed to be used on SBS roofs in our area. And yes believe it or not you can actually buy caps for these things....sigh.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

One last post and I'm done.



AnyMonkey said:


> Yes, I know many people like you who just cant stand to be criticized. I can back up everything I have said here with factual evidence and not just the "because uncle Bob told me it was true so it must be true" or "I have roofed for a thousand years" approach that you have taken. I am not sure why you have to take this to such a personal level but it is what it is. People often tend to resort to insults when they have lost an arguement and have nothing else worthwhile to say.


Being criticized is one thing, you clearly do not take kindly to it either.
I have posted factual evidence, unlike you who has just stated that that is the way it is.



AnyMonkey said:


> Clearly if you do not understand the reasons for *not* soldiering your laps then you cannot possibly understand why a cover strip would be needed.


The laps are mopped, not "soldered" and I've never seen coverstrip on a modified roof, maybe you could explain that one. All of the above practices are manufacture acceptable, other wise the roof would not have been issued a warranty.



AnyMonkey said:


> ummmmm yes this is 2013 and not 1984 and leads are not alllowed to be used on SBS roofs in our area. And yes believe it or not you can actually buy caps for these things....sigh.


*Your Area* you know nothing of my area, and leads are perfectly acceptable here, I trust leads more then thin aluminum. What exactly is the point of putting a cap on a sewer vent again?

Like I said I'm done here, it's people like you who make these forums less and less enjoyable, it is one thing to explain/show/learn from one another, being a constant prick is another. If you read through this forum you will see where many people have disagreements, but do not come off as such a arrogant prick as your self. Just because you do something one way doesn't make every other way wrong, and the last I knew you were not the person signing off on any warranty for a roof we have installed at any point in time. 

As far as taking it personally, I have only done such since you decided to make it personal. 

Anyway good day to you as I'm over this since clearly you can not post actual references. Only what you believe is true. :thumbup:


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

1985gt said:


> One last post and I'm done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you mean like the pdf i posted saying that mastic is not to be used as a pitch pan filler? You seriously crack me up!!!! (still laughing about the mastic SBS application btw)

Ken


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## Billy Luttrell (May 3, 2010)

Not to get involved in an internet dispute but, everything 1985 explained is the norm in my area. I actually fixed a leak on a TPO roof last week where the original roofer used tpo boot, zip tie and gobs of silicone on some conduit lines. I tore all that chit out and installed a pitch pan, problem solved.

Then again, in a world of ever changing and evolving single ply's....I still prefer my torch and my kettle over my rollers, probes, and heat welders.

Toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe.

I am not going to take sides, because whatever works best for your company in your areas is what you should stick with, but 1985 has always come off as knowledgeable and willing to help others who did not come off as rude or arrogant...

I might still be a tad bit pissed at him for pointing out a tiny fish mouth on one of my pics that I did not catch, that no one else probably would have caught either...dirty rotten summamab^(*&^h.....


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

Billy Luttrell said:


> Not to get involved in an internet dispute but, *everything* 1985 explained is the norm in my area. I actually fixed a leak on a TPO roof last week where the original roofer used tpo boot, zip tie and gobs of silicone on some conduit lines. I tore all that chit out and installed a pitch pan, problem solved.


Just so I understand your post..... so it would be normal to you to install a 2 ply SBS membrane with mastic?

I understand that pitch pans are still widely in use but if you are giving advice to a non roofer about how to install a penetration detail would you not pick a method that was a little less technical?

hes telling this guy to install a pitch pan with a custom fabricated pitch pan cap and 2 ply sbs applied with mastic. There is nothing *normal* about this application.


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## Billy Luttrell (May 3, 2010)

missed that part about sbs with mastic, so no...but....I have torn off a lot of roofs like that here that only failed due to age, for what its worth.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

Billy Luttrell said:


> missed that part about sbs with mastic, so no...but....I have torn off a lot of roofs like that here that only failed due to age, for what its worth.


 
cheers for that


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

I do want to be perfectly clear about this point because 1985 did bring it up. At no point up until 1985 had to puff out his chest and proclaim his godlyhood as a roofer did i ever say anything belligerant. The first poster simply asked a question and i simply did not agree with 1985s answer and i gave clear professional reasons to that effect. As well as proposed a superior cleaner more easily learned and installed method. 1985 you took it upon yourself to get your back up a wall. You need to grow up... take a little criticism with a grain of salt and forget thinking that you are the only person in this room with some experience. I too have roofed/estimated for longer than I care to remember, something to the effect of 28 years in total and I am sure there are many people here who have roofed longer than me and i know for a fact that some of them... maybe even you are more knowledgable. but in this instance i believe you to be wrong. i do not want this guy up on a roof installing gumpans and i sure as heck dont want him installing them with sbs that has been mastic'd in. People have a right to have a good roof when they pay for it and they sure as heck dont deserve to have some hack on the roof wrecking it for them.

this is my for real last post on this thread.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

AnyMonkey said:


> I do want to be perfectly clear about this point because 1985 did bring it up. At no point up until 1985 had to puff out his chest and proclaim his godlyhood as a roofer did i ever say anything belligerant. The first poster simply asked a question and i simply did not agree with 1985s answer and i gave clear professional reasons to that effect. As well as proposed a superior cleaner more easily learned and installed method. 1985 you took it upon yourself to get your back up a wall. You need to grow up... take a little criticism with a grain of salt and forget thinking that you are the only person in this room with some experience. I too have roofed/estimated for longer than I care to remember, something to the effect of 28 years in total and I am sure there are many people here who have roofed longer than me and i know for a fact that some of them... maybe even you are more knowledgable. but in this instance i believe you to be wrong. i do not want this guy up on a roof installing gumpans and i sure as heck dont want him installing them with sbs that has been mastic'd in. People have a right to have a good roof when they pay for it and they sure as heck dont deserve to have some hack on the roof wrecking it for them.
> 
> this is my for real last post on this thread.


I'll nit pick this a bit since it has for more or less become a game. 

I gave perfectly good examples of various ways to seal in conduit/footing penetrations. Chem curbs (probably the most reasonable way for this application although I have yet to be convinced of the long term duty of them.) Metal pitch pan while I have never ever said that mastic was a good filler, you seem to think I implied that. Lets focus on the point of striping them in, mastic or cold app, to me mastic is much less a mess and easier to work with let alone holds better initially, and 3 gal buckets are easier to carry 5 gal. Torching them in is simply not feasible for this application nor for us since we parked our torches years ago. Torch down roofs are not all that common here anymore because of the liability I understand they are going strong in other areas. Also mopping targets down in this applications is just plain not going to happen. drag out a kettle for 10 maybe penetrations? And for a one man show? I think not. 

So other then using mastic or cold app, you would have to use some type of chem curb product or something like it. 

Also single ply roofs all pitch pans get filled with pour able sealer, hot roofs at times we have used foam pack and SL-1 with good results, or foam pack and a slope lid pitch pan. 

So now you know.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

1985gt said:


> I'll nit pick this a bit since it has for more or less become a game.
> 
> I gave perfectly good examples of various ways to seal in conduit/footing penetrations. Chem curbs (probably the most reasonable way for this application although I have yet to be convinced of the long term duty of them.) Metal pitch pan while I have never ever said that mastic was a good filler, you seem to think I implied that. Lets focus on the point of striping them in, mastic or cold app, to me mastic is much less a mess and easier to work with let alone holds better initially, and 3 gal buckets are easier to carry 5 gal. Torching them in is simply not feasible for this application nor for us since we parked our torches years ago. Torch down roofs are not all that common here anymore because of the liability I understand they are going strong in other areas. Also mopping targets down in this applications is just plain not going to happen. drag out a kettle for 10 maybe penetrations? And for a one man show? I think not.
> 
> ...


 
And my point is that if we are here as professional roofers then we should be giving advice as such and not encouraging installations that do not meet proper roofing standards. Our association has worked hard to try to shed the image of fly by night roofing contractors and perhaps where you are you do not do alot of inspected work but our company is 95% roof consultant based and i would be laughed off the roof if i were to target a patch in this way.

There are fantastic products out there as i have mentioned before such as alsan and parapro which do not require curbs and are made specifically for this type of thing and there are practically no tools required to do the install. It also meets all warranty requirements. This would be my first and last choice every time.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Maybe I need to clarify this a bit for you. 

New roof: The pitch pans are set in hot asphalt, FYI the flanges are primed with mastic. Passes every inspection. Manufactures warranty inspectors, architects, and GC.

Existing roof: With or with out warranty, Pitch pans set in mastic, striped in with mastic or cold app. Meets warranty requirements. Passes inspections.

FYI A good majority of our work lately anyway there is 2-3 architects on the job. Generally our punch lists turn out just fine thank you. 

Congrats on the Fly by night comment. I won't sleep well tonight at all.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

1985gt said:


> Maybe I need to clarify this a bit for you.
> 
> New roof: The pitch pans are set in hot asphalt, FYI the flanges are primed with mastic. Passes every inspection. Manufactures warranty inspectors, architects, and GC.
> 
> ...


 
Dude,

Just show me one piece of literature that shows me i can use *mastic* as a permanent application method that is acceptable by an SBS membrane manufacturer and or your Roofing association and I will drop this whole thing. Put up or shut up. (and yes setting it in mastic is the norm)

The fly by night comment was not directed at you although I am starting to think you fit that moniker nicely


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

here I will do some research for you since it seems you are too lazy (or embarassed) to do so. This is from Johns Manville spec. We dont use it here but seems its more in use in your area.


*1.5 
*JM does not recommend the use of traditional asphalt cut-back mastics installed *under any SBS modified bitumen product*. The use of cut-back mastics over the SBS modified bitumen product (e.g., to
strip in the edges of a base flashing) is acceptable. JM has developed two field adhesives — MBR Cold Application Adhesive and MBR Bonding Adhesive — and two flashing adhesives — MBR Flashing Cement and MBR Utility Cement. All four are compatible with all of the JM modified bitumen products; they should be used whenever a cold adhesive application is necessary or preferred.​ 
Let me know if you need any more help finding some more of these.​​


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## LCG (May 30, 2011)

:boxing:


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

AnyMonkey said:


> here I will do some research for you since it seems you are too lazy (or embarassed) to do so. This is from Johns Manville spec. We dont use it here but seems its more in use in your area.
> 
> 
> *1.5
> ...



Nice thread hijack


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

This is what we use. 

http://www.tamko.com/Cements-Coatings/TAM-PRO/ProfessionalMastics-Cements-SBSAdhesives/Q-20PremiumSBSFlashingCement

Sorry if your confused by my use of the word "mastic" as I use it as a general term we use.


I will go snap a picture a bit later of it sitting in our shop so you will "believe" me.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

1985gt said:


> This is what we use.
> 
> http://www.tamko.com/Cements-Coatin...nts-SBSAdhesives/Q-20PremiumSBSFlashingCement
> 
> ...


 
ok thanks.... lets end this nonsense.

Ken


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

lashercontracting said:


> *What you do to the roof will have no affect on the roofing companies warranty.*


This statement may be true for your company but it is not for ours and many other companies that I know of. In my opinion it is important that it is made clear up front that if the owner makes changes to the roof without our direction that they risk losing their warranty. Nothing burns my butt more than getting a warranty call for a leak on one of my roofs only to find out it was another trade that caused it. Try collecting that service charge from your customer later.




lashercontracting said:


> *Any good roofing company will have a notice in their warranty that says they are not responsible for any damage caused by other trades or new roofing equipment.*


So are we a bad company because we dont have that statement on our warranty? Again, just because you do it........


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