# Certainteed Joins The Box Stores



## BrandRoof

I'm a huge fan of Certainteed but I must say I was a little disappointed when I did a Google search for a data sheet a found that Lowes now sells CT shingles.


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## Grumpy

NOOOOOOOOO! 

well I guess if you can't beat them, join them?  Lowes here has always sold numerous CertainTeed products including insulation and even modified bitumen and Airvent ventilation products. I suppose it was only a matter of time before they started selling their shingles. However the Lowes(es) by me is/are still an OC store. 

Once they hit the shelves in my area I will have to change mys ales pitch a little bit, but I just hope they don't cheapen their product to fit the big box market, like GAF has continually done with Home Depot in my opinion.


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## LCG

At least you will be able to buy something decent off the store floor. 

I'm just happy I have access to Malarkey's full line of shingles!


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## vtroofing

Now maybe some loud talkers will quit mentioning box stores! Back to the battles... Home Depot stocks GAF Natural Shadow- not the HD... so maybe CT will just sell the same product line through Lowe's as they do in the Professional/ Contractor Stores and all you CT lovers can get your products delivered from Lowe's.... how convenient for you, and convenient it will be to get to point out this to my Homeowners!


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## Grumpy

Why would I buy my product from a box store that COMPETES with me? I will still support the local roofing supplier even if it costs me a buck a square more than the big box. http://www.nemeon.com/ 


So you buy your GAF from home depot now you are going to tell potential customers certainteed is bad because it can be bought at lowes? I don't get that logic.


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## vtroofing

Grumpy said:


> Why would I buy my product from a box store that COMPETES with me? I will still support the local roofing supplier even if it costs me a buck a square more than the big box. http://www.nemeon.com/
> 
> 
> So you buy your GAF from home depot now you are going to tell potential customers certainteed is bad because it can be bought at lowes? I don't get that logic.


*I can see how that is easily misunderstood... Let me start again- I am not saying CT is bad. I am saying for all those that mention GAF is a Home Depot Product with the true intent to discredit the value and play up their CT product by CT not being available in box stores is now out the window. I am sure I have seen OC's knocked off as well for being available through box stores and the paying field is a little more level.*


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## BamBamm5144

vtroofing said:


> *I can see how that is easily misunderstood... Let me start again- I am not saying CT is bad. I am saying for all those that mention GAF is a Home Depot Product with the true intent to discredit the value and play up their CT product by CT not being available in box stores is now out the window. I am sure I have seen OC's knocked off as well for being available through box stores and the paying field is a little more level.*



The reason GAF is talked about as being a bad product is because it is. I am embarrassed that I used to sell those shingles and defend them. When I was an installer, all we ever put on were elks, so when GAF bought them, it was a natural transition. Then fortunately at the end of 2010, a customer requested CertainTeed and we haven't looked back.

Recently, I was looking at a bundle of GAF shingles and couldn't believe it. Did they really get rid of the granules above the tar line to "make it lay flatter" on the pallet. Get out of here.

CertainTeed Landmark Fiberglass line - The only shingle that has not had one single change to it since 1994.


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## vtroofing

Maybe you(Bamm) and Grumpy get your CT's from the same plant and maybe they are exactly how you describe them to be. 

The ones we get here are not better quality than the GAF's. Do what works for you and your customers.


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## dougger222

BamBamm5144 said:


> The reason GAF is talked about as being a bad product is because it is. I am embarrassed that I used to sell those shingles and defend them. When I was an installer, all we ever put on were elks, so when GAF bought them, it was a natural transition. Then fortunately at the end of 2010, a customer requested CertainTeed and we haven't looked back.
> 
> Recently, I was looking at a bundle of GAF shingles and couldn't believe it. Did they really get rid of the granules above the tar line to "make it lay flatter" on the pallet. Get out of here.
> 
> CertainTeed Landmark Fiberglass line - The only shingle that has not had one single change to it since 1994.


It's actually had several changes. (Landmark)
Tar moved from front to back, size changed from English to Metric. Widetrack nailing area, AR, plastic strip on back, paper to plastic wrapped, thinking there is more...

Personaly I can't work with the gafelk timberline shingles, they are total junk. Will turn down jobs they are required on. Of all the laminates on the market today put the timberline on the very bottom. The above statement is said to any and all homeowners that ask about them, I'm not shy! The ones we've tried to work with aren't from hd either they are from roofing supply chains.

The missing granuals on the timberlines is a real joke! It's easy to explain which shingle is better when you put the timberline next to any other laminate on the market today.


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## dougger222

I'm also with grump.

Why allow your competition to make money off you. 

In a pinch a bundle here or a bundle there but $5-8K roof loads? NO WAY


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## vtroofing

I have read here where GAF was a cheap box store product and if in fact they (CertainTeed) are being sold in Lowe's the mentality of only cheap products are available through box stores- those remarks can stay in the trucks as they will not work to uplift the CT product. BTW, CertainTeed Landmark- Formally Bird Landmark along with other Bird Products (now CertainTeed Products) were in the box stores- they were in Grossmans before Bird was in bankruptcy and CertainTeed bought them and dropped the Bird.

Did you guys know CertainTeed's parent company Saint Gobain owns Norandex, who stocks OwensCorning? 
I think the question may actually be big business is actually shifting Owens Corning out?

Expressing opinions here sometimes feels like a drunk bar conversation- bla bla bla. For those of you that consider yourself professional hold onto a little self respect and not put down other products to promote your own- this will lend credit to your words. 

In my experience most Homeowner's do not actually hear what is said to them- they hear how it is said to them. I gladly leave the Warranty's for all three (CT, OC, and GAF) and let the HO muddle through. We are still a small company, replacing just under 200 roofs in 2012, two OC's, 1 CT and 170 GAF's.


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## dougger222

bla, bla, bla, timberlines are junk, bla, bla, bla, timberlines are junk, bla, bla, bla.

There I said it, feeling much much better now!

Surely selling a product like timberline is a piece of cake. "they are the #1 sold laminate in the nation".

Truth is they were the first to jump the warranty from 30 to 50 years. They upped the warranty and dropped the weight per square down to 217 pounds, now that's a good business strategy.

Now with the "new" product lets see if they can make it past 12 years before they crack.

Can anybody say class action law suit???

My company is very very small as we only do about 75 roofs a year. But here's the deal instead of doing say 200 roofs and subbing them all out I work on most jobs with the subs. Since the shingles run through my hands sort of know what they like and dislike. For example, the timberlines give me slivers and being 95% of the time no gloves are on the hands it botheres them. The only advantage for the timberlines is they cut very very easy even when cold, but is that a good thing or a bad thing, remember they are only 217 pounds per square. Go on so many roofs with cracked timberlines don't feel right selling them. 

My brother does a lot of new roofs for builders who send out all types of shingles. He also agrees that the timberlines are bottom of the barrel. He'd rather put down the 25 year Iko's than the timberlines. 

To each their own and since this forum is for open discussion why beat around the bush and sugar coat things???


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## vtroofing

What do you honestly feel is more water repellent, asphalt or limestone?

Which do you honestly feel is more flexible to temperature changes, asphalt or limestone?

With temperature changes what happens to a building- it moves right? Which material do you think is more resilient to moving buildings- asphalt or limestone?

The best answer to these questions is asphalt. So carry a heavier bundle of CertainTeed up the ladder and try to lay them down this late in a season expecting the less water repellent, less flexible, less resilient, less flexible product to perform better, well I'd say you are reaping what you sold.


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## vtroofing

How can you justify the lacking CT Warranty on coverage when you are up against a GAF guy? 

What can you say to a homeowner when the GAF guy showed them the link they takes them to an online test to have the same credentials you have? 

I would love to see a pic of the your face when you show up and they are wearing a CT Master Applicator hat they were rewarded by taking a no loose multiple choice test that equates your credentials. 

You guys are probably great roofers and as this post originated, your playing field is so very uneven- and not n your favor.


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## vtroofing

dougger222 said:


> bla, bla, bla, timberlines are junk, bla, bla, bla, timberlines are junk, bla, bla, bla.
> 
> There I said it, feeling much much better now!
> 
> Surely selling a product like timberline is a piece of cake. "they are the #1 sold laminate in the nation".
> 
> Truth is they were the first to jump the warranty from 30 to 50 years. They upped the warranty and dropped the weight per square down to 217 pounds, now that's a good business strategy.
> 
> Now with the "new" product lets see if they can make it past 12 years before they crack.
> 
> Can anybody say class action law suit???
> 
> My company is very very small as we only do about 75 roofs a year. But here's the deal instead of doing say 200 roofs and subbing them all out I work on most jobs with the subs. Since the shingles run through my hands sort of know what they like and dislike. For example, the timberlines give me slivers and being 95% of the time no gloves are on the hands it botheres them. The only advantage for the timberlines is they cut very very easy even when cold, but is that a good thing or a bad thing, remember they are only 217 pounds per square. Go on so many roofs with cracked timberlines don't feel right selling them.
> 
> My brother does a lot of new roofs for builders who send out all types of shingles. He also agrees that the timberlines are bottom of the barrel. He'd rather put down the 25 year Iko's than the timberlines.
> 
> To each their own and since this forum is for open discussion why beat around the bush and sugar coat things???


Let's see some pics of all these bad TL's you've seen so many of.


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## vtroofing

How can you justify the lacking CT Warranty on coverage when you are up against a GAF guy? 

What can you say to a homeowner when the GAF guy showed them the link they takes them to an online test to have the same credentials you have? You show up and they are wearing a CT Master Applicator hat they were rewarded by equating your status? 

You guys are probably great roofers and as this post originated, your playing field is so very uneven- and not n your favor.


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## Grumpy

vtroofing said:


> *I can see how that is easily misunderstood... Let me start again- I am not saying CT is bad. I am saying for all those that mention GAF is a Home Depot Product with the true intent to discredit the value and play up their CT product by CT not being available in box stores is now out the window. I am sure I have seen OC's knocked off as well for being available through box stores and the paying field is a little more level.*


I'm guilt of doing this to discredit GAF. But let me explain where I got the idea... The local GAF rep! 

Yes, the local GAF rep told me this and I paraphrase because it was many years ago, but you'll get the moral of the story "We started selling out 2nds to home depot to move product. But it really took off and we began shipping them regualr product too. Then Home Depot really hit us on pricing after they got us hooked and rumor has it we had to cheapen our product to achieve the home depot price levels." 

This is what I was told by the GAF rep and a year or so later they began to lighten their product and reduce the asphalt. 

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.


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## Grumpy

vtroofing said:


> How can you justify the lacking CT Warranty on coverage when you are up against a GAF guy?


What? The CT Warranty is/was the best warranty I have read in terms of what is actually covered and what is excluded, when GAF started the Warranty War II and made their timberlines all life time. I did read most of the warranty documents and will tell you the certainteed covered the most in my opinion. They may have snuck in a change, it's not like I read the warranty's every day and I do know they change from time to time. 

I'm very curious, why do you say the CT warranty is lacking?


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## vtroofing

See attached PDF.


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## vtroofing

Grumpy said:


> I'm guilt of doing this to discredit GAF. But let me explain where I got the idea... The local GAF rep!
> 
> Yes, the local GAF rep told me this and I paraphrase because it was many years ago, but you'll get the moral of the story "We started selling out 2nds to home depot to move product. But it really took off and we began shipping them regualr product too. Then Home Depot really hit us on pricing after they got us hooked and rumor has it we had to cheapen our product to achieve the home depot price levels."
> 
> This is what I was told by the GAF rep and a year or so later they began to lighten their product and reduce the asphalt.
> 
> I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.


That is good dirt, if in fact it is dirt. Thank you for revisiting my past post- but the truth of GAF was not less asphalt- asphalt content remained the same- they did reduce the Limestone additive thus reducing weight.


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## BamBamm5144

The warranty comparison is comical. They include the master elite but not the 5 star warranty is the exact same as the master elite except CT covers a few more manufacturing defects (such as discoloration, algae).

Saint Gobain owns nearly everything. 

Douggar - I was under the impression that the weight has never changed in the landmark, that is what I was implying.

Guys around here hate CT - They bash it all the time. Then I bring in my samples of a GAF shingle and a CT shingle. I've never had anyone prefer to install a GAF after that.

I'm certified by GAF as well. Paying the money was much easier than the tests and financial checks and financial books.

I wish GAF still made a good product, they have EXCELLENT marketing, unfortunately I just can't put my reputation on the line with their product.


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## vtroofing

5 Star is new to me. So I looked it up, you are correct Bamm. Select Roofers get a Workmanship Warranty for 25 years. I did not see Inspections offered, I sincerely am curious about the details.


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## Grumpy

I include 5 star on all my shingle roofing jobs.


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## Grumpy

vtroofing said:


> That is good dirt, if in fact it is dirt. Thank you for revisiting my past post- but the truth of GAF was not less asphalt- asphalt content remained the same- they did reduce the Limestone additive thus reducing weight.


That's not necessarily true either. Because around here they had a big marketing program about their new and improved asphalt. I asked the GAF rep why their shingles weighed less, I expressed concern about the reduced asphalt, this was a different rep by the way, and the rep said "we reduced the asphalt because we could, because it's better, because we don't need as much asphalt anymore." again I'm not making this up. The GAF reps may be better trained as to not telling the truth in your area, or they are not at all trained in my area... FWIW I was at the local CRCA show about 2 years ago when I asked the rep this at their booth.


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## BamBamm5144

VT - 5 star warranty is 50 years of non prorated coverage covering materials,labor, tear off, disposal and 25 years of workmanship. ALL flashings must be replaced and they do issue a manufacturer inspection.

I've installed a lot of GAF and have personally never had problems but if you saw how the shingles we get here are made, I don't think you would install them. They are paper thin.


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## dougger222

Bam, Bam,

Thanks for bringing up vt's very flawed data.

Not only did his data not show the Certainteed 5 Star coverage it also didn't show the Certainteed 3 Star coverage.

Ok, to make this easier to understand.

Certainteed offers it's standard installation and also offers,
3 Star Coverage
4 Star Coverage 
5 Star Coverage (all flashings must be replaced)

It's my understanding that Certainteed will do random inspections with the 5 Star warranty installations.


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## dougger222

vt,

It seems a few on here are "experts" on both gaf and CT products but yet you know very very little about CT products and it's warranties.

See, we can openly discuss both brands because we have experiance with both brands.

It would be like if I ripped on Malarky up and down but never touched one of their shingles. You may sub out 1 CT roof a year but what did you learn about the product by subbing it out???


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## dougger222

vtroofing said:


> Let's see some pics of all these bad TL's you've seen so many of.


Just tried to upload them but not having any luck. Going to put them on webshots and will put the link on here.

BTW,
Didn't take very long sifting through my pictures to find your shingles with cracks in them!

I hate to say it but my primary home has timberlines on it and only two shingles are cracked but it's not quite 10 years old. Second owner house was built in 2005. The rental home has Landmarks and the lake home has XT 30's.

Not looking foward to replace the roof on the primary. Did an Eagleview, 48.73sq off 8/12 with two 18/12 terrets. A 40ft ladder fully extended is less than a foot above the eave on the back and the side of the house. Peak to ground measurement on the back according to pictometry is 55ft!

Good news is my CT rep said when it's time he'll comp half the cost of roofing materials!!!


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## Grumpy

One of my roofers has the timberline lifetimes (before everything became a lifetime) on his house. They are about 10 years old and last year he noticed are cracking like a sumnabitch. 

I don't have alot of experience with GAF, when I started my business in 2003 I really began focusing on the CertainTeed brand. However we used to install ALOT of GAF's at my last job before starting my business. I've maybe only done a dozen GAF roofs since 2003.


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## dougger222

BamBam,

The Landmark's have gone up and down a few pounds per square over the years. I recall the Landmarks when they were English were 4 bundles per square and 250 pounds per square. Got three Landmark brochures in front of me since 2010 and have three different weights!

2010 245 lbs per square
11/2010 235 lbs per square
2011 240 lbs per square

I miss the good old days when I could buy Landmarks for $40 a square...


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## dougger222

Grumpy said:


> One of my roofers has the timberline lifetimes (before everything became a lifetime) on his house. They are about 10 years old and last year he noticed are cracking like a sumnabitch.
> 
> I don't have alot of experience with GAF, when I started my business in 2003 I really began focusing on the CertainTeed brand. However we used to install ALOT of GAF's at my last job before starting my business. I've maybe only done a dozen GAF roofs since 2003.


The cracks don't care if they are 25, 30, 40, or 40 year timberlines. 

A couple years ago we replace a house and detached garage that had 12 year old timberlines on it but instead of the normal large vertical thermal cracks they had spider cracks all over it. Now you may say it could have been caused by poor ventilation which the house roof had before we replaced the decking and installed full shutes but the unheated garage roof had the most cracks!


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## Grumpy

dougger222 said:


> I miss the good old days when I could buy Landmarks for $40 a square...


About 12 years ago maybe I recall Timberlines were $55 a square, $55 for the sub, and $55 for profit is how most people priced jobs.


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## dougger222

I hope I won't get in trouble for this but,

CLASS ACTION LAW SUIT ON GAF TIMBERLINE SHINGLES

http://www.yourlawyer.com/topics/ov...ngles-Class-Action-Lawsuit-Degrading-Cracking

Looks like the above article makes mention to the timberline shingles being sold as a ASTM product while they were never tested. 

http://pbclawfirm.com/areas-of-practice/gaf-shingles-defects/

http://www.zimmreed.com/Timberline-Roof-Shingles/58735/

http://www.classaction.org/gaf-timberline-shingles.html

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Roofing-1598/2008/5/GAF-TImberline-Shingle.htm

I'm going to stop now as I could be posting links all night on cracked timberline shingles.

To be honest though I've never seen a timberline shingle crack like a few of those three tab soveriegn shingles. One roof had cracks from top to bottom on several spots. Took pics but got to dig back to my 2008 files. The homeowner seemed puzzled why his roof was leaking!


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## Grumpy

I heard after GAF changed the weight of their product they began ASTM to change the standard because they no longer qualified. Oops.


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## vtroofing

Again, like I said this is way out of context of the original post. We are scheduled to do a GAF roof over in the Spring. It has the original GAF shingles that were installed in 1974 and I will gladly email photos to you of the condition of the roof I just cannot upload them here.

Wonder why the owner wants to go back to GAF? Seems like a no brainer to me as well. Let me ask you this... have you seen any CertainTeed Landmarks still holding their own 38 years later? Oh yeah, no because they were not their product then.

To each their own. The doc I listed with the CT/ GAF comparison is outdated I admit- I also admit I was not up to speed with the 5 star. Now I know, know I will try to educate my customers appropriately.

Quite possibly the GAF products you guys deal with are less quality than what I am used to and you have the right to endorse whatever you wish- that is why you are your own business and I am mine. I am GAF Master Elite here in Vermont, the first and only. We us a lot of Timberlines and the consistency is great for us. We cannot say the same about other products we've used. We can also offer our customers a Factory Inspection and we like that, so do they. 

Our supplier Harvey BP has brought in GAF as a line- whereas they fly off the shelves. They are not cheaper than CT, the Deck Armor is almost twice- but the installers seem to like them. It is our choice to choose what we want to use, and GAF has made my business grow for sure.


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## dougger222

vtroofing said:


> Again, like I said this is way out of context of the original post. We are scheduled to do a GAF roof over in the Spring. It has the original GAF shingles that were installed in 1974 and I will gladly email photos to you of the condition of the roof I just cannot upload them here.
> 
> Wonder why the owner wants to go back to GAF? Seems like a no brainer to me as well. Let me ask you this... have you seen any CertainTeed Landmarks still holding their own 38 years later? Oh yeah, no because they were not their product then.
> 
> To each their own. The doc I listed with the CT/ GAF comparison is outdated I admit- I also admit I was not up to speed with the 5 star. Now I know, know I will try to educate my customers appropriately.
> 
> Quite possibly the GAF products you guys deal with are less quality than what I am used to and you have the right to endorse whatever you wish- that is why you are your own business and I am mine. I am GAF Master Elite here in Vermont, the first and only. We us a lot of Timberlines and the consistency is great for us. We cannot say the same about other products we've used. We can also offer our customers a Factory Inspection and we like that, so do they.
> 
> Our supplier Harvey BP has brought in GAF as a line- whereas they fly off the shelves. They are not cheaper than CT, the Deck Armor is almost twice- but the installers seem to like them. It is our choice to choose what we want to use, and GAF has made my business grow for sure.


If you read some of the links you will see it makes mention to some of the gaf plants producing more defective shingles than others. I know the MN plant was mentioned which is more than likely why I see so many cracked shingles in this market place. One article did say that the potential was there for all gaf plants to have made the defective product.

gaf has done a wonderful job marketing it's timberline shingle. Some homeowners tell me they want the timberline style shingle not knowing it's brand specific!

Not to defend CT or any other shingle manufacturer but have been up on some very old say 30-35 year old organic roofs that honestly don't need to be replaced. My only thought is these are the old asbestos shingles.

Of course we all know in the Midwest the problem CT had with the organic shingles!

For the record have not seen a cracked Landmark roof to date and have inspected some that go back to the mid to late 90's. Landmark was first produced in 1996.


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## apkole

dougger222 said:


> Bam, Bam,
> 
> Thanks for bringing up vt's very flawed data.
> 
> Not only did his data not show the Certainteed 5 Star coverage it also didn't show the Certainteed 3 Star coverage.
> 
> Ok, to make this easier to understand.
> 
> Certainteed offers it's standard installation and also offers,
> 3 Star Coverage
> 4 Star Coverage
> 5 Star Coverage (all flashings must be replaced)
> 
> It's my understanding that Certainteed will do random inspections with the 5 Star warranty installations.


Dougger, I've been writing 5 Star warranties, and can tell you from personal experience that the random inspections do happen. I'm one of those traditional guys who isn't buying the "lighter, high tech shingle is better" marketing mantra. I'm pretty reluctant to stake my good name on GAF's new and "improved" product as well. At 59, I'm not inclined to switch horses in mid stream. 

I believe that the Select Shinglemaster designation also requires that CT have on file a copy of our WC and liability insurance (specifically for roofing) and perhaps State license where required. It's the insurance requirement that usually limits the participants in that program.


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## dougger222

I've spoken with my local CT rep several times on getting enrolled in the Select program but have not taken the time to send in certs of my subs. The subs all have the certs but some are too lazy to take the SMA test.

Perhaps this Winter will get on them to get the ball rolling...


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## dougger222

Grumpy said:


> About 12 years ago maybe I recall Timberlines were $55 a square, $55 for the sub, and $55 for profit is how most people priced jobs.


From 2004 to mid point 06 was paying $40 a square delivered for Landmarks.


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## gr8roofer

Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum and this is my first post. I saw this thread and figured I would add my .02. Certainteed sucks! Most of the manufacture defects I see from shingle roof systems are Certainteed...50:1. In fact I just replaced 10 year old CT Horizons that were crumbling. Happily replaced then with GAF Woodlands. None of my suppliers that deal with CT like their business practices (shady mf'ers). I'm in the commercial side of the roofing business and don't deal with shingles as much as most of you do I'm sure. But I continuously see problems with CT shingles, and they rarely take responsibility for their crappy products. CT did offer to give me $300 for my roof. I just laughed. Anytime CT comes into discussion with my clients, I always steer them to more reputable manufactures.


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## dougger222

gr8roofer said:


> Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum and this is my first post. I saw this thread and figured I would add my .02. Certainteed sucks! Most of the manufacture defects I see from shingle roof systems are Certainteed...50:1. In fact I just replaced 10 year old CT Horizons that were crumbling. Happily replaced then with GAF Woodlands. None of my suppliers that deal with CT like their business practices (shady mf'ers). I'm in the commercial side of the roofing business and don't deal with shingles as much as most of you do I'm sure. But I continuously see problems with CT shingles, and they rarely take responsibility for their crappy products. CT did offer to give me $300 for my roof. I just laughed. Anytime CT comes into discussion with my clients, I always steer them to more reputable manufactures.


LOL, that's funny right there!!!

We have A LOT of defective Certainteed roofs in my area as there's a giant plant in my work area. With that said EVERY 10+ year old GAF roof I've ever been has had cracks which is also a manufacturers defect.

As far as warranty is concerned Certainteed/Saint Gobain has always performed as their warranty claimed it would. 

We just did a 40sq 10/12 garage addition with the new timberlines and they are absolute junk garbage. The roof I'm doing now has Duration Designers and they are way way better than the timberlines.


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