# Sales Manuals, Courses and Organizations.....Any Experience And Opinions?



## Ed the Roofer

I see organizations hawking their current versions of the Holy Grail of running a business or how to sell and "Leave Your Competition In The Dust" type titles.

So, has anyone here plucked down the $ 100.00 or $ 900.00 $ 5,000.00 dollars to subscribe or join any of these or to even just buy their magis sales formulas?

I am Not implying that their is no merit to them, just cutting through the advertising hype that most come with.

*Okay, organizations like:*

CCN, Certified Contractors Network
RSI, Roofers Success International
Any others?

*Name the sales courses you have heard of, whether or not they were roofing specific or contractors in general.*

I do recall reading through the, "How to Bid Higher Than Everyone Else and Still Get the Job" website and actually did get some good information from it, even from the free video on-line, but is it worth the dollars spent?

Offhand, I am going to guess that it wouldn't be a bad investment, but there is always some other expenses that come up to take priority.

What other courses and things have you either been tempted to, or actually bought into and were they worth it?

Ed


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## jamesfl

Ed I'm glad you asked.

I went to RSI training for roofing sales and in my opinion it was for a "babe in the woods" I just love the idea of smoke, mirrors, and deception. Not to mention trying to put a customer in a choke hold to sign a contract. 

LEGAL NOTE!
Confidentiality agreement is in place. This is for the previous employer who threatened to sue me for speaking out about this on the internet.




JAMES


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## Ed the Roofer

Without divulging specifics of their training, what does the confidentiality agreement bind you from talking about?

Isn't most of the training and knowledge already public domain information?

I understand where you wouldn't be able to provide their copyrighted documents, but talking about sales systems and how to run a business is similar all throughout the world.

Ed


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## Grumpy

Once I figure out this business thing, probably 40 years from now when I ahve acheived all the goals I have set out to achieve, I too plan to setup my own little company providing information to contractors. The difference... it will be highly affordable, require no subscriptions or membership fees, and I won't broadcast it as a system that is the answer to all your prayers. 

I think the flaw with most of these systems out there is that while they may offer good advice, alot are over priced. Like CCN for example. As best I can tell they have some valuable information, however the price tag is outrageous. 


Just like you said Ed, there's always something more important to be paid first.


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## user182

*Why do you ask?*

Ed, 

you must be asking that question for a reason, would you mind sharing what it is?


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## Ed the Roofer

Jack The Roofer said:


> Ed,
> 
> you must be asking that question for a reason, would you mind sharing what it is?


Not anything specific, but every darned time you turn around, someone else wants to sell you the next proven miracle of success.

So, are any of them the Real Deal and MORE THAN Worth The Money???

Ed





I saw the coolest thing on some internet sales pitch site just a little while ago.

*Read This. I nice piece of honesty for a change:*

*Looking For a Guarantee?*​*My guarantee is worded differently than most.* I've tried as much as possible to NOT make promises on this page. In fact, my primary goal here was to provide so much value on the sales letter that it would make most actual marketing products look like _crap_. And in a lot of cases, it does...
In other words, I'm selling my *blueprint*, and as much as possible I'm trying not to package it as "HOPE". 
*So here's where I stand: *In business and in real life, there ARE no guarantees - period. Buying my blueprint will not make you rich - even though _using it_ might...
Also, you need to understand that successful people don't get to where they are by leeching off of others or whining and kicking until they get their way. Instead, they _take responsibility_ for their actions, learn from their mistakes, leverage the power of other people's experience and persist until they reach their goals.
*It's the same with investing in education.*
Now, I can't really say "No Refunds" with a straight face - because you probably don't know me, and you'd rather avoid risk whenever possible, and so would I. *If you buy my blueprint and it doesn't help you or live up to what's presented here on this page, then I'll honor your refund request - obviously...*
*In fact, you have a full 8 weeks (56 days) to use my blueprint, risk-free. *​*But What I CAN Say is This:*
*If the deciding factor for your purchase is the fact that you can get a refund if it doesn't somehow magically "make you rich" - then please don't purchase my blueprint.*​Becuase if that's the case, you're not investing in your business - you're simply looking for a quick-fix to a problem that has much deeper roots than what my product aims to solve...​ 



*And then at the closing of the sales letter, where most sites offer a Tonight Only or Offer Ending Soon Sense Of Urgency to get you to decide quick and buy, he says:*



*P.S. *Normally, this is where I'm supposed to add in a bunch of (fake) price-increase warnings, urgency and in general, some strong hype to try and push you over the edge.
Instead, I'll just be realistic by saying this: *The more action you take, the more money you'll make.*
Depending on your situation, then maybe my blueprint will be a major step forward in the right direction. Only you know the answer to that. But I'm going to close by saying that if you honestly know that this could seriously help you - don't put it off. *Go for it - you won't be disappointed...*​


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## user182

*Salesman or Quote man?*

I guess you would first have to decide if you want to be a salesman or a quote man. If all you want to do is “quote & hope” you don’t need any sales training. 

The average close ratio is around 1 out of 3 for this industry. IF you are good at what you do and keep your promises you can be average without sales training. However if you want to be better than average it may require some effort, preparation and training on your part. 

I’ve bought various training materials; audio, video, books & live training. I learn something from all of them. 

If I learn even one small thing that helps me it’s worth it. When you add many small things together then you can start closing sales that you might not have been able close before.

Here’s a list of some that I recommend.

Dave Yoho & his son David Allan Yoho
Rodney Webb


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## user182

*How are your sales going?*

Are you selling any jobs these days? 

How did last year work out compared to previous years?


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## user182

*Prosult*

I joined Prosult for 1 year and dropped out. Prosult is a networking group for contractors run by Monroe Porter. I think they charged around $2500 per year to be a member and they wanted more for sales training.

I didn’t like the group mentality so I quit. I was the only contractor in my group using subs and they made me feel like a black sheep. It’s not like I’m unfamiliar with the”employee only” model; I did it that way for 14 years.

They also wanted me to get an office manager and that just didn’t work out for me. My wife helps me part time and she opposed the idea. I think it would have just increased my overhead and not my profit.

They were all marching in lockstep to everything dictated by Monroe. I’m not much of a conformist or a kiss-ass so I just didn’t fit in. They wanted me to act like I needed “*the group*” or I wouldn’t make it.

The mandatory annual conference was held in October and that didn’t make sense to me because October is always my busiest month.


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## jamesfl

My former employer, whom joined RSI 18 months ago, has been very slow as well. With todays "tough" economy, how can you justify the monthly cost?


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## Ed the Roofer

jamesfl said:


> My former employer, whom joined RSI 18 months ago, has been very slow as well. With todays "tough" economy, how can you justify the monthly cost?


Not counting the influence done to the industry from the economy, was the membership worthwhile prior to the Great Recession?

What did you see that he.they personally gained from becoming a member, once the sales pitch star-dust wore off?

Ed


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## jamesfl

*rsi response*

The only thing I liked was the preprinted marketing letters. Detail about roof failures etc. 

I disliked the "group" theory discussed above, as well as the strictly scripted sales pitch(2 hours long). 

I think you could make your own marketing letters for far less than the cost of membership in RSI.


James


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## Ed the Roofer

Thats what is sounded like to me, but I was willing to allow the possibility of them offering something of much more substance that would make a 1/2 price version of the membership more worthwhile.

Ed


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## apehangeralfy

I'm active in the FRSA (Florida Roofing and Sheetmetal Assn.). It is a great group of people and does a lot of good for the industry. 

We are taking the lead in disaster preparedness, the state is supportive of our goals, to be able to work together to protect lives and property in the case of an event. I strongly encourage every Roofing professional in Fl to join and get involved. 

There are affiliate origination's broken down by regions so there is a local meeting near you, if you need contact info let my know. Our local affiliate is the VFRSA (Volusia and Flagler Counties Roofing and Sheetmetal Assn.) in which I am the currant VP of. 

The next meeting Feb 18 is about Workers Comp and the proposed 6.5% increase and the possibility of another 10% on top of that. This has to do with more than just roofing so we've invited the Home Builders Assn. Pres. to attend and other organizations. The meeting is at Red Lobster monthly, $20 covers the meeting and diner... Last month we did a CE Credit on tile hip and ridge attachment. I think it's a good way to give some back to the trade that gives to me....

Alfy


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## OUTLAW

I joined Prosult when I changed from being stictly new construction to in-home sales.

They have helped me a lot. It has been well worth my investment. The guy that runs it can come off as being a little bit brash, but all of his advise has been spot on.

At the meetings everybody's numbers for the year are on the table. So there ain't no B.S. The last day you set goals for next year and you are held accountable for them.

They have a bulletin board on-line for the members. You don't see the fighting and insulting going on there becuase you have to meet with these people.

To sum it up I would say that there is just so much knowlege in the groups and everybody really seems to care. I have learn more in a short period of time than most guys learn in decades on their own.


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## Grumpy

Jack The Roofer said:


> I joined Prosult for 1 year and dropped out. Prosult is a networking group for contractors run by Monroe Porter. I think they charged around $2500 per year to be a member and they wanted more for sales training.
> 
> I didn’t like the group mentality so I quit. I was the only contractor in my group using subs and they made me feel like a black sheep. It’s not like I’m unfamiliar with the”employee only” model; I did it that way for 14 years.
> 
> They also wanted me to get an office manager and that just didn’t work out for me. My wife helps me part time and she opposed the idea. I think it would have just increased my overhead and not my profit.
> 
> They were all marching in lockstep to everything dictated by Monroe. I’m not much of a conformist or a kiss-ass so I just didn’t fit in. They wanted me to act like I needed “*the group*” or I wouldn’t make it.
> 
> The mandatory annual conference was held in October and that didn’t make sense to me because October is always my busiest month.


I considered joining Monroe, but what I learned is that he's so specialized in what he's doing he is closed off to doing it any other way. I don't like his way of doing it and after speaking with him on the phone I picked up pretty quick that's he's cocky and arrogant, and I can see how you were made to feel like a black sheep. He didn't want to help me achieve my goals, he wanted to set new goals for me to achieve and then help me achieve them his way.


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## Grumpy

jamesfl said:


> My former employer, whom joined RSI 18 months ago, has been very slow as well. With todays "tough" economy, how can you justify the monthly cost?


 Who says the economy is tough? Stop listening to the hype.


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## serrano

Grumpy,when you hire a consultant he is there to tell you the things you need to hear,not what you want to hear.If you look long enough you will find a consultant to work with that will say"Great" to all of your ideas.The diifference is Monroe and your board of directors helps you step back,fix some of the existing problems,help you figure out if the original goals are realistic,then help you build a sustainable long term plan for success.If YOU cannot check your ego at the door it will not work for you.It is like going to therapy for your biz.

I was at the meeting with Jack.If you come to a meeting and tell us that you have low ball compitition,want to move into new market area to expand,with aplan on how you are going to sell your way out of dispair by doing more estimates but not focus raising prices or on closing higher %,and everyone in the room,not 1, not 1/2, everyone in the room questions your strategy you should think twice about it.Jack was combative and didnt hear word one.After that daily session was over he packed that evening and left woith 2 days left.He wanted confirmation that he was correct,not help in finding out if his goals were correct.


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## OUTLAW

Maybe things have changed since I joined. I see a lot of different types of roofing companies with all different structures.
I know that the prosult model is an owner-driven business, but I see companies there with large sales staffs and multiple sub crews.


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## Ed the Roofer

serrano said:


> Grumpy,when you hire a consultant he is there to tell you the things you need to hear,not what you want to hear.If you look long enough you will find a consultant to work with that will say"Great" to all of your ideas.The diifference is Monroe and your board of directors helps you step back,fix some of the existing problems,help you figure out if the original goals are realistic,then help you build a sustainable long term plan for success.If YOU cannot check your ego at the door it will not work for you.It is like going to therapy for your biz.
> 
> I was at the meeting with Jack.If you come to a meeting and tell us that you have low ball compitition,want to move into new market area to expand,with aplan on how you are going to sell your way out of dispair by doing more estimates but not focus raising prices or on closing higher %,and everyone in the room,not 1, not 1/2, everyone in the room questions your strategy you should think twice about it.Jack was combative and didnt hear word one.After that daily session was over he packed that evening and left woith 2 days left.He wanted confirmation that he was correct,not help in finding out if his goals were correct.


Serrano,

Please post an Introduction thread.

Your name seems familiar. Either from a good website I saw, or from a CCN members list, or elsewhere on another forum.

Where was that Prosult meeting you and Jack were at together?

Ed


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## Grumpy

serrano said:


> Grumpy,when you hire a consultant he is there to tell you the things you need to hear,not what you want to hear.If you look long enough you will find a consultant to work with that will say"Great" to all of your ideas.The diifference is Monroe and your board of directors helps you step back,fix some of the existing problems,help you figure out if the original goals are realistic,then help you build a sustainable long term plan for success.If YOU cannot check your ego at the door it will not work for you.It is like going to therapy for your biz.
> 
> I was at the meeting with Jack.If you come to a meeting and tell us that you have low ball compitition,want to move into new market area to expand,with aplan on how you are going to sell your way out of dispair by doing more estimates but not focus raising prices or on closing higher %,and everyone in the room,not 1, not 1/2, everyone in the room questions your strategy you should think twice about it.Jack was combative and didnt hear word one.After that daily session was over he packed that evening and left woith 2 days left.He wanted confirmation that he was correct,not help in finding out if his goals were correct.


Understood Serrano in regards to a consultant's job, and agreed 100%. However monroe made it pretty clear he has no desire to help anyone not willing to do it his way. he made it very clear he only knows one way to do it. There are more than 1 way to skin a cat. His owner operator model is not for everyone. It's not for me. I don't understand why the owner operator doesn't go work for someone else, it simply makes no sense to me. Some people like it, I do not. It seems to be profitable for some people, in the short run. Who's going to want to buy a business where everythign revolves around them, where the business essentially shuts down when the owner/general manager/sole salesman, production manager goes on vacation? That's why most business can't sell for more than their assets, what's there to buy? A job? 

When you have a whole room full of guys who are in the same train of thought, who have been taught by the same teacher, when someone thinks outside the box they are quickly whipped into shape for non-conformity. That's the same reason some people who are highly intelligent do poorly in school. Just always remember there is more than one way to skin a cat. We don't all have to be the owner operator business model, some of us want to be more. 

So I'll take on a consultant who will help me build what I want to build, but I won't pay a consultant who will help me build what he wants me to build. I do want a consultant who will tell me when I am wrong, but I don't want a consultant who will tell me I am wrong only because they know only one way of thinking. I'd question my consultant if he never told me I was wrong, but if the consultant tells me I am wrong before I even have half my goals stated, well they are of equal value to me as the "yes man". Maybe I am wrong, but just because I am not doing it your way doesn't make my way any less right. 

I'm just thankful I didn't get as far as Jack, as I'd probably have had the same result.


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## user182

serrano said:


> I was at the meeting with Jack.If you come to a meeting and tell us that you have low ball compitition,want to move into new market area to expand,with aplan on how you are going to sell your way out of dispair by doing more estimates but not focus raising prices or on closing higher %,and everyone in the room,not 1, not 1/2, everyone in the room questions your strategy you should think twice about it.Jack was combative and didnt hear word one.


You say “when everyone in the room questions your strategy you should think twice about it”.

The results speak for themselves. The first year out of Prosult I increased revenue by 68% and by the 2nd year out of Prosult I doubled revenue.

Compare that to 2 Prosult veterans that filed bankruptcy just before the conference. You would applaud those guys for their conformity but yet you go out of your way to try and make me look bad.



> After that daily session was over he packed that evening and left woith 2 days left.He wanted confirmation that he was correct,not help in finding out if his goals were correct.


 
This isn’t true. I attended every day except the last day.

I really didn’t want to attend the conference because my father had passed away a couple of weeks prior and I was still feeling a lot of emotion.

We were supposed to present out goals the last day and I stayed up until 2:00 am preparing for it and finally realized it didn’t matter. I realized that my goals would not be supported by Prosult members. That’s why I left.

Most people would look at the results and see that I was right. 

I left because I knew the approval of people that want to buy from me is more important than the approval of Prosult members or any other group.

I’m sure Prosult has a lot of value to some people I just don’t want to waste my time trying to justify myself to a group.


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## user182

*You hit the roofing nail on the head*



Grumpy said:


> I considered joining Monroe, but what I learned is that he's so specialized in what he's doing he is closed off to doing it any other way. I don't like his way of doing it and after speaking with him on the phone I picked up pretty quick that's he's cocky and arrogant, and I can see how you were made to feel like a black sheep. He didn't want to help me achieve my goals, he wanted to set new goals for me to achieve and then help me achieve them his way.


You are exactly right about that. 

It’s funny that you mention “goals”, that’s the very reason I left the group. I knew they would not support me in achieving my goals.

You don’t need the approval of a group you only need the approval of people that want to buy from you.


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## user182

*Do You Need the "Group"?*



Grumpy said:


> When you have a whole room full of guys who are in the same train of thought, who have been taught by the same teacher, when someone thinks outside the box they are quickly whipped into shape for non-conformity. That's the same reason some people who are highly intelligent do poorly in school. Just always remember there is more than one way to skin a cat. We don't all have to be the owner operator business model, some of us want to be more.
> 
> So I'll take on a consultant who will help me build what I want to build, but I won't pay a consultant who will help me build what he wants me to build. I do want a consultant who will tell me when I am wrong, but I don't want a consultant who will tell me I am wrong only because they know only one way of thinking. I'd question my consultant if he never told me I was wrong, but if the consultant tells me I am wrong before I even have half my goals stated, well they are of equal value to me as the "yes man". Maybe I am wrong, but just because I am not doing it your way doesn't make my way any less right.
> 
> I'm just thankful I didn't get as far as Jack, as I'd probably have had the same result.


As I said in an earlier post “I have learned something from all of them”. I did not say Prosult was of no value. Ed asked for opinions and experiences about Organizations and Sales training.

If you look at Serrano’s’ response you’ll notice that he launched into a personal attack on me rather than giving his opinion and experience with Prosult. The only thing true about what he said is that we were at the same meeting.

That’s just a taste of what you’ll get from that kind of group.

If he has a good opinion and experience with them, fine, why doesn’t he elaborate on it instead of attacking me personally? It just proves my point. People get caught up in group dynamics. They have a high need to be accepted by the group.

They couldn’t handle it because I didn’t have a high need to be accepted by the group.

Prosult has its own forum; what do you think brought those guys here anyway?

Ed asked if it was a good investment. I guess that depends on what your needs are. 

If you have to pay close $3000 to join Prosult and another $2500 for sales training what will the return on investment be?

In an earlier post I recommended Dave Yoho and Rodney Webb. I feel that both have resources that would be a good investment.

I’d rather learn from someone that’s done it before, from someone that has actually sat down face to face with a homeowner and closed a lot of deals.

You’re never going to agree 100% with any one. But Rodney Webb has sold at least 2 companies that he started. So I would say he has accomplished something that most people this business have not.


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## Ed the Roofer

I was just trying to create some open ended dialogue to spark some ideas from this forum, so that it doesn't become stagnated from a lack of viable topics.

I hope there is no real hard feelings between you guys.

Was the Prosult meeting in your State Jack?

How does Serrano know you from just your user name?

Is that other Forum closed, for their members only?

Supposedly, so is CCN's and RSI's, but I have been able to post in both of those when I wanted to. They willingly gave me full access, just for asking.

Ed


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## Ed the Roofer

By the way, those CCN and RSI Forums are pretty much Dead. It is only about once per week or two that someone even bothers making a new post or thread on either one of them.

Pretty poor showing from their members, if you ask me.

Ed


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## user182

Ed the Roofer said:


> I was just trying to create some open ended dialogue to spark some ideas from this forum, so that it doesn't become stagnated from a lack of viable topics.
> 
> I hope there is no real hard feelings between you guys.
> 
> Was the Prosult meeting in your State Jack?
> 
> How does Serrano know you from just your user name?
> 
> Is that other Forum closed, for their members only?
> 
> Supposedly, so is CCN's and RSI's, but I have been able to post in both of those when I wanted to. They willingly gave me full access, just for asking.
> 
> Ed


The meeting was in Virginia.

I don't now how he knows who I am.

They have a closed forum. As I recall it was fiarly active.


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## OUTLAW

Yeah their forum is fairly active.

I totally agree that you should take in knowlege from all resourses available.

I will be looking for David Yoho on Amazon.

IMO Prosult has been well worth every dime and every second that I have spent.
I looked at alot of different organizations before I joined Prosult. I beleive that I made the right decesion in joining with them.

I'm not sure where the idea that they are opposed to everybody using subs came from. I was told that I need to start subbing more of my work out. Maybe its different advice for different companies.

What ever you decide to do, I think you need to go at it with an open mind. Don't expect overnight miricales.


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## Grumpy

OUTLAW said:


> What ever you decide to do, I think you need to go at it with an open mind. Don't expect overnight miricales.


 My experience is simply a 15 minute conversation I had with Monroe on the phone. I didn't expect over night miracles but I expected an open ear.

He was very quick to judge me during that conversation. Therefore I am equally as judgemental of him. Admittedly I just said I have had a 15 minute experience with him, and he with me. He made me feel like chit in that 15 minutes, even suggested I'd go out of business without his help, and soon. I really don't know how he came to those judgements since he wouldn't let me finish a single sentance. 

I do need help, we all do, but I do not need HIS. I'm not saying his service is of no value. I'm sure he is helping a tremendous number of people. However his service is definetly not for me. Maybe more accurately put, HE is not the person to help me.


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## OUTLAW

That sounds very much like the first conversation that I had with him.
At the end of the phone call, I thought the guy was just arrogant.

I did however like the concept of Prosult.\

What I found out latter was that most of what he was saying was right on target. Some of it took 8 months for me to find out on my own, but it was true. 

Now when he said that I will probably go under soon, I thought he was crazy. Now when I look back at what I was trying to do, I think he was right. I'm not saying that its true in your case . And now that I have heard what you told you, it sounds like thats his sales pitch. But in my case, I was a new construction contractor. I operated at a high volume with low margin. With the housing market slow, I decided to go after public bid work and also more builder work with an estimator. Also I wanted to go after in-home sales with a salesman. Problem was I didn't know my numbers. I did know what MOST everybody around town was charging. 

Now that I've seen quite a few of my competitors go under this past year, I am glad that I did join and that I have not just Monroe, but my board of directors, Dan Koehler, and all the other resources available to me thru our organization.

That is just my experince. 

I joined NRCA, and MRA and some local trade organizations. I don't feel I got any real value out of any of them.


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## Grumpy

I'm a member of the NRCA. Every time it's time for renewal I question why I am doing it. I mean their saftey stuff and resources are great, from the production side of things. They don't offer much in the way of management assistance, other than their future roofign exectives institute. I looked into that,a nd as best I can gather I pay a few K a year to meet up and chit chat with some other roofers twice a year, once in chicago and once in vegas. My personal opinion is that trade orginizations are more for production management than business management.


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## Onarooftop

I was told by many people in the forums not to join RSI. I am glad that I did. Any time I say all the reasons that I am glad I joined then, everybody says I am trying to sell RSI to them. I know people in CCN, RSI, and ProSult. If you own a roofing company, then RSI is the way to go. James, I have heard you speak on the forums about how the sales class is like holding someone in a chokehold. Did you actually ever go there? I believe it is the opposite of high pressure sales tactics. I am a member. You can go to a profit days to get more info. If you don't think it was worth you time they give you 250.00 or something like that. If you sign up as a member and go to one of their Expo's that is every six months. You get all your money back, no strings attached, if you want. I can't recall anyone leaving that showec up to the expo. 

Ed, you are a good friend of mine. Do yourself a favor and go to the profit days, and an expo. Decide for yourself. Don't listen to peoples opinions on something that they don't know anything about. 

Kyle Brink


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## user182

*How much is it?*



Onarooftop said:


> I was told by many people in the forums not to join RSI. I am glad that I did. Any time I say all the reasons that I am glad I joined then, everybody says I am trying to sell RSI to them. I know people in CCN, RSI, and ProSult. If you own a roofing company, then RSI is the way to go. James, I have heard you speak on the forums about how the sales class is like holding someone in a chokehold. Did you actually ever go there? I believe it is the opposite of high pressure sales tactics. I am a member. You can go to a profit days to get more info. If you don't think it was worth you time they give you 250.00 or something like that. If you sign up as a member and go to one of their Expo's that is every six months. You get all your money back, no strings attached, if you want. I can't recall anyone leaving that showec up to the expo.
> 
> Ed, you are a good friend of mine. Do yourself a favor and go to the profit days, and an expo. Decide for yourself. Don't listen to peoples opinions on something that they don't know anything about.
> 
> Kyle Brink


What is the annual fee for RSI


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## Ed the Roofer

Onarooftop said:


> I was told by many people in the forums not to join RSI. I am glad that I did. Any time I say all the reasons that I am glad I joined then, everybody says I am trying to sell RSI to them. I know people in CCN, RSI, and ProSult. If you own a roofing company, then RSI is the way to go. James, I have heard you speak on the forums about how the sales class is like holding someone in a chokehold. Did you actually ever go there? I believe it is the opposite of high pressure sales tactics. I am a member. You can go to a profit days to get more info. If you don't think it was worth you time they give you 250.00 or something like that. If you sign up as a member and go to one of their Expo's that is every six months. You get all your money back, no strings attached, if you want. I can't recall anyone leaving that showec up to the expo.
> 
> Ed, you are a good friend of mine. Do yourself a favor and go to the profit days, and an expo. Decide for yourself. Don't listen to peoples opinions on something that they don't know anything about.
> 
> Kyle Brink


Kyle,

I seemed like the Lone Voice supporting your enthusiasm and willingness to expand your abilities at the time on the one forum.

Maybe for some, a weekend with one of those forum experts, (who I also hold in high esteem, by the way), would suffice. Unfortunately, I am not them, so my learning patterns have evolved differently.

For me, I find their disrespect to other people wanting to learn via a different resource than themselves, rather annoying, when the only advice they offer is to let an old carnie teach you the tin man ways, ridiculing you to the point of not furthering the discussion on there, since it always came back with the same generic responses.

Who am I to tell you or anyone else, that a premise you found invigorating and fruitfull, was not worth the price of their admission to their events?

I am more than 100% confident that their ways work for them but for other individuals like myself, a certain amount of documentation and hands on training is required for it to stick.

I for one, need me to prove it to me, not for someone elses methods to speak for how I should do things.

I am really glad for you, but too bad for me, I can't and seemingly alwys find myself in this position, find the money to charge forward like you did. I know the answer to that, that they would tell me from any organization...I can't afford Not to make that dedication to advancement, but fear of the unknown financial expenditure is a high negative non-motivator, at least for me.

Ed


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## Onarooftop

Hi Ed,

You have always had an open mind and have been supportive of whatever my choices have been. You always give good advice. Ed, Check out my website we started to put together. brinkroofingcompany.com It has a lot of stuff from RSI. Ed Asner video, Linda Gray video, etc. The website still needs a lot of work, but it is pretty cool.


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## Ed the Roofer

I saw it several months ago when I was checking out some other FootBridge Work.

It looks nice, but I think videos should only come on when a person wants to click on them.

Man, Ed Asner is looking old these days.

Ed


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## Ed the Roofer

Kyle, 

Check out your Repair Vs Replace link.

Is "Hackman" supposed to be in that line?

repairvsreplace.com/shingleQuiz.aspx?dc=HACKMAN Roofing, Siding & Spouting&ad=1593 South Mount Joy St&dealercity=Elizabethtown&sp=PA&ph=***-367-2348

I asterisked over your area code.

What did you need to do, Besides Spend Money, to get the Green Certified title and video?

Ed


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## jamesfl

quote: James, I have heard you speak on the forums about how the sales class is like holding someone in a chokehold. Did you actually ever go there? 


Kyle,

Yes I went to the sales training class. I have always been a top producing salesman, why should I throw away all that works for ME and start over again with all the "mastery of roofing sales" that RSI pitches. I quit the company I worked for after they became RSI members, I had a job with their competitor one hour later. They couldn't wait to hire me. I think if you are new to roofing sales, then you may do OK with it. 

I don't like what I would say is smoke and mirrors about the types of material you sell. The same roof RSI would have me call a special name( I don't know if I can say the name here) is the exact same roof I sell today for my new employer. My RSI former employer covertly obtained all the competitors bids to use in the sales pitch for RSI, at RSI's suggestion. Is that ethical?

Kyle, I'm glad you find some use out of the program, How much is it up front and monthly these days?


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## Dr. Deth

I was involved rsi. :thumbdown:In my opinion I would save my money. They try to use the same business model for hvac and apply it to the roofing business and say the 2 trades are the same in structure(?) Business picked up after the company left rsi and changed our system.


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## Onarooftop

Hi,

I am glad things are going well for you James and Dr. Deth. There are a lot of things that have been really helpful in rsi, and some we have not chosen to use. True, there is some scuzball roofing companies with jerks for owners in the membership. I stay away from them and stay close to the companies that aren't that way. I try to use the same logic in the forums. 
James you sound like an excellent salesman. If you worked for me, I would say the same thing. Stick to whatever you are doing. 
Ed, how many of you are there. You are everywhere. haha
:laughing:


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## Dr. Deth

If you stick around long enough there is a good chance that that you will find out that "skuzball" will refer to more than just some members. Every thing worth a grain of salt you will get at your first expo. Take what you want to use and run like hell. In my opinion there is not any new material coming from roofers success interntional that is worth while. They will show you there hand up front. I have found forums like contractor talk to be much more helpful. There are many sharp contractors from all trades that post very helpful information and are always willing to help out. To be perfectly honest, I learned more from reading and participating in the contractor talk forum than I ever learned from roofers success international.


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## serrano

Sorry guys I was away for a conference.Ed,My name is Ovid Figueroa.I am the owner of Serrano Roofing out of Middletown,NY.I know outlaw because he is in one of the groups that meets with me inOct.In Prosult you open up to the point that you can tell who you are talking to with a basic discription of there company,like was done earlier.I know it was Jack because that was the only time something like that had happened in any group,and his posts sound like him.JackI am sorry if that experience still bothers you but your your discription of us is like we are goose stepping behind Monroe is certainly inaccurate.

I opened my company in 1987 doing mostly siding.I got into windows and roofing within a few years.I did all sales and ran a crew and ran between 2 and 5 man crews over the next12 years.After my son was born in 1999 I closed up shop went to work with a general contractor for 2 years than in 2001 reopened 1 county northin a new market.Before the end of 2003 my back had gotten so bad I needed to get off of the roof.In 04 I was working out of my home and it was tough with the volume so i put together the plan to move into a small office and hire an OM.I met Monroe at a Certainteed contractor seminar.Spoke to him for 15 min,he gave me some referances.I looked into some others but they seemed to be cookie cuter programs.Since i joined prosult,my sales have not fluctuated by more than 15% yr to yr,I have gone from working over 3000hrs a year to approx 2400,I have tripled my income,I connot put a price on how much my better quality of life is worth.Now Monroe may be the driving force behind prosult but the True power is the 48 other roofers and the painter and landscpers that are in his other groups.All different models designed to meet the owners personality.I have done over 13 visits and that is the power.When you get to see every aspect of how someone else oporates without them holding back anything,happy to help each other with any thing they may need.Monroe is very intuitive,and if you have any problems he knows which contractor you should talk or visit that has been through what you have or already has that spread sheet designed,ect...Prosult has has shortened my learning curve.

In a nut shell I have learned how to understand and manage my overhead,and job costs.Use that understanding to price my jobs accordingly for a healthy profit.Learned how to find,train and manage good employees to produce a quality product profitably.Refine our customer service program to prduce quality referrals and develope a strong name brand in the comunity.And by working with Monroe and a Buiseness phsycologist that works with prosult,come to understand my weaknesses and tendencys so I can make better choices based on the facts not fears.

I hope this a little better discription of what prosult has done for me.


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## OUTLAW

Serrano,

I agree with you when you say the true power is in the group. Although, having Monroe and Dan and Russ and too shabby either. 

One big difference between the prosult forum and this one is you got to go face-to-face with the prosult people. On these forums you be full of BS and nobody will ever know. However, when you get in the board meeting and your numbers for the year areon the table, there is no hiding. 

Are you going to the Sales Reveiw in Baltimore? Hope to see you there.


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## OUTLAW

I attented the Contractors Edge Round Table yesterday in Richmond. A lot of the same info that you would get from the afore mentioned sales organizations. Just condensed into a four hour format. 

What a pitty that most of the contractors there didn't need it. The ones who needed it were out busy low-balling more jobs.


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## ATC1984

alittle off topic but I highly recommend The Sandler Sales Training. I have never been to the actual training but I was able to get my hands on one of his books from the training. My personal sales have never been better and I havent even finished the book.

I have never been a huge fan of the traditional "back em into a corner" sales method and his concept goes very much against any other training I have ever received.


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## Ed the Roofer

ATC1984 said:


> alittle off topic but I highly recommend The Sandler Sales Training. I have never been to the actual training but I was able to get my hands on one of his books from the training. My personal sales have never been better and I havent even finished the book.
> 
> I have never been a huge fan of the traditional "back em into a corner" sales method and his concept goes very much against any other training I have ever received.


That would be right on target for what this threads premise was to be about.

Now, is that a "Special" Sandler book, just for seminar attendees, that you got your hands on, or is available to the public?

What is the title?

Ed


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## user182

*Sandler*

I have had extensive training in the Sandler Sales System.

I bought a lifetime membership in the “Presidents Club” back in 2002.

I can go to 2 sessions per week if I want to. I used to go twice per week when I first started. Now I only go once in a while.

It was great training. I had never had any training prior to Sandler. I started out pounding nails a long time ago.

However it’s generic training, so you have to come up with your own method for applying it to what you do.

Sandler is very different to traditional sales methods and it’s difficult to execute.

David Sandler died around 1998 but they have over a hundred franchisees around the country. I don’t know if they have updated their system since he died.

The trainer I had was very rigid. Everything had to be done exactly according to their system or else you were screwing up.

It’s that way with all of the Guru Type trainer or coaches. So long as you buy into their system you’re OK. IF you have any differing opinion they’ll make you look like a fool.

I could go on and on about sales training but I don’t have the time.

I’ve had live trying from Phil Rea & Rodney Webb. 

Audio & video training from Dave Yoho and a 2 day seminar from Dave Yoho.

I drive about hour each way to work so I’ve listened to all kinds of audio training. 

I’m in the process of perfecting my own sales system. I am going to combine things that I’ve learned from all of them.


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## ATC1984

From what I understand you can only get it at a seminar

It is titled "you cant teach a kid to ride a bike at a seminar" by david h. sandler.

I dont think his techniques are all that difficult to apply. I am a personal fan of the "negative reverse selling." 

I think the system would be rather difficult to apply had I been in sales for longer than I have. Ive been selling for almost 4 years in different industries now so I have never gotten to attached to any particular "selling system". 

For someone that has been in sales for 10 year plus may find it hard to make such a dramatic change from what they have been told their whole career.


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## OUTLAW

I have a friend that just attended a sales seminar by Rodney Webb. Any of you guys every heard of him?

If so, what are your thoughts?


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## Ed the Roofer

I know a few, plus I know Jack has seen him.

They all say he could claim to sell very well, like in the 90% closing rate.

Ed


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## OUTLAW

Thats what his website claims, 91% closing. Supposedly with the highest estimate too. I think I'll buy some of his sales CDs and give it a listen.


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## OUTLAW

So I bought some so of Rodney Webbs sales Cds.

Not worth the investment. The only thing that he talks about is his refference list. It wasn't even very motivational.

I've got to say the best investment I've made in sales training has been with Proof Management. I think that most every kind of contractor can benefit from their Cds " Business Listening" and "How To Get The Job At Your Price":thumbup:

And every time I attend one of their functions, I learn something new.


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## serrano

Outlaw,I agree that Proofs program and tapes are excellent, but I saw Webb in person last week at a OC sponsored sales training and I was impressed.I dont know if Webbs CD's could possibly be as good as the roleplaying and Q&A that went on in person.

Serrano


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## Century Man

Onarooftop said:


> I was told by many people in the forums not to join RSI. I am glad that I did. Any time I say all the reasons that I am glad I joined then, everybody says I am trying to sell RSI to them. I know people in CCN, RSI, and ProSult. If you own a roofing company, then RSI is the way to go. James, I have heard you speak on the forums about how the sales class is like holding someone in a chokehold. Did you actually ever go there? I believe it is the opposite of high pressure sales tactics. I am a member. You can go to a profit days to get more info. If you don't think it was worth you time they give you 250.00 or something like that. If you sign up as a member and go to one of their Expo's that is every six months. You get all your money back, no strings attached, if you want. I can't recall anyone leaving that showec up to the expo.
> 
> Ed, you are a good friend of mine. Do yourself a favor and go to the profit days, and an expo. Decide for yourself. Don't listen to peoples opinions on something that they don't know anything about.
> 
> Kyle Brink


You get all your money back, no strings attached, if you want.

It's been 10 months and I still haven't seen any reimbursement.


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## jamesfl

Ten months and no money? How much do they owe you?


James


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