# Lightweight EPDM systems



## shazapple

Hello all, this thread is a continuation of my previous question.
http://www.roofingtalk.com/f7/low-slope-metal-roof-sealing-cap-1505/

It is a typical warehouse type building. Square, 1/12 slope... To reroof this we would typically go with a Carlisle Fleeceback EPDM membrane and 4" EPS fully adhered. Since it is a rather large building I'd like to open it up to other systems. I was thinking of the Firestone Invisiweld (mechanically attached). Any others you might recommend?


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## Grumpy

Why would you fleeceback over EPS? Fully adhered EPS? Areyou using hot tar? I've only ever used EPS in mechanically attached. I think if the substrate is adequate, mechanically attached may be the way to go. You can still likely get a 20 year NDL with .060. 

As for the invisiweld system. I have never done it myself. I know a few guys here in the forum have. I also know it's a fairly new technology like 8 or 9 years old, or maybe even less because I didn't actually start seeing it till about 6 years ago at the trade shows. I've got a hesitation to weld the membrane from the top down. I'd like to see how those welds look in 15 years from date of installation. Seems to me like it's another one of those systems where people will be saying in the forums "There were some odd systems back then." 

FUlly adhered seems like over kill. I bid a couple jobs for a consultant who wanted fully adhered on everything. When I asked why, he said because if the customer balked at the price he could reduce the price to mechanically attached. WTF kind of logic is that. He ended up awarding me a job then asking for a 7% kick back. I told him to shove it.


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## 1985gt

I am wondering about this also? You cant mop EPS anyway it will melt.


Couple options

Flue fill EPS, Coverboard then F/A EPDM,TPO or PVC. 

Flue Fill EPS, Coverboard then M/A EPDM, TPO or PVC.

Flue Fill EPS, Coverboard then BUR/modbit/tourch.

Flue Fill EPS, Coverboard then Invisaweld or Rhinobond.

You will notice I have flute fill in each one. You have to otherwise you have that hollow area. I assume the building is insulated under deck. Then you attach a 4" EPS spanned across the ribs and leave that gap. Put extra holes in the valleys of the metal panels to me that is a problem. The air gap that is.

We have used the Rhinobond system a number of times. The machine is expensive but it really makes the install quick. As far as how good it is, I am kind of with grumpy but it seems to do real well. Good wind ratings and such. I don't think the welds will ever have a problem. You have to calibrate the machine twice a day to make sure your getting a proper weld. 

You generally use less screws depending on building height and area. Plus no glue except walls and curbs if you choose. So it generally gives it a good option to a EPDM roof its one more trick in the arsenal if you know what I mean. Some people want a TPO roof but get shy because of the cost. This offers a TPO roof at close to EPDM price.


@ grumpy,

He has all the wrong reasons. I personally do not like M/A Systems except rhino bond. I never understood why you would drive screws in a perfectly good membrane. We F/A almost everything save for a the Rhinobond jobs we have done.


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## shazapple

We usually go with the EPS/fleeceback on pre-fab metal buildings because they are poorly insulated and not meant to take a whole lot of additional weight. The insulation and fleeceback are both fully adhered with adhesive. 

We always go fully adhered for wind uplift and to avoid thermal breaks. You add up the cross section of the screws in a M.A. system and you have a pretty big chuck of metal conducting heat out of your building! That being said, the current metal roof will need additional fastening to the purlins, so a M.A. system may kill two birds with one stone. 

@ 1985gt, Why use the coverboard, and what kind? The building is very poorly insulated inside, maybe R5, but the original intention was to use flute fill anyway. 

I wouldn't want to go with modbit, since the reasoning behind the EPS/Single ply is because it is lightweight. 

So the Rhinobond requires a machine? Any manufacturer certification as well? I have heard of that system but never seen it, so chances are there wouldn't be any people around here who have the equipment (there are only a handful with the Carlisle equipment).


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## 1985gt

shazapple said:


> We usually go with the EPS/fleeceback on pre-fab metal buildings because they are poorly insulated and not meant to take a whole lot of additional weight. The insulation and fleeceback are both fully adhered with adhesive.
> 
> We always go fully adhered for wind uplift and to avoid thermal breaks. You add up the cross section of the screws in a M.A. system and you have a pretty big chuck of metal conducting heat out of your building! That being said, the current metal roof will need additional fastening to the purlins, so a M.A. system may kill two birds with one stone.
> 
> @ 1985gt, Why use the coverboard, and what kind? The building is very poorly insulated inside, maybe R5, but the original intention was to use flute fill anyway.
> 
> I wouldn't want to go with modbit, since the reasoning behind the EPS/Single ply is because it is lightweight.
> 
> So the Rhinobond requires a machine? Any manufacturer certification as well? I have heard of that system but never seen it, so chances are there wouldn't be any people around here who have the equipment (there are only a handful with the Carlisle equipment).


The ones we have done we used the flute fill then just 1/2 of Fiberboard. Yes most of them are poorly insulated. I wonder what the weight difference per R value between EPS and ISO would be. 

4" EPS (using 3.85 per ") =15.4

To get 15.4 you would need 2.5 " of ISO (R 15.3) 

Then you could screw it to the existing metal then use a EPDM glue.

I forgot about the Spot Shot adhesive. I didn't realize you could use it with EPS. 

As far as Rhino bond, Yes you need a special machine. Also training come's in very handy with it as screw patters change for that attachment and even more so in to metal building as you need to hit the perlins. 

Im not sure if there are other people who make the system besides Olympic Fasteners. I would guess there is and I would think they are all about the same. You may be able to demo one and they will assist in the training also.


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## Grumpy

1985gt said:


> @ grumpy,
> 
> He has all the wrong reasons. I personally do not like M/A Systems except rhino bond. I never understood why you would drive screws in a perfectly good membrane. We F/A almost everything save for a the Rhinobond jobs we have done.


If the screw is in the seam, what does it matter? The water won't get to the screw unless the seam fails and if the seam fails you are Effed regardless if it is MA or FA. 

I am not a fan of MA systems where you use the anchor bar and cover tape in the field of the roof. That seems like a recipe for failure.


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## 1985gt

Grumpy said:


> If the screw is in the seam, what does it matter? The water won't get to the screw unless the seam fails and if the seam fails you are Effed regardless if it is MA or FA.
> 
> I am not a fan of MA systems where you use the anchor bar and cover tape in the field of the roof. That seems like a recipe for failure.



I have just never been a fan. To be fair most of the ones we have seen are EPDM and they have the anchor bar and cover tape on them.

I got to thinking, its got to get pretty expensive if you figure in a all the seams and screws. Has to be getting pretty close to the F/A cost. 

I also am thinking I should have brought more food for lunch.


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## Grumpy

My experience is that a MA system goes slightly less than twice as fast than a FA system, especially on small jobs, and I don't like paying guys to watch glue dry. Plus BA costs ALOT ALOT more than screws and plates.


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## 1985gt

Grumpy said:


> My experience is that a MA system goes slightly less than twice as fast than a FA system, especially on small jobs, and I don't like paying guys to watch glue dry. Plus BA costs ALOT ALOT more than screws and plates.


If your guys are watching the glue dry its time to find new guys :laughing:


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## Grumpy

What else are you going to do besides watch glue dry?


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## shazapple

Huff the glue 

I suppose it would be possible to use normal EPDM (without the fleeceback) adhered to the insulation as well.


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## 1985gt

grumpy said:


> What else are you going to do besides watch glue dry?


Lay out the next sheet, clean stuff up. Prep other areas. Smoke a couple of cigs and watch the pretty girls walk by. There are a ton of things to do. Seriously that is prep time, while two or how ever many are rolling out glue the rest are preping the next areas or cleaning up. There is always stuff that needs to be cleaned up on the roof or the ground and they my friends is why god made laborers. 




shazapple said:


> Huff the glue
> 
> I suppose it would be possible to use normal EPDM (without the fleeceback) adhered to the insulation as well.


I bet it would be cheaper then the oly bond or whatever to adhere the EPDM. Coverboard vs oly bond.


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## Grumpy

Not on our average job Gt. 1,200 sq ft plus walls. You'd end up painting yourself in a corner on our average job. 

Cigarettes are absolutely outlawed when the adhesive bucket gets opened. Not so much the cigarette, but the lighter can cause bad things. Personally I plan to outloaw tobacco use while on the clock, period.


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## 1985gt

Grumpy said:


> Not on our average job Gt. 1,200 sq ft plus walls. You'd end up painting yourself in a corner on our average job.
> 
> Cigarettes are absolutely outlawed when the adhesive bucket gets opened. Not so much the cigarette, but the lighter can cause bad things. Personally I plan to outloaw tobacco use while on the clock, period.


My point being there are other things to do then stand around.

Also your a tobacco Nazi. To be fair we have the same policy about smoking and adhesives, glue primer ect...


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## Grumpy

I understand your point, on a 200 square building. Not so much on a 12 square 2-flat. 

yes I am a smoking nazi but in general chew has always annoyed me even when I smoked and nothing pisses off a customer more than finding cigarette butts on their property. Not to mention it is a proven fact that smokers take many more breaks then non smokers and that costs me money. 

I still enjoy a good cigar when I am off the clock though!


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## 1985gt

Yeah flicking cigarette butts off the roof in to a yard is a big no no here. They dont get to take smoke breaks they work and smoke, they can take a break off the clock.


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## RoofingDave

Do you guys ever use Firestone EPDM Rubber Roofing? The 1.14mm stuff is quite heavy and im looking for something lighter. 

http://www.roofingwarehouse.co.uk/roofing/firestone-rubber-roofing.html


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## Pie in the Sky

1.14MM? 45 Mil. I guess. .045-inches

Firestones legit, EPDM hasnt changed much since glued seams. Ive never seen thinner than 45mil... I wouldnt reccomend anything thinner than .060 inches or 60mil.


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## 1985gt

That's 45 mil I don't think anyone makes anything thinner, not sure why they would. 60 Mil is what we use 90% of the time.


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## Pie in the Sky

1985gt said:


> I am wondering about this also? You cant mop EPS anyway it will melt.


When I roofed I tore off thousands of squares with Mopped EPS. they just waited till it cooled.


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## 1985gt

Pie in the Sky said:


> When I roofed I tore off thousands of squares with Mopped EPS. they just waited till it cooled.


I guess I should have clarified it, you can but you can't, you can't fully mop it and set in hot like on ISO. You can sprinkle mop and set it or full mop and let it cool. Anyway its all kind of pointless and a piss poor way to attach any insulation.  I've also seen it stick to the hot that wasn't completely off the deck.


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## Pie in the Sky

I agree with that!


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