# need help for beginner



## roof coating newbie (Dec 2, 2012)

Hi everyone, I am a beginner from Florida and want to get in the roof coating industry. I don't have a roofing background so I would like some feedback from people with more experience than me. There are so many different kinds of coatings and manufacturers out there. My questions are:

1) Should I go with a polyurethane or acrylic?

2) What manufacturer's coatings should I use ( based on cost, quality, ease of application, warranty, training and support, etc. ) ?


Thank you in advance for any advice.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

i did one recently at an ice arena near vancouver.... it was originally specced for Gacoflex 2 part system but we managed to get into a more user freindly inland coatings sytem instead. Product was RC2000 and went on really great. We bought a new sprayer for about 4k with all the parts and hoses and the job went really well. very small learning curve. http://www.inlandcoatings.com/products.html

ken


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

1st thing coatings are not a cure for roofing problems. So don't expect a miracle in a bucket. I don't know how a coating only business would work most commercial roofing contractors do roof coatings and there are the spray foam roofers who also do coatings.

1.) Both types of coatings have their place, learn them.

2.) They is probably a million coating companies. They all will tell you they are the best. The good ones are not cheap and the cheap ones are not good. Good ones will offer you training and ect.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

you are right coatings are not a miracle in a bucket but a nice new paint job that helps seal dried up neoprene washer screws on a rusting old metal roof can be a whole lot more attractive then a complete re-do. I think there is a market for this in the right area.


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## roof coating newbie (Dec 2, 2012)

AnyMonkey,

1) What is the make and model of the sprayer you bought and why this unit? 

2) Also, if you don't mind me asking what you paid your crew for the roof coating job? (How much hourly or how much by the square or job?) 

3) I am also thinking about hiring subcontrators for jobs in the beginning since I probably won't have a steady stream of jobs. What are the pros and cons of subcontractors?


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## roof coating newbie (Dec 2, 2012)

1985gt,

It sounds like you are saying most roofing contractors do roof coatings as an additional source of income. It is not wise to get in roof coating solely as your only source of income. Do you have a suggestion as to which roof coating manufacturer you consider to be good? Also, should training be free or do you have to pay?


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

we bought the Graco 2 7900 max as recommended by the manufacturer here

http://www.inlandcoatings.com/app_spec/spray_recommendations.pdf

we used their online app to figure our costs and it worked out for us but for certain i would add 20% or more if this is your first time to allow for some self training of the equipment

http://www.inlandcoatings.com/mestcalc.php

we are in vancouver canada but the rep from inland in our area is in washington state..... he came up here with his tech guy to give us a good start to the project but it was all pretty straight forward.

fyi if you use the grey base coat and then a white top coat i would buy 90% of what the recommend for base and about 120% of what they suggest for top

Ken


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## roof coating newbie (Dec 2, 2012)

AnyMonkey, 

Thank you for your help. I actually called Inland Coatings and asked about their products today. The sales rep told me their coatings are rubber based and not acrylic or urethane based. I was told urethane based is better than acrylic based. I am not sure how Inland Coatings rubber based is compared to acrylic or urethane based? Any thoughts on this?

Are you able to say how you paid your crew and how much or is that too personal a question?


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

our labour for 220 sq worked out to about 15k..... it was really just one guy and a helper and he finished in about 10 days


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

There are a few companies around here that do nothing but roof coatings. These companies sucks. They coat anything even the chit that shouldn't be coated. Even the roofs that are OK to coat but should have been recovered. I think any company that is a one trick pony (meaning only offering one service) sucks. There are no one size fits all solutions, and if your only tool is a hammer every problem looks like a nail, doesn't work. 

Roof coatings won't cure roofing problems they are very very much about the prep work. This is something I see being skipped often, and part of the reason I see roof coatings getting a bad name. Also the roof surface must be thoroughly washed and this too is something I see skipped all the time. I see guys spraying it with a power washer, which is ok if you know what you are doing, but they spray it quick, just so it looks like you are doing something. Cleaning a 15 year old roof, you'll get a muck or mud from the roof you didn't even know was there. If that muck isn't removed the coating won't stick.

A properly applied coating system will cost more than a single ply recovery. This is why for us coatings have become a tool we utilize when tearing off is not within the budget, and a recovery would put you over the code limit for layers. 

http://www.reliableamerican.us/services/roof-coatings.htm


For labor, I figure a 3 man crew can do 80 squares a day just coating, pour spread back roll. 120 squares a day if spray and back roll. I prefer pour spread roll method in lieu of sprayer. Prep work is what it is and is unique to each building. Washing a flat roof you can do about 6 squares an hour for a medium soiled roof.


Coatings aside, we've given the new guy a welath of knowledge to get started, nobody mentioned safety. You can lose your whole year of income on one OSHA violation. Invest a few thousand in a safety program, manual, and training before OSHA fines you a few ten thousand for not knowing what you are doing.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

after readng Grumpy's post i am realizing that you are talking about roof coatings for flat roofs and not metal roofs.... our company has not diversed into the tpo, pvc, epdm yet and we are more of an SBS company so roof coatings on flat roofs are alien to us... all of that being said we had a pretty good experience coating a metal roof and as grumpy said it was all in the prep work. for us it was about 70% prep and 30% re-coating


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

roof coating newbie said:


> 1985gt,
> 
> It sounds like you are saying most roofing contractors do roof coatings as an additional source of income. It is not wise to get in roof coating solely as your only source of income. Do you have a suggestion as to which roof coating manufacturer you consider to be good? Also, should training be free or do you have to pay?


Yes most will do coatings as well as regular roofing systems, commercial. I don't know of any shingler who offer coatings.

We use GAF's Top Coat, or ER Systems. There are many out there, and they all want your business. Training should be free.

We will use a Sub on larger jobs or when we are busy with other things, he has spray equipment we do not, everything we do is poured and rolled. Also any asphalt coatings we do our selfs, IE ALuma Coating. When using a sub we have a project manager or superintendent check on them frequently it's our name, so we figure in the time for that also. 

Lots of info on the web, all of the coating manufactures I know of have a calculator on their site or at least give you the percentages for each type of panel. So they are fairly easy to estimate when you know your production numbers.


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## roof coating newbie (Dec 2, 2012)

Wow, lots of great info and advice. Thank you to everyone. Now if I can just decide how to pay a crew (hourly vs. by squares) and how much, then I am on my way


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

By the hour or by the square, the great debate every contractor struggles with. The argument, pay by the hour and you get better workmanship. Pay by the square and the job will be done quicker. Pay by the hour and the guys will milk the job. Pay by the square and the guys will cut corners. It's true and false at the same time.

I had one of my employees tell me once, in response to a comment I made to him about a job taking too long, he said, "If you paid by the square it would damn sure get done on time." I wanted to punch him in the face. Without even knowing it he admitted to me to milking the job. The comment I made to him, was, "My sub crew would have had it done in half the time."

Here is an article I wrote, while not exactly on subject it's not completely off topic either. http://hangupthebelt.com/2011/there-is-no-quality-when-using-subcontractors/ 


I think if you are going to work with the guys paying by the hour is a great method because you'll be able to kick them in the butt if/when they start slacking. But if you're not going to be on the job there is a chance they could slack off. I was on a roof the other Saturday flashing in some doors. While another crew from another company was building a deck on the roof. Actually they were messing around with some planter boxes, but I digress. Most of the day they were messing around, what they got accomplished that day I'd have lost my ass if I were their boss. This is why if you are not going to be on the job you need a great foreman.

A foreman's job is not just to be technical but to be a team leader and watch out for the company. Alot has been discussed about bonusing the foreman for getting a job done early. I once came up with a hybrid method of paying where let's say the crew earned half what they normally would, and then they'd get paid by the piece, again half what they normally would. At the end of the day, in theory, it was supposed to ensure the job gets done on time by reducing the hourly pay, but ensure fewer corners get cut because they have that little bit of hourly pay to span the peculiarities of each job. Furthermore if warranty issues were to arise, they would be fixing them strictly on the hours at the reduced rate, since they already got paid the piece rate (it is illegal to back charge or with-hold or not pay an employee even if they mess up). 

At the end of the trial, this system was way more trouble than it's worth. The guys were confused, the administrative staff doing the time sheets was too. I scrapped it for straight hours. 

My book keeper once told me, "Don't yell at your employees. If you feel like you need to yell at them, just fire them." This advice holds true for the piece work or hourly argument. If you KNOW the job should have been done quicker, but time after time they are slacking, then it's better just to fire the weakest link. 

Let's add the IRS into the mix. The IRS requires specific accounting if you pay by the piece. You still have to pay over time, you still have to track hours. With all that being said, if you are going to cheat, just go and cheat. Don't half way cheat. But if you are going to do it right, do it right and do your best not to cheat. That's what I try to do, I try to do it right. I'm not smart enough to remember lies, so I prefer just not to tell them. Not suggesting that you would cheat or lie, just making a point.


If and when I put my full time crew back together again, I'm going to pay by the hour. I'll make sure my foreman is an asskicker, or he shouldn't be foreman, and I will bonus him for getting jobs done early.


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## AnyMonkey (Nov 26, 2012)

I have worked as an estimator for two different companies... the first one had an owner that was more hands off and only showed up to piss us off in the office once or twice a week. We based each job by the amount of days you could do it in so lets say that we had a job that was supposed to take 5 days and the foreman got it done in 4 we would pay the foreman only the extra days pay. The problem is that it is not only sub guys that cut corners even hourly guys do it too no matter how much you beg them not to. This can encourage a foreman to cut some corners even more. When times are good and there is lots of work you can not afford to get rid of even moderate employees but you get a bit more control over them when times are tighter and you can afford to set an example from time to time.

the company I work for now is quite different. I am the estimator I get the work.. once i do that i give the job to the owner who then does the prestart, sets up the job, gets the guys going, solves all the problems. This is by far the most productive company in our area just for that reason. The guys have no choice but to listen to him on the roof... he signs their checks... if I show up there they may "pretend" to respect my position but in truth they know im am just the sidekick and act accordingly.... we have talked many times about him slowing down and taking more time to be with his family. I have explained to him that he needs to understand that doing so will also result in a slow down in production so he needs to be prepared for the company to make less money when that day comes. The truth is that noone will ever work harder than him for his money in the end.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

AnyMonkey said:


> I The truth is that noone will ever work harder than him for his money in the end.


This is 100% spot on, but at the same time, nobody should be stealing from him by milking the job either. Standing around doing nothing is stealing from the mouth of his kids. Cutting a corner so to get done quicker, is stealing from the customer. Not saying your employees do that, but just making a point. 

This debate about by the hour or by the square will be one that will be had forever and I even sometimes wrestle with myself. If I had my way I believe everyone should be paid by performance, however for that to really work in practice the person has to be honest and not cut corners.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> This is 100% spot on, but at the same time, nobody should be stealing from him by milking the job either. Standing around doing nothing is stealing from the mouth of his kids. Cutting a corner so to get done quicker, is stealing from the customer. Not saying your employees do that, but just making a point.
> 
> This debate about by the hour or by the square will be one that will be had forever and I even sometimes wrestle with myself. If I had my way I believe everyone should be paid by performance, however for that to really work in practice the person has to be honest and not cut corners.



Pay by performance, this would be great, sadly some of the summer help that comes in would go hungry. 

We've had guys past and present that have worked here for 10-15-20+ years, even they tend to be some what lazy at times. Pisses me off to no end, when I was on a crew or running a crew these were the guys who trained me, so I know they know what we expect and how to do things, yet you still catch them not doing things exactly how you would like them to be done, not saying what they are doing is wrong, I just expect more. If I was to have to baby sit them I might as well run the damn crew(s) again.

I want robots no thinking just doing and doing it the same way each time. You seem to get in to more trouble when you have guys who "think" to much about what they are doing, for god sakes its roofing not rocket science.


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## jamokres84 (Dec 6, 2021)

Newbie

I have worked with roof coatings and rood coating applicators. I have found the hierarchy of roof coatings to be as follows: acrylics are the poorest performers with shorter service lives and substandard bonding properties, Polyurethanes/petroleum distillates are better in both categories; but not what I have found to be the best. That rating I would give to the new generation silicone-based products. They go on thicker, bond well to nearly all roof surfaces, and stand up to weather extremes much better. 

You intend to spray apply the product, you will need higher psi equipment and clean up is more difficult, requiring a special solvent to do so. However, the results will be far superior than with other types of coatings.


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