# Thoughts on JM single ply?



## Grumpy

<DIV class="post entry-content "><!--cached-Wed, 08 Feb 2012 15:52:24 +0000-->You don't hear alot being said about Johns Manville single ply. Just curious as to everyones opinion of their product. <BR></DIV>


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## 1985gt

Were set up for it, Haven't used it yet though. We are working on doing one where someone royally screwed up a JM roof and we will be going back in to replace it. It's not a product fault its probably one of the worst install jobs I have ever seen though. I don't expect JM's stuff to be much different then anyone else though.


Edit: What the hell is wrong with all your posts?


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## Grumpy

I figured it out today. If I copy and paste something I posted elsewhere, it reformats here. Well, not sure which forum is at fault since both updated their software at the same time. I just have to be more diligent I suppose. Will likely have to edit in the future. I'm not going to bother for now.

Back on topic. We've worked with it a few times. It seems to be on par with the other big boys. We are currently Genflex certified, but will use other products if it's a non warranted job. I just completed 2 condominiums about 8,500 sq ft each. They now want a 3rd one, but though they passed on the optional NDL on the 1st two roofs, they want it on the 3rd roof for some reason. Well since they passed on the 1st two roofs, we used JM simply due to economics. So I wish to use this as an opportunity to get another certification. 

Here is the thing though. I inquired about getting certified with JM back in the day, I think before I started my business. The sales rep really didn't want to bother. A colleague of mine contacted them to get certified and they implied that he wasn't running a legitimate roofing company because they have "construction" in the name. I sent the sales rep an email, no response, I called him this morning and he said he'd call me back next Monday. I have to say I wasn't surprised LOL. 

I know I am not a big player, and I know 85 squares isn't much to these companies (but it's a decent roof for me) but how do they expect a guy to get a start? I guess I should go back to the Genflex, but I really want a PVC certification and don't want to have to buy direct like DL and IB.


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## Pie in the Sky

Grump, 

As I have said Before JM's C-3 PVC sheet is a great sheet. Made by Cooley and distributed by JM, I will always reccomend it. As far as company politics and policies I cannot speak to them. I never reccomend the 20 Year NDL on that roof if it was a good installer. 

Hope that helps. :thumbup:

D


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## 1985gt

I would say if your having problems with the rep look else where. Versico offers PVC and TPO also. 

Last I knew JM was trolling for installers and they were setting up just about anybody, a lot like everyone else now a days. I surprised they didn't set you up. 

I'd look at other options. One of the manufactures out there want your business. Even if its 85 sq at a time. Heck a number of contractors right now would love to have 85 sq's to install.


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## Grumpy

GT, I have a Versico story... as I think you know I am Genflex Certified, but I really want a PVC certification too (and don't want to buy direct like DL and IB) and almost went with Versico last year but that fell through due to a very unethical consultant and is a topic for a whole other discussion. Let's just say after calling in a bunch of favors with Versico and my supplier and the local sales rep to dismiss the "mandatory" training, I am emberrased to ask again after the last fiasco.


Edit: Ok Consultant story below. I think we spoke about him via phone last year GT. Maybe my mush brain is confusing things. Anyways, I was awarded a job verbally by a consultant I had never worked with before but who I had bid a few jobs. I told him I wanted to run it through Versico because I was Genflex certified but that I was trying to get Versico certified and would use this job as their "on site training". So I contacted Versico, they wanted me to do the boot camp, I told them I really didn't want to that we'd been installing tpo for a few years and wouldn't they just come check us out. The local sales rep is pretty unresponsive so I ended up dealing with the Carlisle and versico regional rep directly (same person). After a little begging he agreed they'd issue a conditional certification and come out to do an on the job training/inspection a few days after we had begun the job before they issued a final certification. 

OK then after I go back to the consultant and say we're approved, fax him the approval letter, etc... he drops a bomb on me. I am to change my contract, add money to the job, and give him the extra money. I told him to take a jump in a lake and declined. When I informed Versico that the job fell through, they were not to happy with me after all the begging and pleading I had done to get them to waive the boot camp in lieu of on the job training.


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## Pie in the Sky

Grump,

I can’t say enough about Sarnafil, I have done well with them but they may be difficult to get approved for. 

JM like I said is good membrane, not sure about the Company.

Then Fibertite is a good option. It’s a KEE but apparently it welds like a dream. Plus it has this RIDICULES puncture resistance you could use to help sell it to clients. Ive heard sometimes there sales reps can act as consultants so be careful of that.

I never had Carlisle/Versico PVC awarded on one of my jobs either. I didn’t even want to spec it because it’s a newer formulation I believe that is being produced by HPG. The only reason I did was because of the Brand name and knew they stand behind a failure. 

Dustin


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## 1985gt

Grumpy said:


> GT, I have a Versico story... as I think you know I am Genflex Certified, but I really want a PVC certification too (and don't want to buy direct like DL and IB) and almost went with Versico last year but that fell through due to a very unethical consultant and is a topic for a whole other discussion. Let's just say after calling in a bunch of favors with Versico and my supplier and the local sales rep to dismiss the "mandatory" training, I am emberrased to ask again after the last fiasco.
> 
> 
> Edit: Ok Consultant story below. I think we spoke about him via phone last year GT. Maybe my mush brain is confusing things. Anyways, I was awarded a job verbally by a consultant I had never worked with before but who I had bid a few jobs. I told him I wanted to run it through Versico because I was Genflex certified but that I was trying to get Versico certified and would use this job as their "on site training". So I contacted Versico, they wanted me to do the boot camp, I told them I really didn't want to that we'd been installing tpo for a few years and wouldn't they just come check us out. The local sales rep is pretty unresponsive so I ended up dealing with the Carlisle and versico regional rep directly (same person). After a little begging he agreed they'd issue a conditional certification and come out to do an on the job training/inspection a few days after we had begun the job before they issued a final certification.
> 
> OK then after I go back to the consultant and say we're approved, fax him the approval letter, etc... he drops a bomb on me. I am to change my contract, add money to the job, and give him the extra money. I told him to take a jump in a lake and declined. When I informed Versico that the job fell through, they were not to happy with me after all the begging and pleading I had done to get them to waive the boot camp in lieu of on the job training.


I think I remember talking with you over bits and pieces of that job. Only other option I see is GAF. They don't have EPDM yet though. The sales rep was in the other day here and said they are working on it but just opened up more ISO plants so it will be awhile yet. I've never used GAF's PVC but I do like their TPO.

Seems you have a hell of a time with reps and manufactures. We've been lucky and haven't had that problem. They seem to want us to install their products based on our past experience. With GAF we did a couple of really large hot jobs and they just seem to want to throw us the TPO and PVC. Does mule hide make a PVC? :laughing: other then those I don't know how many options you have.


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## Grumpy

GAF has been pushing hard in my area lately. Only problem is I don't think any of my vendors where I have accounts sell GAF. That's the big thing cash flow and credit. Probably have to go find a bank willing to give me a line of credit since the suppliers are tight tight tight. I'll have alot more freedom then. 

You know the reason I have had a hell of a time has to be me. I am the common denominator. Oh sure we are a big market, and have a ton of established big boys, but at the end of the day I am what is holding me back. That's why I am trying to hire an experienced commercial roofing sales rep, to bring me to that next level and give me a kick in the pants. I've gotta be missing something and don't see what it is. Well I know a few things: Our price is high, I don't like consultants, architects, general contractors or engineers, that excludes me from alot of work. We don't have a ton of experience with the "big jobs". We have hundreds of small jobs though. I think we do a great job on the roofs, very seldem do we ever have a problem, but I am still getting over the learning curve of the "commercial" side of the business. I say all the commercial work we have is by accident lol. 


So I decided that if I don't hear from the JM rep on MOnday, as he promised, on Tuesday I will file the pre-job with Genflex. They've been good to me anyways (for the most part except for some snafus on them paying me for warranted work, but we eventually got that ironed out and I've done some more warranty work for them since.) I'll just have to find credit and stick with GenFlex until the others come beating down my door like they do yours. Then the shoe will be on the other foot muhahaha (evil laugh).


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## 1985gt

UGh I hate when I type up a big long post and then it doesn't send! I'll bullet point it for you.

* Keep up the good work. One day you will get to where you want to be.
* Public bid jobs and working with architects is a pain in the ass, you end up doing more paper work.
* 10 20 sq jobs makes more then 1 200 sq job.
* Do more gun smithing and when you have made it you then can sit on a island some place with a umbrella drink. 
* Don't forget my plane ticket, I like umbrella drinks.


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## Grumpy

10 20 square jobs do make mroe than one 200 square job on paper until you factor in my time measuring, estimating, selling, permitting, inspecting, collecting, customer serving. That's why I am trying to go after the bigger jobs. I need to reduce my work load even if I make less gross profit per square. I still feel it'll be more net profit per my hour. 

Got an invite to a Versico seminar. This is my opportunity to redeem myself (maybe). Now I gotta find someone to take my daughter to school and watch my son for half a day. Or I can't go.  Working part time sucks!!!


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## 1985gt

That all depends on 200sq jobs we are generally bidding against others with lower profit margins. on 20sqs alot of the times we maybe the only ones they call. Plus the little things add up on the little ones. I know I don't charge by the foot on things like caulking but by the tube. along with other things similar.


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## Grumpy

Well the rep said he would call me Monday. It's now wednesday and no call, so Eff him. I am filling out the pre-job survey with Genflex (taking a break to rest the brain  )


GT, my point about the bigger jobs was this: Let's say on residential I want to make $1,000 a day per crew, but an average job takes only a day to complete. Now let's say I'm ok with $750 per day per crew on commercial, but the job may take 3 weeks to complete. Here is why I am OK making less. It's going to take me about the same hours of MY time to run the estimate and sell the job. Maybe an hour more per estimate, BUT on residential I might need 20 leads a week but on commercial I might need 20 leads a month. Right there I am saving a tremendous ammount of time.

On any job I like to show up at the start og the job as well as perform a final inspection. That's no less than 3 visits to a job when you factor in the estimate. With residential that's drastically increases the ammount of time I spend when you factor MY time per square. 

Plus constantly chasing the next job sucks with residential. To know you have 3 weeks of work ahead of you takes off a burden. I can run less leads, spend less time and provide better customer service. I can't find the down side.


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## 1985gt

I understand what your saying.  Sounds like you need a little more help in the ol' office there. :thumbup:


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## Grumpy

I need help period, that's why I have been posting help wanted ads and interviewing potential sales reps. I only work part time, I watch my kids 2-3 days a week. However I definetly need sales help, as well. But even if I had all that there is a matter of my time. Why work 60 hours if I can acheive the same in 35? Know what I mean?


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## 1985gt

I barely get what I need to get done in 50 hours a week. Could be worse I think the boss sleeps here.


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## Grumpy

When I was the most profitable back in 2008, I worked maximum 35 hours. I had someone to do everything. Up until 2006 I was losing money I think, dates are foggy right now. 

I had really built my business into a nearly self sufficent business model. I had a salesman selling, production manager handling the ordering of materials and scheduling of crews. Administrative assistant taking care of phone calls, billing, and a part time book keeper taking care of accounts payable. 

That only lasted a year as my only real sales rep died, the rest couldn't sell and got fired or quit, then the economy tanked, and before you knew it Iw as back to working 60 hour weeks and still couldn't support the overhead on my own. Then I decided to have another kid and began working 35 hours as I watch the kids 2-3 days a week. 

Now we are going way off topic to the original discussion about JM single ply, but my goal for this year is to fine at least one sales rep, preferrably commercial. I can still only work 35 hours, but that'll be the key to my success again. As the owner of my business I beelive my business should work for me, not the other way around.


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## Billy Luttrell

1985gt said:


> That all depends on 200sq jobs we are generally bidding against others with lower profit margins. on 20sqs alot of the times we maybe the only ones they call. Plus the little things add up on the little ones. I know I don't charge by the foot on things like caulking but by the tube. along with other things similar.



Those are my bread and butter. Whenever I am bidding a smaller (40 sq or less) commercial job, I almost always get it. When ever I bid the big jobs, I almost NEVER get them. One of the "big boys" around here just beat my bid for 140sq ballasted EPDM removal and replace with mechanically fastened TPO by over 10g's according to the building owners.


As far as the original topic on JM single ply, I do not use it (not that I wouldn't, I am just not certified by them for single plys) but by far and away they are my favorite manufacturer of torch down. I know you hate the torch grumpy, but Torch and Hot are still pretty much my bread and butter and what I am known around town for.


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## Grumpy

I hate hot, I dislike the torch


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## 1985gt

Yeah but a bur is the cat's meow of flat/low slope roofing.


Just saying. Oh and torch sucks. :laughing:


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## Billy Luttrell

Thread resurrection...

Became JM certified over the Summer...

Pros : Membranes are great, EPDM and TPO.

Cons : Their EPDM primer seems to take way to long to get tacky.

The TPO is a little more stiff feeling to me and it took a few minutes of hand welding to figure out the sweet spot of a full lap weld with out burning it black. I think the some of the other membranes weld easier but once you find the sweet spot of your timing its butter all the same. It also took a bit to figure out the sweet spot on temp and ft per minute with the robot but the robot is a rental and kinda of chitty anyways. 

Ive only put on .45 tpo and totall of about 200 squares over 5 jobs, one of which was 80 sq. Ive put on the .45, .60 and .90 EPDM and its great but like I said, it seemed to take longer for the tape primer to get tacky than other brands.


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