# Doing Business - Legal & Proper & In Writing.



## CrappieMan (Apr 16, 2010)

I have some residential construction experience, some civil construction experience and limited roofing experience. I recently spoke to a well known and reputable area roofing contractor about what his plans would be for this coming summer season. He informed me that he had enough of the headaches of being a self employed contractor and he was ready to give it up and start laying roof as a sub and charging by hourly rate or charging by the square. His primary reason(s) would be the headaches associated in dealing with homeowners where he then proceeded described several of the problems he had experienced with several property owners. They were very simple problems that simply would not have occurred if the work would have been performed under the provision of a written detailed roofing work contract.
We then discussed the possibility of me handling the sales and management end of things so that I would take responsibility of preparing the estimate costs, writing the work contracts and tending to the daily interactions with the customers. In other words all business activities would be conducted under my “doing business as” name.
Due to him not wanting to deal with the property owners he stated that he would be very well content with hiring and firing workers, managing the crews and seeing that the work be carried out in an efficient and practical manner. 
I had mentioned that since this would all take place under my “doing business as” name that I would require each and every person on the roof to sign specific forms of paper work and contracts so that I could avoid possible legal pitfalls. He wasn’t against me doing this not did he take offense in me saying this. But he did make the following comment “Oh don’t worry about that because I personally know each and every person I would have up on the roof and working and Ill assure you there wouldn’t be any problems”.

I there are some well seasoned work site veterans here that have been doing construction and roofing for several decades or more. And I can imagine some of the situations that you could probably tell about people not taking the proper precautions to protect themselves from a business and a legal point of view. I will be directing this individual to this site to read your stories so maybe you can help me out and help him out also. I simply want to keep us both out of trouble and not end up with foolish regrets for not having taken the time and initiative to do things in a correct manner. So thank you for your time and I will appreciate any and all answers and advice you might have to give.


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## Slyfox (Oct 30, 2008)

I agree everything should be in writing from who gets paid what, who has final say so on decisions (there has to be someone with 51% control), who is liable for what, how do you spend, invest, share in profits, etc.
There's a list of dozens of different items that should be in writing.

With that said, the agreement/contract should be between You and Him, not You and the Employees.
Employees come and go, you two will remain through out the course of the adventure.


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## CrappieMan (Apr 16, 2010)

I think the main issue might be we are located in a semi-rural area with multiple numbers of smaller to mid size towns where standard business agreements tend to be carried out via the "a mans word is a mans word" type of verbal agreement and the "good ole boy neighbor down the road" methods of doing business. Im not sure i want to trust

If i understand correctly im under the impression there should be two seperate types of contracts.

The first contract should be a two party contract between me and him not including any third parties.

The second contract should be individual two party contracts between him and each individual crew member with the exclusion of a third party.

Should i require that he have such a contract with each individual crew member and where would i stand in relationship to this and what degree of protection would this provide for me?


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## Slyfox (Oct 30, 2008)

My partner and I "my Brother' exchanged money and signed a contract in front of a witness 'our accountant'.
Than we wrote up an employee manual that each employee hired received and signed an agreement that they would read & practice the guidelines set forth by Fox Roofing. (set forth by Your operating Name, covers You and your Partner)

If any of your workers are sub contractors, additional contracts will be required for each of them, which would be written between your operating name and their operating name.

When I say operating name I am referring to the business name you and your partner will be operating under.


A man's handshake is his word is a great way to conduct business on pool league/bowling night, but in the business world put it in writing.


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## buildpinnacle (Apr 18, 2009)

Crappieman:

I just took a very similar jump to what you are describing about 4 months ago. I had a few key employees retire (dad, office manager, and operations mgr) all in the same year in '06 and it seems like I had picked up all their jobs plus what I was already carrying. I had stopped doing what I was good at which is sales. End story, got tired of the babysitting and brought my business to a good friend who is complete roofer. He's great at everything but sales and I really could do without anything but sales. The result 3 1/2 months later is I have already contracted my entire sales amount from last year in the first quarter. I chose to work straight commission with no responsibility and more golf. He's close to retiring so if I decide to continue his lineage we will cross that bridge when it comes. My point is this. The man with the most money in your deal will be the boss. Pride cannot be involved. It doesn't matter what the name of the company is....use the name with the best reputation. Making tons of money sovles every single argument that will ever come up.


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## CrappieMan (Apr 16, 2010)

Ive been seriously rethinking this whole issue.

I know how to measure a roof, do a materials and labor cost estimate, do a tear off and lay a new roof down. But the time it would take me to lay one square you professional guys could probably have five or more squares put down.

I have more hands on sales experience and people experience than I have roofing experience so its probably in my best interest to concentrate on doing sales. And I realize the importance of continuing to do rood work due to the fact a person cant confidently and sucessfully sell something he knows little about.


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## buildpinnacle (Apr 18, 2009)

Here is a problem that always arises between a 'salesman' and a 'roofer'. Any business man who comes up through the ranks as a roofer will never truly respect what it takes to be a solid producing closer day in and day out. Salesmen don't sweat for their money. They make the big bucks for talking to people. Any of this sound familiar? Obviously, I come from the sales side, but have learned to ignore this. Even the office staff secretly hates the succesful salesmen b/c they see them eating lunches, playing golf, wearing the collared shirts, and ulitimately increasing their workload with sales support with no increase in pay. Good salesmen shouldn't get caught up in the office drama...even from the owner. Most owners won't be smart enough to realize that the more you make, the more they make. If they used to work by the hour for fifteen hours a day on the roof, there is no amount of money you can make them to overcome the thought in the back of their mind that you are overpaid. I say this, obviously from a salesman's standpoint, but have run my own biz for over 10 years so no disrespect to the owner operators. Just know your place an do your job and expect.......excuse me, demand the same from your counterpart.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

If you are doing work without a detailed and signed cotnract you are either stupid or insane. There I said it, and I know alot of guys who I respect will read it... but most of those guys alredy know my opinion anyways. 

My wife's cousin had a whole house built on a one page proposal. LOL My roofing proposals are usually 2 pages long. if Iw ere to build a house I could see it being no less than 10 pages just for the scope of work. This is a protection for the customer as wella s for me. What I am going to do is all right here in writing down to the last tube of caulk and down to the last screw or nail. If it is not here in writing YOU MUST ASSUME it's not being done. Please do not assume that it is being done. This is true for EVERY contractor... Don't you think that if they were doing it that they would be proud of that fact and boast it?

If they are installing starters would they say that? If they are using the manufacturers hip and ridge, instead of cutting 3-tabs, wouldn't they say that? If they were doing more than the minimum code wouldn't they say that? If they were adding extra ventilation wouldn't they say that? If they were replacing the flashings, wouldn;t they say that?! If they are not putting it in writing it is not going to get done!


Ya know, we are called Roofing CONTRACTORS for a reason. That implies that there be a contract. 


Crappieman said: "I know how to measure a roof, do a materials and labor cost estimate, do a tear off and lay a new roof down. But the time it would take me to lay one square you professional guys could probably have five or more squares put down.

I have more hands on sales experience and people experience than I have roofing experience so its probably in my best interest to concentrate on doing sales. And I realize the importance of continuing to do rood work due to the fact a person cant confidently and sucessfully sell something he knows little about. "


I could not have said it any better myself. Do what you enjoy and what you do well, and hire others to do the rest. But a salesman must know what he is selling to earn the respect and cinfidence of his customer.


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