# Tar paper, #15 felt, use staples or nails?



## elsmootho

Reading manufacturers recommendations, i came across a statement to hold down felt paper use nails only. Does that mean Don't use staples? I use the standard U shaped 1/2" staples, is there a risk the felt will tear underneath the shingles once the whole job is finished? (due to thermal expoansion/contraction etc).

Thanks to all...
..s


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## Ridgewalker

The reason they want you to use felt nails is to prevent blow offs if left exposed or high wind areas. Staples can be used for tacking it down, but not recommended to hold. When the shingles are installed the felt is not going anywhere. Back in the day all I used was staples and /or roofing nails now plastic tops are the norm.


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## elsmootho

Can you tell me what a felt nail looks like? (plastic top?)
...s


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## Ridgewalker

Its just how it sounds, 7/8 - 1/1/2" An aluminum nail pierced through a plastic cap that is bowed downward. So when its nailed to the felt it has a larger holding surface then a roofing nail or staple. Also allows you to use your nail gun. The nail will go though the plastic try that with a square head. Iam surprised you havent seen them I would imagine all major suppliers would carry them.


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## elsmootho

Thanks Ridgewalker,
I'm a bit of an amateur (only done 3 roofs), so this is new to me. 

I'm so much of an amateur i'm not even sure what nails to use. 
i've been using 1" galv nails to hold down your regular 25yr three tab shingles.

Now i'm gona install some Architectural 40year shingles and because they are thicker, i wonder if i should be using 1&1/4" nails? Typically, what does everyone use?

Thanks for your support, much appreciated...

..s


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## Ridgewalker

7/8" on the overhangs 1 1/4" in the field. Try to learn roofing the right way it's easier then unlearning the wrong way.


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## Gatesroofing

IF you are only tacking down the felt for while you roof the building then 3/8 tack hammer staples are more then enough. Since you are new to the game i would greatly recommend you use 30# felt over 15. Its way better to work with and will last longer. It also will not wrinkle with moisture like 15# will. you only need cap nails for underlayment if you are leaving the roof exposed for a period of time before shingling. I wouldnt recommend this as felt should only be exposed for a month at most. 

And yes for 40 year shingles do not use less then 1 1/4 nails in the field. use as long of nails as you can in the eaves without them protruding thru. 

Since you are new at this i would greatly recommend you read up alot on specs and instructions so you do things right. and ask a lot of questions! 

good luck!


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## elsmootho

Hey guys, thanks so much for your advice, i was wondering what length nails to use since i just bought my first Roofing Air Nailer, i did the first jobs by hand, they were regular 3 tab shingles so i used 1" nails and a hammer! 

One last question for you guys, does choosing a lighter coloured shingle make the roof last longer? I say this because i wonder if lighter colours reflect off heat better, or do darker shingles get hotter? 

Thanks & Best Regards..
..s


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## elsmootho

*Do Lighter Couloured Shingles Last Longer?*

Does choosing a lighter coloured shingle make the roof last longer? I say this because i wonder if lighter colours reflect off heat better, or do darker shingles get hotter and don't last as long? Or is it insignificant? 
Thanks & Best Regards.. 
..s


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## PTROOFING

15lb felt? Havent used it in years. 30lb should be just fine with staples overnight and tarped. We now use synthetic underlayment with hand nailed plasti-cap nails and NO tarps and have yet to have a leak. We tried the hand Stinger nailers for the plasti staples and the are not worth a damn. Looking into buying a couple air plasti-cap nailers, but my guys prefer to hand nail the felt.


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## jimsonburg

elsmootho said:


> Does choosing a lighter coloured shingle make the roof last longer? I say this because i wonder if lighter colours reflect off heat better, or do darker shingles get hotter and don't last as long? Or is it insignificant?
> Thanks & Best Regards..
> ..s


 Dark shingles should last as long as lighter shingles given that they are installed on a house that has a properly vented attic. Proper attic ventilation is the key component to a longer lasting roof.


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## cavesrus

Seen a 30# felt at ire show where u can gun down with coil nailer was cool for fl guys no caps needed. Way fast kind a cool idea. I thought for speed


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## Roofmaster417

PTROOFING said:


> We tried the hand Stinger nailers for the plasti staples and the are not worth a damn. Looking into buying a couple air plasti-cap nailers, but my guys prefer to hand nail the felt.


We use UL 15lb and fasten with staples but prefer buttons.Button caps a.Ka "Greenies","Orangies" griprite.I was thinking of a hand stinger,but changed my mind.I have a couple guns for the caps.I am very satisfied as long as the caps stay the same price.1 of the small boxes will do about 20sq.


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## skiballs

30 lb felt is waste of money, if you're using i&w in the vallys, eaves and walls.


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## Gatesroofing

skiballs said:


> 30 lb felt is waste of money, if you're using i&w in the vallys, eaves and walls.


I know we all have different opinions on materials but why would you say 30# felt is a waste of money? it clearly works better and lasts longer. Using 15# felt is a very cheap way to install a roof. And in addition, Why would you skimp on felt in the center areas of a roof slope then go with ice and watershield every where else? That doesn't make sense. 

that would be like putting on beautiful seamless gutters and using plastic hangers.......


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## skiballs

We tear-off a lot of 45yr old roofs with 15# felt and two layers of shingles.
By todays standards every shingle one of theses roofs should have failed.
9 out of ten of these roof have no plywood damage.
The times there is plywood damage it's at the eaves, valleys or walls.
What advantage is 30# felt?


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## Interloc

skiballs said:


> The times there is plywood damage it's at the eaves, valleys or walls.
> What advantage is 30# felt?


 Eaves- probaly no dripedge.
Valleys- probaly a closed cut one.
Wall- flashing issue no doupt.
30# probaly has nothing to do with it.


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## skiballs

Interloc said:


> Eaves- probaly no dripedge.
> Valleys- probaly a closed cut one.
> Wall- flashing issue no doupt.
> 30# probaly has nothing to do with it.


Agreed
What advantage is 30# felt?


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## Interloc

its thicker then 15#


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## skiballs

Interloc said:


> its thicker then 15#


So are most roofers craniums.
Now I see the advantage.


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## elsmootho

hey guys, thanks for all your feedback, i did use #15 tar paper with I&W shield in the eaves and the valleys, thing is there are so many different types & prices for it, should I use the regular one or the premium? 

There's also a 4" piece of very thin protection plastic along one edge of the roll. Does that edge have to be on the eaves side, and do i need to remove it during the installation? 

Thanks and Best Regards...


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## The j man

It don't don't matter if you use staples, or plastic caps the felt won't move after the singles are nailed on .


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## charlotteroofers

we use fiberglass underlayment I just love how flat and smooth it rolls out. of course synthetic is the best now just cost prohibitive for some customers. 30# is ok as well but can be a bit cumbersome on some types of roofs. and the whole doubling up felt in the valleys, don't do it just buy some Ice & Water barrier you covering your own but in the long run.

As far as using staples?? Hell to the No!! buttons are best.:thumbup:

charlotte roofing contractor


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## lgb1roof

*felt application*

we use plastic cap nails with the Bostitch cap nailer. A little more expensive but well makes up for it in time. Once your guys use the cap NAILER they won't want anything else. It really saves the elbow and can absolutely nail as fast as three men, that's right three good men. I have a Bostitch cap nailer I''ll let go for $125. I'm selling everything, trucks, roofer's buggy hand tools, power tools nailers etc. due to a lung disease. Feel free to call 662-341-3332 anytime.


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## hawkeye

PTROOFING said:


> 15lb felt? Havent used it in years. 30lb should be just fine with staples overnight and tarped. We now use synthetic underlayment with hand nailed plasti-cap nails and NO tarps and have yet to have a leak. We tried the hand Stinger nailers for the plasti staples and the are not worth a damn. Looking into buying a couple air plasti-cap nailers, but my guys prefer to hand nail the felt.


 
I agree. Why use thinner 15 lb felt when 30 lb is nice and heavy, easier to work with and it runs the same price.

I dislike the ice and water barriers. IMO they do allow the roof to breathe and good old tarpaper/felt has been tried, trued and tested for years. Same goes for that plastic covering they are now using in place of fgood old tarpaper/felt.

I use 5/16 staples in a hammer tacker when it's windy and if I am laying shingles overtop that same day. I use plasta-caps on windy days and when I won't be covering over the roof with shingles that day. I always include plasta caps in my estimate. If I don't use them I deduct it from the homewoners estimate/bill.

Hawkeye


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## skiballs

hawkeye said:


> I agree. Why use thinner 15 lb felt when 30 lb is nice and heavy, easier to work with and it runs the same price.
> 
> Say what
> 
> I dislike the ice and water barriers. IMO they do allow the roof to breathe and good old tarpaper/felt has been tried, trued and tested for years. Same goes for that plastic covering they are now using in place of fgood old tarpaper/felt.
> 
> I & W been around for 25yrs
> 
> I use 5/16 staples in a hammer tacker when it's windy and if I am laying shingles overtop that same day. I use plasta-caps on windy days and when I won't be covering over the roof with shingles that day. I always include plasta caps in my estimate. If I don't use them I deduct it from the homewoners estimate/bill.
> 
> 
> Hawkeye


...


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## Interloc

#30 and #15 are the same price around here but you only get 2sq a roll with 30 and 4sq with 15, so really i guess there not the same price..duh what was i thinkin??


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## RoofersEdge

If you are talking about a #15 felt paper, then this is not a 15lb felt these days. This is a common mistake made by roofers when purchasing until they actually go to roll it out. #15 felt is in between an 8-10lb felt (depending on manufacturer), which I personally would never use if I were a serious roofing company. A 15lb felt has to say 15LB not #15 for it to be true. This is a marketing tactic by the manufacturers to sell you a felt for "cheaper". I deal with this everyday and I roll my eyes every time somebody says to me "give me the cheapest". If you are willing to use a 30lb felt paper then you would be almost better off using a thinner Ice & Water protector, for this will adhere to the surface without having to worry about a specific fastner.


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## Interloc

RoofersEdge said:


> If you are talking about a #15 felt paper, then this is not a 15lb felt these days. This is a common mistake made by roofers when purchasing until they actually go to roll it out. #15 felt is in between an 8-10lb felt (depending on manufacturer), which I personally would never use if I were a serious roofing company. A 15lb felt has to say 15LB not #15 for it to be true. This is a marketing tactic by the manufacturers to sell you a felt for "cheaper". I deal with this everyday and I roll my eyes every time somebody says to me "give me the cheapest". If you are willing to use a 30lb felt paper then you would be almost better off using a thinner Ice & Water protector, for this will adhere to the surface without having to worry about a specific fastner.


 Is not this the # (POUND) key??


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## RoofersEdge

Interloc said:


> Is not this the # (POUND) key??



It depends on the manufacturer. I know that Warrior, IKO, BP all have a #15 as well as a 15lb. Just make sure that it is 15lbs per 100 sq ft and you will be fine. If you are going to spend money on cap nail fastners, I still believe you would be better off using a cheaper grade Ice & Water. Good Luck


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## tumpline

Roofersedge, are you in located in scarborough?


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## KenB

The best thing you can do is learn about the products you are installing, proper ways to install that product, and find out the codes in your area. Every state is different here in Wisconsin you must install ice and water barrier shield on eaves and valleys as for 15 lbs tarpaper its fine. 
Your going to have people say one thing is better then others. The only problem with 15 lb is if it gets wet it wrinkles where 30 lb won't. As for staples and cap nails if your planning on leaving the tarpaper exposed for a period of time like on a new construction use cap nails. If your shingling it right a way staples are fine as long as codes in your area dont state the use of capnails.
The bset advise I can give you is to have a sit down with a shingle rep. from the shingle manufacturer you like to use. They will provide you with all the information you need. Plus you'll get a free lunch. I like Owens Corning.


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## Interloc

KenB said:


> The only problem with 15 lb is if it gets wet it wrinkles where 30 lb won't.


 Any felt WILL wrinkle if wet.


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## Slyfox

What region of the Country/World we live in has a lot to do with how roofing systems perform longevity wise, so I'm giving an example of a standard roofing system for my area, not yours.

Standard system that will last 17 yr's too 23,24 yr's problem free
(minus storm or other non workmanship related issues),
for those home owners looking to buy a Malibu of a roof rather than a Cadillac of a roof, for what ever their reason maybe.

I&W shield on eaves and at least 6' up valleys from the eave.
15# felt.
Timberline, Heritage, Land Mark, etc, etc, etc, standard dimensional shingle.
Normal pipe, wall, eave/rake, etc, flashing's.
Ventilation "exhaust", ridge or turtles/box.

In my area if you properly install the above materials on a 4/12 - 6/12 pitched roof you'll have just under 20 years of a problem free roof,
On an 7/12 - 8/12 you would expect between 25 and 30 years.
The steeper the slope the more years you can expect to get out of it.

Just because 15# felt is the cheapest on the market doe's not mean it don't work.


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## The Roofing God

the plastic strip on the ice shield edge is for a clean area (non granulated) that the next course of ice shield can properly adhere to,Realize that Ice and water shield should also be installed a minimum of 2 ft. past the inside bearing wall of the structure,so check the size of your overhang/soffit,and 6-8" of wall thickness,and calculate what you need by adding 2 ft. to the measurements,you`ll find in most cases ,1 strip (3 ft.) of ice shield is not enough to meet the requirements.

Most mfgrs require 15# felt for breathing purposes regarding condensation,etc. and is meant for asphalt shingles,30 # felt is thicker.more waterproof,but doesn`t breathe,and will buckle under the shingles if condensation is present,that same extra strength to the 30# felt can be detrimental in these cases,as the asphalt shingles can buckle as a result---30# is typically meant to be used under slate roofing


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## VermontRoofing

*Vermont Roofing*

My thoughts on this all changed a few years back in an instant it all became very clear in regards to how to install the felt paper.

I tried a new underlayment product that was called RoofTop Guard II
Other similar products are DiamondDeck, Titanium, etc...

After I had just begun the installation I quickly realized the answer it was do not use felt paper, but if you do use felt paper nail it down with metal discs so it will not blow off.

As to after the shingles are on it will not blow off is true, but when high winds blow the shingles off there goes the felt paper.

With the other products I have listed above such as RoofTop Guard II for example when installed properly is stated as hurricane proven I do not remember the specifics of what the exact wind rating was and this differs between products. They install faster, they come in larger widths so they cover more square feet, are very durable, tear resistant, water resisitant, and provide good traction.

In my area it is a strike against your company to try and sell a roof with felt paper. Unless it is a requested cheap as you can do it job.

Just my preference, and seems to make customers happy, hope this assists others.

Chittenden Builders
Shake Hands Online


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## Interloc

VermontRoofing said:


> In my area it is a strike against your company to try and sell a roof with felt paper. Unless it is a requested cheap as you can do it job.


 This is dumb considering felt is a proven system, when done rite, roofers in "your area" must not be educating your customers...:no:


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## VermontRoofing

*Vermont Roofing*



Interloc said:


> This is dumb considering felt is a proven system, when done rite, roofers in "your area" must not be educating your customers...:no:


Thank You for pointing this out to me in such an intelligent easy to understand manner. Nice to meet you.

Exactly the opposite we are educating our customers and providing them with literature on the best products so they are able to make a more educated decision. My competitors are also.

Most times as soon as an individual looks at both felt paper and one of these other products it becomes immediately obvious to most people that they are a superior product.

We still use felt paper occasionally I did not say it doesn't work.

When the high winds came through last fall many houses lost large sections of shingles from their roofs and the felt paper went with them. Diamond Deck, RoofTop Guard II, Titanium, etc.. have pre-marked nailing patterns which when followed and installed properly nailing through discs will still be on the roof after the storm. This has been proven under hurricane force winds, but it is bye bye felt paper.

Like I said felt paper is great for a cheap as you can do it roof.

I am always interested in learning new things and further educating myself so feel free to continue to enlighten me when you have the time.

Thank You for sharing that valuable knowledge with me and everyone else.

Chittenden Builders
Shake Hands Online


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## Interloc

To each there own there guy, personaly I hate the synthetic stuff but if you like it good for you, around here felt is awsome but we dont get hurricanes but lots and lots of rain and we have had no probs with felt, but to sit here and say its the cheapest, then yes i guess i do have to enlighten you...i suppose you believe the lifetime warranty as well? eh?..:whistling:


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## ExpertStormRepair

There are so many other things to consider before upgrading from felt paper.... Starting with Zip System sheathing....and obviously upgrading to the very last piece of copper counter flashing..... But Vermont Roofing made a good point, with Deck Armour or anything similar, the underlayment will ussually stay intact even if the shingles are a gonner... www.expertstormrepair.com


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## skiballs

VermontRoofing said:


> Most times as soon as an individual looks at both felt paper and one of these other products it becomes immediately obvious to most people that they are a superior product.
> 
> We still use felt paper occasionally I did not say it doesn't work.
> 
> When the high winds came through last fall many houses lost large sections of shingles from their roofs and the felt paper went with them. Diamond Deck, RoofTop Guard II, Titanium, etc.. have pre-marked nailing patterns which when followed and installed properly nailing through discs will still be on the roof after the storm. This has been proven under hurricane force winds, but it is bye bye felt paper.
> 
> 
> 
> Chittenden Builders
> Shake Hands Online


So let me get this customer education thing strait.
You, " We use this here hi-teck underlayment because you live in a high wind area and since were going to install cheap three-tab shigles, that will most likley blow off at some point, you raelly need to use this stuff ".
Customer, " Now I understand".


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## VermontRoofing

skiballs said:


> So let me get this customer education thing strait.
> You, " We use this here hi-teck underlayment because you live in a high wind area and since were going to install cheap three-tab shigles, that will most likley blow off at some point, you raelly need to use this stuff ".
> Customer, " Now I understand".


Hello SkiBalls,

With over 40 years in business that is certainly not the approach we take when speaking to our customers or anyone else for that matter.

We actually get quite a bit of blow off here in Vermont. 
We rarely use three tab because they are not usually requested.

News Flash manufacturers are now offering a limited-lifetime warranty and we do not install anything less, previously we would not install anything less than a 30 year shingle.

It provides a homeowner with peace of mind to know for a few hundred dollars extra they have a hands down superior product on their roof so in the event this occurs they are further protected. When a homeowner invests thousands of dollars into their roof and they care about their home then 99% of the time they choose the better products.


Once again, shingles now come with a limited-limited lifetime warranty.

I do appreciate all your positive feedback because it has certainly added an extreme amount of value for everyone who reads this forum.


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## [email protected]

*Stinger and pnuematic plastic cap staplers*

I tried the Stinger stapler because my boss wanted me to try it out. I was very skeptical. So I tried it out. It works good for short work but if you are pumping out alot of felt you will go thru one each month. I experienced a few blowoffs but in idaho we don't get alot of rain. I used the pneumatic and liked that mainly for output and holdown was fine here. I have seen some actual plastic cap nailers and was wondering what brand would be a good one. We don't use many of them in this area that I have noticed.


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## vtroofing

I agree with Vermont Roofing (not to be confused with VTROOFING-me) on the benefits of synthetics as far as ease of use, durability and my favorite GAF Deck-Armor Breathable. Comparing Deck-Armor to felt, 

Felt dries and curls, bubbles overnight that telegraphs through your shingles.

Felt blows off right along with shingles. 

Deck Armor breathes 16 perms
15# felt 6 perms
30# felt 5 perms

Deck Armor lays flatter, faster and withstand up to 180 days UV degradation left exposed. 

Deck-Armor has a 25 year warranty, what does felt look like after 20?

I've yet to see felt do that. Have you?


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## 2ndGen

elsmootho said:


> Reading manufacturers recommendations, i came across a statement to hold down felt paper use nails only. Does that mean Don't use staples? I use the standard U shaped 1/2" staples, is there a risk the felt will tear underneath the shingles once the whole job is finished? (due to thermal expoansion/contraction etc).
> 
> Thanks to all...
> ..s


Doesn't matter. Once the shingles are on, they'll have a zillion nails through them anyway. 
It's wise to not remove/paper what you can't cover in the same day with shingles anyway.


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## kimboy

Seen a 30# felt at ire show where u can gun down with coil nailer was cool for fl guys no caps needed. Way fast kind a cool idea. I thought for speed


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## aac_cos

*Roofing Terms and Explinations - Great for new salesmen*

http://aac-colorado.com/roofing_terms_and_explinations.pdf

Not sure where this came from but I have had it for a LONG TIME, hope I don't get in trouble for posting a link to it :thumbup:

I always give it in a new employee packet just for review and it's clean and simple. NOT all still apply but a new guy can sound like they have been around a while LOL.

Hope this helps.







elsmootho said:


> Thanks Ridgewalker,
> I'm a bit of an amateur (only done 3 roofs), so this is new to me.
> 
> I'm so much of an amateur i'm not even sure what nails to use.
> i've been using 1" galv nails to hold down your regular 25yr three tab shingles.
> 
> Now i'm gona install some Architectural 40year shingles and because they are thicker, i wonder if i should be using 1&1/4" nails? Typically, what does everyone use?
> 
> Thanks for your support, much appreciated...
> 
> ..s


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## ExpertStormRepair

I never got a response.....
____________________________________________________________________
www.expertstormrepair.com


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## aac_cos

*Felt paper*

Another thing to consider is the safety of the crew while installing on steeper roofs. # 15 on a steeper roof tends to tear with the crews on it. # 30 holds up much better and safer for the crew while installing!

I totally agree on the fact that when a wind storm decides to remove shingles, a felt that is twice as thick stands a much better chance of keeping the property water tight until a temporary (or permanent repair) can be performed. 

Another word on blowing off shingles. We all need to work in winter conditions however when shingles are installed and don't have a chance to seal on a hot day bonding the adhesive strip, dirt and dust can and will work its way between the shingles coating the adhesive strip and THEN THEY WILL NEVER BOND and then when a wind storm comes around, the roof is very susceptible to becoming removed. 

We have all been on roofs and found shingles not bonded and we all know the chances of a winter install was responsible for the condition that exists.


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