# deteriorated plywood?



## Pie in the Sky (Dec 21, 2011)

Let’s get something going in here, ventilation is one of my favorite topics. 

I looked at a shingle roof the other day which the north side of the roof deck was very deteriorated. The roof was replaced several years before after a hail storm. Because of the soft deck on the north side at the time (preexisting condition) the contractor covered over the rotting deck with OSB. The roof has small gable end vents, 4 turtle vents (appear to have been added at the reroof indicating the roofer knew there was an issue), and 4 soffit vents in the corners. Calc’s show the ventilation is only about half of proper "design". No clear path of humidity. No bathroom vents... I was basically called in by an attorney to see if this is a result of the re-roof. It clearly was not, the roofer wouldn’t have decked over bad deck or added the turtle vents if there was not an issue prior. Homeowner is suing the insurance company for mold as a result of the re-roof.

Questions? I'd love to hear some comments.I think I came up the answer to the excessive Moisture but let’s get some banter going on before I revel my thoughts.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

"This contract does not include, unless expressly implied otherwise, any mold abatement. In addition, any warranty or guarantee given to you under the contract does not cover the costs to abate, remove or clean mold that may be found in the future. "

This is on each and every one of my contracts. It has been since I started my company due to one customer who closed off this soffit vents with insulation. The bottom of his plywood was completely covered in black within 1 year time. He had a cobra style ridge vent installed that should have been adequate if the soffit vents were opened. There were soffit vents. 


What is the use of this structure, I am guessing a residence? You can easily find out how much moisture the family produces by determining the number of people dwelling within the home. No bathroom vent? Where does the moisture go? No Kitchen vent? Where the does the moisture go? It all will naturally migrate into the attic space, assuming there is no vapor barrier, and vapor barriers weren't installed on older homes. 


I take question to the roofer installing decking over decking. WTF was he thinking? The only time we do that is when we are installing over good spaced decking. Even if the spaced decking is damaged we commonly repair it before redecking. Plywood over plywood seems asinine if you ask me. 

But I am not sure what your question was, other than just for us to give our random opinions. Were you asking what we think caused the plywood delamination? 

Which insurance company is the home owner suing, his or the roofers? Why would he sue his, did the insurance company hire the roofer? I assume he is suing the roofers insurance company. My insurance company doesn't cover mold, they haven't for as long as I can remember. 


Another problem is the fact that there are gable vents, soffit vents and mushroom/turtle vents. According to some manufacturers this could cause a short circuit of the ventilation. I argue this topic often in these forums as some people disagree passionately. 


Were the growing marijuana?  No seriously did they have some kind of grow room in the house? I have seen people with large amounts of plants in their house and when you walk in the door you immediately feel the increase in humidity.


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## Pie in the Sky (Dec 21, 2011)

Grumpy, I am super Impressed.. No Really.. I think your going to Impress yourself... I’m not even going to wait for other comments, although they are welcome if I missed anything.


Grumpy said:


> This is on each and every one of my contracts. It has been since I started my company due to one customer who closed off this soffit vents with insulation. The bottom of his plywood was completely covered in black within 1 year time. He had a cobra style ridge vent installed that should have been adequate if the soffit vents were opened. There were soffit vents.


I’m actually torn here. I don’t know who’s at fault besides the initial Builder. But as a quality roofer, if you were doing the job, wouldn’t you pass the responsibility on by telling the owner they need to hire a consultant? 


Grumpy said:


> What is the use of this structure, I am guessing a residence? You can easily find out how much moisture the family produces by determining the number of people dwelling within the home. No bathroom vent? Where does the moisture go? No Kitchen vent? Where the does the moisture go? It all will naturally migrate into the attic space, assuming there is no vapor barrier, and vapor barriers weren't installed on older homes.


Were talking Denver here. Cold Climate. There was some sort of strange VR in the attic. It was aluminum foil type VR ON TOP OF the insulation. Luckily the seams weren’t taped on it because there would have been WAY more damage than just bad roof decking. 
The renters was Hispanic, very family oriented. I believe there were many people living in the house although they told me 3. When looking in the bathroom there were like 10 toothbrushes in the holder. Lots of hot showers... 


Grumpy said:


> I take question to the roofer installing decking over decking. WTF was he thinking? The only time we do that is when we are installing over good spaced decking. Even if the spaced decking is damaged we commonly repair it before redecking. Plywood over plywood seems asinine if you ask me.


He must have been trying to cut corners. The original adjuster who totaled the roof had the worst photos I had ever seen so I didnt get much background... I agree the roofer was nuts for doing it. He thought he was helping by adding the vents, and in reality, maybe he did, for all I know the mold was there prior to the reroof, no moisture was observed while I was there.


Grumpy said:


> But I am not sure what your question was, other than just for us to give our random opinions. Were you asking what we think caused the plywood delamination?


No real question, I was just trying to spark some good Posts, which it DID...


Grumpy said:


> Which insurance company is the home owner suing, his or the roofers? Why would he sue his, did the insurance company hire the roofer? I assume he is suing the roofers insurance company. My insurance company doesn't cover mold, they haven't for as long as I can remember.


Attorneys Sue everyone. there’s no Rhyme or reason. I just try and be honest, and sometimes there’s really no one to blame.


Grumpy said:


> Another problem is the fact that there are gable vents, soffit vents and mushroom/turtle vents. According to some manufacturers this could cause a short circuit of the ventilation. I argue this topic often in these forums as some people disagree passionately.


We could debate this for hours. I agree Ideally Ridge and soffit vents are best but if the soffit vents aren’t continuous, they don’t seem very effective. Really there should have been plenty of Ventilation in this roof, the issue was the moisture.


Grumpy said:


> Were the growing marijuana? No seriously did they have some kind of grow room in the house? I have seen people with large amounts of plants in their house and when you walk in the door you immediately feel the increase in humidity.


Here is the Big one. I’ve studied dozens of Medical marijuana Facilities, its legal here in CO and was in MT. When I went into their garage, what did I find. a Huge industrial grow light. When I brought it up suddenly no one understood English. I questioned the attorney asking if he knew if they were "starting plants" for a garden. He immediately went on the defensive. 
The case was closed in my eyes.
And Grump if you ever want to change professions, I will give you a Job in a second. Well done. Im speaking at the PLRB insurance conference in Chicago in Sept. on roof reparability. We should get together if I have time, Ill buy you dinner. 

They need a "Hats Off" smiley Icon for your thinking here.


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## LCG (May 30, 2011)

Dustin,

How old is the home?
How much insulation was in the attic?
What was the slope of the roof?

I have done hundreds of home inspections in Vernal Utah and ran into this more times than I can count. Usually the home was built in the mid 70's to the mid 80's (when things started being built tighter), is under insulated, under ventilated, and has a 4/12 pitch or less over a short span. This creates the perfect situation for condensation to occur. There is not enough air volume to dissipate the moisture from heat transfering from the inside of the home into the cold air of the attic, turning moisture into frost. When it warms up the condensation build up does not have enough ventilation or air volume to evaporate/dissipate thus creating mold.

We also inspected a bunch of 1850-1965 home's with 1X slats for wall sheathing, subfloor, and roof decking. No insulation, no ventilation, no problem. They were also saturated in asbestos and lead. Two of the greatest products known to man!

I always hated being called out for (legal) inspections. The wording has to be perfect or you'll find yourself being sued by the insurance company.

Being "Precisely Vague" while laying blame is always a tricky issue. 

Thats been our experience. I am curious what you actually come up with. Good Luck!:thumbup:


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## LCG (May 30, 2011)

Meant to say 1890's not 1850. 1850 would have been a log cabin! Also no insulation, no ventilation, No problem!


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## Pie in the Sky (Dec 21, 2011)

We have an Attorney/Architect on staff. If I think a project could go to litigation, he reviews it.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

I try to word everything, every word that leaves my office as if it will eb used against me in a court of law. I don't say the roof will last, I say similiar roofs have been known to last. Etc... 

Pie, I'd be glad to meet you when you come to the Chi. PM me for my private email address or cell phone. Last year I'd have taken ya up on the offer in a heart beat. But if you need someone to represent you in this area part time, that's an opportunity I'm willing to discuss.


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## Roofsafe (Oct 29, 2008)

From my experience with ventilation and roofing, the majority of the roofers I have known here in Colorado and Utah don't worry about ventilation. They will replace vents that are already there on the roof and won't do anything else, keeps down the liability.
Mold nearly killed me in "99", since then I have learned a lot about how to, kill it. I have found some simple ways to get the job done but roofers are only interested in getting the check from the HO into the bank before the heat from the HOs fingertips escapes from the paper. 
Even though I live on the edge of the desert here in western Co., mold is still a problem, attics, crawl spaces, and in the home as well, I've tried to educate most of the roofers I visit with in the valley here and all directions of the compass from here. Very few are interested, like I said, most are interested in the heat in the check. To me, ventilation is the most important part of a roof job next to the roof being done right in the first place.
We have single digit humidity most of the summer and into the fall, this spring we have been in the single digit humidity a lot already. What that means is that many people have already started the swamp cooler, a very significant source of humidity, and a lot of that is getting into the attic in homes without good or at least some ventilation. Most people think that added insulation is the answer to all the residual heat they suffer through till the temperature drops around 3 in the morning.
I have roofed 100 year old homes and installed ventilation that made the homes cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter, simply with ventilation, I have seen water condensation problems go away and mold die with ventilation. 
Agreed, not every problem with a roof can be solved with ventilation, but it will sure take a bite out of the most common problems roofers run across on a daily basis, all they have to do is take an interest.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Roofsafe said:


> From my experience with ventilation and roofing, the majority of the roofers I have known here in Colorado and Utah don't worry about ventilation. They will replace vents that are already there on the roof and won't do anything else, keeps down the liability.


MY experience is very very much the same. Roofers count the vents, they replace the vents with similiar, problem solved. Wrong, as we both know. But do you really think it keeps DOWN the liability? I think a lawyer fresh out of college could prove a "professional" roofer should know better. Afterall, if I didn't improve the ventilation on the majority of the jobs we install, we'd be voiding the manufacturer warranty on day one. 

Vern I think we can agree, most roofers only care about getting paid. That's the same of most businesses period. They are more interested in money than reputation or longevity. These are the businesses that seldom last. Don't get me wrong, I love money too, but I see the big picture and know if I stand by my standards it'll bring bigger rewards in the end. But that's what you get, when you pay your installers very low wages, you pay your "closers" very high wages and task them with the sole responsibility of producing sales. Nobody gives a chit!


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## Pie in the Sky (Dec 21, 2011)

In the specific case I am speaking of, I deducted that the roofer added the turtle vents. The underlayment matched the hole perfectly indicating it was laid first then the holes were cut through the underlayment and the plywood. I think that is a pretty good assumption. 

And when there is a lawsuit, they seem to sue everyone. I hate to say it but If a roofer touches it, he’s buying it. He is the expert and that’s what a homeowner is paying for. If you don’t like it, get out of construction. My bet is he pays for it whether his contract excludes it or not. (example: if leaks from a commercial roof cause interior damage, the warranty says they are not liable for interior damage but for the 10 dollar patch on the roof, but trust me, they pay it all the time) I mean it’s great to have that verbiage in there but if you do something negligent you’re going to pay. In this case I felt the roofer overlaying severely deteriorated plywood was negligent. But it wasn’t for me to decide, I only state facts. The plywood should have been removed, rafters examined, and new plywood installed. The vents were a great Idea, and honestly, they may have worked, I could not age the mold, it could have been from before the new roof was installed. Nothing was wet up there at the time of the inspection but it was summer...

I looked for some case law to no avail, most of these things are settled because insurance companies don’t want to set a precedence... You have to think, if they go to a trial by Jury, what will those people think? When "the people" are involved, you never know how it will go....


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## Roofsafe (Oct 29, 2008)

I tore off a shake roof in "02" that the HO was worried about delaminated plywood under the shakes. after I stripped it I went over it pretty good with the inspector when he got there. The HO was also up there with us, I thought that was unusual the HO would have so much interest but I wasn't worried.
When I finished the job I had the inspector come out and he just went over to the permit and signed it off, the HO blew up, said he wanted the inspector to go up on the roof and inspect. The inspector said he knew my work and wasn't worried about what it looked like. The HO had his way, the inspector went up and did his job, came down and told the HO right up to his face, I told you his work was good, turned around and left.
When the HO gave me my check, he said "you did a really nice job", a year later, a friend of mine was taken to court and lost his license, that's when I learned that the guy I did the roof for and had the incident with the inspector, was a construction defects lawyer. I did a couple more jobs for lawyers after that but was always a little leery about it. 
I did have one time in court, the guy was wealthy and had made a game of having some remodeling done then take the contractor to court and get his money back, the only way I was not a victim of his was, I documented things and took pictures, he took pictures as well, but not of his roof that he was suing me for. My wife saw that the pattern of the shingles was a five inch on the pictures he took of "his" roof, where the pattern I put on his roof was a four inch pattern, a few other discrepancy's on his part allowed me to win the suit.
Going to court is not a fun thing for anybody except the lawyers, win or lose, they win.


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## Pie in the Sky (Dec 21, 2011)

Good for the homeowner (even if he is an Attorney). More homeowners should educate themselves. Especially now with the internet. :thumbup:
I do a little construction defect work, and it is big business in the Denver area. I see these places that are just pieces of junk built by reputable builders with big names we all would recognize. It’s a sin because homeowners don’t know. They rely on some sweet talking salesman to be honest. These guys plan on a certain amount of litigation and settlements. If they get away with it, more cash in their pockets. Really, they all are just rolling the dice, waiting for that 6 year period to be over….


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

We did work for a construction defect lawyer. Well he was on the board for a town home association, something like 41 buildigns roofs and gutters for the whole association $897,000 job. He and I would chit chat as I do with all customers while the work was going on, and he would always be sure to tell me that our chat was worth $x dollars. He billed out $550 an hour.

He was on our ass alot though throughout the whole project. Why this ice shield? Why this felt? What is the UL rating on this? What is the ASTM on that? Even called OSHA on us (I suspect), and he was the one who pushed the association to hire us. WTF?!


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## Pie in the Sky (Dec 21, 2011)

I feel bad sending people My bill and Im not even close to that... 
10$ a minute basically.. And although he charged that, we all know he wasnt "Worth" that... :laughing:


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## Merge (Oct 22, 2015)

invest some money man and change them


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