# Might not be worth much.



## lsaver07 (Dec 14, 2010)

I'm sure everybody is probably tired of their guys not showing up, needing advances, and having enough drama to make a full time job impossible.   We'll I am about ready to give up.   I have 8 new construction roofs in the books (almost 400sq) and nobody with any talent at all to work them.   So I am looking for a new route.   The girl wants to move back to the Chicago/Milwaukee area, so I am posting some of my work with hopes that someone may spark some interest.<br><br>All roofs are hand nailed with California cut valleys.   Most roofs are Certs and about 5% OC.<br>


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## vtroofing (Sep 27, 2009)

Pretty new homes. What area are you moving from? Just curious.


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## lsaver07 (Dec 14, 2010)

Would be moving Iowa. I do around 40 homes a year


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

I'm confused. Are you lookign for work in the Chicago/Milwaukee area? If so add your name to the mailing list here: http://reliableamerican.us/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 I just filled my open position, but if you subscribe to that list you will be notified of future positions.


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## lsaver07 (Dec 14, 2010)

I am grumpy. I'm closing up. I'm not gonna drag my name through the mud by using subs. The workforce is ridicoulos here.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

lsaver07 said:


> i am grumpy. I'm closing up. I'm not gonna drag my name through the mud by using subs. The workforce is ridicoulos here.


everywhere!


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## lsaver07 (Dec 14, 2010)

I have five guys and I have had two days in the last month where all 6 of us were on the roof together


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

I've found I need to be tougher. I think I am an ******* so I soften up. This may be the situation here, maybe you need to do a public firing and that'll whip the rest of the guys into shape. Worth a try before you throw in the towel completely. 

If you do move back to the Chicago area, I am hiring a commissioned sales rep.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jan 2, 2010)

It's rough around here too.


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## lsaver07 (Dec 14, 2010)

That could very well work. (Public Firing) I'm not much of a salesman. All of my work is referrals. Those are easy. I am a 1-2 sq an hour applicator all the way. Of course all I do is the complicated stuff: valleys, saddles, flashing, etc. I'm not a [email protected]$$ either. Not even close when I compare it to the people who taught me how to work. Their drama is a full time job almost.


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## blackangus (Aug 27, 2012)

I think the problem is across all industries. Nursing homes, service jobs, truck drivers...the list goes on and on.

Truly everything went to pot when "we as a country" decided everyone needs to go to college. Abandoning the trades in education was one gigantic mistake the country may never recover from. Just my opinion.

There are good workers out there, but they are lost sitting behind a desk dreading waking up every morning going to their job.

I decided to get smaller. I used to run two crews and did 100-150 roofs per year. Now I do 20-50 jobs a year and make more money. Not just the money, but I'm a much happier person working by myself or with my two employees. We fabricate everything we can on the job and enjoy working with our hands.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Not to go too far off topic, awww hell let's go off topic  

Angus, I agree with you. The high school I went to had all sorts of shop classes, now, they renamed themselves from "tech" to "Prep" Bah Humbug! Having said that my kids will go to college. There is ALOT more money to be made working with your mind than with your hands, plus the country doesn't respect those who work with their hands anymore. Tradesmen are looked down upon, and it shows in everything even the wages. But tradesmen also do it to themselves when they go out and try to start a business and under cut the market.

I'll go a step further and hit on what you said about nursing homes etc... Yes there are idiots in every industry. The country is full of idiots. I think most people I meet on a daily basis are just plain idiots. People are not taught to think for themselves anymore. There are very few free thinkers who can look at a problem and see multiple resolutions. Most people want to be shown how to fix it, and if they can be shown then they know one way and think there is only one way. 

I can be heard saying all the time in my business, "Invest in your career." In some cases I am telling an employee to buy a tool, in toher cases I am telling him to spoend a few hours on his down time watching manufacturer videos, looking at tool catalogs to see what's out there, to read spec sheets, details, manuals, etc... Invest in your career. 

There are times when I can rattle off specifications off the top of my head, or look at a roof and think of an alternative assembly method. This is only because I read spec books and watch installation videos like porn. I don't expect people to take it as far as I do, but still if I tell you next week you're going to be doing xyz and you aren't too comfortable with xyz maybe do a google search for xyz instead of waiting for me to show you. Most people won't take the time to learn on their own.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jan 2, 2010)

It is a common problem in this industry and one I have already been well experienced with in only my third year. I would like to think I "get it" compared to a lot of other so called roofing contractors.

The problem is that too many guys might be great roofers but don't understand business at all. I just lost a 20 sq job to a guy at $4000.00. Yes. $4000.00 while I was at over 7k. My material quote for that job was $3300. I don't understand it.

Getting out of the business isn't a bad idea. I have thought about it but then there is also great money to be made at it. I am young (26) but have a nice house, nice vehicles, I can support my family and my wife only has to work part time (because she gets amazing health benefits) otherwise she wouldn't work at all. It is hard to be someone who cares about the type of work you put out when you consistently drive by those who do terrible work.

One problem here in Wisconsin is that there is no level of entry to starting a company. It honestly took me 15 minutes before I was a full out roofing company legally registered to do work in the state.

Another issue is finding quality labor. I have been fortunate to have found three good guys who do great work, care and for the most part, cause very few headaches. I went through around 100 guys already in these three years but the three I mentioned have been around for 2 1/2 now. I put a Facebook post to my Facebook acquaintances because I needed an extra laborer for a large job. Nope, not one person was interested when they found out what they would be doing.

This industry is terrible. I hope to be out of it by the time I am 30 and more into real estate.


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## lsaver07 (Dec 14, 2010)

I think I need to fire some more people. It also feels like I'm running out of guys to try. It would be a great living if you could roof yourself 23hrs a day. I'm 25 and have been doing it two years on my own. Right now I'm 125%-175% higher then everyone else. The going rate is ridiculous here. Most guys that you can get cannot do what I was doing when I was twelve.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

Roofing by yourself is a job, not a business. If that's what you like by all means go get a foreman job for another company who can handle the selling and customer service for you.


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## blackangus (Aug 27, 2012)

To go further off-topic....Grumpy, I know people look down upon the trades. It is too bad really. Knowing a trade is good way to always find work to feed your family.

I should be a 6th generation farmer, instead I'm a 1st generation hobby farmer...for now. When I graduated high school in the mid-90's, farming was absolutely horrendous, so my parents told me to go to college. 

It took me quite awhile, but I graduated with a degree in business administration & finance, with a certificate in accounting. I like numbers and finance and markets, but working inside an office makes me want to punch everyone in the face or body slam their stupid whiny idiot butts.

Now, did all this extra education help me? Probably??? Will I tell my kids to got to college? More than likely...but they will learn a trade, oh they will, just in case.


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## lsaver07 (Dec 14, 2010)

I do enjoy the working part. As far as the sales part there is no sales. My clients come to me. It's just a pain in the butt because the workforce is so lame, and the stress of them isn't worth it. One of my guys was sick today, so he went to the doctor. Turns out he has the flu. They took x-rays while he was there and said that smoking was killing him. He was so surprised he text messaged me 8 times between 1pm-3pm. Go die already, I don't care.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 11, 2011)

So you are basically a sub contractor and do roofs for builders?

Get rid of the dead weight and keep maybe 2 of the guys. Hopefully you have 2.

A 3 man crew is plenty to do those types of roofs you pictured and if you are on the crew you will make out fine.

Work it until you have the employees in line and think about whether you want more help or not.

Grumpy said "Roofing by yourself is a job, not a business.", but if you are a small sub, you are still likely to do much better than working for someone else.

As time goes on, you can decide whether you have built what it takes to move into selling contracts.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

lsaver07 said:


> I do enjoy the working part. As far as the sales part there is no sales. My clients come to me. It's just a pain in the butt because the workforce is so lame, and the stress of them isn't worth it. One of my guys was sick today, so he went to the doctor. Turns out he has the flu. They took x-rays while he was there and said that smoking was killing him. He was so surprised he text messaged me 8 times between 1pm-3pm. Go die already, I don't care.


That's where you are wrong, there is sales. Or are you a sub contractor? My clients come to me also, I don't door knock. Door knocking/cold calling is only one means of lead generation. But once my clients initiate contact with me, I still have to measure, estimate, propose, present, and sell the job. Maybe you are a subcontractor and work on a negotiated price list? Then you don't have to do this. But you still have the back end customer support, managing the customers expectations from start to finish, which is very much part of sales in my opinion. 

I'm finding a ratio of hiring to firing and learning only 20% of the population seems to be retain-able. Meaning only 20% does it seem like I like working with, or they like working with me. The scary part is that means my turn over is 80%.  But if I can keep the 1 in 5 that I hire, eventually it'll pay off and everyone working will be worth keeping. I'm learning that it just takes time to build a good company of people, and learned awhile ago to fire dead weight immediately. 

Set a vision of what you expect from your employees. Show up on time. Show up sober. Call in if/when sick. Also, Create a one or two sentence mission statement. Keep it simple, memorize it, print it. Congratulations, you have the start of your first employee hand book. Now give it to the guys and enforce it. Anyone who doesn't fit in with the vision of your company gets let go immediately. I have this, unfortunately in the past I did not enforce it as well as I should have. Cut the dead weight as soon as you notice they don't fit! Eventually you'll have only good guys.


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## lsaver07 (Dec 14, 2010)

I do some sub work here and there. Most times when the customer calls me, it's can you "do" my roof. I show up and look at it then shoot them a price on the spot. They then (90% of the time) tell me to go ahead with it because they need a roof. 
One thing that does hinder me in finding workers is all my guys are clean cut. No visible tattoos or freaky stuff. So in return I usually get high end clients. Just running thin on good roofers and patience.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

lsaver07 said:


> I show up and look at it then shoot them a price on the spot. They then (90% of the time) tell me to go ahead with it because they need a roof.


No offense, but most guys here will agree with me. If you are closing 90% you are too cheap. I've read numerous times the industry average is 25%, I expect my guys to close 33%, and I personally used to consistently close 42 % last I tracked, but I haven't tracked for 2 years. I'm betting most of the guys here who have been around a little while will be in the 30% range too. 

I once read, "You will close 30% just showing up. You will lose 30% no matter what. A perfect salesman can only close 70%. "

Nobody is perfect so nobody can close 70%. I've never met a guy who can, other than some guys who say they have but I've never seen proof. All the guys who I ever worked with 30%ish was about average.


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