# epdm seam restoration, does this sound accurate



## Grumpy

I am bidding an EPDM seam restoration on a ballasted EPDM project. Overall measurements are 174'x153' with a bump out of 57'x5' for a total field squares of 96 plus walls. Walls are 664 linear feet average height of 5' seams spaced 20' oc. 2 flu pipes, 2 fan curbs, 2 scuttles, 4 drains, 7 rtu, 7 vtr. 
Scope of work, shovel rock off seams and around penetrations, power wash area shoveled, scrub with weathered membrane cleaner, primer, self adhering cover tape, edge caulk as necessary. 

So here is the question, I'm just trying to fact check my estimate to make sure the man hours seem accurate. 
1 day 3 men: move gravel and power wash. 
2 days 3 men: scrub, seams, penetrations, flashings, etc... 

I've got a pretty good guesstimate of the materials I am going to need, just under $6,000.


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## 1985gt

2 days for 3 guys? Seems a little low to me. You have around 1000' of seams. In my experiance ballast scale doesnt come off easy. I dont know about power washing it as we have never tried it that way. Real quick look and I was at about 3.5. That of course is with out knowing what were getting in to.


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## Grumpy

I should have been more clear, I figure 3 days for 2 men, I see how it could have been misread. I fixed it.


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## flatroofing

From the scope of work to the quote, I would feel comfortable.Stress the quality of work you do.
The owners should be happy whith the price.Good luck


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## 1985gt

Still seems low to me. Then again we have never used a power washer on the ballast scale. How well does that work anyway. I *hate* getting the scale off. None the less im sure this isnt your first rodeo, go with what your comferable. Too bad you couldnt do time and material. What kind of tip do you use on the pressure washer for this, we have one that kinda does a cyclone type of action, it will etch concrete if your not carefull.


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## Grumpy

I use a power washer often for elastomeric. It'll get off all the scale if you want it to, but I just want to get the mid and heavy mud off. We intend to scrub off the imbedded dirt with weathered membrane cleaner. 

The trick with a power washer on a roof is low pressure. I've got a decent rig, way better than you actually need for any roofing application, I am a junky for nice tools, I keep it locked up in my garage with the grubby employee hands can't mistreat or steal it. I have adjustable pressure on the washer plus of coarse various different tips. I like a nice spread out fan spray speeds things up.


I have done seam restoration on ballasted epdm before but not so large so just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing the roof for practice. Seems like I am right in the ball park of where I need to be. I am offering a 2 year guarantee on all the seams and penetrations, excluding the covered "field" of the roof.


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## 1985gt

Have you ever tried using 409 and a scotch brite pad? We have used this before the membrane cleaner to get the scale off. Anyway good luck!


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## Grumpy

never tried it since we always seem to have a few 5 gallon pails of membrane cleaner on hand. Might try it for a repair but don't think I'd opt for it on a major seam restoration.


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## 1985gt

Cheaper then using membrane cleaner for it all. You make your guys lug 5gals of seam cleaner around. Damn your mean!


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## Grumpy

We pour the cleaner into 1 gallon gas cans LOL. 

Not necessarily looking for cheaper. One of my montras is that faster and cheaper isn't always better. I usually try to do what's better not necessarily cheaper, though like everyone I do enjoy saving a buck when I can. If it works that's great. I haven't tried it, so wouldn't make a 1,500 linear foot job my guinnea pig. If it works well on a repair we might try it on a restoration.


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## 1985gt

I agree. Try it on a repair sometime. I wouldnt say its being cheap doing it. It just works better then membrane cleaner to get the scale off. You still use membrane cleaner when your done. make sure you bring a ton of rags. We have tried alot of methods for cleaning. 409 works pretty good. A good stiff bristle scrub brush works well too. I wouldnt say wasting 5gal's of membrane cleaner is better then a couple of gallons of 409 and a gallon of cleaner. Faster in this case is better, as long as you get all the scale off then clean it with membrane cleaner you get the same results. Try it if you want, thought id share a trick weve learned over the years or keep doing it your way makes no differnce to me. Ill just take my cheap as* else where.


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## jjshaggy

1985gt thats how i was taught, then while its still wet squigee off area. youll still need some cleaner but not as much. when you guys refer to scale what is that? does this roof have a coating on it?


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## Grumpy

jjshaggy said:


> 1985gt thats how i was taught, then while its still wet squigee off area. youll still need some cleaner but not as much. when you guys refer to scale what is that? does this roof have a coating on it?


 Yes, a coating od mud and muck imbedded within the ballast rock from years of dust or accumulation. Some of that dirt gets really imbedded into the epdm membrane.


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## PTROOFING

I know ballast systems can get messy, but we work on numerous 5+ story buildings and usually lean with warm fresh water and ****-n-span, then prime and tape. We usually leave ballast away from repair area for a few rains then return and replace. 600ft of tape over 2 days with 2 laborers and 1 tech would cost about what you are bidding. We dont powerwash unless needed. A good simple solution of mild cleanser and warm water, and a lot of rags, work fine, and dries quicker. You have to remember, when you power wash all the water is just going to bring the surrounding muck to your repair areas. ****-n-Span or pine sol work great!

We usually charge $2,500.00 per day for 2 laborers and 1 tech (materials included), but for a ballast system its a bit more. I think you are in the right ballpark as far as price.


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## 1985gt

no cleaner? just **** an span wipe off prime and stick?


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## RoofPro

I have had excellent results using lacquer thinner to clean ballasted EPDM. We’ve tested it head to head with Exposed Membrane Cleaner, the lacquer seemed to work better.


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## 1985gt

Yeah I would guess it would work better. We use to use Gas, but the boss doesnt like to do that anymore. go figure...


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## Grumpy

We used membrane cleaner in gas cans. In the video I am editing up, I made a point to put a caption "we are not using gas!" LOL. Gas used to be the required cleaner before the manufacturers got smart and realized they could make a fortune on cleaner.


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## Grumpy

For the record the job took 3 guys 5 days, but they wern't full days. We arrived late waiting for the day to warm up and left as soon as it got too cold for the primer. 6 hour days I would figure. Probably a total of 90 man hours. I was 1 day over budget  Next time I will listen to my spreadsheet. 


By the way my original post, I am suprised nobody caught my typo. "174'x153' with a bump out of 57'x5' for a total field squares of 96 plus walls. " 96 squares?! LOL I must been tired or drunk when I posted that, thank god my linear footages were right.  1,500 linear feet of seam tape total, plus 2 rolls of 12" and 1 roll of 9" uncured SA flashing.


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## RoofPro

"I must been tired or drunk "

A drunk roofer? Never heard of such a thing. 

Hope you made out ok on that one despite being a day over budge. Thanks for the post - it was an interesting topic.


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## Grumpy

LOL no actually I was using the calculator on my phone, and there is something abot me an calculators... when ever I use one that isn't "mine" I make mistakes. When my calculator broke I spent 5 hours looking for a replacement that was exactly the same.


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## 1985gt

Grumpy said:


> We used membrane cleaner in gas cans. In the video I am editing up, I made a point to put a caption "we are not using gas!" LOL. Gas used to be the required cleaner before the manufacturers got smart and realized they could make a fortune on cleaner.


Make sure you gas cans are marked beofre posting that video, I would hate to see osha pay you a vist because you posted a vid on utube.


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## Grumpy

There's a big caption across the screen. "We are not using gasoline." You can't miss it.

I do have the cans marked now, but not in the video.


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## 1985gt

Osha wont care whats in it as long as its gas, I could look it up but im to lazy :laughing:. That is one of the reason we buy cleaner in the gallon cans still. That and lugging 5 gal of cleaner to a roof would just suck.


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## jjshaggy

i would take an old 1 gallon cleaner can and refill it for repair jobs, leave the 5 gal. in the van. that way owner could still save $, and i wasnt bustin my balls luggin around a 5 gal.


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## Grumpy

When I try to buy cleaner in 1 gallon increments, magically 5 gallon cans show up. LOL. I actually wanted blue or yellow gas cans in 1 gallon size, but I couldn;t find any.


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## 1985gt

Im pretty sure ive seen blue and yellow in 1 gal before at menards. Could be wrong though. probably plastic though.


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