# You're doing ok if you don't have one of these...



## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

http://www.lindholmroofingproblems.com/ I happened to find that site just scouting around the internet for our competitors. I used to work there, back at that time they had about 10 crews out daily. I gotta call the name listed there and razz him about it.


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## Ed the Roofer (Sep 15, 2008)

What was the name of the other company you worked for. I knew about Lindholm.

Ed


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## The Roofing God (Oct 31, 2008)

THAT`S A GODADDY WEBPAGE FROM WEBSITE TONITE,Only about 10 $ with hosting,wonder what kind of SEO the site had,did it pop out high on the list ??


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## Ed the Roofer (Sep 15, 2008)

If you Google Lindholm Roofing, it would be right there.

Ed


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> What was the name of the other company you worked for. I knew about Lindholm.
> 
> Ed


TL Construction was the name. Their site that I made was www.bestexteriors.net but he took it down. Too bad too I had real good ranking in that site until he took it down. He's strictly a subcontractor again, which is what he hired me to break away from. It's what he knows and he's making money doing it. They do good work and I doubt you'd be able to find a bad word about him, except the ONE BBB complaint. LOL that lady is nuts, even called the bldg department on us but after I explained the situation the bldg dept told me "good luck" and droped the complaint. I remember her well, Gloria something, and that was like 7 years ago. She used to call the office screaming lunatic. She may have even sued us in small claims for 1/2 square of siding on her dormers.

The other company was Gutter Experts, www.gutterexperts.com I did his website which is now my website. He screwed me out of $5,500. Best $5k I ever spent though cause the site has got me much more than that in returns. However when I was workign for him installing gutters and roofing, I quit on the last job. We installed gutters, reused old brackets, didn't install some downspouts. He couldn't afford caulk... drugs got the better of him. Last I heard he was ripping people off after Katrina and now has the marshalls looking for him or maybe FBI somethign about interstate fraud.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

The Roofing God said:


> THAT`S A GODADDY WEBPAGE FROM WEBSITE TONITE,Only about 10 $ with hosting,wonder what kind of SEO the site had,did it pop out high on the list ??


I googled Chicago Roofing and it was like 3rd or 2nd on the list. I used to be 1st and then bounced around from first to fifth and back to first. Now I'm not even on the first page I think. 

Edit correction, I am now 6th, service magic finally beat me! Grrr... but it was yahoo that relaly has hit my ranking hard. Now I'm like 12th. I used to have first ranking locked down tight for years without budging. Still good on the gutters though. Locked down for first in google and yahoo for the gutters.


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## The Roofing God (Oct 31, 2008)

So th people did good SEO,or stole some of yours,The story doesn`t really ring true for me,How is it that the customer doesn`t know that skylight was crap when they got the bid?? I don`t know how many times I`ve heard said ,geez if they had told me it was onlyanother 1,000 dollars-I would have done it i`ve found that most of those people don`t want to do it when you ask for it,and usually actually say" It`s never been a problem before,and don`t want to do it,I would think he left his card for her to call him when the leak changed her mind,I would have had a disclaimer for that in my contract to cover that situation,and yeah ,you can bet your bottom dollar,I would sue them for that slander,I would wish they had changed that skylight ,because I would have to fix it on "my new property"-lol----


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

How is it the customer didn't know? He was never informed. Infact I can tell you htat company provides their guys between 6 and 12 leads a day and the guys have no time to meet or even talk on the phone with customers. Hell some of them don't even measure anymore, just count paces. They'll be on the job for a full 5 minutes and leave off to the next.

I put skylights on the proposal as an option witha disclaimer stating not responsible for leaks blah blah blah. 

I am in a similair situation where the sales rep who no longer works for me didn't sell the guy a new skylight even though the old one was doped up, big red flag there. Now a year and a half later the skylight is leaking, no duh! This was a total break down of the system and I am left lceaning up the mess. The sales rep didn't see an obvious red flag and sieze the opportunity to upsell new skylights and further more didn't discliam us. The production crew never told me, maybe told the sales rep (I don't know) that the skylight was doped to hell, they just roofed around it.

Customer called about the leak, we did the right thing and went out to inspect. We informed the customer it appears to be the skylight its' self and not the flashing around the skylight. The customer was provided an estimate for a new skylight, which by the way now costs him double what it would have if replaced with the roof.

If any consumers are reading this it is highly suggested that most skylights be replaced with the roof. It is not always necessary depending on the type and condition of your skylight but don't be shocked if you keep the ond one and it leaks. 

We were thinking about the business card in the office and can only guess he used it to spread the dope?



You may be able to sue for something but I don't know if you'd win to be honest. After all he's not actually saying anything that isn't fact. Well I take that back, he said they are a bad company and not to hire. I bet if he hired a lawyer to review the site, the alweyr would suggest some changes... but really LOL what would be cheaper for you to do TRG? Replace the skylight or pay a lawyer to sue the customer to take down a website? 

I think they handled this all wrong to be honest. I'm always talking about systems, and this is my system for dealing with any customer complaint. Acknowledge the complaint and explain the next step to the consumer, if it's our problem tell the customer as such and explain when it will be repaired or what was done to fix it. If it's not our problem explain that to the customer and here is the important part ALWAYS follow up in writing, in this case a written estimte to replace the skylight. 

The customer says on his site he requested an estimate to replace the skylight, be that true or not if everyone at the company hadn't tried to sweep the issue under the rug the company could have made some more money out of the deal and had a happy satisifed customer. However if the customer refused to accept the proposal you now have a paper trail to be used as evidence in court... "Your honor we did acknowledge the customers' problem and inspect the complaint. At the time of inspection we deemed the problem to be related to a skylight that we did not install, thus did not warrant. At that time we wanted to help the customer with their problem and approached them with an estimate which they declined. Your honor we did everything reasonable to address this customers' complaint." Good paper trail like that wins court battles.


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## Ed the Roofer (Sep 15, 2008)

I was thinking that the guy possibly left his business card stuck to the skylight as proof that they did show p to follow up and inspect the problem and probably took a photo of it with a date stamp.

Ed


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## The Roofing God (Oct 31, 2008)

I`M JUST SAYING WHAT THE SITUATION OFTTIMES IS,YOU WOULDN`T DO A JOB with a signed disclaimer against responsibility for future skylight problems ???
because I agree if the skylight is older,or in poor condition,I recommend replacement of them all,and I also recommend anything that`s warranty runs out soon to replace them anyway because the whole system warranty is longer than that ,and it`s a better value to them not to have to disturb the new system,ie;cheaper now then later because of added work---I agree with that completely Tom ,but when business is slow ,you ofttimes deal with some unusual requests or something that`s generally out of the scope of what yu normally do-All I `m saying is in those situations have a customer sign a disclaimer to protect your interests,and theirs


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

TRG would I do a job without a signed waiver? Yes, IF I had an option on the proposal that they declined. IMO that's good enough to be refrenced at a future date stating "Well I told you, here it is, and you declined." I've used that several times and each time I've been paid MORE than the proposal said to tear up a brand new roof and replace the skylights that should have been done in the first place.

The real problem here is this: Untrained sales staff. Volume instead of quality. Now don't get me wrong the company in question charges enough to do the job right. The owners don't know what a right job is, and to be honest I don't think they care. In addition much of the sales staff have never touched a tool. And the installation subcontractors are soooo abused and soooo underpaid that they truly don't care enough to do a good job, quite simply the subs aren't paid enough to do it right and the company gets what they pay for. Everyone at the company operates under the unwritten philosophy that if the customer complains they'll fix it. However how many times does the customer not complain?

I know from my own records of sending out post cards, and what not, to my past customers than several every year move. Now we do a good enough job that we seldom have problems. However for a company that does just a good enough job to be paid, most buyers never know who installs the roof, this is how they get away with the crap.

Plus you see how they fix it. Even if we were to re-use the old skylight we would never dare dream of doping it. Well "I" wouldn't, as you see in my previous reply above I've had a break down in my system and have been in a similiar situation. However we dealt with it and moved along.

IMO this company would have been better off just buying them a new skylight weather they be in the right or wrong, and in this situation I have to side with the roofer that it's a crap old skylight, but now their reputation is at stake... however it's obvious they don't care about that anyways.


I want to add that the business plan of which this company operates of doing just good enough to be paid and if they complain, fix it, is how most businesses in my area seemingly operate. I am trying to build my business into a large business with the small business mentality... Do it right the first time because it costs more to go back and do it twice. It's a very hard uphill battle not sacrificing quality to quantity and finding the just right balance. I want


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## The Roofing God (Oct 31, 2008)

Point is the customer might not know with only one estimate,possible,but more often then not, they have several,and tend to go with the guy who they feel doesn`t want to do "all that stuff" that the other guy wanted to do---I know as I`m often the other guy,and often get called later when the skylight leaks,and they realize ,I was right----and not for nothing ,but they look thru that light,and anyone can see you can`t even see thru it,who wouldn`t think it needs replacing ?
It may be a crap cpompany as you infer,but I don`t believe the customer wasn`t aware the skylight had problems,It looked to me ,like it had been repaired before


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## The Roofing God (Oct 31, 2008)

previous


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## The Roofing God (Oct 31, 2008)

the only "crack" appears to be in the tar surrounding it,and you can see by the brighter tar spots that the tarring was touched up(which says to me "tar was existing-no one tars like that unless there was a previous problem,and lindholm liked that yellow caulk to seal with(both dome and shingles sealed with it)--so yeah I think they knew,and I think there should have been a disclaimer,although I agree that there are plenty of fools that would opt for more sealant,even though "most" pros know to thoroughly clean before sealing if you expect it to work
Note:I`m not defending the company either--just saying how could you not know that skylight was crap,and had problems?,to me,that seems highly unlikely
keep in mind there`s always 2 sides to every story,and I can`t wait to hear what they(lindholm) tell you happened


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## The Roofing God (Oct 31, 2008)

I do think that the guy`s service is reprehensinsible,just don`t believe that the customer didn`t know there was a skylight problem


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## tarface (Jan 21, 2009)

In general I see alot of new roofs go on with poor skylights and I am under the impression that it is with the thought of selling repairs in the future easily to an already established customer.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Traface, that's a valid though although kinda flawed, since it's always the roofers fault it leaked. You then have to calm down the customer and get them back on your side. Alot of hassel and head ache if you ask me. 

I used to know a guy who at the end of every job would make up a fake mistake to fix it. He did this because he beleived it would build the customer's confidence that they took the time to do it right. TO me it's like playing with fire. You run the risk of having the customer think you are a bumbling idiot. I'd rather they think we got it right the first time, and yes if we made a mistake we will fix it... but we won't make some crap up. I hate games and gimicks.


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## jamesfl (Jan 21, 2009)

Although I don't have the link, search "roofing nightmare.com" or "badroofing.com". These are similar to the OP.

James


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## Ed the Roofer (Sep 15, 2008)

I remember that guys site.

He was fricking detailed.

I don't remember if his contractor was Home Depot or not, but there are also a lot of similar ones about home depot roofing scams and crap workmanship and a complete cluster-fcuk about the scope of work thought to be agreed to and what was actually done.

Ed


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## The Roofing God (Oct 31, 2008)

it wasn`t HD Ed,it was rain ,,something or other
I don`t think that`s intelligent reasoning Tarface,unless they`re building work for their competition-lol


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

The point here folks, details save your @$$. Be as detailed in your proposal what IS and IS NOT included. I know home depot's scope of work on their proposal is next to zero. How can a sales guy who has no idea what he's doing spec a job? He can't. Therefore they don't want him to, and when the crew doesn't deliver as promised, who is to say what was promised? 

If you do a roof without doing the skylight make sure there is a note on your proposal for the skylight, or at least a disclaimer stating the skylight leakage isn't covered by your warranty.

Put some time into your proposal, and if you are a salesman reading this without any hands on knowledge, take some time to educate yourself.


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## chb70 (Jan 19, 2009)

Thats one of the first things I do when I estimate a roof. I learned the hard way with a old skylight the customer said he could live with, well he only lived with it for about 4 months before I was back there installing a new one for cost. If I think a skylight should be replaced it becomes part of my estimate. The customer can refuse but I will have them sign a no fault waiver.


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## The Roofing God (Oct 31, 2008)

I note all skylights with replacement costs for each,to be installed/replaced at added cost to customer,and have them initial if they want that skylight replaced--Later on,It costs a lot more to replace it,than if it`s done while I`m there for their roof :yes:


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