# Hot Mop B.U.R



## m.mcdaniel

Would a hot mopped 4 ply roof (no gravel) be considered a "tar" roof? Would tar re saturant and tar roof cement be appropriate? Is there a Dewitt or Karnak coating that is universal? Will Karnak 19 cement adhere to this roof?


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## Grumpy

Tar is coal tar pitch. Asphalt is a by product from the refining of crude oil into gasoline. Both would be considered Built Up Roofs. Both are very similiar in how they are installed and how they look to the untrained eye. Coal Tar pitch and asphalt are not the same. Tar is old dinosaurs, think a tar pit. 

There are ways of determining if the roof is tar or asphalt. Tasting it is one method I have never used, but have seen others do. I prefer to break off a small piece and smell it. 

Personally I like to use Lucas #6000 Universal. It'll stick to coal tar or asphalt so there's no real reason to know for sure which I am coating. I'm not a fan of reglazing. It'll fill small cracks and voids but that's about it. Reglazing with hot was real popular before these elastomeric systems hit the market.


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## 1985gt

Most mastic will adhear to both. never reglaze, top moping does 0 it will fill in the cracks for a year maybe, then they will open back up. Thats why top moped roofs have some type of coating over the top. Coal tar and asphalt dont mix, atleast well. Smell a chunk of the roof or break off a small part and burn it. If its pitch (coal tar) you will know or you could break it up in a fine dust and rub it in your eyes. :no: Do not do this you will not like it. I dont think ive ever seen anyone eat pitch, who does that?


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## Grumpy

1985gt said:


> Most mastic will adhear to both. never reglaze, top moping does 0 it will fill in the cracks for a year maybe, then they will open back up. Thats why top moped roofs have some type of coating over the top. Coal tar and asphalt dont mix, atleast well. Smell a chunk of the roof or break off a small part and burn it. If its pitch (coal tar) you will know or you could break it up in a fine dust and rub it in your eyes. :no: Do not do this you will not like it. I dont think ive ever seen anyone eat pitch, who does that?


Hill billies 

and 

ex-union roofers who are in their 60's. 


One hill billy used to chew it like gum or dip. One ex union guy I had hired to do estimates wanted to show me an old school trick. Ugh in both cases. If I recall correctly the ex union guy said it was sweet. I could be wrong I was thuroughly grossed out just watching.


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## 1985gt

Grumpy said:


> Hill billies
> 
> and
> 
> ex-union roofers who are in their 60's.
> 
> 
> One hill billy used to chew it like gum or dip. One ex union guy I had hired to do estimates wanted to show me an old school trick. Ugh in both cases. If I recall correctly the ex union guy said it was sweet. I could be wrong I was thuroughly grossed out just watching.


 
They say antifreeze is sweet too, still doesnt make me want to try it  I alway smell it, if its real old and lost its oder put a flame to it, you can tell pretty fast 

Oh another note we once were doing a big manufacturing plant. They were putting in a rail station next to it and we had this guy who every day would eat his lunch on the rail road ties. We though that it was pretty entertaining on the 90-100 degree days. He did have somewhat of a saving grace is we allways changed in to our hot clothes after lunch, bad thing was we ate lunch in our normal work clothes, and they had to drive to the job site. The only trucks allowed in were the marked work trucks. So basically the foreman, me at the time and the right hand man could drive the 1/2 mile to where the access was. This guy always wanted a ride, every day he would ask and wanted to know why I wouldnt let him ride in the truck. After about a day or so you would have thought he would have figured out the relationship between his dirty burning butt and me not giving him a ride.


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## jjshaggy

yes, by smell u can tell if is pitch also if burned, should have a green smoke if is pitch. am i missing something?i would patch w/ mod. bit. unless complete roof needed . then resaturant would be called for, but would recommed new roof at that point. i was taught roof cement or resaturant is for emergency only. as they make future repairs diffuclt. roof cement is for perimeter of mod bit patches on bur, or on drains to make a compression seal? if you are doing roof cement patches in my area you are considedered a hack.:thumbdown:


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## Grumpy

There was a property manager I used to work for before they stopped paying me. I agree with shaggy, cement patches aren't my style. However all this property manager was willign to pay for were cement patches and caulk. It was ridiculous because we'd sometimes patch the same roof 3 or 4 times in various different spots where as we could have hit it once with modified and been done with it. 

Lotta guys "doping" roofs.


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## 1985gt

jjshaggy said:


> yes, by smell u can tell if is pitch also if burned, should have a green smoke if is pitch. am i missing something?i would patch w/ mod. bit. unless complete roof needed . then resaturant would be called for, but would recommed new roof at that point. i was taught roof cement or resaturant is for emergency only. as they make future repairs diffuclt. roof cement is for perimeter of mod bit patches on bur, or on drains to make a compression seal? if you are doing roof cement patches in my area you are considedered a hack.:thumbdown:


 
So you cold app down a mod bit patch? Ha most of the bur roofs we see are pretty old and a few layers of mastic and membrane hold up for years. just mastic is a :no:. Mastic is used for much more then coating the edges of your patchs and for drains. Infact on manufacture requires all flashing laps to be coated in mastic and membrane. Hell what do I know, im just a f-ing hack....


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## jjshaggy

1985gt said:


> So you cold app down a mod bit patch? Ha most of the bur roofs we see are pretty old and a few layers of mastic and membrane hold up for years. just mastic is a :no:. Mastic is used for much more then coating the edges of your patchs and for drains. Infact on manufacture requires all flashing laps to be coated in mastic and membrane. Hell what do I know, im just a f-ing hack....


 no torch down. i wasnt calling you a hack. i guess i shouldnt have used that word, kinda like calling a woman the c word. its only gonna cause problems. ive read many of your posts and know you are a knowledgble roofer. so i am sorry. i joined this forum to learn not to fight. maybe ill just keep my mouth shut for awhile and learn more.


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## 1985gt

jjshaggy said:


> no torch down. i wasnt calling you a hack. i guess i shouldnt have used that word, kinda like calling a woman the c word. its only gonna cause problems. ive read many of your posts and know you are a knowledgble roofer. so i am sorry. i joined this forum to learn not to fight. maybe ill just keep my mouth shut for awhile and learn more.


No problem, just see that term tossed around alot. We have always patched smaller breaks with mastic and membrane. We had some last a very long time, infact probably too long and then the customer just wants more patches. Larger ones will drag up a roll of mod and cold app it down. If its a big repair we even set up a kettle. The owner really hates torches, let alone that fact is we now only have two people who he would feel comferable running one, me being one. We do still have a bunch of them high on a self, even a draggin wagon or two. Around here using a torch is a lost art and is basically dead. Only real use for them is drying roofs but we have a roof dryer for that so they mostly collect dust.


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## jjshaggy

ha, thats funny here the kettles are collecting weeds, almost never used. most guys here dont know how to run a kettle, me included. i have some know how, but a little knowledge with a kettle can be fatal. mostly if we do have a kettle man its an old timer. where are you from 1985gt?


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## 1985gt

NO different here now, we use to do mostly hot work with a little epdm mixed in. Now its mostly EPDM, and TPO, with a little metal mixed in. We do maybe a 1/2 dozen hot jobs a year in the last 2-3 years where as before we would have enough kettles but not enough good moppers and setters. Too bad to loved doing hot work. Yeah we use to only have old timers run the kettles except they started to become premadonna's and instead of doing anything else they would chop a bunch of kegs in the morning, then read the paper untill they had to feed the kettle. Us mopers tried to make it so they never would have a chance to sit down. Then they would complain and here would come another kettle and old timer out to the job.  So every once and awhile they would get to switch with the hot carrier. Ever see an overweight fat drunk 50 year old, try to carry two full hot buckets all day long?:laughing: seems we would do this ever 2 weeks or so. Damn I miss them days, now im just stuck in a office. Im from Nebraska!


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## jjshaggy

a cornhusker eh? cool. when i first started in the union i got put on the hot crew. i liked it, but all i did was tearoff, pull and lug hot, and hump rolls. they didnt take the time to teach me much about mopping so i never learned. now almost no one does hot so may never learn. wish i could. i think i worked with that grumpy, drunk old timer a few times as well.:laughing:


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## 1985gt

Yeah there is alot of them guys out there. Being a mopper was like a medal of honer, you know they like you if you can mop. Its even better when the felt setter cant keep up with you, or the kettle man, or the hot lugger and they are all just bitching about slowing down. It was allways fun for me didnt matter what roof it was, could be 20 sq could be 2,000 I loved them just the same. EPDM and TPO 2,000 sq's just gets old :laughing:


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## jjshaggy

what are some other methods of repairs everyone else is doing on bur roofs these days? here is mostly spud and app mod bit. i got in trouble by a super. once cuz was raining and couldnt do much but patch with cement and mini. so now i stray away from that.


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## RooferJim

There certainly was a skill to being on a mop. as there was for a paper setter. Not much hot work at all in this part of the world anymore. I havent used a kettle in years, all repairs are either scratch and torch down or karnak and fabric. 

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## 1985gt

jjshaggy said:


> what are some other methods of repairs everyone else is doing on bur roofs these days? here is mostly spud and app mod bit. i got in trouble by a super. once cuz was raining and couldnt do much but patch with cement and mini. so now i stray away from that.


bentonite? :laughing: depends how bad the split is. mastic an membrane for smaller and cold app with base and mod bit if large, or really large break out hte kettle.


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## 1985gt

RooferJim said:


> There certainly was a skill to being on a mop. as there was for a paper setter. Not much hot work at all in this part of the world anymore. I havent used a kettle in years, all repairs are either scratch and torch down or karnak and fabric.
> 
> RooferJim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com


Yeah you had better know what your doing on both other wise bad things happen. Ive seen setters get burned bad by using thier hands to roll out the roll instead of kicking it. when the moper comes back for the 2nd pass and someones hands,arms and face are there it can be bad, and if your not fast enough some times you get your feet moped, that will get them to move, either the heat and the fact is sucks trying to walk on a new roof with a freshly moped pair of boots. I think I seen more accidents with the hot carriers though. DOnt need alot of talent for the job but commonsense should does help.


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## RooferJim

Its going to be a lost art. some of the you-tube videos show guys that never learned to swing a mop the right way. nostalgic but i do love my pvc single plys nowadays.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## [email protected]

One of the easiest and quickest ways to tell the difference between coal tar and asphalt is to chip or break a piece off. The broken surface of asphalt will be very shiny, glossy and very black. Coat tar will have a flat (not shiny) surface and will be more of a very dark grey color than black. Break a piece of each and check it out.


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## 1985gt

@rooferjim Yes to bad too. The single ply roofs are nice but I still have a thing for a mop and a cart.
@bill to me the smell is easier, some times asphalt doesnt stay black and shiny.


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## [email protected]

1985gt - I do use the smell test and actually like the smell of CTP. It is a very easy and trustworthy method. But I have never not been able to distinguish asphalt from CTP from visual inspection of a freshly broken surface. You can't aways tell from the unbroken surface materials. This method also keeps pitch dust out of my nose.


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## 1985gt

[email protected] said:


> 1985gt - I do use the smell test and actually like the smell of CTP. It is a very easy and trustworthy method. But I have never not been able to distinguish asphalt from CTP from visual inspection of a freshly broken surface. You can't aways tell from the unbroken surface materials. This method also keeps pitch dust out of my nose.


Pitch has a smell of its own. When in doubt i will burn a chunk with a lighter. dead give way. even if its "dead" it will still give off the smell when burned and not so noticable any other way. Also whats wrong with a little pitch dust in your nose? j/k of course.


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## [email protected]

Started tearing pitch roofs off in 1978. My nose has sniffed enough.


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## 1985gt

Yes not to many around in our area any more. I only know of a few that are not actually covered up but a ballasted epdm or other such roof.


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## jjshaggy

[email protected] said:


> Started tearing pitch roofs off in 1978. My nose has sniffed enough.


 i was 3. wow, hats off to ya.:jester:


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