# Supplements



## fairwaysolutions (Jan 17, 2013)

I am sure many of you have either been overloaded during storm season with supplements or just overall hate arguing over and over about the same line items with adjusters. Either way, Fairway Solutions is here to help and we want you to know about us. We write up an Xactimate estimate based off of the evidence provided by your salesman and then submit the estimate to the insurance carrier for review. We then follow up and come to an agreed price with the adjuster and final invoice for depreciation once you let us know work has been completed. We do all this for a reasonable charge and never charge if we do not make you more money. If this sounds interesting you can e-mail us at [email protected]


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## buildpinnacle (Apr 18, 2009)

How do you negotiate with an adjuster without holding a public adjusters license?


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## fairwaysolutions (Jan 17, 2013)

A *public adjuster* is an insurance claims adjuster who advocates for the policyholder in appraising and negotiating a claimant's insurance claim. We do not represent or work for the policyholder, we represent ourselves as a sub-contractor for the Roofing company or General Contractor doing the work very much like a salesman does. We do not negotiate with the insurance company. We submit evidence to the insurance company for their review and explain, why as a contractor, these items need to be paid for to appropriately complete the project. We provide a service to contractors to alleviate them from time consuming paperwork and phone calls to allow them to do what makes them money, selling and building jobs.


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## buildpinnacle (Apr 18, 2009)

Understood. But what if they say no? I'm not trying to be difficult. I don't care either way. Just curious as to whether you are catching flack from the carriers when they don't agree and you have to 'negotiate'.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Just say no to Supplements. 


I don't do supplements. I've told numerous adjusters that upfront when they have said "well that's what supplements are for, submit your price after the fact blah blah blah" No. I want to know upfront exactly what I am doing A B C D and exactly what I am getting paid. The LAST thing I ever want to do is set myself up for an argument about money when I have no power because I've already spend the money on said supplement. I know guys who have eaten thousands of dollars on unpaid supplements. 


Now let's be honest about supplements... 98% of the time anything about a roof replacement is VERY predictable. Only 2% of the time is there ever truly an unknown. Therefore it is my opinion that supplements should only be utilized as an exception to the rule, rather than utilizing supplements as the rule. If your team is to inept to know what to expect for possible unknowns maybe they should be on the ground cleaning up trash rather than estimating and negotiating. Just my $0.02.


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## fairwaysolutions (Jan 17, 2013)

Grumpy,
What happens when you sign a contract when a homeowner who has already had the original adjustment? Is a supplement not necessary then or does this fall under the 2% category? What about when an adjuster says he is going to approve O&P and when the paperwork comes he did not put it on the estimate? In regards to you knowing several contractor's who have lost thousands of dollars due to supplementing that is why you supplement before you do the work and sign a change of contract with the homeowner.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

(I guess we are calling a supplement something different. For purposes of this conversation it has always been my belief that a supplement is something after the work has began. Therefore when I say supplement I am specifically speaking of an added cost AFTER I have agreed to an adjustment. Anything before that I consider the adjustment or revised adjustment. Perhaps it is my own naive-ness on the subject, but this should alleviate any confusion arguing over definitions.)

If I charge more than the insurance is willing to offer which happens on a vast vast majority of any job I am doing which is insurance related, the customer either has to eat it or negotiate with the insurance company. I will negotiate on their behalf with a signed contract AND a down payment but at the end of the day I tell each and every one of my customers (when it's an insurance job, which I try to avoid anyways) expect to come out of pocket. 

Again, I want ALL arguments upfront so I am not left holding the bag after the fact (remember my definition a supplement occurs after work has begun). I definitely do NOT think your example falls under the 2% category. If the job hasn't started yet why should the added cost be a supplement? Supplements are for unknowns, if you KNOW your are going to charge more and that you might not get paid the extra you would be wise to argue about that before you pull money out of your pocket to do someones roof. 

If the adjuster says he will approve O&P but isn't on the paper work, a polite phone call to the adjuster BEFORE you start the job is in order. I govern my life by a mantra and that mantra is "if it's not in writing it doesn't exist." Conversely I also govern my life by "what ever I put in writing WILL be used against me in a court of law." However it would be very easy for the adjuster after the fact to say he never approved O&P and you are left holding the bag. I tell every one of my customers, if it's not in writing it doesn't exist, when they tell me my competitor said he would do this or said he would do that but then submit a proposal with words to the contrary... Really? How many property owners have been shafted by this trick, and I can tell you that the Judge will side by the word that can be proven, which will be the written word unless you have a recording of some kind to prove the contrary.


Look at it like this, as a business owner my absolute #1 job is to mitigate risk. Real risk management. If there is great risk there must be great reward. I will not knowingly introduce myself into a risky situation knowing I can potentially lose thousands of dollars. I run a business, not a charity, and even charities make money but that's a topic for another discussion. 

Why would you operate any differently? How many guys here have been denied supplements? I am sure you can do a search and find guys complaining of this very thing.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

I have a hard time understanding this because we do not have alot of insurance claims in our area. Part of the reason is we do not have the extreme weather that some areas have and the other part is that insurance compnies in our area will no longer insure a home or apartment unless the roof has been inspected. If the roof is determined to be at risk then the owner must make good before coverage is granted.

All of that being said, I am guessing that by supplement you are saying "extra" work beyond the scope of the original contract. Would it not be simple to supply extra line items for unforseen costs such as carpenter $70.00 per hour (includes O&P) materials to be cost plus 20% or whatever, plywood replacement at $150.00 per sheet.... this kind of thing... and have the signing authority initial each of these prior to starting the job?

maybe im missing the point here.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Monkey, I too am no insurance expert, but that is self inflicted. I see signs all over for "free roofing and siding" and we don't really have extreme weather either, but all you need is one hail storm to set the sharks loose! 

Having acknowledged that I am no expert, this is my understanding. There is an original settlement, sometimes called an adjustment. If that original settlement has let's say 1 layer of tear off but later the roof discovers there is 2 layers, you submit a supplemental for the 2nd layer. Makes perfect sense to everyone I hope.

What I am advocating is that if you KNOW there is a 2nd layer and KNOW the adjustment and settlement only include 1 layer, ARGUE about that and get the pay-out increased before you commit to starting any work. If however you discover that there is a 2nd layer after you begin work, maybe the edge is hidden (we've all seen that before) then submit pictures etc and request additional funds which in my mind becomes the supplemental. 

The unknowns, I have line items in my proposal for unknowns such as rotten wood at $x per sheet, but truth be told insurance doesn't pay for rotten sheathing, but will pay for framing... so there is gray area. Again ALL I am advocating is argue about it before you start work, know what you're getting into.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

I think that this is where great benefit could be had by the use of 3rd party roof consultants who get paid by the insurer a % of the project or flat fee... the consultant draws up the initial scope which is what the roofer uses to quote the work and the insurer uses to come to their numbers. Any supplements would then need to be signed off by the consultant for approval and they also determine whether it is the insurer or the homeowners responsibility and the insurer/homeowner are bound by the deal.

Most of the work our company does is consultant based and it is rare that we have a financial dispute with the customer because the roof consultant has already approved the change work order.


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## LCG (May 30, 2011)

My two cents for what it's worth.

If we run into additional work we inform the homeowner of said work and cost to replace. Call the insurance company and inform them of the price. The customer is made award that whatever the insurance does not cover they will be liable for.

I refuse to play this (unethical) game!

I know the majority of the adjusters in our area and they are pretty good about keeping up with the roofing contractors pricing. We are not in the boat of keeping up with their pricing. Thats what happens when you actually meet with your compitition and agree to not get hosed as a group and stand up to these guys.

Man this stuff chap's my arse. 

Sorry I didn't answer you question but in a way I think I did. Make the HO sign the origional contract and any additional work agreements. Whaver the insurance doesn't cover the HO does. PERIOD.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why contractors have two different sets of morals. If the HO calls without insurance we charge our full amount. When the HO calls with insurance we charge less and fight for every penny? WTF. Not in my world!

I am getting away from this post before I completely lose it!


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

AnyMonkey said:


> I think that this is where great benefit could be had by the use of 3rd party roof consultants who get paid by the insurer a % of the project or flat fee... the consultant draws up the initial scope which is what the roofer uses to quote the work and the insurer uses to come to their numbers. Any supplements would then need to be signed off by the consultant for approval and they also determine whether it is the insurer or the homeowners responsibility and the insurer/homeowner are bound by the deal.
> 
> Most of the work our company does is consultant based and it is rare that we have a financial dispute with the customer because the roof consultant has already approved the change work order.


I do not disagree, but who is going to pay that %? When the hacks are offering free roofs, even offering to pay the customer $500 for the privilege of doing their roof, why would 90% of the customers out there agree to pay an adjuster out of their pocket to increase the settlement to the roofer? It's just not going to happen!

... and for what it's worth, I don't like working for consultants, architects, engineers, or general contractors. As much as possible I want to work for the property owner if I can. I don't mind working for facility or property managers because they never get in my face about "why are you doing it like this or like that?" 90% of the time I am right about what I am doing, but I have to waste my precious time showing and proving that I am right. Since nobody comensates me for the added time, I don't feel I should have to waste it.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

LCG said:


> My two cents for what it's worth.
> 
> If we run into additional work we inform the homeowner of said work and cost to replace. Call the insurance company and inform them of the price. The customer is made award that whatever the insurance does not cover they will be liable for.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree with you more.


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## buildpinnacle (Apr 18, 2009)

Grump,

To me, a supplement would be warranted on 'unforeseen' items. By 'unforseen' I don't mean 'overlooked'. The reason insurance companies are hesitant to just pony up for an extra is because of the abuse a good portion of the stormers have levied on this issue. As a PA, I am a 100% consumer advocate. However, I will also call a spade a spade and give credit where credit is due. If you run into rotted wood, structural issues, etc that could not have been adjusted properly and included then I think those are completely acceptable situations if the policy language or extended coverages afford coverage for such items. What I do not agree with and I think the reason some adjusters deny first and ask questions later is because roofers are supplementing for extra squares, additonal layers, drip edge, an extra tubine, the back elevation siding or window wraps, etc. I know of several companies that send every single file across their 'supplement' desk. If they build an extra few hundred into each claim file and they do several thousand roofs a year (which a lot of them do) look at the money it generates for them. That I have a major issue with. Everything in the latter I mentioned should have been allowed for up front. Those are not suprises.....they are just lazy roofers. If the adjuster missed them and you came on the file late, get them approved before you start work. If you don't, you deserve not to be paid.


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## vtroofing (Sep 27, 2009)

AnyMonkey said:


> I think that this is where great benefit could be had by the use of 3rd party roof consultants who get paid by the insurer a % of the project or flat fee... the consultant draws up the initial scope which is what the roofer uses to quote the work and the insurer uses to come to their numbers. Any supplements would then need to be signed off by the consultant for approval and they also determine whether it is the insurer or the homeowners responsibility and the insurer/homeowner are bound by the deal.
> 
> Most of the work our company does is consultant based and it is rare that we have a financial dispute with the customer because the roof consultant has already approved the change work order.


They call these guys adjusters


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