# edge work roped off AND safety monitor?



## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Bidding a project. Discussing with my foreman. He seems to think we will not only need to be roped off but also need a safety monitor at the edge work. I asked him why he thinks this, he said he read it somewhere recently. 

40' from ground to roof edge. 

We will be replacing the mansard edge, having one guy working in lift and one guy on the flat roof handing him materials and tools etc... 

It's always been my understanding it was a one or the other, but not both. Has something changed or was my interpretation incorrect all this time?


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

I hope this hasn't changed because it would price all the real contractors out of work. Never have used a safety monitor when the guys are tied off, same if guard rails are up. I hope your guy just misunderstood or something and this hasn't changed.

If it is true they might as well have 2 guys watching for every guy on the roof.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

OSHA says I am right. I called the City of Chicago office and spoke to a very helpful person named Dennis who stated "as long as their ropes and harnesses are worn and anchored correctly, that would qualify as the necessary fall protection." 

I don't know wtf my foreman read or was drinking before he read it  Scared me though. Maybe he was trying to get some extra hours for his buddy. Not on my watch!


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## Safety_Guy (Dec 15, 2011)

As long as he is properly utalizing his Personal Fall Arrest System (PFAS) than that is all he needs to do for an effective fall protection. Just make sure that he is not clipped in to the basket while he is on the flat roof (seen that beford) and make sure that the guy inside the boom lift is tied off to the basket and keeps both of his feet inside the basket (they tend to step on the rails) and even though they are tied off they can be cited under;
1926.453(b)(2)(iv)
Employees shall always stand firmly on the floor of the basket, and shall not sit or climb on the edge of the basket or use planks, ladders, or other devices for a work position.

1926.453(b)(2)(v)
A body belt shall be worn and a lanyard attached to the boom or basket when working from an aerial lift.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Safety_Guy said:


> make sure that the guy inside the boom lift is tied off to the basket and keeps both of his feet inside the basket (they tend to step on the rails) and even though they are tied off they can be cited under;
> 1926.453(b)(2)(iv)
> Employees shall always stand firmly on the floor of the basket, and shall not sit or climb on the edge of the basket or use planks, ladders, or other devices for a work position.
> 
> ...


I recall a someone used a man lift or possibly a material handler (lull) and built a basket with a seat (his legs were dangling in the air) to do this kind of work and got pinched by OSHA. I thought it was ingenious building a seat to work.


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## Safety_Guy (Dec 15, 2011)

^^^ get it approved by the manufacturer of the machine and OSHA cant do anything to you... BTW, a manufacturer will never approve amything like what u described cause of the liability issue..


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## zburger (Aug 30, 2012)

Good info guys,
Just so I'm sure, this doesn't exclude the possibility of using a Safety Monitor does it?
Most of my guys that are doing leading edge work, unless its outside gutter/drip edge mounting, just use the safety monitor system. I know that OSHA rules allow it but why does no one seem to use it as much?
Most of the reason that we allow the roofers to not use fall protection, other than a safety monitor, on something like that is because a lot of the time they spend on their knees to begin with when they're out there. Our sheet metal guys that install the drip edge will be tied off when they're continuously leaning over the edge like that.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Burger, my understanding of the safety monitor is 50 square roof areas or less only.

Why not use it? Let's see the lost production from the use of harnesses is far less than the lost production of paying one of your top guys to stand around with his thumb in his ass watching the rest of the crew working. We utilize it when necessary, but sometimes it's just more cost effective to rope. I absolutely hate seeing guys stand around, even when I tell them to (safety monitor).


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## zburger (Aug 30, 2012)

Yea, I agree with you on the lost production point. However as one that works in the safety department for my company, I do spend a few days a week in the field "monitoring" our guys so that they dont have to expend a roofer to do so.
I know that OSHA will allow you to use a safety monitor on roofs 50 feet or less in width, but also if you're using warning lines on roofs over 50 feet in width.
This is the system we tend to run with as much as possible, using myself as the monitor every now and then. Set up warning lines good and tight 6 feet at least from every edge, then the monitor must be present and near you if you cross outside those lines at any point. (Have also read that if you have established "clear work rules that prohibit workers from going outside of warning lines" that you can have your warning lines backed up to 15ft away from an unprotected edge and not use a safety monitor), but make no mistake NO ONE is permitted to travel outside the lines while this is going on. (saw that on a 'letter of interpretation' from OSHA)
Does anyone else go with this plan or is it just us? We feel that the added time of installation of guardrails, OR the added mess of dealing with 8-10 ropes, AND power cords together can sometimes far outweigh the efficiency benefits of not using one person as a safety monitor. ONLY on low slope roofs of course.
However, to be clear we encourage the use of harnesses and ropes as much as possible, but know that drilling in an anchor point to a finished roof, and messing with the lines can turn the workers off to using it, especially when they have the option of using a safety monitor.

Please weigh in with your thoughts


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

It depends on the job for us really. Each job has it's own set of challenges. We do use safety monitors as much as possible though. I do have to say I like the quick set up guard rail systems like the raptor rail, and a raptor cart is nice for a mobile tie off point. The quick set up guard rail kits are very nice compared to the old base plates and guard rails. Then again some safety systems are better suited for different jobs.


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## Safety_Guy (Dec 15, 2011)

Guys what you need to remember is that a Safety Monitor System, although allowed by OSHA on roofs 4:12 and less is NOT a 100% Fall Protection System. That monitor is not going to prevent the worker from hitting the ground. In many cases the guy will go over before the monitor will be able to yell "watch out". I always tell people that this system is to be used as a last resort. If you can erect guardrails or rope off, DO IT !!! Also keep in mind that OSHA will stop if they observe that the monitor is working and that means that he cannot have a tool belt, hold any work tools in hand, cant be sweeping or rolling the felt or ice out. In all reality I know OSHA inspectors opening up an inspection because the designated Safety Monitor was talking on his cellphone and was not paying attention to the guys working outside the flags. Or, how can you have one safety monitor doing his job when you have guys working on all 4 sides of the roof behind the warning lines? Safety Monitor in my professional opinion is a False Sense of Security, thats kind of like wearing a torn condom while having sex with a hooker. Get my point?


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Safety_Guy said:


> Guys what you need to remember is that a Safety Monitor System, although allowed by OSHA on roofs 4:12 and less is NOT a 100% Fall Protection System. That monitor is not going to prevent the worker from hitting the ground. In many cases the guy will go over before the monitor will be able to yell "watch out". I always tell people that this system is to be used as a last resort. If you can erect guardrails or rope off, DO IT !!! Also keep in mind that OSHA will stop if they observe that the monitor is working and that means that he cannot have a tool belt, hold any work tools in hand, cant be sweeping or rolling the felt or ice out. In all reality I know OSHA inspectors opening up an inspection because the designated Safety Monitor was talking on his cellphone and was not paying attention to the guys working outside the flags. Or, how can you have one safety monitor doing his job when you have guys working on all 4 sides of the roof behind the warning lines? Safety Monitor in my professional opinion is a False Sense of Security, thats kind of like wearing a torn condom while having sex with a hooker. Get my point?



hrm I'll have to find it but our last safety "director" stated that the safety monitor could do very small tasks as long as he did not loose eye sight with person he was monitoring. had a broom ext...

Also, while it may be a "last resort" to some picture this. You have a 50 sq job, simple tear off gutters on all four sides the building is 40' x 125' ,20' high. Setting up 330' of guard rail will take approximately 1/2 hour per 8' section per 2 guys, this includes getting the rail to the roof. so it takes 21.5 hours to set up the whole thing or a 3.5 hours for a crew of 6. 

Setting up a warning line and using a safety monitor takes we will say 1/2 of this time or 1.75.

Now the problem lies when you have to roof the 18 sq's that you couldn't roof before because of the guard rails in your way. Now you have to remove the guard rails and use a safety monitor anyway, so you add another 21 or so man hours to the job just to deal with that. 


With the paper thin margins roofing has now a days this may not alway be feasible to set up a guard rail system. Especially on a weeks worth of work. Now if it was 500 sq or even 200 sq. then setting up a system is much more feasible. 


Take for instance one of the jobs we are on now, roughly 300 sq total multi levels, we have a combo of guardrails, guardrails that clamp to walls and warning lines.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

I'm with you GT on the small job scenario, but OSHA doesn't care how long it takes. Mark it into the cost of the job says OSHA. Live in the real world, OSHA, says Grumpy. 

When erecting guard rails, warning lines, etc.. I like to send out a crew of 2 or 3 on the day the material is getting loaded. Saves having guys stand around watching other guys install rails, 6 guys to install rails is a little hefty . Plus then the next day the full crew can start fresh rather than have 6 guys work a half day, you have 3 work a full day. I wouldn't dare start a tear off after noon.


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## Captain (Jul 27, 2012)

Ok this is the rules on the Safety Monitor system. The safety monitor cannot have any job other than watch the men work. He must wear clothes (bright orange vest) that distinguishes him from other workers. He must have experience in the task at hand and how to mitigate risk. Any man working outside the 10' perimeter must have adequate fall protection ie. full body harness with retractable or rope grab system. We learned this the hard way on a highrise in Philly, which just so happened to be across the street from the Phila. OSHA office, $71,000 fine.


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## Safety_Guy (Dec 15, 2011)

@Captain: That must have been a Willfull Citation or your 5th repeat within 5 years. Ouch... Did you guys Contest the citations?


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## zburger (Aug 30, 2012)

OSHA will permit a safety monitor to be used when workers ARE outside the lines to monitor the employees working outside the lines. The safety monitor, however, cannot be outside the lines while monitoring. Lines must be set up at minimum 6 feet from edge. 
AND, if the lines are pulled back to 15 feet from the edge, and there is clear work rules PROHIBITING any worker from stepping outside the lines (and a few other paperwork items) a safety monitor is not needed.

Captain, Please go into detail about your citation, as everything I have read has lead me to believe what I just wrote. I've seen nothing saying that a safety monitor cannot be used while workers are outside the lines. 
If that's true how the f*** do they expect roofers to get any kind of work done without spending 1/2 day or a full day installing guardrails..

We know that a safety monitor won't save someone's life, but it sure beats having 8 ropes tangled up in each other and the added time of untangling, and re-hooking. WTF OSHA?!


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

zburger said:


> If that's true how the f*** do they expect roofers to get any kind of work done without spending 1/2 day or a full day installing guardrails..
> 
> We know that a safety monitor won't save someone's life, but it sure beats having 8 ropes tangled up in each other and the added time of untangling, and re-hooking. WTF OSHA?!


As I previously stated, mark it into the cost of the job. That's what OSHA told me at a seminar once. They live in government world. We live in the real world.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Captain said:


> Any man working outside the 10' perimeter must have adequate fall protection ie. full body harness with retractable or rope grab system. We learned this the hard way on a highrise in Philly, which just so happened to be across the street from the Phila. OSHA office, $71,000 fine.


Flying a BS flag here, first of all its 6', and why would you need a safety monitor inside the "safe zone" If they are wearing harness or other safety devices there would not be a need for a safety monitor. 

Remember the OSHA inspectors are not god. They make mistakes too.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

From the OSHA site. I did not see anything about safety orange but we have been told the same thing by OSHA.



> Low-slope Roofs
> 
> Each employee engaged in roofing activities on low-slope roofs with unprotected sides and edges 6 feet (1.8 meters) or more above lower levels shall be protected from falling by guardrail systems, safety net systems, personal fall arrest systems or a combination of a warning line system and guardrail system, warning line system and safety net system, warning line system and personal fall arrest system, or warning line system and safety monitoring system. On roofs 50 feet (15.24 meters) or less in width, the use of a safety monitoring system without a warning line system is permitted.






> Safety Monitoring Systems
> 
> When no other alternative fall protection has been implemented, the employer shall implement a safety monitoring system. Employers must appoint a competent person to monitor the safety of workers and the employer shall ensure that the safety monitor:
> Is competent in the recognition of fall hazards;
> ...





> Warning Line Systems
> 
> Warning line systems consist of ropes, wires, or chains, and supporting stanchions and are set up as follows:
> Flagged at not more than 6-foot (1.8 meters) intervals with high-visibility material;
> ...


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## Captain (Jul 27, 2012)

1985gt said:


> Flying a BS flag here, first of all its 6', and why would you need a safety monitor inside the "safe zone" If they are wearing harness or other safety devices there would not be a need for a safety monitor.
> 
> Remember the OSHA inspectors are not god. They make mistakes too.



(i) When mechanical equipment is not being used, the warning line shall be erected 
not less than 6 feet (1.8 m) from the roof edge. 
(ii) When mechanical equipment is being used, the warning line shall be erected 
not less than 6 feet (1.8 m) from the roof edge which is parallel to the direction of 
mechanical equipment operation, *and not less than 10 feet* (3.1 m) from the roof 
edge which is perpendicular to the direction of mechanical equipment operation. 


Last time I checked rhinos don't always move 1 direction, 10' is a good rule. And safety monitors are only used inside the safe zone, the reason being a perimeter line system will bend or break and men will abuse it. Sure most of us break the rules but bottom line is if your working on an unprotected edge the guys should be tied off, we all know someone who died.


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## Captain (Jul 27, 2012)

Safety_Guy said:


> @Captain: That must have been a Willfull Citation or your 5th repeat within 5 years. Ouch... Did you guys Contest the citations?


Not much to say, we were doing a highrise downtown with multiple terrace decks, 3' wide shelves and no safety equipment. There was a crew of 15-20 men working on multiple levels, the entire job was a walk-off. We had no perimeter system in place, they say it was imminent danger because of the confined areas. 

At the time it was the largest roofing co in Phila, there were 220 union roofers and yes there were multiple citations over the years and they were always contested.


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## Captain (Jul 27, 2012)

Captain said:


> Not much to say, we were doing a highrise downtown with multiple terrace decks, 3' wide shelves and no safety equipment. There was a crew of 15-20 men working on multiple levels, the entire job was a walk-off. We had no perimeter system in place, they say it was imminent danger because of the confined areas.
> 
> At the time it was the largest roofing co in Phila, there were 220 union roofers and yes there were multiple citations over the years and they were always contested.


Another one on 24th floor


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Captain said:


> (i) When mechanical equipment is not being used, the warning line shall be erected
> not less than 6 feet (1.8 m) from the roof edge.
> (ii) When mechanical equipment is being used, the warning line shall be erected
> not less than 6 feet (1.8 m) from the roof edge which is parallel to the direction of
> ...


Your interpreting the rules wrong. A safety monitor is to be used when a work is out side the flag lines. Inside the area you do not need a monitor, it would be pointless.


We've actually never had anyone die here in 30+ years, If I can recall correctly we have had 3 falls. One I personally took the guy to the hospital. It wasn't pretty but it could have been worse of course. I don't know of anyone personally who has died from a fall, I hope to keep it that way.


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## Captain (Jul 27, 2012)

1985gt said:


> Your interpreting the rules wrong. A safety monitor is to be used when a work is out side the flag lines. Inside the area you do not need a monitor, it would be pointless.
> 
> 
> We've actually never had anyone die here in 30+ years, If I can recall correctly we have had 3 falls. One I personally took the guy to the hospital. It wasn't pretty but it could have been worse of course. I don't know of anyone personally who has died from a fall, I hope to keep it that way.


Lol OK ask OSHA about that one, what's a monitor going to do reach out and pull them back on the roof?? Someone cuts a flag line accidentaly and the 1st year ape is backing up a power buggy and doesn't look and walks right off the roof, yes it's happened. That's pretty impressive you don't know anyone that died, I know 3 men and stories of another 15~20, anyone who doesn't think flat work is dangerous must not be paying workman's comp. Bottom line is unless you want to erect perimeter guards around all leading edges, you should follow the monitor system. Safety is what sets our company apart from the pickup truck hacks


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Captain said:


> Lol OK ask OSHA about that one, what's a monitor going to do reach out and pull them back on the roof?? Someone cuts a flag line accidentaly and the 1st year ape is backing up a power buggy and doesn't look and walks right off the roof, yes it's happened. That's pretty impressive you don't know anyone that died, I know 3 men and stories of another 15~20, anyone who doesn't think flat work is dangerous must not be paying workman's comp. Bottom line is unless you want to erect perimeter guards around all leading edges, you should follow the monitor system. Safety is what sets our company apart from the pickup truck hacks



I copied and pasted what OSHA has to say about it before I'll do it again...



> Safety Monitoring Systems
> 
> When no other alternative fall protection has been implemented, the employer shall implement a safety monitoring system. Employers must appoint a competent person to monitor the safety of workers and the employer shall ensure that the safety monitor:
> Is competent in the recognition of fall hazards;
> ...


If your "pickup truck hacks" comment was directed at me, I guess if you consider being in business for 30+ years and having 0 OSHA fines considers us a hack so be it. We have been inspected by OSHA a couple of times, one of the times was in fact about warning lines or lack there of, the roof was under 50' wide. No fines... We may not have 200 + employees, but I would put our work up against the best low slope roofers any day.


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## Captain (Jul 27, 2012)

1985gt said:


> I copied and pasted what OSHA has to say about it before I'll do it again...
> 
> 
> 
> If your "pickup truck hacks" comment was directed at me, I guess if you consider being in business for 30+ years and having 0 OSHA fines considers us a hack so be it. We have been inspected by OSHA a couple of times, one of the times was in fact about warning lines or lack there of, the roof was under 50' wide. No fines... We may not have 200 + employees, but I would put our work up against the best low slope roofers any day.


No you are seeing it all wrong. I'm talking about guys with a ladder and truck that work out of a garden shed, go out and underbid everyone because they don't pay workers comp, taxes or care about the safety of their men. If you fall in that category then yes I am talking about you. 

I take this very seriously and spend a lot of money on training and equipment because when I was 18, I saw a 65yo grandfather fall through a skylight hole and get paralyzed on the spot, 1 year later he died. Another guy I worked on and off with for 10 years fell 13' off a cedar roof and died the next day, he had a wife, a mortgage and 3 step kids. I'm tired of paying out 28% for workers comp because people don't take this seriously, honestly your insurance company is the one that will get you, not OSHA. You must do good work to be in business for 30+ years and congrats for that, sorry if this offended you but it is what it is.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Captain said:


> No you are seeing it all wrong. I'm talking about guys with a ladder and truck that work out of a garden shed, go out and underbid everyone because they don't pay workers comp, taxes or care about the safety of their men. If you fall in that category then yes I am talking about you.
> 
> I take this very seriously and spend a lot of money on training and equipment because when I was 18, I saw a 65yo grandfather fall through a skylight hole and get paralyzed on the spot, 1 year later he died. Another guy I worked on and off with for 10 years fell 13' off a cedar roof and died the next day, he had a wife, a mortgage and 3 step kids. I'm tired of paying out 28% for workers comp because people don't take this seriously, honestly your insurance company is the one that will get you, not OSHA. You must do good work to be in business for 30+ years and congrats for that, sorry if this offended you but it is what it is.


I would agree, I hate that too, its the same as these shingle companies around here who think they can do flat work with subs and under bid everyone. When we ask one what the deal was he said there was plenty of commercial work to go around. This is the same company who advertised that they did 700 shingle roofs last year, they also fill out 45-60 temp work visa's a year. It's down right frustrating. The only joy I get out of it is when in a bid opening they leave $100,000 on the table. Yeah I smiled a little bit. They have no idea what it takes to work in the commercial sector. 

My father worked long and hard to make it these 30+ years, safety starts here the first day you work, you spend the morning watching safety videos and such. Plus the continued tool box talks and ect. 

As far as our shed goes, it's about 65' X 100'. The offices are about the same. :thumbup:


No offense taken, people who are proud of what they do and who they are tend to be passionate about some topics.


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## GAZ (Aug 23, 2012)

We know working at height is a high-risk activity and it’s a sobering fact that the biggest killer in construction is roofing. Around 25% of those who are killed in construction are roofers, not sure how it works where you guys are, but in the UK it is mandatory that before Starting any roofing works a risk assessment must be undertaken even if its just one tile.


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