# School Gymnasium Roof



## pbs0630

We are in need of replacing a flat school roof on a Gymnasium. The roof would have to be stripped, soft panels replaced, etc. Since there is no value to the "look" of the roof since it won't be seen unless your in a plane...why should we leap for EPDM at nearly twice the price of sheet seamed rubber roofing. Both are offering similar warrantees for labor and materials? (Total footage is about 6000 feet) Should we consider cutting into the roof to add two exhaust fans? Or are they a disaster waiting to happen? I haven't found a compelling argument for the jump in installed price?


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## Ed the Roofer

You don't sound like a roofing contractor, so please, identify your scope in the specifications.

Also, please further explain what a sheet seamed rubber roof is, from your perception.

I believe you are comparing a true rubber roof, called EPDM, to a Modified Bitumen Roof, which many contractors mis-identify by name also.

It is NOT a rubber material roof by any means. It is a bituminous product with plasticisers added for flexibility and gets applied with a torch or hot air welding unit at the seams.

Do you happen to have copies of the scopes specified that you could post as an attachment?

Then we could answer your questions better.

Ed


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## Grumpy

In regards to Ed's post I concur fully. Post copies of the two or three scopes of work you are comparing and we can make some recomendations. Also a photograph of the roof or building structure would help too. 

Why would the fans be a disaster?


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## Grumpy

Last piece of advice: if the price is double, I don't care what the materials are, there is some majorly huge difference that youa en't picking up on. I may suggest seeking the advice of a 3rd roofer. Someone either made a major mistake or is hack, or you are comparing an apple to an organe. I can tell you that cost per square foot most materials are basically within the same ball park. 

Hire the Right Contractor -- Read that.
Frequently Asked Flat Roof Questions -- And read this too.


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## Lefty

Hi,

Sounds like they may be doing the same thing. Price is not a good way to say they are using different materials. 

Edpm is a sheet seamed roof.


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## pbs0630

*Reply to the spec*

As written spec included
1. Remove the existing roof down to the board decking and legally dispose of all materials(hazardous included), all permits and inspections included.
2. Install 5/4” pressure treated nailer boards at the perimeter and crew in place, inspect and replace any compromised roof inderlayment.
3. Install 1” R-8 value polysocyanurate insulation and mechanically attached to the deck. Fully adhere RPI .060 EPDM membrane to the new insulation and roll in place.
4. Install 3” double seam tape to laps and power roll in place.
5. Flash all roof penetrations to manufacturer specifications.
6. Provide , fabricate and install .032 aluminum edge metal and flash water tight owners color selection.
7. 40 Year RPI Membrane Warranty/15 year labor and additional material Warranty.



Ed the Roofer said:


> You don't sound like a roofing contractor, so please, identify your scope in the specifications.
> 
> Also, please further explain what a sheet seamed rubber roof is, from your perception.
> 
> I believe you are comparing a true rubber roof, called EPDM, to a Modified Bitumen Roof, which many contractors mis-identify by name also.
> 
> It is NOT a rubber material roof by any means. It is a bituminous product with plasticisers added for flexibility and gets applied with a torch or hot air welding unit at the seams.
> 
> Do you happen to have copies of the scopes specified that you could post as an attachment?
> 
> Then we could answer your questions better.
> 
> Ed


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## pbs0630

*Thanks for your help!*

As written…the quote included
1. Remove the existing roof down to the board decking and legally dispose of all materials(hazardous included)
2. Install 5/4” pressure treated nailer boards at the perimeter and screw in place. Inspect and replace any compromised underlayment.
3. Install 1” polysocyanurate insulation and mechanically attached to the deck. Fully adhere RPI 60mil EPDM membrane to the new insulation and roll in place.
4. Install 3” double seam tape to laps and power roll in place.
5. Flash all roof penetrations to manufacturer specifications.
6. Provide , fabricate and install .032 aluminum edge metal and flash water tight owners color selection.
7. 40 Year RPI Membrane Warranty/15 year labor and additional material Warranty.


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## Ed the Roofer

Are those the specs from two different bidders on the job?

It sure seems as if they copy/pasted from the same spec manual.

Both are EPDM Rubber roof membranes and describing the same scope of work.

Was there a significant price difference, or where those identical also?

What were you previously referring to when you said, "Sheet Seamed Rubber Roofing"?

Ed


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## Grumpy

Thanks for coming back to us. Can you post some photos of the roof? 



The first guys don't know how to spell. I think you posted the same spec twice. Looks like you corrected some typos the 2nd time and added a few words. 

Me thinks something smells fishy and you aren't who you claim to be. 


What are your insulation requirements in terms of R value? 1" poly iso has an R value of 6, not 8. What kind of roof and insulation is up there now? What kind of roof deck does it have. 


he doesn't say he's goign to use edge sealant on the seams witht he seam tape which is a requirement by all the manufacturers I am familiar with. 


Who is covering the labor guarantee? The roofer or manufacturer. I'd want that spelled out. 


Is the EPDM reinforced or non reinforced?


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## pbs0630

*It was late an yes I cut an pasted....*

That is the general scope....1" insulation, .060 EDPM, etc. none of the three quotes distinguish between regular or reinforced. but the rest of their bids stay the same as far as work to be completed.


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## pbs0630

*Sheet rubber comment was from a phone conversation*

with the contractor...his quote faxed over was(as all three were) EDPM...no mention of reinforced.


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## pbs0630

*Fishy???*

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. I have only represented myself as a board member at a small private school in need of a roof??? There is R-30 in the ceiling space between the ceiling and roof...the sheeting is 1/2" fiberboard. I will get pictures later today. the warranty is through RPI...40 years on the membrane and 15 on labor and materials.



Grumpy said:


> Thanks for coming back to us. Can you post some photos of the roof?
> 
> 
> 
> The first guys don't know how to spell. I think you posted the same spec twice. Looks like you corrected some typos the 2nd time and added a few words.
> 
> Me thinks something smells fishy and you aren't who you claim to be.
> 
> 
> What are your insulation requirements in terms of R value? 1" poly iso has an R value of 6, not 8. What kind of roof and insulation is up there now? What kind of roof deck does it have.
> 
> 
> he doesn't say he's goign to use edge sealant on the seams witht he seam tape which is a requirement by all the manufacturers I am familiar with.
> 
> 
> Who is covering the labor guarantee? The roofer or manufacturer. I'd want that spelled out.
> 
> 
> Is the EPDM reinforced or non reinforced?


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## Grumpy

All three contractors have the same proposal word for word you are telling me? Same insulation, same membrane, same warranty? There are NO differences in the way things were worded? 

There are always differences which may appear subtle to the untrained eye but may be major to the quality and price. It's NEVER the same. Ever. Somethign is always different. All 3 are bidding the same manufacturer of materials? That's odd right there.


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## SinglePlyGuy

40 year warranty? wow

I am assuming the decking is wood sheathing...fiberboard is rttpically the name for atype of insulation around here.

For a wood deck I would make sure that you add a gyp layer of some kind for fire rating...

Fully adhering EPDM to a 1" board is a lil iffy too....make sure they fasten the hell outta that iso or it is going to curl....

If a roofer advertises he is going to give you 1" iso with an R of 8 beware.

I would think to give a 40 yr the membrane would have to be at least .080 with 3" tape in the seams with a 7" coverstrip OVER teh finished seam... the perimeter metal would also be a pre-fab....not .032.

You should really get a few more prices....


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## Grumpy

.032 is prefab. No? 

Single ply, you know warranty's are a game. I think you are thinking NDL but I bet it's a 40 year membrane warranty, like a shingle warranty, which is primarily useless. "Our material will be free from defects for 40 years."


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## rwolfe

No EPDM comes with year warranty. is not necessarily pre-fab. Easily shop fabbed and delivered to site. The scope is fine. People who call themselves roofers get agitated when people arent sure of what they speak when discussing roofing. Every roofer thinks he knows everything there is to know. I personally would never recommend epdm for any project. TPO is white and much more durable to foot traffic and weathering than epdm. tpo is molecularly welded using hot air. therefore the seams are about% stronger than epdm. tpo is reinforced with polyester scrim as well. EPDM is a horrible product. Knowing today what we know, why would anyone put a black roof on anyways. Having said that though, epdm comes in white. More expensive though. Also, single ply guy was right about the fire barrier. You may want the roofer to provide the UL assembly he plans on referencing. Typically cafeteria's would need to be Class A roof assemblies. Let me know if you need any help with this.


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## Ed the Roofer

rwolfe said:


> No EPDM comes with year warranty. is not necessarily pre-fab. Easily shop fabbed and delivered to site. The scope is fine. *People who call themselves roofers get agitated when people arent sure of what they speak when discussing roofing. Every roofer thinks he knows everything there is to know.* I personally would never recommend epdm for any project. TPO is white and much more durable to foot traffic and weathering than epdm. tpo is molecularly welded using hot air. therefore the seams are about% stronger than epdm. tpo is reinforced with polyester scrim as well. EPDM is a horrible product. Knowing today what we know, why would anyone put a black roof on anyways. Having said that though, epdm comes in white. More expensive though. Also, single ply guy was right about the fire barrier. You may want the roofer to provide the UL assembly he plans on referencing. Typically cafeteria's would need to be Class A roof assemblies. *Let me know if you need any help with this.*


And your qualifications are.....?

It's just too bad that some people think that they know everything there is to know. (Hmmmm?.....Where have I heard that before?)

Have you looked in a mirror lately, barging in here with a grand total of one post and expect to be declared the resident expert, whos opinion we dare not find objection with?

Now, show off some knowledge that you purport to have, instead of just being an arrogant "RooferPhobic" Megalomaniac as you sound from your Grand Self Inspired Introduction.

Ed


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## Ed the Roofer

By the way, from viewing your profile information, I have a question for you.....


LI class=profilefield_category

About rwolfe 

What is your Roofing related field/trade: 

Cheif Estimator 



*What is a "Cheif" Estimator?*



Forget it. I looked it up and NOW I UNDERSTAND.....:whistling:



*From the Urban Dictionary:*

*1.* cheif 
*to smoke or inhale a drug* more than likly marajuana 
i be chiefin that good ish 

*2.* cheif 
*a mug or fool, a weak person.* used primarily in west and northwest london 
shut up you cheif 

*3.* cheif 
*Misspelling of the word Chief - mistake typically made by idiots who read at the 3rd grade level*
retard on IM - "Hey cheif" 
retard's friend - "Hey guy, did you mean chief? idiot" 


I am glad to have had the opportunity to understand you better. I leave "Special" People alone.



Well, that was a complete waste of my time, but it sure felt good.

How about tomorrow, we wipe the slate clean and start all over again?

Ed


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## SinglePlyGuy

You are right Grumpy..i was thinking NDL.

And Ed, easy big fella lol.

*3.* cheif 
*Misspelling of the word Chief - mistake typically made by idiots who read at the 3rd grade level*
retard on IM - "Hey cheif" 
retard's friend - "Hey guy, did you mean chief? idiot" 


That made me almost piss myself.


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## Ed the Roofer

SinglePlyGuy said:


> And Ed, easy big fella lol.
> 
> *3.* cheif
> *Misspelling of the word Chief - mistake typically made by idiots who read at the 3rd grade level*
> retard on IM - "Hey cheif"
> retard's friend - "Hey guy, did you mean chief? idiot"
> 
> 
> That made me almost piss myself.


:laughing:

Those are not my words, but straight from the Urban Dictionary.

They know definitions MUCH better than I do.....:whistling:

Ed


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## rwolfe

Thanks for proving my point ed. Like shooting fish from a barrel. 

In terms of my qualifications, I've been roofing since 1991 as I started my illustrious commercial roofing career as a laborer. Worked my way through the ranks and here I am. 17 years later. 

The first roof I've ever stepped on was an ballasted EPDM roof system. Even then as a greenhorn, I knew that EPDM could not be a viable solution for a roof system. I would never recommend installing a EPDM on a roof that I was responsible for.  There are too many systems that compare quite evenly with the pricing point but can be relied upon to perform for the majority of the warranty. Especially if proper preventative maintenance is performed.

Lastly, I do consider myself an expert in terms of commercial roofing systems and practices. I would enjoy any debate. Having said that, I do not consider myself the "resident" expert as there are guys who have roofing intelligence and have been here a lot longer than me. Would enjoy helping form a educated opinion about roofing issues wherever I can. 

Thanks for your attention. Ed the roofer.


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## rwolfe

*I forgot to ask.*

Does ed disagree with what I said in my earlier post.


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## Ed the Roofer

Ed the Roofer said:


> How about tomorrow, we wipe the slate clean and start all over again?
> 
> Ed


Welcome to the forum rwolfe.

Ed


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## rwolfe

Thank you.


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## BornaRoofer

I completely disagree with rwolfe. I have been in the roofing industry for over 23 years (ouch) and I to started as a helper through journeyman/foreman. Then I worked for an engineering firm for 5 years as a consultant and now am a tech rep for a major manufacture who manufactures everthing commercial except coal tar.
I have put on epdm systems in the 80's with glued seams and 1x4 terminations that are still servicing the buildings just fine. (with maintinance of course)
With the introduction of tapes and peremiter strips epdm is 10 fold better than it was back then. 
Ive said it many times before and im sure ill have to say it many times in the future that id put a properly installed epdm agianst any material out there barring coal tar. Its nothing now to get 20+ years out of a standard epdm and if 90 mil and a few other things are done 30+ is very probable.
White roofing is a joke in "most parts" of the country more like a fad in my opinion. It may reduce the heat island effect but thats about it.
And how are you so sure tpo is the next coming? Do you know when the last chemical changes were made to the sheets by the manufactures and how long those have been on roofs? I dont think you do. Im not saying tpo is bad just that anyone that says its the best is silly.
I mean come on rwolfe you obviosly dont even realize when your being ripped a new a hole much less what a good roof is.
So in case you were'nt sure I dont agree with you.


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## Grumpy

TPO is a fine roof as best I can tell. In a world of disposable roofs where mod bit is king and lasts only 10 years, TPO is an upgrade IMO. I've been doing mod bit longer than tpo but so far I am convinced tpo is better. By no means am I saying it's the best I'm told PVC is even better, but from my POV I prefer tpo hands down. 


Don't get me wrong, I am not saying mod bit should last only 10 years. I am saying when the hacks I compoete against and repair their work a few years after they put it down, I have alot of experience replacing 10 year old roofs that were done as cheaply as possible.


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## rwolfe

Who said TPO is the best. Not me. Your right though. With all of the formula changes in the TPO's who's to say if it will last. I'll tell you that i've installed plenty of GAF TPO as far back as 8 years and it is still beautiful. I've also installed a bunch of EPDM systems. This is the only system that i know of that cure's thinner than what it was when it was originally installed. Becomes thin and brittle. This isn't good, is it? UV tears that sheet up. I'll watch my mouth because you may live somewhere where the sun doesn't shine.
Maintenance and dilligence is the key to any roof system lasting for any length of time. I agree that PVC is much a better product than TPO. Especially considering the longevity of the original formulas and it's record against chemicals. By the way, 90 mil EPDM? Who said anything about 90 mils? Mil for mil, the puncture resistence and seam strength of a PVC (and TPO for that matter) blows EPDM out of the water. EPDM shouldn't even be in the same conversation when it comes to versatility and strength. There's a reason why EPDM doesn't get installed in Florida, being it rains here and all. People here enjoy it when the rain stays outside. In addition these sheets are reflective versus EPDM. One other thing Born. White roofing is not a fad. You may want to do some reading on the subject. You know, LEED, Energy Star, Cool Roof Counsil etc.. Read up on it. Solar's growing too.
Lastly, I'm not saying I'm the biggest fan of TPO's. I happen to prefer fibertite over any other single ply product manufactured today. But to sit here and listen to someone try to convince anyone else that EPDM is a viable product, well that is completely unacceptable. Oh yeah, one more thing, the EPDM button ballast system was a great idea. I really enjoy it when the base flashing pull so far off the wall that it forms a ramp from the roof deck to the top of the parapet. Great product.

r
I do agree that coal tar is very good. If you don't mind carcinogens. It's not the best though. Hot rubber is the best. Since we're getting all technical and all.


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## BornaRoofer

You know I typed a whole rant for you about how every point you make is retarded and tried to explain and teach you some things about roofing in the rest of the world besides your little easybake oven corner but then I realized you just wont understand.
If you can, take your own advice and read up on leeds,seam strengths, puncture resistance,reflectivity,emistivity and what roofing membrane sells more than all the rest put togeather.
Just because you can say all these big words it doesnt mean you understand them. Be sure you know what you talking about before you speak because you look silly to people who do.


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## OUTLAW

:tt2:My hammers bigger than your hammer:tt2:


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## rwolfe

I'm trying to see your point of view, but I can't stick my head that far up my a%$. 
- EPDM isn't even on the radar for most purchased roofing products. Asphalt systems are #1 and TPO is #2. 
- I didn't mean to confuse you with those "long words". Who knew TPO and PVC would throw the roof consultant for a loop.
If you can, take your own advice and read up on leeds,seam strengths, puncture resistance,reflectivity,emistivity and what roofing membrane sells more than all the rest put togeather.
This is the last time i'll tell you roof consultant. *Read*. Eveything you wrote there is incorrect if your comparing EPDM against other roofing. Even the word leeds is incorrect. It's only "leed". You could have saved yourself 10 minutes looking for the "s" on the key board.
I joined this board with the hopes of being able to help people and also to have a resourse to pull information from. Having said that, clearly you don't fill any of those voids for me, he who appears to be confessing that the taped EPDM seam is stronger than the molecularly bonded Tpo seam. Right.

thanks for your invaluable input.

I'm not saying that EPDM doesn't have a place. Just not on a roof.


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## BornaRoofer

Where do you get your info the fibertight website? Epdm has the highest market share of all flat roofing products in the nation and has for many years with tpo a distant second. Asphalt is at the bottom buddy. Thats right the toilet, it cant even come close to epdm sales. Unless of course your including shingles and with you who knows.
Like I said before your stuck in a Florida state of mind. Its a big world and most of it is covered with premium epdm roofing that's working just fine.
Every system has its place and maybe in your hot box spray polyurethane or tpo is the best and not epdm but thats doesnt negate the *facts*. Your personal opinions dont mean anything and thats all your spewing.
And if you read my first post you would know Im not a consultant Im a journyman roofer first then consultant and now for ten years a manufactures rep. And by the way we manufacture all roofing systems not just epdm or pvc since it appears I need to repeat myself. Plenty of real world all over the world experince. 
And leed is a joke with or without an S on it. It a bullshit money making scam run by private corporation not the goverment. A roof only gets you one leed point vs a bike rack or a electrical socket wich also gets you one point. Lets see a million $ roof or $50 bike rack?
That doesnt mean green roofing is bad its great but leed is bs.
Once agian ill repeat myself. Do some reading in some real roofing journals or maybe ask someone that knows a little bit about roofing in the rest of the country before you make statments that are completely off base.
You look dumber by the post.


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## OUTLAW

:hammer:my roof is better than your roof:hammer:


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## OUTLAW

Fighting on the internet is like racing in the special olympics.

Even if you win.........your still a retard :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :yes:


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## rwolfe

I've already wasted too much time with you. But you said your a Manufacturer's Rep. Your a liar. Most manufacturer's train there people. You've clearly recieved no training. 

_Breakdown of the market by material type (percentage):
BUR 28.2
APP Modified 15.1
SBS Modified 14.2
EPDM 8.6
PVC 5.9
TPO 9.1
Fiberglass shingles 2.8
Metal/architectural 4.1
Liquid applied 3.1
Polyurethane Foam 2.4
Metal/structural 2.7
Self-adhered mod 1.9
Other 0.9
CSPE 0.8
Concrete tile 0.2
The article also gives dollar amounts.
(Source: Western Roofing, Insulation, and Siding.)_

Admittedly this report is from 2004. But I can't imagine EPDM gained in popularity in the last 4 1/2 years anywhere in the United States other than your head. Smart money does not buy epdm. 

Calling people stupid was the high point of your nonsensicle post. You really should perform some due dilligane before showing your ass roof constultant. I am slightly embarrassed for you. Especially considering that you compared the LEED program to a bike rack. Wow. That was really weak. I'm not going to educate you here but if 20% of the materials are manufacturered within 500 miles of a project, the project automatically qualifies for 2 points. That is really embarrasing. 

Look, I know you won't take my advice, but if you don't like to read, take a class. This industry is moving very quickly and your wasting time stepping on your dick. People like yourself give a bad name to an industry that I've made my career. 
I couldn't imagine your employer lets you talk to buyers. 

I'm done with you.

I was thinking while typing that I would be interested to know who you work for. But then it occurred to me, It doesn't really matter.

Outlaw, nice retard joke. That made more sense than the roof consultants rant.

Though I'd rather be the winning retard than the retard that didn't even cross the line.

Thanx for asking

rw


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## BornaRoofer

Here check it out for your self or is Nrca not good enough or are you not a member?

For _low_-_slope roofing_ work, the survey results show EPDM as the _market_ leader for new construction and reroofing, garnering about a 32 percent share of the *...*
www.professional*roofing*.net/article.aspx?id=623 - 39k 

Your out dated breakdown from the "western states" isn't representative of the whole nation or world which is my point. 
Call any major manufacture of commercial roofing and ask anyone there what membrane/system sells the most square feet per year. And not just in the south or west. The answer will be epdm every time with tpo #2.
For the majority of the country Epdm rules and for good reason. It works and has for over 40 years now.

And so what about about materials from within 500 miles? Thats for drywall to toilets and everything else in the building envelope. I thought we were talking about roofing? My point stands.

Unfortunatly I have spent the last 10 years dealing with self proclaimed "professional roofers" just like you. They know everything there is to know about roofing and are never wrong but couldnt pass a warranty inspection if there life depended on it.


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## Ed the Roofer

Hey guys. Keep it a bit more civil and try to eliminate the name calling, otherwise this wonderful debate will have to be closed down.

Back up any comments with reliable sources and cite their link for validation.

Thanks.

Ed


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## rwolfe

Sorry ed. You're right. I shouldn't have called this guy a liar even if I think he is.

Bora, you're starting to wear on me. I'm starting to not care. I'll try one last time.

You directed me to an article from the NRCA who's title is 
*NRCA's latest market survey shows 2004 was a solid year for roofing contractors*

2004? You called mine out dated. Western put that together using Manufacturing data from the relevant year. The manufacturer's Represented 11 billion dollars in sales. Your article states:

NRCA then mailed the survey questionnaire to the same group of contractors and received a total of 199 responses for a response rate of 10 percent. However, NRCA's market survey is not a statistically valid analysis of the roofing market; it is intended only to provide feedback from contractors about annual trends in sales volume, squares and the types of roof systems installed. 

Apparently you did not see that part. 

Because you are starting to get under my skin and I really believe you you feel strongly about what you think are the facts, here some reading. This references a report performed by SPRI: 


http://books.google.com/books?id=TDMgtNXfFmUC&pg=PA93&dq=spri+roofing+market+share

Here's SPRI's link in case you don't know who they are. www.spri.org

There's more but I'm getting bored with you. I may post more on monday. I'm waiting for a report from GAF which indicates 2008 market share. I don't personally own the report because it is an industry analysis conducted by independant firm and it costs around $3,500. I'll have a copy of it though. Hopefully this arguement can begin to end. By the way, GAF is the worlds larges roofing Manfuacturer.

One more piece consultant. Internationally EPDM isn't on the radar. And because i've attempted this post three times now, i'm not going to give the link cause i can't immediatley find it. If you're silly enough to continue to argue your point, i'll find it for you.

LEED is BS huh? Kinda weird hearing that from a roof consultant. I don't think you get it. Here a link to educate you on building envelops. Roofing is only one side of LEED program. Of course you know that already.

http://www.fpl.com/business/savings/building_envelope.shtml

I'm tired. Going to take a shower.


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## Ed the Roofer

rwolfe,

I'm glad to see that you can roll with the first punch that I threw on this board. That shows me something about your character, by not continuing with a sniping back circus of volley shots.

So, which information is to be believed?

199 responses does not seem to be a proper sampling for an accurate figure.

I had assumed all along, especially with the size of some large facilities using epdm rubber membrane roofs and with the larger contractors all pretty much being one sided with epdm, or so I thought, that epdm was way out in front of the other single ply membranes.

So, what is the correct percentages?

Although I am not an advocate of epdm, I do believe that a fully adhered epdm is one of the better products available for duration and ease of future repairs.

Ed


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## rwolfe

Although I would never make an arguement for mechanically attached or ballasted assemblies, I will not disagree that fully adhered scrim reinforced EPDM can be a viable assembly. In fact, if you ammoratized the cost of the average FA epdm assembly, it *MAY* begin to make more economic sense than most other assemblies. Having said that, it is absolutely imperative that preventative maintenance is performed only by a quality contractor that knows the Intracacies and probable failure points of the assembly. It seems this statement would be the case with any roof system that is installed. But with EPDM and the other single ply's, I believe it's the quality contractor piece is more critical. 

But TPO has the same or less installed cost as EPDM. An although EPDM has recently been re-invented to include UV blockers, it still absorbs a tremendous amount of heat. White thermoplastic does not. The rigidity of the TPO sheet combined with the reflective properties and the strong molecularly welded seams help me believe that this product is suberior over rubber. The formulation of TPO has gone through it's ups and downs over the last 20 years, but whose hasn't. (with the exception of coal tar) I won't expound on the seam issues of EPDM over the years.

I don't want to come across as someone who absolutely believes rubber is garbage. In fact, I'm sure there is no other system that withstands the effects of hail better than this product. And considering that some of the EPDM sheets have factory installed butyl at the seams, one could make an arguement that some of the workmanship prone errors are being corrected by the Manufacturer's. But there are other assemblies out there that make more sense for most cases. Rubber has been the commercial industry leader for a lot of years. But it is simply because of it's installed cost. That's it. Everyone would probably much rather have standing seam or tile on their roof at home. But at the end of the day, they buy shingles. TPO is here to take that cost effective category under control and add a little flare in the process. I'm not willing to look past that fact. I'm also not willing to stand by and be insulted while having opinions being passed as scientific evidence. This is simply unacceptable.

Regarding percentages, I will post the numbers when I recieve them. I spoke with a suit at GAF. He indicated that he has a commercial market analysis for 2008 conducted jointly by ARMA and SPRI that shows the national leader is Thermoplastic Polyolefin. Apparently TPO has gained 15 percent per year more market share per year for the last 6 years. He said he would convert it from read-only to pdf and send to me. This, I have to think, will be more reliable than a 200 company survey.

Last night I found a report that indicated the International Market Share is still held by SBS and APP by a long shot. When I find it again I will link it. What I thought was most interesting is EPDM was at the bottom.


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## SinglePlyGuy

Wow I shoulda kept up with this thread.

My opinion on EPDM (based on over 20 years exp in commercial roofing) is that its lifecycle cost exceeds pretty much any other product.

Now do not get me wrong- the EPDM sheet in itself is pretty good...IF you didnt have to seam it. The seams have always been and will always be maintenance items. We have talked about this somewhere before....

Market share is only an indicator of sales- not of quality.

EPDM has always been popular because 1. Price 2. Ease of installation.

The investment is minimal (no fancy tools, equipment) and its almost idiot proof ( i did say ALMOST)

TPO is the new commodity in town and is white - which is an important quality whether you want to believe it or not. And its cheap...period.

In the single ply world I will still stand by PVC....it is the KING.


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## rwolfe

I strongly agree with everything you said, except the fool proof part. The seam preparation and placement of term bar for mechanically attached systems are far from fool proof.

rw


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## BornaRoofer

Nice how you are flip flopping now that it seems some other roofers appear to like epdm as crazy as it sounds.

National not International.

Gaf may be the largest overall but were not discussing shingles. They definitely are not the largest commercial membrane manufacture.

Leed has its place to bringing awareness to building owners and builders on the green movement but there system is skewed and when it comes to costs and returns for the roof their system makes no sense that's all im saying.

Look I know many roofers that are 60+ years old and they would come to blows over the opinion that a 4 ply asphalt is the best roof on the planet. The same gos for Mod bit or singleplys. Everybody has an opinion and thats their right.
Slate roofs last for generations but asphalt shingles rule the roost.
Copper can last decades but there's a lot more steel out there.
Which is the ultimate singleply membrane? I dont know and I dont think anyone does. Theres so many variables like location, traffic, debris accumulation(grease,paint,leaves, ect) contractor quality and on and on.

And as you know my favorite is Adhered 60 mil Epdm and is the choice of most commercial building owners in the Midwest at least and tpo will soon be the new champ if not already.
And this opinion is based on the millions and millions of square feet of roofing I have done final inspections on the last 10 years from Michigan to Florida. 
And im waiting to see your $3500 percentages.


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## rwolfe

I agreed with singleplyguys post because it made sense. I would have liked to argue the lifecycle cost statement, but TPO has not been around for 45 years like EPDM. So that wouldn't have been smart on my part. Maybe in about 10 more years I would like to have that statement thrown around again because I'm not sure it's correct. Especially considering the published energy savings being thrown into the mix of the lifecycle cost analysis. From a maintenance cost stand point, I'm thinking I would charge a little more on EPDM strictly because I have to inspect all of the seams, in addition to the typical maintenance items. 

Having said that, I'm not flip flopping. That's not what I do. I was agreeing with a statement that I couldn't argue. 

My previous posts where in response to yours.

*"White roofing is a joke in "most parts" of the country more like a fad in my opinion. It may reduce the heat island effect but thats about it.
And how are you so sure tpo is the next coming? Do you know when the last chemical changes were made to the sheets by the manufactures and how long those have been on roofs? I dont think you do. Im not saying tpo is bad just that anyone that says its the best is silly.
I mean come on rwolfe you obviosly dont even realize when your being ripped a new a hole much less what a good roof is.
So in case you were'nt sure I dont agree with you."* 

That, in my opinion, was over aggressive as a response to what I was saying previously. Not only that, your subsequent remarks were embarrasingly similar in tone. Therefore I concluded that I needed to defend my position. I certainly never said TPO was the best single ply (although I'll go on record to say that Fibertite is). And to make a comment like "white roofing is a fad"...? That just didn't make a lot of sense.

My thoughts are:
Dollar for dollar, the installed cost of TPO is no higher that EPDM. Therefore, why install EPDM? That was my point. 
Why not install it? Chemical characteristics not perfected. Sure that was a valid arguement 12 years ago. It's not now. I do know though, that manufacturer's are constently changing the formulations in attempt to bring production costs down. Actually, I would really like to hear a valid reason for not recommending TPO over EPDM. A factual based arguement though. That is a topic for a different post.
 

The fact is, if EPDM is installed correctly, it may have it's place. But with TPO's ever growing existence in the market, EPDM will begin to be shown the door. This isn't my opinion. How many EPDM producing machines are there in the U.S. 4? 6? How many new plants are there? Wait, I know the answer to that one. None. How many new TPO plants are there. I know Carlisle has a new one. Mansville has a new one. Firestone is producing their own now. GAF bought two (or three, can't remember) new machines. JP Stevens, who knows what their doing. Not sure I care. Their the ones who gave tpo a bad name anyways. Look, all I'm saying is that the writing is on the wall. 

The architects who have been specifying EPDM over the years typcially did this because of the cost comparisons to other warranted roof systems. It's not typcially because they thought it was the best. In fact, when replacing an existing epdm roof, it's typical to here from the owner that they want anything but what they have. Or, it's been a nightmare since day one. Now that's not the membranes fault. But it is reality. 

When the numbers are sent to me, they will be posted. I'm certainly dissapointed in GAF's marketing departement. The people I'm working with on this are surprised at their MD's slow responses.

Thanks for the professional banter

rw


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## SinglePlyGuy

rwolfe said:


> I strongly agree with everything you said, except the fool proof part. The seam preparation and placement of term bar for mechanically attached systems are far from fool proof.
> 
> rw


Let me expand on my statement by saying that as compared to other single plies, or other roof systems, the seaming on EPDM requires the least skill. Fool proof may have been a bit too much. 

This is not a jab at EPDM installers, just my opinion based on my experience. 

I can have laborers doing EPDM seams in a few hours...and doing them properly mind you. Peel and stick accesories.....piece of cake. Flashing curbs.... pretty easy. Field wrapping pipes, etc? nah not in a few hours.

Heat welded systems, however, require a stronger skill set and a more detail-oriented installer. 

Not sure about the "placement of term bar" comment tho....


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## SinglePlyGuy

_*Maybe in about 10 more years I would like to have that statement thrown around again because I'm not sure it's correct. Especially considering the published energy savings being thrown into the mix of the lifecycle cost analysis.*_

I am curious as to this part of your post....the energy savings portion and its correlation to life cycle cost.


*Why not install it? Chemical characteristics not perfected. Sure that was a valid arguement 12 years ago. It's not now.*

Unfortunately it still is a valid argument. I am not at liberty to get into specifics at this time, but I can assure you that more than 1 of the top producers of TPO is having major issues today with membrane prodcued not even 5 years ago. I have samples in my office that I personally cut from roofs in the tri-state area.


*JP Stevens, who knows what their doing. Not sure I care. Their the ones who gave tpo a bad name anyways.* 

They were acquired by Dow and I agree that their first (and 2nd and 3rd...) generations of TPOs were really bad. But they were not alone....GAF also made some HORRIBLE product ...and some may argue that they still are.


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## rwolfe

funny, the seams where the part that I thought was not "fool proof". It's been my experience that guys needed to pay very close attention to the amount and coverage of the primer. I always liked to see a solid line of primer left on the bottom sheet to make sure the primer on the edge of the top sheet was adequate. Not only that, but laying the tape and rolling it in has always been difficult to master for my guys as well. Maybe non union labor is different than labor union. I don't know.


The placement of the batten bar in the seams is extremely important in terms of uplift. The bar is usually placed in the center of the 5" lap (on mechanically attached systems obviously) and the 5" tape is placed. This will allow the tape to extend equally on both sides of the bar, but more importantly, 2" behind the bar. This allows for greater uplifts at the fasteners. Similar to double welds on thermoplastics. 

Again, maybe it's just me. But I've never had any luck throwing laborers on this detail.

With EPDM roofs, insulation laying and attachement in my opinion requires the least skill. I've always made sure I had my best mechanics working with my best laborers on placing and attaching bar along with finishing the seam assembly. The fastening, priming and placement of the tape is not only critical for asthetics and passing inspections, but for long term performance as well. I don't put laborers on this detail unless working with good mechanics.
With Thermoplastics on the otherhand, I've had success by setting the leister's speed and heat myself then putting a laborer on the leister for welding seams. Before the end of the day, I'd throw another laborer on a probe to check the work. Which is what should be done anyway. After a couple days of this, most laborers are able to set the robot and run the robot with very little input.
I guess my thoughts regarding seaming proceedures are exactly the opposite of yours. But that's fun.

In terms of life cycle cost and energy efficient roof systems. Not sure where the confusion lies. Life cycle cost is the amortized annual cost of a product, including capital costs, installation costs, operating costs, maintenance costs, and disposal costs of a particular assembly. So if comparing black roof vs white roof over the same amount of time, cost analysis must consider any savings or expenditures consistent with the specific roof system. I'm seeing where power companies are claiming that installing a reflective roof system can reduce load capacity of cooling system up to 20%. Large commercial retailers such as Home Depot, Best Buy, Walmart and too many more to name are realizing this statistic and are installing white roofs all over the United States. 

Finally regarding formulations. I'm in no position to dispute your claim. But I was installing TPO when Carlisle and JP had their big issues in the 90's. Since then, I've not heard of any collossal issues. But then again, I haven't installed JP or Carlisle for a while. Heck, a couple years ago, JM was having granule loss issues. A couple years later they were batching banana rolls. So everyone has their production problems every now and again. I remember when factory EPDM seams were failing all over the country. It happens.

rw


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## rwolfe

Wow, I have the report and can't load it because of size restrictions. 

How can I do this. It's 507 kb's and I can't get it any smaller.

I will tell you that TPO is taking over.:whistling:


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## Ed the Roofer

Either host the photo on a photo sharing site, like PhotoBucket.com and many others and then provide the forum link to the photo.

or

Resize the photo on your computer.

Easiest way is to use MS Paint and you open that by Right Clicking on the photo and Click Edit.

Now you are in MS Paint with the full sized photo.

Go up to the top tool bar and find Stretch/Skew.

Decrease the percentage in the drop boxes and do a Save As.

Then, you have a smaller image.

Also, Save It as a JPEG instead of any of the other formats. It takes up less real estate.

Ed


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## Grumpy

If it's a report, and not a photograph consider convering it into a pdf which will take up much less space than a photo document.


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## rwolfe

Here's the stats. I promised I would not say where I got this and I asked my guy to take out anything that could point back to his company. Atleast I hope so. I think C/I means commercial industrial. This is an industry recognized statistic that someone paid good money for. It's kind of rediculous that Manufacturer's can't talk more openly about it.

rw


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## rwolfe

BTW, Pretty impressed Ed.:thumbup:

Grump, it was a pdf. converted from power point. Have a nice holiday weekend gents


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## BornaRoofer

Wow Epdm is way more popular than any asphalt systems and Pvc at the bottom. Unless now im color blind to.
I think I should get an apology. All the liar/consultant insults and my company should fire me and it turns out what? I was right? 
At least you had the balls to put it up like you said you would.


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## Grumpy

I could be reading it wrong and maybe I am because it's kinda small. It looks to me like BUR is losing market share, epdm &modified are pretty much holding and TPO is taking off. 

This sounds about accurate with all the studies I have ever read or heard in conversation. The one thing you have to understand is the source of the study. Were manufacturers surveyed, roofers, etc... And of coarse things vary by region based on codes and climatic conditions.


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## rwolfe

I love it when you pipe up Consultant. But now I'm starting to think someones either messing with me, or your just not really getting it. Your funny though:laughing:

O.K. You got me. The stat's I looked at earlier this year included shingles in the asphalt market I'm sure. Because the numbers I saw were almost identical to the chart. 

But way to try to save face. Cause the tone of my earlier remarks were absolutely accurate. Because shingles are number 1. Oh. and tpo is#2. But this report is addressing the total Commercial and industrial markets. And guess what,,,,,,,, TPO,,,,,,,,,.where's it at consultant? I know you can see it. 

Homework for you roof consultant. Print this entire blog and review it very carefully. Pick out one comment you may have been right about. In fact, explain to me how you're not at least slightly embarrassed, or atleast admit that your not even in the roofing industry. I'll take either one.

One statement you've said that was accurate. That's all. Just One. 

Let me see here:shifty:
LEED points? no
EPDM outselling TPO? no
TPO distant second? no
I said it's TPO was the best? no
I have an easy bake oven? Maybe, but that doesn't count. 

I like your fight though. And although I slightly regret coming out and calling you a liar, I still don't believe your a Man. Rep. If you are, that's kinda funny. No offense.

Grump, this is supposed to be market analysis by an industry recognized independant research firm. This report apparently was part of a larger Power Point Presentation. The person who sent this to me indicated it's completely valid. I've also been asked to not indicate who it came from. And I must comply with that request. This is not arma, or nrca or spri. I can tell you that. I've seen theirs too and it looks nothing like this.

Back to Roof Consultant (or Ed the roofer) (i think ed's messing with me) (If you are ed, that's funny)(Kidding ed, I know this guys serious) Check out this article from reuters from mid year 08 

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS168876+05-Aug-2008+MW20080805

In there it states: 
"In 2007, bituminous roofing was the most widely used roofing material in
the global market. This status stems from the popularity of bituminous
shingles in the US and Canada, and the widespread use of low-slope
bituminous roofing materials in China and Western Europe. Going forward,
the fastest growing markets for bituminous roofing are expected to be the
nonresidential construction markets of Asia and Eastern Europe.

Plastic, elastomeric roofing to be fastest growing overall

Plastic and elastomeric roofing materials are projected to post the
fastest gains through 2012, each from a relatively small base. Plastic
roofing (e.g., thermoplastic polyolefin, PVC, spray polyurethane foam)
will see its greatest gains the US market, where it is expected to
supplant built-up roofing. Demand for elastomeric roofing (e.g., ethylene
propylene diene monomer and chlorosulfonated polyethylene) will be driven
by gains in the Chinese and other Asian markets."


Slightly more impressive than the combined contractor purchases of a couple million dollars nrca survey thing from 2006 eh (remember, the you sent the link for and got snippy)? You silly goose.

I recommend you do your roof consulting on the DIY site. It'll be easier there for you.


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## rwolfe

Florida Market. Because I know you guys probably know I'm from Florida. Hey, wait. Look.

Roof consultant! Do you see what I see?

TPO not doing so well in Florida! lol


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## Ed the Roofer

I only post under one User Name or my real name on some forums. Not me.

Ed


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## Ed the Roofer

Wow, I wasted my 500th post on that? :thumbdown:

Ed


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## BornaRoofer

- EPDM isn't even on the radar for most purchased roofing products. Asphalt systems are #1 and TPO is #2

This is your quote that started this debate about the most popular com/ind roofing material. I guess when we are talking commercial roofing products I didn't realize you would interject shingles into the mix.
Either way you were wrong. Epdm has been king in commercial/ind roofing for years until recently when tpo gained market share and your beloved pvc is at the bottom of the barrel where I think it should be.
And once again your wrong on all your points:

Leed- Yes roofing is one point on their scale like I said and you cant dispute it. Whats your point?

I didn't say epdm "is" outselling tpo. I said it blows asphalt out of the water and has been the most sold product for years. But like I said who was to know you would be talking about shingles in a com/ind discussion.

I don't care what you said was the best the point is you said epdm sucks and your wrong. If it sucked so bad why would it be so popular with roofers and owners all over the country for years.

And I don't care about Florida's market. I have been trying to get you to understand that im talking about the nation not Florida.

You keep coming back to shingles to prove some point and its silly.Of course shingles bump asphalt #s up. Were not talking shingles or residential in this conversation.

You can diss me all you want it doesn't bother me. I am a respected professional in the industry and could bury you in any real roofing discussion/debate. As I have here. And could probably still out roof you seven days to Sunday.Your circle talking bs isn't fooling anyone but yourself.
Why don't you go back and read this whole blog as you say and see that no one here has agreed with you once in fact the opposite is true it started out with you getting a new hole ripped by the mod and not even realizing it to you flip flopping about the quality of epdm roofing. Same now as then you have your head in the sand bro.


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## rwolfe

BornaRoofer said:


> - EPDM isn't even on the radar for most purchased roofing products. Asphalt systems are #1 and TPO is #2
> 
> This is your quote that started this debate about the most popular com/ind roofing material. I guess when we are talking commercial roofing products I didn't realize you would interject shingles into the mix.
> Either way you were wrong. Epdm has been king in commercial/ind roofing for years until recently when tpo gained market share and your beloved pvc is at the bottom of the barrel where I think it should be.
> And once again your wrong on all your points: Your right, the reports I looked at included shingles. Then I put some more stats in front of you to back my point. You think pvc should be at the bottom of the list? Why? nevermind it really doesn't matter.
> 
> Leed- Yes roofing is one point on their scale like I said and you cant dispute it. Whats your point? No you're right, white roofing means absolutely nothing at at all.
> 
> I didn't say epdm "is" outselling tpo. I said it blows asphalt out of the water and has been the most sold product for years. But like I said who was to know you would be talking about shingles in a com/ind discussion. Actually what your said was: 6-02-2009 "Epdm has the highest market share of all flat roofing products in the nation and has for many years with tpo a distant second. Asphalt is at the bottom buddy"
> 
> 
> I don't care what you said was the best the point is you said epdm sucks and your wrong. If it sucked so bad why would it be so popular with roofers and owners all over the country for years. Because it's cheap.
> 
> And I don't care about Florida's market. I have been trying to get you to understand that im talking about the nation not Florida. Luckily I put national stats and international stats within my last post. Have another look if you're confused.
> 
> You keep coming back to shingles to prove some point and its silly.Of course shingles bump asphalt #s up. Were not talking shingles or residential in this conversation. You're right about this.
> 
> You can diss me all you want it doesn't bother me. I see that I am a respected professional in the industry and could bury you in any real roofing discussion/debate. First of all I doubt that and secondly, you may want to start now with the winning discussion or debate thing As I have here. And could probably still out roof you seven days to Sunday.Your circle talking bs isn't fooling anyone but yourself. I'm certain this isn't true. But anything that'll keep you from kicking the dog, I'll go along with.
> Why don't you go back and read this whole blog as you say and see that no one here has agreed with you once in fact the opposite is true it started out with you getting a new hole ripped by the mod and not even realizing it to you flip flopping about the quality of epdm roofing nobody flip flopped, EPDM still sucks. Same now as then you have your head in the sand bro. Head in the sand? then you'd be able to spew unabated? I don't think so, and Don't call me bro


 DIY, give it a try. They'll thank you for contributing to their forum. With all of you roofing knowledge. .


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## rwolfe

Ed that was post 503. And I was kidding any ways.

Roof consultant, this will be my last wasted 5 minutes with you. 

First of all, i never flip flopped. I merely agreed with the statement that SinglePlyGuy made 

"Now do not get me wrong- the EPDM sheet in itself is pretty good...IF you didnt have to seam it. The seams have always been and will always be maintenance items. We have talked about this somewhere before....
Market share is only an indicator of sales- not of quality.
EPDM has always been popular because 1. Price 2. Ease of installation.
The investment is minimal (no fancy tools, equipment) and its almost idiot proof ( i did say ALMOST)
TPO is the new commodity in town and is white - which is an important quality whether you want to believe it or not. And its cheap...period.
In the single ply world I will still stand by PVC....it is the KING.

And I agreed. Not flopped. Read it again if you need to consultant. There was some discussion you probably won't find very interesting about seam assemblies in there.

I agree that I may have unintentionally thrown shingles into the mix. And I made sure my later sentiments indicated that. And I'm fairly certain that I haven't kept pushing that point like you seem to be harping on. Nice reach though. 

Thinking that maybe I was misunderstanding what was being talked about, I dropped back and read the thread again. Here's What I came up with.

5-27-09 You said "Ive said it many times before and im sure ill have to say it many times in the future that id put a properly installed epdm agianst any material out there barring coal tar
I mean come on rwolfe you obviosly dont even realize when your being ripped a new a hole much less what a good roof is.
So in case you were'nt sure I dont agree with you"

This by the way is what officially started the debate. Unfortunately the name calling started here as well.


Then on 6-01-2009 You said "You know I typed a whole rant for you about how every point you make is retarded and tried to explain and teach you some things about roofing in the rest of the world besides your little easybake oven corner but then I realized you just wont understand"
This is when you started throwing out really bad stats, like you were talking to your kids. Also note that you began to talk about the rest of the world besides my easybake oven, which I believe you where talking about Florida. This is why I put the article from Reuters in my earlier post. Did you read it?
Then on 6-02-2009 you said "Epdm has the highest market share of all flat roofing products in the nation and has for many years with tpo a distant second. Asphalt is at the bottom buddy"
And you even tried to back that statement up with this meager NRCA survey that even Mark Gaulin would admit holds not water.
6-4-2009 www.professional*roofing*.net/article.aspx?id=623 
This is when I started to think someone was trying to get me riled up. I then began to do my research which took up way too much of my time. I even had to pull a favor to get some of the information. Which is o.k. because I'm going to use some of it in my Company's Propaganda. 

I've thrown national stats and international stats your way. All you have to say is what? I'm not even sure. Something about talking in circles. What does that mean? I have said nothing that is not true, misleading, or otherwise. Why are you still defending yourself? Why? 

Your respected in the industry for what? What industry? You can win any debate against me? I wasn't treating this as a winning or losing situation. But you probably should have picked another topic to "win". Because this is not the one. Maybe you can start a different one about why PVC sucks and why it's the least purchased. I dare you.

And if you think you can "out roof" me, I'm thinking you'd be sorely mistaken. I will assure you at that. I've come across many guys like yourself who talk like they know the deal, but can't get back up the ladder after lunch because of the heat. Your like the guy who hits the crapper the minute lunch is over. The guy who's legs move real fast, but then you realize he's not going anywhere.

This is my last post that will be directed to you roof consultant. I won't be addressing your nonsense moving forward. Discussing roofing topics with you is like trying to fasten R-19 iso with a 2" screw. I just aint catchin'.


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## BornaRoofer

rwolfe said:


> No EPDM comes with year warranty. is not necessarily pre-fab. Easily shop fabbed and delivered to site. The scope is fine. People who call themselves roofers get agitated when people arent sure of what they speak when discussing roofing. Every roofer thinks he knows everything there is to know. I personally would never recommend epdm for any project. TPO is white and much more durable to foot traffic and weathering than epdm. tpo is molecularly welded using hot air. therefore the seams are about% stronger than epdm. tpo is reinforced with polyester scrim as well. EPDM is a horrible product. Knowing today what we know, why would anyone put a black roof on anyways. Having said that though, epdm comes in white. More expensive though. Also, single ply guy was right about the fire barrier. You may want the roofer to provide the UL assembly he plans on referencing. Typically cafeteria's would need to be Class A roof assemblies. Let me know if you need any help with this.


 This was your original uncomprehendable post which fired me up due to your lack of knowledge or communication skills. I'm happy for you because you have learned a lot during our discussions here and are a much better writer now.
And about your question in your last post:I've thrown national stats and international stats your way. All you have to say is what?
All I have to say is thanks for the stats that proved my point that until recently epdm outsold all commercial roofing systems.


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## rwolfe

Good luck in your ventures. But unfortunately nothing was learned. Only confirmed.

rw


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## BornaRoofer

rwolfe said:


> Good luck in your ventures. But unfortunately nothing was learned. Only confirmed.
> 
> rw


I totally agree.:laughing:


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## rwolfe

Yer dillusional. Wish I would have known that before investing this much time in you. Funny though


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