# Building Felt 15 or 30lb. will not



## dennisD

These products will not allow homeowners to receive reduced wind and hail insurance rates in most S.E. Coastal States. Must us Miami-Dade approved synthetic underlayment properly installed or closed foam attic insulation.


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## Grumpy

Ok I'll bite. Closed foam _attic insulation_ will allow a home owner to receive reduced _hail_ and _wind_ insurance? 

Ok first post, seamingly meaningless, what's the agenda?


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## dennisD

No agenda, just see homeowners missing out on major reduced insurance rates when I perform evaluations for the Institute for Business and Home Safety. The IBHS requires a secondary water barrier under wind rated shingles or metal roofs that will allow the homeowner time to have repairs
made to prevent water intusion into the attic during an shortly after a high wind event. These secondary water barriers can take the form of complete "peel abd stick" products, synthetic underlayments properly installed, zip-strip sheathing with tape joints or closed cell attic foam. Many roofers and contractors in N.C. are not aware of this new program. Google IBHS Fortified Homes. Good way to expand premium services you offer.


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## Grumpy

Why the heck would attic insulation have ANYTHING to do with wind insurance?


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## 1985gt

Or hail for that matter


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## Interloc

probaly because its the same people who make the OSHA rules as these ones....


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## dennisD

A closed cell attic foam insulation ( no soffit or gable vents ) is an excellent water barrier. When the shimngles fail in a storm the living area is protected bu a complete umbreela of dense foam. Kinf of like trying to pour water through the bottom of a cooler.


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## Interloc

so why not just put the underlayment on and be done with it?...sheesh..


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## vtroofing

Thats just stupid.

Spray foam on the underside of decking as protection from rainwater. I can name a few reasons why I think its a stupid idea. 

If nobody knows there is a roof leak, surely extensive damage will occur to decking and structural members. 

Those procrastinators awaiting a leak to show up on the ceiling before they replace their roof will see this the most. Imagine being the crooked contractor that has to tell the homeowner to repair all this damage will exceed roof cost. 

Now I am really hoping this won't be a flat ceiling spray foamed and expected to carry a pond in the attic if their is no roof left. Remember water weighs 8 pounds per gallon and ceilings are typically under built.

I can't stop shaking my head no. NO NO NO NO NO


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## 1985gt

What? dennisD are you try to tell us that spray foam is water proof? :laughing: All it will do is hold water and create even more problems.


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## dennisD

You must not be familiar with CLOSED Cell foam, Google IBHD Fortified Homes . A science class might also help. By the way this foam also increases the total roof system strength by creating an additional bond between the rafters and sheathing.


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## 1985gt

Ok clue me in. There are many types of closed cell foam. Being this is a roofing forum spray foam comes to mind. I have dealt with spray foam in a number of different areas of a home or building. Lets start with *inside*. Insulation for walls and attic. High R value. Excellent as a sound deading material. Will seal out "air" leaks. Cons, expensive compared to fiberglass. *Roof*, cheap reroof, no need to tear off. just spray and coat. Cons Needs to be recoated every 5 or so years. Birds love to pick at it. Hail loves to break the coating. Holds water (ie) Owner does not know his roof has problems until it really shows. Holds water mostly because the old roof is still underneath. Looks ugly, generally "sprayers" cant get a good tapered coat on/leaves the roof with standing water. If you spray this on the underside of deck/home, it will hold any moisture and ruin said decking.

As far as science class goes, I prefer real life experiences my self.

Here are some examples of other closed cell foams.

Polyethylene Foam
Volara Foam
Minicel Foam
Polystyrene Foam
Neoprene Rubber
Gymnastic Rubber


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## dennisD

*foam type*

polyurethane closed cell foam on the under side of the OSB or plywood roof deck will help prevent water intrusion during the hours of wind and rain associated with a hurricane and allow the home owner a short window of opportunity to have damaged shingles or metal replaced. It in no way serves as a long term roof covering. Hurricane Irene's eye passed over our hometown and we were subjected to almost 8 hours of intense rain and hurricane or tropical force winds. Many late model homes lost shingles and the black building felt left with the shingles resulting in $$$ lost when other types of attic insulation were soaked and drywall dropped on the furniture below. Properly installed ZIP-Strip roofing tape and deck also worked well.


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## 1985gt

polyurethane closed cell foam will adsorb water. So while it may help with water entering the home the decking and foam will need to be removed. If not it will rot the plywood/osb and framing members from the underside of the house. This will be exaggerated with the high temps and humidity commonly associated with an attic. So while yes it will help keep the fiberglass insulation, the dry wall and other areas of the home dry it will cause more problems they wont be seen until its a bigger problem. 

So the next time you tell a "dumb" roofer to take a science class you your self may want to get some real world experience with these types of things before coming in here spreading your propaganda.


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## dennisD

Sorry if you took my response personally. The only dumb people I have to deal with as a IBHS fortified homes evaluator are building contractors and roofing contractors who refuse to keep up to date with insurance requirements that will allow their customers to receive savings year after year on their wind and hail rate. The engineering staff at IBHS ( Institute for Business and Home Safety ) has done more research on hurricane damage including building full size homes side by side and then blowing them apart in the largest wind tunnel in the US. than any other organization. My 40 years in the construction industry may differ from yours but let me assure you that only through science can solutions be found, not by continuing to do work the way we as an industry have done in the past. Even if we do not all agree it really does not matter. Only by following the insurance industry guidelines created by IBHS can our customers receive the insurance credits they seek and need. Our goal should be to best serve our customers. 20% savings off a $10,000 a year wind and hail policy has been well received by people I deal with.


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## Interloc

Soo..dennisD..whats the plan once all the "foam" has absorbed all the water?


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## MJW

dennisD said:


> My 40 years in the construction industry may differ from yours but let me assure you that *only* through science can solutions be found, not by continuing to do work the way we as an industry have done in the past.


No way I would ever believe that. If you have actually been in the biz, you wouldn't either.

Science helps considerably, but can never duplicate what mother nature can dish out. So..... Science can NEVER be the only way to find building solutions.

Working along side insurance companies will easily make you biased and I understand. :whistling:


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## dennisD

Closed cell foam will not absorb the water.


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## 1985gt

dennisD said:


> Sorry if you took my response personally. The only dumb people I have to deal with as a IBHS fortified homes evaluator are building contractors and roofing contractors who refuse to keep up to date with insurance requirements that will allow their customers to receive savings year after year on their wind and hail rate. The engineering staff at IBHS ( Institute for Business and Home Safety ) has done more research on hurricane damage including building full size homes side by side and then blowing them apart in the largest wind tunnel in the US. than any other organization. My 40 years in the construction industry may differ from yours but let me assure you that only through science can solutions be found, not by continuing to do work the way we as an industry have done in the past. Even if we do not all agree it really does not matter. Only by following the insurance industry guidelines created by IBHS can our customers receive the insurance credits they seek and need. Our goal should be to best serve our customers. 20% savings off a $10,000 a year wind and hail policy has been well received by people I deal with.


Next time please read what everyone of us has wrote before trying to insult us again. Your 40 years is BS or you have sat on the wrong side of the table for that 40 years. 





dennisD said:


> Closed cell foam will not absorb the water.


Explain to us what you think closed cell foam is. Every time I think of it, I think of spray foam, all though it can be open or closed but in roof applications it generally is closed cell. I also think of ISO (Polyisocyanurate) roof insulation. It is used as an insulation not a water proofing. I have seen it absorb water in fact this makes me want to go throw a piece of ISO in to the rain right now and take pictures of it before and after. 


If you read nothing else, Please read and answer this.

If Closed cell foam is water proof why on spray foamed roofs do they need to coat it? There are two reasons 3 reasons. I ask you to list all three.


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## Grumpy

foam on the inside of an attic is not goign to help with hail. Period. End of that portion of the discussion.

foam on the inside of an attic has a chance it could trap moisture against the sheathign and framing should there ever be a leak from the roof. Ok. I think everyone can agree with this, but it's not the topic of the original post so I won't stray.

Hmmm I don't know, it is possible, I am not an engineer, but perhaps maybe foam on the inside of an attic can help against wind uplift on the roof. I have no idea how or why, but I am willing to concede that I don't have proof for nor against this claim. IN my mind I see it being total bull chit, but there are lots of things I am cynical about which seem to work in real life even though I can't phathom how.


So you came to this forum with some kind of agenda. The roofers of the rofum called out the bull chit and you struck back. 

You speak of science, but let's see some science and documented evidence proving your comments. It'd be nice to seen an engineer explain how foam inside an attic will stop the shingles from blowing off the roof, or even stop the sheathing and framing from blowing off the house in a tornado or hurricane.


Until I see some fair and impartial proof, I am done with this non-sensical thread.


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## 1985gt

Grumpy said:


> You speak of science, but let's see some science and documented evidence proving your comments. It'd be nice to seen an engineer explain how foam inside an attic will stop the shingles from blowing off the roof, or even stop the sheathing and framing from blowing off the house in a tornado or hurricane.


It wont, the shingles will still blow off and the nails that are left will be harder to remove. I may make the structure stronger, I will give it that. The rest is pointless to talk about. Wind in a hurricane or tornado wont care if there is spray foam under the roof deck.


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## dennisD

Foam in the attic does nothing to prevent shingles from blowing off. The rigid closed cell foam products adds strength to the framing structure and prevents short term leaks untill the roof material is repaired. This is only one of the approved secondary water barriers approved by IBHS. More common approaches are a complete "peel and stick" product over the plywood or OSB sheathing or a Miami-Dade approved tape system on the joints of the plywood/OSB roof deck. Anyone wanting "proof " on how these systems work call or google IBHS Fortified Program. Remimber this only is in effect in coastal southeastern and gulf coast states for reduced wind and hail rates. By the way the term wind and hail is a special policy required in our areas. Protection from hail strikes is not related this is just the name of a general type of policy.


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## shazapple

Nothing is waterproof, even Expanded Polystyrene absorbs water.

Irregardless, spray foam is insulation, not a structural or waterproofing component. Any type of insulation directly to the underside of the roof deck will typically void the shingle manufacturers warranty.


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## Grumpy

This whole thread is a joke in my opinion posted to serve some agenda of the original poster. My $0.02.


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## dennisD

If you live in Chicago, Nebraska or Canada for that matter just give it up, the programs I have brought to your attention only applies to hurricane prone areas of the US. The program and the science is real. Opinions are worth exactly what they cost. Backward thinking is why the construction industry lagges behind most indusutry groups in catching up with the times. Point of record shingle warranties are NOT now voided by the use of open or closed cell foam products on the inside of roof decks. In fact our state building code recognizes sealed attics and crawl spaces as a safe and energy efficient option and it is widely used. There is a difference between opinion and fact.


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## shazapple

Yes, there is a difference between opinion and fact. 

http://www.iko.com/warranties/
12. Any damage or distortion caused by inadequate ventilation either at the eaves or on the rooftop of the building. This includes failure of ventilation caused by blocked, non operative or defective vents or any other condition that renders the ventilation system ineffective. Roof system ventilation should meet local building code standards for total vent area. Ventilation must also be distributed evenly between the rooftop and the eaves of the building;

http://www.bpcan.com/documentation-and-tutorials.aspx
(b) the roof and each part of it must be designed and built in accordance with the applicable local and National Building Codes. All roof structures must be provided with thorough ventilation and the deck over which the shingles are installed must meet minimum building code requirements. Where local building codes have specific requirements which differ from National Building Codes, the more stringent requirement must be followed.

http://www.certainteed.com/resource/roofing/warranties
This is the only warranty that says you can use fiberglass shingles without ventilation. Using asphalt shingles gives you a reduced warranty period.

http://www.powerhrg.com/_files/files/Roof_Warranty.pdf GAF-ELK
Goes into less detail than the rest, but says warranty does not apply if there is "inadequate attic ventilation"

Talk to any manufacturer rep or field agent and they will tell you the amount of warranty claims they deny because of imporper ventilation.


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## 1985gt

dennisD said:


> If you live in Chicago, Nebraska or Canada for that matter just give it up, the programs I have brought to your attention only applies to hurricane prone areas of the US. The program and the science is real. Opinions are worth exactly what they cost. Backward thinking is why the construction industry lagges behind most indusutry groups in catching up with the times. Point of record shingle warranties are NOT now voided by the use of open or closed cell foam products on the inside of roof decks. In fact our state building code recognizes sealed attics and crawl spaces as a safe and energy efficient option and it is widely used. There is a difference between opinion and fact.



You also said high wind event. I know we have high winds here, even a tornado or two, Chicago well they are the windy city, I would even venture to guess Canada has a high wind new and again. 

Just because your state building codes something doesn't make it right. Yes spray foam is a good insulator, 6-7 R value per inch. Will it make the structure stronger, may be a bit but it is by no means a structural product by its self. *IT IS NOT WATER PROOF*. It may prevent water from entering a home but it also absorbs water, we have giving you coutless *FACTS* on this when we see something in the field, it actually happened, there for it passes over the realm of opinion to *FACT*. 

You came in here with an agenda, we proved you wrong but since you seem to think there is no way water can enter spray foam we are the ones who are wrong even though we have seen this before, I can not speak for the others but I have seen a whole lot of spray foam roofs that absorb water, to the point where it caused structural damage. 

Now please I beg you to answer my question I posted before since you seem to avoid it.





1985gt said:


> If Closed cell foam is water proof why on spray foamed roofs do they need to coat it? There are two reasons 3 reasons. I ask you to list all three.


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