# No valley metal



## roofing for Jesus

I just got a new build roof with five valleys and the builder told me not to put anything in the valley. 

I've never shingled a roof and not put something in the valley. If you offer any kind of guarantee it's kind of like working without a safety net if you don't have protection in the valley.


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## red_cedar

You should ask for a clarification of 'not anything'.


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## Grumpy

I only use metal in valleys on high end luxury shingles or cedar or tile. I can't recall a single time putting metal in a valley on a regular 3 tab or basic 30 year architectural shingle. However I put ice shield in every valley before installing the shingles.


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## AcclaimExteriors.com

We put ice and water in all valley's and also only do metal formed valley's color matched to the shingles. People try and cut costs with cheaper roofing contractors and this is only one of the problems they encounter. 

David


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## Interloc

We use #30 on most some we use I&W, but we use metal with a rib on all. Not to much 3-tabs here, H/O's and GC's think they look to old skool, I agree with them.


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## Joyfully

Hi,
It's nice to share your problem. I would suggest that Installing closed valleys with shingles and Leak Barriers results in awesome looking waterproof valleys and will benefit for other reasons too. The benefits of closed valleys with Leak Barriers are to seal the roof deck, and to seal the roof nails to the roof securely. This results in more waterproof confidence and less labor, it is easier and quicker to install and results in a more waterproof roof. Not to mention a better, more finished look and feel to the roof itself. Finishing a valley with shingles leaves a roof with a cleaner look, when using metal; the metal will rust and discolor the roofing over time.

*Roof Ventilator*


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## Interloc

Painted 26g valley metal DOES NOT rust, metal will out last shingles anyday,..but if ya dont know how to do it rite stick with closed.


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## Elmer Dowling

roofing for Jesus said:


> I just got a new build roof with five valleys and the builder told me not to put anything in the valley.
> 
> I've never shingled a roof and not put something in the valley. If you offer any kind of guarantee it's kind of like working without a safety net if you don't have protection in the valley.


I'd put ice and water shield in the valleys at LEAST. Maybe the builder doesn't want to pay for it, but it is going to be YOU that gets the call when the valley fails!!


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## AcclaimExteriors.com

Joyfully said:


> Hi,
> It's nice to share your problem. I would suggest that Installing closed valleys with shingles and Leak Barriers results in awesome looking waterproof valleys and will benefit for other reasons too. The benefits of closed valleys with Leak Barriers are to seal the roof deck, and to seal the roof nails to the roof securely. This results in more waterproof confidence and less labor, it is easier and quicker to install and results in a more waterproof roof. Not to mention a better, more finished look and feel to the roof itself. Finishing a valley with shingles leaves a roof with a cleaner look, when using metal; the metal will rust and discolor the roofing over time.
> 
> *Roof Ventilator*


Not only do closed valley's look like crap but if there are tree's around the house the closed valley will catch and hold leaves creating compost on the roof which will cause rot much faster than if it was done with a clean cut open metal valley. I have never had any open valley with formed metal rust ever. 

Yes all valley's need to be lined with Ice and Water shield no matter if they are closed or open. Some contractors just want to pocket the extra money by not spending what it takes to do a roof properly. 

We only use the highest quality products on our customers roofs GAF Timberline Prestique 30 rated at 110 MPH are our standard shingle. Yes our prices are higher but I also win 95% of the bids that I give. Quality costs and is noticed by the public. Here is a link to GAF's site on the shingles http://www.gaf.com/Roofing/Resident...ine-30-Prestique-High-Definition-Shingles.asp


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## TheBrain

Interloc said:


> Painted 26g valley metal DOES NOT rust, metal will out last shingles anyday,..but if ya dont know how to do it rite stick with closed.


what do you mean by "26g"? don't know if this sounds dumb, but i'm just trying to learn all i can about my profession.


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## Grumpy

26g is 26 gauge, as opposed to 24g which is 24 gauge. Which one is thicker? When talking about gauges, 24 is bigger than 26.


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## AcclaimExteriors.com

Brain that would be 26 gauge metal. The coatings that are used have rust inhibitors and as stated will far outlast the shingles on the roof. I have got to ask you how long have you been doing roofing? 

My business partner and I are both from construction building design and engineering backgrounds as well have done roofing off and on over many years before we began our construction company. We provide a far superior service and finished product to our customers than is available than from most roofing companies around. Sure there are some good ones but their standards are sub par and not up to what we provide in every case no matter if the house is a 30k home or a Million dollar home. They ALL get the same quality product from us and the same attention and personal service. Nobody deserves less than that for spending money on one of if not the most important parts of their home.


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## TheBrain

this is my fifth year roofing. up until this year i have always shingled a cut valley. now the company i work for wants me to shingle california style valleys. i don't know if it's because of the climate where i live but i hardly see any open valleys. i've worked in vancouver and pretty much all the roofs there are all ceder conversions with open valleys. but it rains so much there that it is the logical valley to choose.

and as far as quality goes. i totally agree with you. it's the fly by nighters that are killing the industry. guys that will take a 3k pay cut on the job to land it.


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## TheBrain

oh and thanks for the info, both of you.


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## AcclaimExteriors.com

Yeah and the homeowners don't realize that taking their roof replacement for so much less money they are getting something short of what they need. Also in most cases those roofers don't carry insurance or workmans comp nor or they registered contractors. Send me your email and I'll send you a report that we did for a bank on a roof done by one of those types. You will be amazed at what you will see and read.


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## Top Cat Roofing

My advise would be to put something in the valley. 
If for no other reason than the homeowner is counting on you, and that you want to be able to sleep at night.
Don't know what's common up by you , but 20" materiel, usually metal, is code here, (but 16" is commonly used).
Hopefully your quote can handle a bit for the flashing. If you can't at least weave the valley.
I fix new construction roofing all the time. 
Don't let a builder make you compromise yourself, it feels like crap.


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## AcclaimExteriors.com

Top cat the idea is to quote accordinly to do right by your customer. I am in a situation right now with a customer that has a 25sq roof that is two story farm house steep pitch 10/12p and rubber on top. This roof has 4 layers of shingles as well as a layer of shake. Their quotes are from 7500-9000. Now I have done a roof just like this and the last one I did was only 18sq and took 2 30yd dumpsters full on a long haul and they cost me 1500 alone. I only use GAF Timberline Prestique 110mph shingles and all GAF materials. My bid on this job is close to 15k. I however also offer a full roof replacement warranty thru GAF for 20 years to all of my customers. I say these other companies don't know what they are getting into on this one. They don't realize that there is a complete sheething job on 25sq involved as well as the 4 layers of shingles and the shake. How do you think you need to overcome this one? 

Same way you need to educate your customer. If you do it correctly and do what is right as well as use quality materials and charge accordingly you will do better than if you try and cut corners to just get the job.


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## Gatesroofing

It depends on your location and what type of material your putting on. If your putting a 50 year laminate or presidential style shingle then yes i would use metal over a closed valley. Now if your in snow area then YES you will need ice and water shield in the valley. if your not then a roll of 30# down the valley with each roll from either side going across and up the opposing side in a weaving pattern will be more then enough.

No for valley styels you can do either a weaved valley, a inverted starter row valley or a california valley (least what we call it out here).

Weaving is just weaving each row from each side as you go up. it makes a nice flat valley but will not give a good valley definition. Also when weaving, you must keep it straight or you will see the cross points venture out of the valley. doesnt look good then!

An inverted starter row is where you run the less step or less tall side of the two that meet at the valley first. then run a row of shingles up the valley on the unroofed part then roof across to that and stair step it up. i can give more details if you want. little to much to type.....

california valley is where you start just like the inverted but instead of running a row up the valley, you just run the other side of the valley to the valley then cut the shingles at the angle of the valley.

they will all last the life of the roof if done right and all i do now is inverted starter row valleys. i never do weaves because they just done define the valley transition. if you need more info let me know and i can explain them clearly. 

just remember tho, if you are using a real thick shingle like TL or presidential you must use metal as they dont flex like 30 or 40 year material.

Marc


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## Ridgewalker

I let the Home owner decide how he wants the valley to be done. If he wants metal. I use a 18" or 24" aluminum baked enamald coated valley over at least a 30lb felt. If no metal is wanted a California style Valley is used. On anything Like a Presidential or TL, no option, metal valleys are always used (they dont bend nice). A good roofer would have no problem doing either Metal or Non. :thumbup:


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## dougger222

Here's what the Minneosota state residential code states,

1. For open valley (valley lining exposed) lined with metal, the valley lining shall be at least 24 inches (610mm) wide and of any of the corrosion-resistat materials in Table R905.2.8.2

2. For open valleys, valley lining of two plies of mineral surfaced roll roofing, complying with ASTMD 3909 or ASTMD 6380 Class M, shall be permitted. The bottom layer shall be 18 inches (457mm) and the top layer a minumum of 36 inches (914mm) wide.

3. For closed valleys (valleys covered with shingles), valley lining of one ply of smooth roll roofing complying with ASTMD 6380 Class S TypeIII, Class M TypeII, or ASTMD 3909 and at least 36 inches wide (914mm) or valley lining as described in in Items 1 and 2 above shall be permitted. Specialy underlayment complying with ASTMD 1970 may be used in lieu of the lining material.

Table R905.2.8.2
Aluminum=.024 
Galvanized steel=.0179 Gage 26 (zinc coated G90)
Cold-rolled copper
Lead-coated copper
High-yield copper
Load-coated high-yield copper
Stainless stell
Zinc alloy
Lead
Painted terne


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## jimsonburg

You need to get complete information from the builder what he means by "not to put anything".


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## alwright

Grumpy said:


> I only use metal in valleys on high end luxury shingles or cedar or tile. I can't recall a single time putting metal in a valley on a regular 3 tab or basic 30 year architectural shingle. However I put ice shield in every valley before installing the shingles.




i have put metal valleys on all my shingles fron 2.5 in 12 to 18 in 12 roofs on the west coast of of vancover island and i have never had any leeks from my valleys and i have used 30 lbs felt on then but i have always used minimum 26 ga w valleys with a 6 inch lap on them it is part of the building code of bc now that you must have metal valley made from 24 inch stretch out metal 
and on the west coast of bc their is hi winds and rain all the time. 

the advantage of metal valleys helps a fair bit when you have pine tress around as the pine nedels tend to run down the valley when raining not like a weaved valley were they stick alot more to the shingles

and when i shingle the valley i always run a shingle up the valley parallel to the center of the v about 1.5 away and that way the shingle will seal to the valley and give a nice really straight line to go off


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## Interloc

alwright said:


> i have put metal valleys on all my shingles fron 2.5 in 12 to 18 in 12 roofs on the west coast of of vancover island and i have never had any leeks from my valleys and i have used 30 lbs felt on then but i have always used minimum 26 ga w valleys with a 6 inch lap on them it is part of the building code of bc now that you must have metal valley made from 24 inch stretch out metal
> and on the west coast of bc their is hi winds and rain all the time.
> 
> the advantage of metal valleys helps a fair bit when you have pine tress around as the pine nedels tend to run down the valley when raining not like a weaved valley were they stick alot more to the shingles
> 
> and when i shingle the valley i always run a shingle up the valley parallel to the center of the v about 1.5 away and that way the shingle will seal to the valley and give a nice really straight line to go off


 ditto...:thumbup: but different regions different ways..


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## JWRoofing

Valley metal is code in the high wind zone, so we use it under every valley and if the house is near the ocean then we use copper. 

Even though I espouse the virtues of copper valley and flashing metal near the salt water, last month we removed a very old shingle roof that was just blocks from the salt water. To my surprise, exposed galvanized metal in the valley only had one spot that rusted through. I would imagine up North it would easily outlast the roof if primed, painted and covered.


JW


_____________
Miami Roof Coating
Forklift Safety Training


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## rick13

*valleys*



Grumpy said:


> I only use metal in valleys on high end luxury shingles or cedar or tile. I can't recall a single time putting metal in a valley on a regular 3 tab or basic 30 year architectural shingle. However I put ice shield in every valley before installing the shingles.


 I also never put valley tin in valley I also put ice guard on it first a way better looking job :whistling:


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## RooferJim

We never use metal vallys for ashphalt shingles, that is unless they just want it for looks and in that case is copper. We do however always use I&W shield in the vallys though "who wouldn't".

www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## Grumpy

So when will Jesus return? 



Just a play on words wondering when the original poster will come back.


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## Top Cat Roofing

Grumpy said:


> So when will Jesus return?
> 
> Just a play on words wondering when the original poster will come back.


Funny. Yes, it's been a while, I'd like to know how it turned out.

I know it's been said multiple times, but where you are has a big impact on how you roof a valley (as well as other aspects of the roof). Both in code compliance, & field experience.

Here in Florida (central east coast) I have had open valleys done in Aluminum & copper crack. 
The reason is the sun is so hot, it causes allot of movement due to expansion/contraction.
Did not cause a leak because I weaved tar paper & put a peel and stick (I&W) below. I also dubbed my corners in the valley & tarred up both sides (re applied between every shingle).
Both were special jobs (1 mansard & copper on my house just for looks). 
I never install an open valley in Florida. Always a California with tar between the lap. 
Weaved shingles is foolproof (for performance), but I don't like it.

Tar paper is very important here, so I weave it in all valleys.
After 12-13 years here, 3 tab shingles will become porous, and leave an imprint of the keyways on the tar paper. The shingles actually leach water in the keys.
Now I have gone 100% peel & stick instead of tar paper after re-nailing the deck to current code (re-nailing is required).

The current economy has put an emphasis on the original posters dilemma of working for a builder who dictates a shortcut. IE; work is scarce.
Guys are doing jobs for near nothing around here. It's ok though, I'll fix their work down the line.


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## MetalGuru

I run a sheet metal shop primarily for the roofing/siding industries. I have always made valley at least 24" wide and usually in 26 ga. The only exception to that is if it's a tile roof. My own opinion is to use 26ga in the valley with i/w underneath. Pretty much guaranteed it'll never leak. I think it's worth the extra $$$. My roof is 22 sq and I used i/w on the whole thing. All eave and gable metal is 26ga and my one 7' open "W" valley and fascia is 24ga. Overkill... Probably... But it'll never leak or warp. Worth the extra money.


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## vtroofing

RooferJim said:


> We never use metal vallys for ashphalt shingles, that is unless they just want it for looks and in that case is copper. We do however always use I&W shield in the vallys though "who wouldn't".
> 
> www.jbennetteroofing.com


A little further North we also used closed valleys in most applications. 
With sliding snow and ice a metal valley is not preferred as it does not care what it (sliding ice) hits it will ruin. 

Also ice grows and under the shingles it grows on those roofs that do not slide.


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## roofermikeinc

*Roofing is regiona[*

For roofers in Miami mandatory 26ga 16" valley metal was a knee-jerk reaction to Hurricane Andrew. Grumpy's right, if the shingles are correctly installed there is no _need_ for valley metal. Metal beneath a bad install only delays the inevitable. I like to weave & step-bull all shingles except 3-tabs which get a western cut.. Just faster. Never had a client tell me how to do the valley and never consulted them on it. I'll decide how the roof is installed, thank you.

All that aside, if the valley has some irregularities from some past wood-butchers, metal could be a way to smooth it out rather than rebuilding the thing

Gotta' have metal in the valleys for clay tile, concrete tile and standing seam metal of course as they are typically open. 

Doesn't snow down here so all this ice & water stuff is Latin to me. Psssttt . . .Roofing is regional . . .

I need LIKES ! ! ! www.Facebook/RooferMikeInc.com

www.roofermikeinc.com


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## Top Cat Roofing

I agree with Mike & Grumpy.
It's never a bad idea to have a plan B in the system, but the main reason I like metal in the valley is strength. Many homeowners will walk up the center of the valley.
In that case, a material valley could tear, or a lifted deck nail head can be shoved thru the shingles.


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## Interloc

Yup it is regional, around here a closed valley is old school..everyone gets 26g W valleys.


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## MetalGuru

Interloc said:


> Yup it is regional, around here a closed valley is old school..everyone gets 26g W valleys.


I agree valleys should be open and 26ga or thicker but you don't really need a W valley unless the valley is right next to a gutter downspout. Nothing wrong with it but it's not necessary. Not everybody likes the W part of it. Alot of homeowners prefer just regular valley IMO.


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## roofermikeinc

Down here in Miami roofing systems must endure debris sometimes flying around in excess of 100 mph. A closed, step-bulled valley increases its ability to withstand impacts. It doesn't take much to pierce unprotected 26 ga metal.

Did a couple shingle jobs for my old boss on his rentals in Houston. I did them to Miami-Dade Code. Had to special order some of it. They all had that W valley metal & none of 'em had drip-edge. Just ran the shingles 3/4" long. Then Hurricane Ike tore Houston a new one. He told me all the roofs in his 'hood were messed up - except his.
Yeah, roofing is regional . . . :whistling:
www.roofermikeinc.com


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## Interloc

Never happened here..I'm glad, wouldnt want the old school look..:thumbup:.


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## roofermikeinc

Old school? Open valleys are old school. Once upon a time most valleys were open and copper was used. People liked them open to show the copper and some even kept it polished. Too expensive now. 
I personally think open valleys look like hell probably because I hardly ever see them on shingle roofs in Miami.
www.re-roofs&roofrepair.com


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## AnyMonkey

I would like to throw in my two cents here. What I suggest is not so clearly what is right or wrong as a roofing rule in general but what is better for your area. In Vancouver here we have alot of rain and i do mean alot. We also have a fair bit of freezing and snow. In our area it is no longer allowed by our roofng association to have closed or (woven) valleys and all valleys must be open style 26 g metal "w" type valleys. The shingles are cut with a slight taper which is more narrow at the top of the valley and further apart at the bottom. it is also recommended to run a bead of mastic under each course of shingle in the valley. What we found here was that closed valleys that were fine with 3 tab or tlock shingles were no longer working well with the new laminate shingles. One of the problems was that the shingles were delaminating because of the stress being applied to them as they bent up the opposing valley side. our freeze thaw cycle was probably compounding this problem and it might not occur in hotter climates where the asphalt is more pliable. Also because the high profile of the shingle created more gaps in the valleys water and ice were more susceptible (sp?) to capillary action and water was being pulled under the shingles and when that water froze and expanded it was causing damage to the shingles. At any rate I doubt that the same problems would occur in hotter more moderate climates and possibly closed valleys work well there.


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## Interloc

around here , closed is old school , no one wants it , but like anymonkey says..


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## Joe Roofer

Around here shingles are old school. Here I've done both W metal valleys and closed cut valley (some interlaced). No problems with ether one. No ice shield ether (well rarely but it says not to use it here right on the box). Only interlaced underlayment. I've never took off a shingle roof that the valley had burned out before the field did. Shingles do not last long here. With the current price of shingles I'm not sure there is much of a cost difference anyway.


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## MetroMetals

*valley*

I see contractors all day coming in to get metal valley. We typically see 24ga used but 26 is fine as well. The W seems to be used 90% of the time.


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## RooferJim

In Massachusetts most almost all valleys on shingle roofs have just I&W shield, no metal is needed unless its exposed and for looks.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## Super Roofer

I wouldn't put metal under shingles. It's like a frying pan, cook your roof eventually. I would recommend putting some sort of ice&water shield, 90#, and then cover it with a closed cut valley.


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## TedLeger

*Shingles*

I prefer both the metal and then shingle over it. You have to make sure you don't nail into the metal though. It takes a little technique but it is double the protection.


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## Wislon Roofing

roofing for Jesus said:


> I just got a new build roof with five valleys and the builder told me not to put anything in the valley.
> 
> I've never shingled a roof and not put something in the valley. If you offer any kind of guarantee it's kind of like working without a safety net if you don't have protection in the valley.


I always install valley metal.

It out lasts the shingles by tenfold.


the weaving of the shingles over time leads to cracked shingles in the valley causing leaks...


Instead install 30# paper down the center of the valley. Then install your valley metal. After, put your starter shingles up along your valley metal starting from the bottom to the top. 

Once that is complete you shingle as normal ending each row of shingle at your 'starters'.


I wouldn't do it any other way.













I installed this re-roof last October in North Vancouver, B.C. For the valleys instead of paper, I used peel & stick in the center of the valley before the actual valley metal. But that was a little over kill.

Anyways, the picture above is the proper way to install valley metal.


Wilson Roofing - Roofing Vancouver 604.700.5405


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## roofsmith

If you are providing the warranty then you should install the roof the way you normally do or know for sure it won't leak. It may be for a contractor but your name still goes on that roof at the end of the day. if I get asked to do something I do agree with by the home owner I always go into explaining exactly why I want to do it my way and the pro and con's of both ways. They usually go for paying that little extra to make sure they have a roof that will last and you can guarantee won't leak


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## Super Roofer

Closed cut valleys are the best. Install iceshield, 90#, and then cover with the shingles. Metal valleys look ridiculousness. Unless it's an old luxury home, then you may want to consider open copper valleys.


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## Davis2021

I prefer just putting Ice and Water Shield in the valleys. Reliable and never have any problems


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## MetalGuru

Wislon Roofing said:


> I always install valley metal.
> 
> For the valleys instead of paper, I used peel & stick in the center of the valley before the actual valley metal. But that was a little over kill.


My house is done the same way. Overkill, not really. Insurance it won't leak I think. I used I&W for the bottom 6' of eave and valleys. Then covered everything (including the I&W) with synthetic. Just so the shingles don't stick to the I&W. I think that might be a little overkill.


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## dan c.

i'm a firm believer of metal in valleys. even under closed valleys. repaired many where no metal was used. even the cheapest valley metal is way better than none at all. My 2 cents


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