# PVC vs TPO?



## Tatnic

Any opinions on which should be spec'd and why? Is there any real compelling reason to use TPO? 

thanks.


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## Grumpy

Tpo is cheaper than PVC, seems more rigid as well. Not sure if the rigidity means it's better but in my unscientific puncture tests (smashing my keys against samples of equal thickness) TPO actually seems to be more puncture resistant. 

TPO has a bad name. Why? Because it's a fairly recent material and did have some failures with the first generation TPO. Also in very sunny environments TPO has been known to fail premature. I haven't seen much of that in the Chicago market though. 

We are currently promoting TPO as our base low slope roof system. If the customer wants a 20 year roof, I steer them towards PVC. PVC just offers more peace of mind. Our approach to everything, we want to do what's better, not cheaper. Since codes here have changed I foresee more people coming to the white side (tpo) and then we'll probably start to push PVC even harder, just so we can one-up the competition. I always want to be better than the competition.


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## rwolfe

Pvc holds up to most chemicals that may destroy the other materials. So if your near airport or have propability of chemical spills on roof. PVC makes sense.


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## rwolfe

Having said that, If you are considering a pvc, let me recommend fibertite. Say no to Durolast.


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## Tatnic

I'm definately considering TPO. My local roofer likes it and has been around for quite a while. 

One problem we have along the coast (aside from wind concerns) is seagulls. You know how they like to drop quahogs, crabs and lobsters onto hard surfaces? When they see a nice, white, flat roof they'll bombard it. That's not so bad, but when they get down there to start eating, they peck like hell with their sharp beaks trying to break apart the shells. I find it pretty neat how they pass along this knowledge to their offspring. They probably like the TPO too because its cooler on their feet. They've been known to poke a few holes through rubber, but I doubt seriously they could do much damage to TPO.


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## Grumpy

Interesting point you bring up of the holes. When trying to explain to customers that TPO is more resistant to puncutres then modified bitumen for example, when they say it's so thin, I allow them to smash my keys against samples of each tpo and modified. Obviously modified is very soft. In regards to rubber (epdm) that's not really a concern since modified is king around here and we don't often have to bid against epdm. 98% of the bids a customer is going to get (excet on engineer, architect or consulant specified jobs) for a low slope roof is going to be modified so that's what we have to sell against.


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## SinglePlyGuy

PVC is VASTLY superior to TPO...you really cannot compare the two as it is like apples to oranges.

I have 20+years exp with PVC and about 10 years with TPO. I have put down thousands of squares of both.

My firm actually worked with a few of the major manufacturers with their first generations of their respective TPOs.

TPO is a commodity and that is evident in the pricing.

PVC is more of a higher-end product with a proven track record.

The higher end PVC (Sarnafil and Fibertite specifically) have virtually unblemished histories of performance. 

There was some problems with a few PVCs many years ago (Trocal for one) where an unreinforced sheet was used and the sheet became brittle and split relentlessly. This was not common for PVC but seemed to stick in everyones mind....that product has long been off the market.

The welding of the two products is night and day.

PVC is much more user-friendly and has a more reliable and easily checked weld. An underheated seam will not bleed and can be probed and rewelded.

TPO is much more finicky and relies on a seasoned mechanic to get it right. Too hot and the material will burn and needs to be patched....too cold and you may get a false or "cold" weld that may appear sound during probing but will open down the road.

Dont let the promotion of all the "peel and stick" accessories fool you.... they are promoted as much to make more money for the manufacturer as they are to try and minimize the heat welding as much as possible.

Dont get me wrong, TPO has its place and "should" perform if installed correctly. We have many TPO roofs performing well. Then again, 90% of our work is thermoplastic and all my guys know is welding....

My first choice is PVC for my customers. I put PVC on my building.

Just my opinion...


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## Tatnic

SinglePlyGuy said:


> PVC is VASTLY superior to TPO...you really cannot compare the two as it is like apples to oranges.
> 
> I have 20+years exp with PVC and about 10 years with TPO. I have put down thousands of squares of both.
> 
> My firm actually worked with a few of the major manufacturers with their first generations of their respective TPOs.
> 
> TPO is a commodity and that is evident in the pricing.
> 
> PVC is more of a higher-end product with a proven track record.
> 
> The higher end PVC (Sarnafil and Fibertite specifically) have virtually unblemished histories of performance.
> 
> There was some problems with a few PVCs many years ago (Trocal for one) where an unreinforced sheet was used and the sheet became brittle and split relentlessly. This was not common for PVC but seemed to stick in everyones mind....that product has long been off the market.
> 
> The welding of the two products is night and day.
> 
> PVC is much more user-friendly and has a more reliable and easily checked weld. An underheated seam will not bleed and can be probed and rewelded.
> 
> TPO is much more finicky and relies on a seasoned mechanic to get it right. Too hot and the material will burn and needs to be patched....too cold and you may get a false or "cold" weld that may appear sound during probing but will open down the road.
> 
> Dont let the promotion of all the "peel and stick" accessories fool you.... they are promoted as much to make more money for the manufacturer as they are to try and minimize the heat welding as much as possible.
> 
> Dont get me wrong, TPO has its place and "should" perform if installed correctly. We have many TPO roofs performing well. Then again, 90% of our work is thermoplastic and all my guys know is welding....
> 
> My first choice is PVC for my customers. I put PVC on my building.
> 
> Just my opinion...


thanks, I am leaning towards PVC in fact for the same reeason you state, longer track record.


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## Ed the Roofer

Since I never put down any TPO, I was going to stay on the sideline, but I have a lot of experience with many brands of PVC and CSPE and CPA and others that are hybrids, which are not categorized as PVC, but should be.

(The "Others" did not want to get associated with the very old Trocal cracking failures)

Everything that I have read from very experienced applicators, whose judgment I trusy, pretty much all say the same thing, that PVC has a proven track record, while TPO has continually been changed, so you don't really know if the current chemical formulation is time tested yet.

Ed


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## Grumpy

This is the same as I have heard as well, ed. However I make this point.

If the customer is buying a 20 year roof system. Yes give them what's best, and that's PVC. If they are buy a 10 of 15 year roof system, TPO is totally adequate. It all depends what your customer is buying. 

LOL it's hard enough to get people to believe in single ply on the multi-family and residential side of the market when if they get 4 bids mine will likely be the only one for anything other than modified bitumen. They just don't understand it. Commercial is slightly better.


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## FLRoofPro

rwolfe said:


> Having said that, If you are considering a pvc, let me recommend fibertite. Say no to Durolast.


Noticed you don't care for Duro-Last. What problems have you had???


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## rwolfe

Primarily because I don't think roof assemblies should be that complicated. It is a gimicky product that doesn't weld a well as other pvc's (ie fibertite). The kicker to the gimicky idea is: Their sales reps roll around the country saying that Durolast will insure not only the roof assembly but all the contents inside the building up to xx million dollars. Can't remember what the number is but for some reason I'm thinking 10m.

That is a horrible way to try to get market share.


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## Ed the Roofer

Duro-Last welded quite well for me, especially after around 1988, when they reversed the course side to the bottom of the membrane instead of the top.

The warranty issue is backed by Chubb Insurance, if they still use the same insurance company and many other membranes offer similar marketing gimicks, if that is what it is, to make the choice of their product seem preferential also.

Ed


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## SinglePlyGuy

We tried DuroLast for a bit but didnt really buy into the "pre-fab" roof thing.

I dont recall a problem with the weldability of the product, but did not think the organization was on par with the other products in that price range.

Sales representation, tech support, warranty services, etc all seemed to be noticeably inferior to the other products.

That is why we decided to stop using the product.

I do see , from time to time, trucks and trailers around sporting the DuroLast logo, etc and they all seem to have Virginia plates on them.


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## FLRoofPro

Have around a 12 year history using Duro-Last. They have not had a solid rep in our area, but the support from their corporate plants has been excellent. Most responsive corporate offices I have dealt with for a major mfg. The pre-fab has always been a big seller for me. Easier on the crews too. Duro-Last will stay a top option in my low slope arsenal for sure.


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## Ed the Roofer

I think the opinion of the Duro-Last installation gets skewed by crews who are incapable or uncomfortable with knowing how to stretch out the bulkiness of the material after you unroll it from the baggy lump it comes shipped as.

I liked it, but I did NOT like the back-stabbing of the rep from my area, who, when they found out which jobs I was bidding on, would all of a sudden provide several othe D-L approved applicators to the contractor for alternative pricing.

Now, due to them being familiar with me, I still wound up getting the jobs, but at a cheaper price due to unqualified competitors bidding on an animal they were not famiiar with, just like when I first started off and learned the true hours of installation.

Ed


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## SinglePlyGuy

Yeah I just prefer roll goods.... the DL roof always seemed wrinkled...even after I bought their silly "membrane stretcher" contraption haha.


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## Ed the Roofer

SinglePlyGuy said:


> Yeah I just prefer roll goods.... the DL roof always seemed wrinkled...even after I bought their silly "membrane stretcher" contraption haha.


I was friends with the guy who invented that, errrr, should I say, the owner of the company that had an employee come up with the basic idea for the Grip Puller.

He now is the Iowa Rep.

Ed


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## rwolfe

I remember starting out, my foreman asked me to run down to the truck and get the rubber stretcher. Flipped over every half empty can of bull and moved every soggy box of hanks looking for that damn thing. I figured it would be next to the left handed seam roller. 

It was a good 10 minutes before I caught on. Imagine my surprise when I found out years later that Durolast had it the whole time.

Niche product for sure. Niche group who love's the stuff.

rw


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## Grumpy

How many man hours are lost each year to the "stretcher"? I had people try that with me once or twice in my early 20's. Usually my answer is "Go bleep yourself." when ever anyone asks for anything that streches anything. Every trade has a stretcher of some kind


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## rwolfe

For sure.:laughing:


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## RooferX

Hello, our experience and knowledge beyond asphalt roofing is limited, but we are leaning towards pvc for an upcoming project. PVC seems easy to work with and has many benefits. Thanks for the info on Durolast which we were considering. Anyone have any experience with Johns Manville, IB,,Gaf, or Carlisle? Manville is easily available to us at a nearby ABC Supply at about 70 cents a square foot. We are also considering the more expensive Fibertite or Sarnafil pvc roofing.

Also if attempting to go over asphalt roofing, what slip sheet material do you recommend to separate it from the incompatible pvc? synthetic underlayment? Poly sheeting, red rosin paper, or? I like the synthetic but since it would only be acting as a separation barrier over the asphalt and not placed directly over bare plywood, I was leaning towards red rosin paper for keeping costs down.

Thanks for the help guys!

Mike


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## Tatnic

RooferX said:


> Hello, our experience and knowledge beyond asphalt roofing is limited, but we are leaning towards pvc for an upcoming project. PVC seems easy to work with and has many benefits. Thanks for the info on Durolast which we were considering. Anyone have any experience with Johns Manville, IB,,Gaf, or Carlisle? Manville is easily available to us at a nearby ABC Supply at about 70 cents a square foot. We are also considering the more expensive Fibertite or Sarnafil pvc roofing.
> 
> Also if attempting to go over asphalt roofing, what slip sheet material do you recommend to separate it from the incompatible pvc? synthetic underlayment? Poly sheeting, red rosin paper, or? I like the synthetic but since it would only be acting as a separation barrier over the asphalt and not placed directly over bare plywood, I was leaning towards red rosin paper for keeping costs down.
> 
> Thanks for the help guys!
> 
> Mike


YOu should check to see how the existing roof is structurally rated before deciding what to do. If its currently overloaded you'll have to remove the asphalt to gain some capacity.


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## RooferX

Thanks for the response. Yes we have considered the load and was a factor in deciding on PVC which is fairly light (.3 pounds per sq foot). Not to complicate things, but this is for an old warehouse with a very low pitched roof towards one long side and a long gutter. Eventually, he will be doing a tear off when he gets the plans and money. He has a couple of leaks and the roof is very weathered. I was considering a temporary solution by buying used giant billboard pvc wraps that have advertising on 1 side, reflective white on the reverse side. They are 20 x 60 feet (we would use 4 manageable ones even though they have as large as 48 x 96 feet!) at only 8-10 cents a sq foot, can be heat welded or glued like pvc roofing, are uv resistant, and made to last a minimum of five years in harsh weather, but are only 20 mil thick.They weigh 1lb per sq yard, are flame retardant, and mildew resistant. They are much thicker and 7x stronger than traditional tough poly tarps but ony half to a third thickness of pvc roofing products. Later he would have the tear off using that giant tarp in effect as the 45 - 60ml pvc roofing was put in place. I was just trying to save any further damage and give him a low cost good temporary roof until the tear off can be done.But, I don't want it to deteriorate too quickly because of the asphalt against it. I was going to cut and seal the bad spots then lay down red rosin before putting down the pvc billboard tarp. When the tear off comes I was trying to help him in deciding which would be the best for the cost. JM is cheap and convenient as I sated before, but don't know if their pvc roofing has any issues or not and if the added cost is worth the top brands like Fibertite or not. 

At that time, new plywood and insulation panels would probably be put down.In cold climates would you bother with top roof panel insulation or just do a fire rated slip sheet and insulate from inside the rafters with R30+ and a 2' air gap for air circulation and condensation issues. Or both? Thanks again for any advice.


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## rwolfe

The cool thing about PVC is that it is resistent to most chemicals. Especially fibertite. You could consider using a fleece backed pvc and mopping it directly over the existing BUR if it is smooth enough. If not, you can mop a cover board down and adhere a non fleece pvc in place. If your looking to mechanically attach the system, using a cover board is a no brainer.

Regarding jm being cheaper than fibertite. If cheap is what your looking for, GAF has U.L's for Fleece backed tpo mopped with hot asphalt too. 
Also, if the warehouse has a metal deck and if cheap was how I needed to go, and most of the time it is, my bid would be a 1/2" high density wood fiberboard insulation mechanically attached and mechanically attach 12 foot sheets of 45 mil TPO down . Easy Peazy. Don't over think this. If the customer needs r-value, add it. No big deal. Just make sure to add the wood blocking at the leading edges. You can squeeze a 15 year NDL out of this system too.

The cool thing about tpo is 10-15 year warranties don't require clad metal at the edges. You can slap down a galvanized edge metal, prime with tpo primer then peel-n-stick 5.5" flashing strip down. Super fast.

Ahhhhh, I love warehouses. Especially metal decked warehouses.

One other thing. If you can overlay the existing, and use the tpo system as noted above, do the owner a favor and possibly set yourself up for a change order. Have an engineer go out and perform a moisture survey so your not going over any wet insulation (if there is any) If there isn't any than no need for it. Moisture survey should run you about 3.50 to 4.50 per square depending on how big the roof is. Also, if your using tpo, put a cheap coverboard on the walls and curbs to divorce the asphalt from the tpo. Nice thing here is you may not have to remove the existing wall flashing if you do this. Also, if using mansville (and some of the others will allow this if the job is big enough and you tell them they need to allow it) you can bag the flashings without a cover board. Flashing height can't be more than 24" though. I don't like doing this as it looks like crap, but if cheap is what your trying to achieve, this technique shouldn't be ignored.


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## rwolfe

One other thing. Don't hesitate to contact the Manufacturer to discuss these questions. They'll probably tell you the same thing, but atleast you got it from the horses mouth. Whatever you do, red rosin paper or any other slip sheet is not required. Also, I don't think those sheets you stated above are in any of the Major Manufacturer's U.L. listings. Besides, you don't need it if using fleece back anyway.


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## Tatnic

RooferX said:


> Thanks for the response. Yes we have considered the load and was a factor in deciding on PVC which is fairly light (.3 pounds per sq foot). Not to complicate things, but this is for an old warehouse with a very low pitched roof towards one long side and a long gutter. Eventually, he will be doing a tear off when he gets the plans and money. He has a couple of leaks and the roof is very weathered. I was considering a temporary solution by buying used giant billboard pvc wraps that have advertising on 1 side, reflective white on the reverse side. They are 20 x 60 feet (we would use 4 manageable ones even though they have as large as 48 x 96 feet!) at only 8-10 cents a sq foot, can be heat welded or glued like pvc roofing, are uv resistant, and made to last a minimum of five years in harsh weather, but are only 20 mil thick.They weigh 1lb per sq yard, are flame retardant, and mildew resistant. They are much thicker and 7x stronger than traditional tough poly tarps but ony half to a third thickness of pvc roofing products. Later he would have the tear off using that giant tarp in effect as the 45 - 60ml pvc roofing was put in place. I was just trying to save any further damage and give him a low cost good temporary roof until the tear off can be done.But, I don't want it to deteriorate too quickly because of the asphalt against it. I was going to cut and seal the bad spots then lay down red rosin before putting down the pvc billboard tarp. When the tear off comes I was trying to help him in deciding which would be the best for the cost. JM is cheap and convenient as I sated before, but don't know if their pvc roofing has any issues or not and if the added cost is worth the top brands like Fibertite or not.
> 
> At that time, new plywood and insulation panels would probably be put down.In cold climates would you bother with top roof panel insulation or just do a fire rated slip sheet and insulate from inside the rafters with R30+ and a 2' air gap for air circulation and condensation issues. Or both? Thanks again for any advice.


If you have a low slope roof or flat roof, which many of the old warehouses have, you may have to use tapered polyiso insulation in order to obtain a 2% (1:50) slope. That's considered the minimum slope of flat roofs for ponding reasons. But that's also pretty expensive, so if there's already a 2% or greater slope, then insulating from inside may be better and it does not have to be done simultaneously.


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## RooferX

Some clarification:

1) we are not going just after the cheapest way, but rather the most cost effective way for the best roof and protection. 

2) We have decided on pvc for several reasons but not the brand yet. Yes we are researching each co's recommendations for installation. We want the best value for the money and question any added value vs cost of say LM vs Fibertite and the other brands.

3) we are concerned about the Temporary pvc against the asphalt until he can do a full tear off.

4) We searched different cover boards and do not know if we should go this route with the added costs and if we will be able to reuse them when he does the tear off. Would you do that, rosin paper, nothing, or what for the temporary pvc over the asphalt?

5) while the pitch is low, it's not that low. I think it's about 2 in 40 = 1 in 20. The roof is about 40 wide x 115 long and tilts to one long side.It drops about 2 feet across that 40 wide. The ceilings go from 20 to 18 high roughly.Looks awkward inside, but looks more flat on the roof.

6) It is not insulated inside yet which was gutted and raw. We were thinking to insulate well on the inside and not from the roof side with panels with far lower r value at an added cost. We were suggesting new plywood (or metal?) decking followed by a fire rated slip sheet, then the pvc.

7) Because it is an old flat roof, there are heat trap and moisture problems. We put in 3 turbines for now where there were holes to relieve some of the problem and get some air circulation. If we were to put up a ceiling we are questioning flow even if insulation was backed off 2 inches from the underside of the ply wood.We are looking at possible solutions like Coravent. To further complicate things, 2/3 of the front portion of the building has large wood trusses with 2x8's running lengthwise supporting the roof, while the 1/3 rear has posts and large lengthwise beams 10ft off each wall. 2x8's running the traditional crosswise from wall to each large beam and 2 x 10's notched and dropped over the remaining middle 20 foot span from large beam to large beam . I was thinking maybe hanging the ceiling lower and leveling so it did not slope with the roof and the air space could then be vented. But for now, we are mostly concerned with the pvc roof and the temporary pvc installation.

8)The temporary pvc we are getting off the billboards is NOT fleece backed.

9) We would prefer mechanically attached vs glue/mopped fully adhered for both the temporary and permanent pvc later.

10) I do think a fire rated slip sheet is needed over the plywood before the pvc. Well, so far in my research IB shows this in their videos on their site. But my rosin was just a thought to get cheap protection for the temporary pvc so the asphalt does not deteriorate it. For the permanent install after the tear off we would think a much better fire rated slip sheet over the plywood or a good cover board over insulation panels if we were to insulate on top of the roof.

Thanks again to all for your thoughts and input.


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## rwolfe

Great response. I didn't see whether or not the existing roof is smooth BUR or Gravel surfaced.

If smooth. You CAN put fibertite over asphalt. Asphalt has no effect on that product. I've never heard of anybody putting a $.77 per foot product down as a temporary solution. Fibertite is a premium product. This doesn't make a lot of sense. 

The billboard material idea is interesting and funny. If you go that route, please come back and tell us about the experience. I live and work in Florida, I'd have never thought about that. Course we couldn't do that down here.

I'll tell you this though. As a temporary roof system, I would absolutely put mechanically attached TPO system over a cover board. This is the most cost effective way to install a Temp roof or a permanent roof. Most of the Manufacturer's carry manufactured vents that are pre flashed and can be welded to the tpo. This will help with the moisture problem.

If you are recovering the roof, I'm not sure the fire rated material is required. The existing roof assembly should be fire rated. There is not u.l. which indicates an existing roof over combustible deck, then fire rated material then new roof. Not only that, you said this is a temporary solution, but your planning this job out like it's going to be there a while. No need. TPO over recover board. 2.00-2.25 per s.f. installed. Lovely.


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## RooferX

Thanks Rwolfe, but I need to clarify more.........

The temporary bilboard pvc is only 8-10cents/ sq ft.

It will be on for at least a year maybe 2 so I am trying to plan as if it would have to last 5 years.

After the tear off, IF we were to use JM pvc, it runs a little over 70 cents a sq ft. at ABC Supply near us.

The recycled billboard pvc's ARE being use in Florida as the best tarps to protect from further rain/wind damage. They are being used around the globe as well. Some users have reported that they handled over 60pmh winds no problem. Think of the abuse many of these billboards in service along the roads of Florida and elsewhere have taken or are taking now.I had to do a bunch of research on a list of possible solutions before coming across these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/20-Mil-20-x-60-...in_0?hash=item3a4ec8c52d&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14

There's no gravel but the bur has many bubbles, ripples, and alagator cracks.

Couldn't we just mechanically attach the billboard pvc through the old bur and plywood? I guess the cover board would smooth it out for easier installation, but do you think it could it be reused when we do the tear off? But then again he really won't need it later once he does the complete tear off.Thus again I thought maybe just cheap rosin for now. How much does decent cover board cost per sq foot, say the real thin 1/4 inch stuff?

I thought most pvc roofing material were incompatible with asphalt or is the Fibertite you have used felt backed? Once again the final PVC be it JM,IB, Fibertite, or whatever will be put down from new plywood and the bur will be gone when he does the tear off. The existing roof system will be gone and replaced. 

It's only the lighter 20 mil billboard temporary pvc, with no felt back, that I question may not last that 1-2 years if it is incompatable with the asphalt. I may have to start calling manufacturers to answer that question, but I thought someone here may know or had experiences laying it directly over old asphalt. We were planning on heat welding prefab flashing pieces from these manufacturers to the billboard pvc to seal it well.

Are you saying you would just go with the tpo (or pvc as in our case) over cover board over the existing old plywood and old bur as a permanant solution?


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## Grumpy

rwolfe said:


> The cool thing about tpo is 10-15 year warranties don't require clad metal at the edges. You can slap down a galvanized edge metal, prime with tpo primer then peel-n-stick 5.5" flashing strip down. Super fast.
> 
> Ahhhhh, I love warehouses. Especially metal decked warehouses.


Just finished a 50 square exactly as you described. Were you watching us?


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## Grumpy

In regards to the underlayment, it doesn't have to be a cover board, but could be a polypropelene seperator matt that various manufacturers offer. This would be a labor and materials savings.


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## rwolfe

Fibertite is resistent to nearly all chemicals. It can be laid directly over asphalt. 
I'd love to know who is using billboard material for roofing in Florida. If we're calling this an emergency repair, that's one thing. If we're calling it a temporary roof that's a whole other deal. You should be able to put .5" wood fiber down and tpo system for $2 and change per square foot.
BTW you asked about cheap cost of board. I'm not sure if wood fiber comes in 1/4" but 1/2" is around $20 per square. 045 tpo around $39 per square. 

term bar the membrane at perimeter edges. flash walls and curbs per manufacturer's specs. good to go.

By the way. Does the bill board material weld where there will be seams?


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## RooferX

The billboard is basically pvc roofing material but thinner .020 vs .045-.050 but, about $10 a square or $500 for this guy's roof without the cover board. The $1000 xtra or so for the 1/2" cover board isn't bad and will lay better on it,and we will consider the extra $1500 for tpo. Or, if he plans on doing PVC after the tear off is he better just getting the pvc now and use it when he has the plans and money in place to do the full tear off? That would be about $3500 pvc materials (without flashings, hardware,etc.) if JM, more if Fibertite, vs $2000 TPO ,vs $500 for the billboard hmmmmmmmm..........he really wants to wait to put any money into the roof right now until plans are done and money is in place but needs to protect it and stop the leaks for now.

yes, you can heat weld the seams or glue just like pvc roofing

When you say Fibertite is resistant, are you referring to tpo or pvc fleece backed or not?


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## Grumpy

Wow Rwolfe, I want your prices. I am paying signifigantly higher than you for my tpo.


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## rwolfe

.37 for 45 mil tpo and 60 mil for .47

What are you guys paying?


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## Grumpy

.52 for 45 mil tpo on less than truck load quantities... and I shoped around for those prices. I was paying more than that previously. I've gotten quotes as low as .49 for 200+ square jobs. 

Do you buy direct from manufacturer or from a local distributor/supplier? What would you guesstimate as your yearly volume in terms of squares? We're a small peanut company so probably pay a penny less than a "cash" contractor would.


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## rwolfe

Local distributor.

350 square and up ship direct. Get 45 mil for .37 direct. .375 to .39 through distributor.


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## Grumpy

You obviously move a hell of alot more voume than I do.


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## tomdaleh

My company installs Conklin Roofing systems in the greater St Louis and surrounding areas. Conklin is heavy into the fluid coatings market but has been in the single-ply field for going on thirty-plus years. We install Conklin's single-ply Flexion system and often go up against the price differential between ours and the petroleum based products. Some benefits (that you are probably already aware of) that might sway potential residential customer to a PVC or TPO roof when in comparison to a petroleum based product are:

*White reflective single-plys generally have a reflectivity rating of 85% on average. Naturally what that means is all of the heat from the sun isn't being passed on to the living quarters unlike the petroleum based products which typically see UVL absorption rates of the mid 90 percent range.

*With this being said the energy savings alone will pay for a TPO or PVC system in 4 to 7 years in reduced air conditioning usage-not the case with a torchdown or similar product. 

*Many of these have a UL Class "A" fire resistance ratings meaning that it won't feed a fire unlike a petroleum product.

Price-wise it's hard to combat a $2500-$5000 hot tar roof; but having to shell that out every 3-5 years IF you get a good installation, the PVC or TPO roof would have more than likely already paid for itself and will last a good 20 years or more. It's an easier sell to a home owner who is making the long term investment than to a real estate investor who is just looking at the income producing aspect of it.

As far as PVC and TPO go, I've installed both but I find Conklin's Flexion single-ply system to be superior to that of Durabond's TPO. The Flexion system is 50 mil Dupont Elavoy modified PVC reinforced with an embedded polyester scrimm, the Durabond TPO contains no such reinforcement and isn't nearly as heavy duty thus puncture resistant. Once my customers look at the two products side by side they generally want the Flexion PVC system installed. 

But no matter which one you choose, a white reflective flat roof is the way to go.

Hope this helps.


----------



## rwolfe

I can appreciate your apparent loyalty to Conklin. Probably wouldn't talk so specifically about the type of quality the product posseses though. Conklin doesn't make their sheet. I believe dow does. Anyway, I agree with your assessment of the reflective system vs non reflective. But after reading the rest of the post, I'm ashamed to admit that I agree with anything you stated. I'm understanding why owners seek out out of state roofers to perform work in St. Louis. 

"Many of these have a UL Class "A" fire resistance ratings meaning that it won't feed a fire unlike a petroleum product" 

Actually all of them have class a assemblies. If they didn't they wouldn't be sold in the US.

"Price-wise it's hard to combat a $2500-$5000 hot tar roof; but having to shell that out every 3-5 years IF you get a good installation, the PVC or TPO roof would have more than likely already paid for itself and will last a good 20 years or more".

This is so far off base I don't know where to start. So I won't.

"Durabond TPO contains no such reinforcement and isn't nearly as heavy duty thus puncture resistant."

Look, I've never heard of Durabond but this much is true. Every TPO in the market place has polyester reinforcement scrim embedded within. Some PVC's have a tighter thread count than the average tpo. Fibertite has the tightest of any on the market. But your comment about TPO not having scrim is interesting to say the least. You may wanna check your facts. Or stop using unsupported flashing membrane in the field of the roof.

I appreciate you extending this thread. But your comments are way off base. We've had some lively discussion regarding the usefulness of TPO vs EPDM in some other threads. But to brag up a third rate product that is marketed by a networking company is completely uncalled for. 

Sounds like you like roofing though. I'm happy about that.


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## tomdaleh

I don't have any more loyalty to one product over another, I field test competing products and use what I find works best. Flexion is made for Conklin by Dupont. I wasn't aware of St Louis owners seeking out of state roofers, unless your referring to those workers with green cards, and then again where isn't that happening?

I'm curious to hear your logic on how a hot tar roof is going to pay for itself in energy savings and last as long as a PVC membrane? 

And lastly I would invite you to check out the Durabond TPO Pro product on the web and then do a side by side comparison with the "third rate" Flexion. Then if you want I would be glad to take you out to job sites with the two products where you can see for yourself so you're not refuting postings with just opinions. 

And yes I like roofing, doesn't sound you do though.


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## Grumpy

Reflectivity might not be so important to that person in Alaska who is trying to capture heat. I've even read studies that say that even for Chicago reflectivity is overrated because we generally heat more than we air condition.

Having said that, I still opt for reflectivity, because the roof is generally a system that includes insulation. Therefore we get the insulating values we need in the winter time and the reflective values we need in the summer. 


IN regards to the lack of scrim in the specific membrane you mentioned, Tom, I can not comment. I am not familiar with that brand. However every piece of tpo and pvc I have laying around my office all have either a polyester or fiberglass reinforcing scrim. To be honest the only non reinforced tpo I have seen in the flashing membrane.

In regards to the thickness, the tpo typically starts at .040 and goes up all the way to .080. We generally prefer the .060 which is some pretty durable stuff! 

I'm not trying to knock conklin, I didn't even know they made/sold a single ply until today. I just wanted to set a few things straight for the record. I'm not sure if you went to the recent conklin sales training and got any sort of false information. 

In regards to "hot tar" roofs. A coal tar pitch roof when properly installed will easily last as long as a pvc roof maybe longer with proper maintenance. During WWII they used to build the roofs over the factories to retain water, so every roof had several inches to several feet of standing water. All those roofs/swimming pools were coal tar pitch. In regards to the energy savings, well see my first paragraph, but also they can be coated. But you're a Conklin guy, you already know that. 

Unless of coarse you are calling modified bitumen "hot tar". In my general area a modified bitumen roofing system is the most typical for residential for sure. It's also still fairly common on commercial too. Most guys are selling the 10-12 year assemblies. However there are 15 and 20 year specifications for modified bitumen as well. When I install modified bitumen, I install no less than the 15 year spec, and usually give and option for the 20 year spec. Why doesn't modified bitumen roofs last any longer than the average 10-12 years? Because the roofs are being installed to a 10-12 year spec. Cheap home/building owners do it to themselves! Then agin I do totally agree PVC will outlast modified bitumen any day.

The green card comment made me chuckle, I think that most of them don't posess such cards.


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## tomdaleh

I worked for a building contractor for 5 years installing Conklin roofs before striking out on my own in St Louis. The contractor has been installing them for the last 21 years and has since retired from the carpentry but still installs the Conklin fluid systems from mid-March (depending on the weather) through mid October. 

He was never involved with all of Conklin's multi-level marketing stuff; he was looking for a good product for customers with flat roof issues when he came across Conklin at a building trade show back 21 years ago or so. He did his research for about a year before trying their products and hast been using them ever since. He tries other products as well but has yet to get the performance he does with the Conklin products. He's got Conklin fluid roofs going on 19 years without a recoat (a recoat is usually recommended between the 12th & 14th year). I now sub-contract for him at times down in the Southeastern Missouri area.

The island heat effect during the summer months in the St Louis area is a big draw for the white reflective roof. I often bid hot tar roofs where the crew went to the local roofing supply house, rented the "kettle" and started roofing with mop in hand. Those are the 3-5 year hot tar jobs. It's often hard to compete with the pricing on those jobs unless you educate the consumer on the energy, environmental, and return on investment benefits.

Yeah, I would imagine the bitumen would be ideal in the Chicago area; I did my basic training at Great Lakes during the winter of '86! Wow, talk about cold!!!


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## Grumpy

The hot tar jobs you are talking about is what I call a reglaze and yeah I'd agree that's a 3-5 year job and a complete waste of money. All it is is a smear of hot tar over the existing roof. It'll fill some cracks and voids in the roof surface but not much else. 

Problem with the modified bitumen is not the procudt, but the fact that any tom dick and harry can pick it up at home depot or any big box store. Their lack of training has given it a bad name. Not to mention the numerous historic land marks recently burned down by roofers and their torches. The media loves it! Modified bitumen can perform well when properly installed, but it rarely is ever properly installed. I can talk for days of the disasters I have seen with mod bit. 


That's why we typically opt for the white single ply now. It meets the current energy reflectivity requirements, goes down a little bit faster, and is not associated with cheap disasterous roofing. I am going to meet someone today who found me in this forum on this very thread last week and wants an estimate for TPO or PVC. That's at 1:30 pm.


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## JWilliams

In my area I've never seen any mod bits for sale in the big box stores. ive only seen 90 mineral rolled roofing and endless buckets of bull.


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## Grumpy

Home Depot, Lowes and possibly Menards in my area all sell modified bitumen off the shelf to anyone and usually have a torch display right next to the rolls. Home depot for sure sells 90#, but not sure if I have seen it anywhere else. Lots of 90# roofs in Chicago, that's for sure.


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## JWilliams

i went to upper alabama once for my boss to put a roof on an addition on his mother in laws house. he gave me his credit card to buy the supplies. no roofing supply house anywhere in the town. i went to home depot and they had rolls of mod bit.. but no base sheet?! i asked the guy working in the section and he said hes never heard of putting a base sheet down when installing mod bits. i told him and the people around there must be out of their minds!


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## Grumpy

They sell base at the home depot's here, but then again I have seen several roofs with the mod bit torched directly to the plywood.


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## JWilliams

ive torched directly to plywood one time. i was nervous as hell. it was a screened in backporch with exposed ceilings and the homeowner didnt want nails poking thru the wood. so he said put it down without the base sheet


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## rwolfe

Addressing your questions to me:


I'm not argueing the reflectivity of tpo vs bur. You mentioned in your previous post "Price-wise it's hard to combat a $2500-$5000 hot tar roof; but having to shell that out every 3-5 years IF you get a good installation, the PVC or TPO roof would have more than likely already paid for itself and will last a good 20 years or more".

I was stating that I completely disagree that a BUR lasts only 3-5 years. This is why I made the comment about owners seeking out of state contractors. If your installing BUR roofs that are lasting 3-5 years that's a problem. A big problem. This shouldn't be that hard to understand. My
apologies if it does.

Finally, I love roofing. 

Conklin apparently sells pesticides and garden supplies. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just find it Interesting.


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## tomdaleh

:thumbup:


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## rwolfe

For some reason your post is not visible to me on this site, but I read what you said in my email.

I've never heard of smearing asphalt only. I didn't know that was even an option. I'd certainly not include that in a conversation about roofing. Because it's not. The people that are smearing asphalt and calling it roofing are the same people who are buying modified at home depot and catching roof's on fire. 
I think I 'm speaking from a plane than you in terms of what kind of business we do or work for. We do not put roof's on without a Manufacturer's Warranty or without a Contractor's Warranty. Mod BUR or Single Ply. 

You'll have to excuse my rudeness with regards to Conklin. It's only because I've been roofing in a bottle for the last 15 years. Never heard of Conklin. Look them up and I see they specialize in Marketing, Networking, Farm Equipment, pesticides and roofing. Interesting combonation. They have chosen a nice PVC sheet to push. Dow makes the KEE sheet for Seamans as well. There is not a better single ply product on the market. Which is kind of what you originally said, but you called it a Conklin product. That's what through me off.

Smearing asphalt should never be compared to KEE. It's like comparing pizza to poop. Doesn't make sense.


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## tomdaleh

I agree with you 100% on the "smearers"; we still have to compete with those roofers out there who have no manufacturers warranty or otherwise. And its funny how often consumers will roll the dice and go with them only 3-5 years later are back in the same situation and the guy is no where around to service his product. 

Everyone I've talked that installs the Conklin Flexion PVC 50 mil single-ply is getting really good long-term results. Over this past Thanksgiving week I had to use the Weatherbond 45 mil TPO, and while it's a quality product in it's own right I'm sure, it just didn't measure up to what we typically install with the Flexion.

I'm continually looking for other products to compliment our lineup, especially for fluid applications in the winter, although I realize they won't necessarily be as environmentally friendly as I like. We do flat roof repairs on all types of flat roofs but only install the white reflective coatings or single-plys. Our Conklin coatings are elostomeric acrylics and as such water based. Our new install market is the "environmentally conscious" consumer. 

Appreciate your insights and look forward to hearing more from you.


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## IDM ROOF

What cost are you seeing these days for TPO and PVC (material)? My largest exposure to PVC is Duro Last. I've been told to expect a slighly higher material cost, but a lower labor cost for Duro Last, as compared to TPO. We are looking at re-roofing a 250,000 sf warehouse in SoCal. Thanks.


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## peterjames

Most people use 45- to 90-ml single-ply PVC, TPO or EPDM 1-mm-thick pond liner to waterproof the surface. Some people also use built-up heat-applied high-polymer asphalt or SBS modified bitumen with root barriers. Before installing your roof, you can use a technique called Electric Field Vector Mapping to see that there are no leaks. This technique costs just $1 per square foot and is 100 percent accurate in detecting pin-hole-sized leaks, so it is highly recommended that you hire a knowledgeable contractor to provide this service, even if you're installing the roof primarily yourself.


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## RooferJim

torching right to plywood, thats just F%$ing crazy dude. roofing torches at home depot is also very crazy. You have to have a very careful and trained crew for a good mod bit job. Im my area it is almost extinct because of bad press and clown roofers burning down buildings. The building with the big Citgo sign next to fenway park almost burned down because the roofers came back after lunch half drunk and got the cant strip to smolder, it caught fire at night and set off the sprinklers and wrecked havok with the escalotors in the building. My cousin was on that job, large unnamed union contractor. If you try to roof in Boston without a union card you could end up "swiming with the fishes" so to speak. RIP torchdown


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## Grumpy

RooferJim I have seen it before MANY times. LOL see guys torching to plywood curbs too. Like you said Just F-ing crazy. The last torch job we did someone caught a pallet on fire. Nobody knows how, reminisent of the "not me" ghost from family circus, come to find out one guy who has been fired was hoarsing around. A torch is not a toy. That's when I really really made the switch to single ply, before we just kinda toyed around with it.


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## davidjl

*PVC is inferior to quality EPDM and TPO*

Our family started in roofing in 1919, seen a lot have done a lot. Check out our support www.lottescompanies.com and www.lottesroofing.com

Did over a million square feet of PVC in the midwest in the 1980, most of which had failures.

Quality products with and quality installations of EPDM and TPO and far better, and not as costly.

Plenty of documentation on EPDM, TPO and PVC on the web, PRO and CON, but from my experience, EPDM, TPO and PVC in that order if your wanting the best performance as well as cost effectiveness for your customers.


Respectfully

David J Lottes


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## davidjl

*Just a bit more on Roofing EPDM, TPO and PVC materials*

http://www.epdmroofs.org/


http://www.watergardencreations.com/main/MajorPVC.pdf


http://www.watergardencreations.com/main/PVCPoison.pdf


http://www.watergardencreations.com/main/Nike.pdf


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## Ed the Roofer

Welcome to the site David. 

Please post a bit about yourself in the Introduction section of the forum. It would give the rest of us a chance to know you a bit better and more personally.

Ed


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## RooferJim

Hey Lottes, what type of pvc roofing did you have the problems with ? 


RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## RooferJim

what label was the Austrian membrane under ? was it Plymouth Rubber? Trocal I can understand , they had massive problems everywhere because they had a nonreinforced sheet, the roofs would shatter like glass in cold weather. Sarnafil I really find it hard to believe, they have always made a good sheet and stood by the product. I recently did repairs on an old sarnafil roof that was installed in 1979. You could still weld to it after a little MEK and some cleaning. I looks like it could easily go another ten years. Hypalon "JP Steavens" also gave thermoplastic membrane a bad name because its unweldable when it gets old. TPO ? who knows.
PS
That envirormental group you posted links of is a known group of nut jobs, there arguments can all be debunked but I do not have time for that here.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## RooferJim

I have never seen a problem with Sarnafil . Could you answer the question and be more specific ? There details have not changed very much in over thirty years. They have made the membrane formular since the early 60's starting in Switzerland. EPDM membrane, Calisle, Firstone and all the rest have changed there specs and products many many times. I also install a lot of EPDM , the seams reley on glue and tape, they can not withstand ponding water over time unlike a welded seam. There a comodity product thats primary benefit is cost. TPO is still unproven, and there are some reports of issues already.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## rwolfe

What the heck is going on here. EPDM is superior to PVC if installed correctly? Common. Really??

This isn't the diy network or the BoB villa website

Installed a million square feet of pvc and most had failures?? How many square feet did you install before you realized you aren't qualified to be installing it?

Then you rank the single plys from first to worst. EPDM TPO PVC. Really??
Then you include Sarnafil (arguably the worlds most advanced and reliable single ply roof product) into the category that contains trocal and JP. Really? Ever heard of G410?? How about Fibertite?? If not, lookem up. Especially the G410 by sarnafil.

Then I go to your website to try to get an idea of how someone could make these wild accusations. After navigating through the pond lining distribution, roof distribution, roof installer, roof consulting stuff, I see a link that says why epdm is better that PVC, BUR and Modified Roofs. Can't wait to see this. Click on the link to see an article about hail resilience. Wow. I was wondering how EPDM is superior to PVC, modified and BUR. It just needs to be installed right. 

Roofing really isn't very complicated. not a lot has changed in terms of the basics of our industry. But to say EPDM is preferable over say......Fibertite or,,,,,Sarnafil,,,,,,,,,,,,well that is completely outlandish.


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## whitcoroofing

Thermoplastic polyolefin, or TPO, is the fastest-growing segment of the commercial and industrial roofing industries. Fueling this growth is the increased use of TPO in southern climates, where reflective, energy-efficient and cool roof products are becoming the norm.

Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) is a trusted membrane that has been performing admirably for decades in the European market and in North America. PVC also offers excellent resistance to rooftop chemicals, including acids, oils and greases.

Typically PVC would be installed at restaurants, industrial applications, airports, etc. Unless you fall into these categories, there really is no reason to incur the additional costs associated with PVC.

There are many different manufacturers of TPO and each one has different quality control procedures and requirements for contractors to become "authorized applicators". We would recommend Carlisle. They offer warranties ranging from 15-30 yrs. Many of which are NDL (no dollar limit), total system warranties.

Whitco Roofing, Inc. 

http://www.whitcoroofing.com


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## RooferJim

before using TPO you may want to check into a bit. There have been some serious issues, unlike time tested PVC.

http://www.mrca.org/i4a/headlines/headlinedetails.cfm?id=1060


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## Roof MD

IDM ROOF said:


> What cost are you seeing these days for TPO and PVC (material)? My largest exposure to PVC is Duro Last. I've been told to expect a slighly higher material cost, but a lower labor cost for Duro Last, as compared to TPO. We are looking at re-roofing a 250,000 sf warehouse in SoCal. Thanks.


We install both TPO and PVC and I am very familiar with Durolast's pricing and would have to say that I completely disagree with that assessment. The labor is still there for durolast, it's just in some warehouse instead of on the roof. Then the roof has to be boxed and shipped. Durolast is great at marketing, but the product is not as good as some of the KEE products out there. If cost is an issue, I would recommend a cost competitive TPO like GAF. Go with a 60 mil. TPO vs. PVC on a job that size could save over $100,000. Have you also looked into coating the roof as an option.


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## Oklahoma Area

The rigid TPO makes detailing harder. TPO tends to “tent” out away from the flashings. PVC has the advantage here.
TPO’s long term reparability is terrible when trying to heat weld the seams back together. PVC has the advantage here.
There are differences in PVC sheets. Sarnafil and Fibertite are most recommended if you talk to any roofing consultant about single ply PVCs. Fibertite has a thick scrim for outstanding puncture resistance, but sacrifices waterproofing polymer content. Sarnafil does not have the super scrim, but has about the greatest record among single ply. 
The most important considerations need to be the use of a rigid cover board regardless of the system you choose. With a rigid cover board, you achieve outstanding puncture resistance, fire resistance, etc.


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## Oklahoma Area

Cover board, cover board, cover board. You always need a rigid cover board.


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## Oklahoma Area

rwolfe said:


> What the heck is going on here. EPDM is superior to PVC if installed correctly? Common. Really??
> 
> This isn't the diy network or the BoB villa website
> 
> Installed a million square feet of pvc and most had failures?? How many square feet did you install before you realized you aren't qualified to be installing it?
> 
> Then you rank the single plys from first to worst. EPDM TPO PVC. Really??
> Then you include Sarnafil (arguably the worlds most advanced and reliable single ply roof product) into the category that contains trocal and JP. Really? Ever heard of G410?? How about Fibertite?? If not, lookem up. Especially the G410 by sarnafil.
> 
> Then I go to your website to try to get an idea of how someone could make these wild accusations. After navigating through the pond lining distribution, roof distribution, roof installer, roof consulting stuff, I see a link that says why epdm is better that PVC, BUR and Modified Roofs. Can't wait to see this. Click on the link to see an article about hail resilience. Wow. I was wondering how EPDM is superior to PVC, modified and BUR. It just needs to be installed right.
> 
> Roofing really isn't very complicated. not a lot has changed in terms of the basics of our industry. But to say EPDM is preferable over say......Fibertite or,,,,,Sarnafil,,,,,,,,,,,,well that is completely outlandish.


 Sarnafil all the way.


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## MattAngelly

*Tpo vs pvc*

While Pvc has the longer track record, I have been installing TPO systems for almost ten years now and have had very few issues and a lot of very happy customers. 

You can read all about TPO roofing systems here... http://www.solomoncontractingstl.com/FAQRetrieve.aspx?ID=49571&Q=

http://www.solomoncontractingstl.com


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## lshiffri

This is an interesting exchange. Does anyone here still do tar and gravel instead of PVC? Anyone feel strongly that tar and gravel is still a good flat-roof solution? Thanks.


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## 1985gt

lshiffri said:


> This is an interesting exchange. Does anyone here still do tar and gravel instead of PVC? Anyone feel strongly that tar and gravel is still a good flat-roof solution? Thanks.


We use to do a lot of Asphalt and gravel roofs. The trend has been shifted to EPDM and TPO roofs for our area, and a few PVC's thrown in. I still like a asphalt and gravel roof over all roof systems for various reasons.


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## Clyde

*Roofer/CA, OR, MO, HI*

Aloha,
 No one asked me but I'll throw in my $.02 worth anyway. I first started with HYPALON, then to CPA and finally to virgin PVCs. Wow what a difference! There was a day when JP Stevens was considered by many to be a great roof along with BONDCOAT. But the truth of the matter is PVC (reinforced) from an applicators standpoint is the best. TPO has had so many sales of the last attempt that manufacturers had sitting in a warehouse some where, it's not funny, of course there's no warranty on that material! As my father taught me, "it takes a long time to build a good reputation- and you can get a bad one over one "rainy" night. Also the most effective sales tactic I've had was with a sample of a seamed piece of any other roofing material vs. the same seamed sample of PVC. Let the customer try to pull that apart with their hands, heck let two of them try. This is especially effective if you weld it in front of them. 
Just sayin'


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## RooferJim

Want to see what happens to Carlisle TPO ?

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.478690225569912.1073741830.304523049653298&type=3


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## 1985gt

That's odd, but it is 45 mil. Seems odd that it's only wearing out in some areas.


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## EssentialFlatRoofing

rwolfe said:


> Having said that, If you are considering a pvc, let me recommend fibertite. Say no to Durolast.


Just curious, why say no to Durolast?


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## 1985gt

Because it's probably one of the worst membranes out there, ranks up there with hypolon.


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## EssentialFlatRoofing

Fair enough. I guess far too many people use it though.


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## 1985gt

Yes a lot of people do use it. It's cheap. Generally no tear off involved. The roof comes to you in a package, and it's mechanically attached. So will very little labor they are pretty cheap to the customer. The problem being the very thin membranes and how they get brittle generally under 10 years.


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## rwolfe

They go to market by selling the warranty that comes with a roof. Smoke and mirror niche product. Just like TPO, doesn't have a track record of successful performance using the same product formulation. Bad news.


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## TedLeger

*PVC vs. TPO*

I like the advantage of how long PVC lasts over TPO, but it depends on how much someone is willing to pay for the roof. From everything that I know about PVC, it is going to last at least 5-10 years longer than TPO. Both are highly resistant to punctures and tearing, but PVC is usually thicker, and stronger.

One thing with TPO, the sheets are usually wider, and because of this when you add a TPO roof, it ends up going fast every time. PVC has a variety of widths, so it depends on the width that you purchase as to the speed in which it goes on.

One thing with PVC, it is generally thicker than TPO. I am not sure if you know what walking a sheet means, but sometimes when the sheets aren't lining up correctly because of various reasons (roof itself isn't straight for example) - then you can cheat the sheets by not screwing the sheet down to the roof, but just stitching a few sheets together, and then pushing them over or pulling them in. With TPO it is easier to do this since the sheets aren't as thick, whereas with PVC, it takes a few extra sheets to walk it in a certain direction. 

Again, it all depends on how much someone is willing to pay, but TPO is still a good choice for flat roofs, etc.. if you don't mind replacing it more often. Generally has a lifespan of 10-15 years.


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## 1985gt

PVC is no thicker then TPO, in fact TPO has a 80 mil sheet...


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## TedLeger

1985gt said:


> PVC is no thicker then TPO, in fact TPO has a 80 mil sheet...


I didn't say it ALWAYS is thicker, but generally, you do find it to have a heavier guage membrane than TPO. Don't take my word for it, look it up online. Google "Is PVC thicker than TPO" and you will find that I am not wrong.

In fact, TPO has many more cases of crazing and splitting than PVC. TPO is sold far more only because it is cheaper, not better. Again, if you don't believe that, look it up.


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## 1985gt

TedLeger said:


> I didn't say it ALWAYS is thicker, but generally, you do find it to have a heavier guage membrane than TPO. Don't take my word for it, look it up online. Google "Is PVC thicker than TPO" and you will find that I am not wrong.
> 
> In fact, TPO has many more cases of crazing and splitting than PVC. TPO is sold far more only because it is cheaper, not better. Again, if you don't believe that, look it up.



I stand corrected I see now GAF and Versico both offer a 80 mil PVC sheet.

PVC Sizes 50,60,80
TPO Sizes 45,60,80 for Versico Gaf has a 50 instead of 45 and a 70
mill sheet>

Seems to be about the same sizes don't you think?

TPO does have a bad track record, but so did PVC when it was "new" plus you have to lump dura last in the PVC category. They have some of the thinnest sheet 32 mil. and possible the worst. I don't need google to tell me that.


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## TedLeger

*Reply*



1985gt said:


> I stand corrected I see now GAF and Versico both offer a 80 mil PVC sheet.
> 
> PVC Sizes 50,60,80
> TPO Sizes 45,60,80 for Versico Gaf has a 50 instead of 45 and a 70
> mill sheet>
> 
> Seems to be about the same sizes don't you think?
> 
> TPO does have a bad track record, but so did PVC when it was "new" plus you have to lump dura last in the PVC category. They have some of the thinnest sheet 32 mil. and possible the worst. I don't need google to tell me that.


Not arguing with you on any of that. You obviously have put up quite a few roofs in your lifetime. From what I have seen the pvc and tpo have the same mil sheets, but the my main point was PVC usually has plasticizers added to the membrane, so it doesn't make it thicker, but there is more substance to the sheet. Again, I can tell you have a lot of experience by the posts that you have put up here, so not challenging what you are saying, just adding to it. I guess my main point was that PVC, though flexible, has more substance, so when you are trying to walk the sheet because of a default in the roof, it doesn't move as much as the TPO.

Not the biggest fan of Dural-Last myself, but I still think it is acceptable if absolutely necessary. Some have had problems with it in the past though, so I understand. I just never had issues with it I guess. Would prefer working with something else though.


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## 1985gt

Oh don't get me wrong. PVC's area great sheet but every sheet has their up sides and down sides. Every sheet has had a bad rap at one point in time or another. PVC's are expensive though, it's like a Cadillac. TPO has gotten better I feel in the last few years, but you are correct they are harder to work with as in flexibility. I feel TPO rolls out much better. We mainly do fully adhered but we do have a couple rhino bond machines for mechanically attach roofs. Probably one of the fastest systems I've ever put on. Only time will tell how well the welds hold on the plates. We have a few coming up on 5 years that were done in TPO.

As far as duralast, I've never seen a good one lol. They are on my list of bad roofing systems, along with SPF and Hypalon.


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## DCIChris

We've done quite a few TPO roofs over the last 15 or so years. I would say 99% have held up without major issues. We have Sandy to thank for the 1%. Mainly all have been GAF with some Carlisle, Versico, Genflex thrown in there. 

Now, that's not to say there hasn't been issues. I would agree rhino bond is definitely a great attachment method; fast and seems to have the characteristics of fully adhered. Time will tell.

When it comes to fully adhered don't touch water based adhesives. Low VOC although better for the environment have their own application restrictions and quirks. So we tend to stay with rhino bond and MA here in the northeast when temperatures and conditions (eg re-roof) are not ideal.

We've also had a lot of experience with PVC and the only thing is the scaling effect seems to be it's only long term issue. Which as you see in some other posts. This appears to come from the plasticizers and the long term exposure to UV. 

But price is king these days and TPO is just as reliable for us as PVC.

True, if your crews are not trained properly you do end up with a cold weld here and there but that's not the problem of the sheet. We don't sell a roof without including/offering a maintenance plan. Maintenance and training are key to any roof.


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## shane567

*PVC crew Wanted*

We have a 100 sq PVC project in southwest ohio. A mechanicaly fastened system over two layers of two inch iso. If anyone knows of or has a good crew to perform the install in early September 2014, please forward my email address along to them. [email protected].


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## 1985gt

100 sq isn't worth the travel time.


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