# Carlisle EPDM detail change



## llmotoll

So they now require lap sealant around all edges of elastoform. 

What do you guys make of the flip flop with this detail change. At first they did, then the said it was not required, now its back again.


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## 1985gt

When did they allow you not to? The book from 2011 says to.

We just started doing Carlisle but have done Versico for years. We've always put lap sealant around all cured/uncured patchs/details.


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## llmotoll

Spec books are nice but they are no longer reliable. Some details have been discontinued and with the frequent detail updates and new products being implemented into existing details you could find a detail in a written spec leading you wrong one day. If you don't already use the website for detail review I would recommend you start especially if your fairly new to using Carlisle. Firestone does the same with a much higher rate of change in both new products and detail revisions.
Tier II manufactures like Versico went for a decade or more with only a hand full of detail changes. Duro-Last went 15-20 years with no detail changes at all. So using a written spec book was safe and reliable. I know DL has made some changes in the last couple years, so they may have an updated specification manual now. 
Still it's always best practice to pull the details directly from manufacture web site. That's just my $0.02

________________________
Back in the days of splice adhesive everything would be lap sealed. 

Then came pressure sensitive (pre-taped) products which greatly reduced the need for lap sealant. Corners, T-patches, pipe and misc. uncured flashing would require lap sealant be applied and at intersections. Field seams done with 3" pressure sensitive tape did not require lap sealant.
And then a couple years ago lap sealant being applied at intersections underneath a T-patch came out.
However there were some details using uncured flashing that did not require lap sealant along every edge if it were a pressure sensitive product. 
Example: 4' x 8' welded water insulated curb could be installed using a compression seal base tie-in for prompt dry in and fall back to flash it in at a later date (perhaps on the 30% chance of rain days). Using a 6" uncured pressure sensitive flashing to strip in the flange and lap seal all cut edges and 3" in all directions from intersections. Lap sealant along the entire length on all sides of each piece was not required.

Now Carlisle is requiring all edges of uncured flashing be lap sealed.


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## 1985gt

We do use the website, I'm on versico's or carlisles pretty much every day. From what I have seen the details are the same, you since they are the same company and all. 

We are pretty knowledgeable in single plys, we were installing Goodyear in the 80's.

But you never answered my question. When did they change the detail back? Or when was lap seal not required around the edges? We have been lap sealing the whole detail for 15+ years now. 

I really don't see how much that would make a difference on generally such small amounts. I guess if you were doing a couple thousand squares and there was a ton of curbs and corners You may save 5-25 tubes of lap seal, and what 1-5 hours of time? That few hundred bucks is rather small compared to the 100's of thousands the job is.

Your example of a stripping in the flange of a curb, why would you caulk that if it is temporary anyway? If you were to bring your flashing out past the edge of the 6" you wouldn't have to worry about it. Then you would only have to lap seal around your corner details. If you flashed it in one piece then the corner details would be very minimal.

To be fair I honestly think lap seal is a crock. I think it's just there to minimize the manufactures responsibility. Far to many people are not good at details, and this was the manufactures way to limit leaks for the first couple of years.

I don't even want to start on putting lap seal under the T-joint patches.


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## llmotoll

1985gt said:


> But you never answered my question. When did they change the detail back? Or when was lap seal not required around the edges? We have been lap sealing the whole detail for 15+ years now.


Just this year, like a couple weeks ago the detail was changed.

Ever since pre-taped uncured flashing products came out they did not require lap sealant along the entire perimeter of uncured flashing.
Example: using 3" seam tape on field seam and the tape does not extend beyond the leading edge of the top lap. Warranty requires the seam to be stripped in with either 6" cured or uncured. If uncured is used the only portion would have been (past tense) at the ends of the 100' long strip not both sides of the entire length.

Yes, agree it's not a big deal on cost.
However, we just learned of this change the hard way. Large project just got tagged with an unexpected punch list applying lap sealant to hundreds of penetrations. Approximately 15 man hours. Still not a big deal in the whole scheme of things. But when your trying to put a project to bed it's quite the PITA. 
Did not matter the job was done prior to the detail change.


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## llmotoll

1985gt said:


> Your example of a stripping in the flange of a curb, why would you caulk that if it is temporary anyway? .


You misunderstand the detail used for an example. My bad, I was trying not to type a book to explain.
-Wood blocking placed under 4" curb flange built to same height of insulation
-Rubber field sheet laid in place over wood blocking and cut at ID of opening / same as the hole cut in the decking
-A welded water tight curb with a 4" flange & interior insulation / typical skylight curb
-Water cut-off applied to underneath side of curb flange
-Screw flange down 12" OC / this is the curb base tie in and now putting the curb in a water tight condition (temporarily sealed) 
-Strip in the flange with 6" Pressure sensitive flashing. All that would be lap sealed would have been the intersections at the corners

In my personal opinion I like this detail and wish it were used more often. But it does not seam to be very popular and not a good fit for everything.


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## llmotoll

1985gt said:


> To be fair I honestly think lap seal is a crock. I think it's just there to minimize the manufactures responsibility. Far to many people are not good at details, and this was the manufactures way to limit leaks for the first couple of years.
> 
> I don't even want to start on putting lap seal under the T-joint patches.


LVOC primer was my first thought. Its now code here for large portion of the year. Not state wide though and not sure where else LVOC products are code, I've heard its hit miss around the nation. And since manufacture details are not regional. 
And its funny how your not to stir the LVOC, the gunk at the bottom of the pail is supposed to remain, if mixed with other contents the primer will fail. And the bottom 1/7th of the pail is not supposed to be used.

Ya, I hear on the T-patches, but its been out for a couple years now.


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## 1985gt

llmotoll said:


> Just this year, like a couple weeks ago the detail was changed.
> 
> Ever since pre-taped uncured flashing products came out they did not require lap sealant along the entire perimeter of uncured flashing.
> Example: using 3" seam tape on field seam and the tape does not extend beyond the leading edge of the top lap. Warranty requires the seam to be stripped in with either 6" cured or uncured. If uncured is used the only portion would have been (past tense) at the ends of the 100' long strip not both sides of the entire length.
> 
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding but our book that was printed in 2011 all uncured and cured details were lap sealed. It doesn't make since to do so on the factory sides, just on the field cut ends of the patches TBH. I wonder if it also doesn't have to deal with this. A few years ago we ran in to a lot of uncured 9" that the tape would peal away from the uncured EPDM top. I wonder if it's to cover their own ass?
> 
> Yes, agree it's not a big deal on cost.
> However, we just learned of this change the hard way. Large project just got tagged with an unexpected punch list applying lap sealant to hundreds of penetrations. Approximately 15 man hours. Still not a big deal in the whole scheme of things. But when your trying to put a project to bed it's quite the PITA.
> Did not matter the job was done prior to the detail change.



100% agree every little thing counts.




llmotoll said:


> You misunderstand the detail used for an example. My bad, I was trying not to type a book to explain.
> -Wood blocking placed under 4" curb flange built to same height of insulation
> -Rubber field sheet laid in place over wood blocking and cut at ID of opening / same as the hole cut in the decking
> -A welded water tight curb with a 4" flange & interior insulation / typical skylight curb
> -Water cut-off applied to underneath side of curb flange
> -Screw flange down 12" OC / this is the curb base tie in and now putting the curb in a water tight condition (temporarily sealed)
> -Strip in the flange with 6" Pressure sensitive flashing. All that would be lap sealed would have been the intersections at the corners
> 
> In my personal opinion I like this detail and wish it were used more often. But it does not seam to be very popular and not a good fit for everything.


I get your explanation just fine, the only part I didn't was for it to be not temp. We've always flashed every curb including metal. WHy wouldn't you strip the flange in with cured? It's really no different then a gravel stop.



llmotoll said:


> LVOC primer was my first thought. Its now code here for large portion of the year. Not state wide though and not sure where else LVOC products are code, I've heard its hit miss around the nation. And since manufacture details are not regional.
> And its funny how your not to stir the LVOC, the gunk at the bottom of the pail is supposed to remain, if mixed with other contents the primer will fail. And the bottom 1/7th of the pail is not supposed to be used.
> 
> Ya, I hear on the T-patches, but its been out for a couple years now.


Luckily for us we do not have to deal with it.


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## llmotoll

1985gt said:


> WHy wouldn't you strip the flange in with cured? It's really no different then a gravel stop.


Agree it's best to complete 100% as you lay new roof. And understand why you would ask why would you not simply strip it in while you are there and be done with it. Makes sense and it probably could have been done, but we decided to go another route to divide the manpower and control quality.


Well, there are always several approaches that can be taken to attack a project and in my opinion the more you can break it down the faster it will go and the more control on quality workmanship.
1,742,400 square feet fast track new construction project. Contract required 100% lay out in 30 calendar days. No provisions for inclement weather. We did it easily in 28 days. We could have laid out a lot more roof if they could have built the building faster. Ballast EPDM, 150' x 50' rolls, 4' x 12' x 2" iso. It took an additional 90 days to finish the ballast & about one and a half years to finish all the penetration work. 
200+ - 650 lb smoke hatches - set on wood blocking level with insulation
150+ - 4' x 8' skylights -set on wood blocking level with insulation
for these two types of curbs we decided to use the bulk of the labor force to haul across the roof, cut in and place the curbs at least 4 per day. And then a detail man would follow up behind them to strip the flange while he is doing any other detail work require in the area of the roof.
100+ - HVAC curbs - leveled on wood blocking
quite a few pipes, gas lines, electrical conduits and B-vents
2 detail men and 2 laborers dedicated every day till finished
All sheet metal work done by 2 man metal crew.
When the job was almost finished all the crushed insulation from the tractors would get replaced approx. 400 squares in various locations.

When all other labor work was finished they would move on to the next project with crew leader and right hand man.


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## llmotoll

uncured on drip edge is better than cured.


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## 1985gt

llmotoll said:


> Agree it's best to complete 100% as you lay new roof. And understand why you would ask why would you not simply strip it in while you are there and be done with it. Makes sense and it probably could have been done, but we decided to go another route to divide the manpower and control quality.
> 
> 
> Well, there are always several approaches that can be taken to attack a project and in my opinion the more you can break it down the faster it will go and the more control on quality workmanship.
> 1,742,400 square feet fast track new construction project. Contract required 100% lay out in 30 calendar days. No provisions for inclement weather. We did it easily in 28 days. We could have laid out a lot more roof if they could have built the building faster. Ballast EPDM, 150' x 50' rolls, 4' x 12' x 2" iso. It took an additional 90 days to finish the ballast & about one and a half years to finish all the penetration work.
> 200+ - 650 lb smoke hatches - set on wood blocking level with insulation
> 150+ - 4' x 8' skylights -set on wood blocking level with insulation
> for these two types of curbs we decided to use the bulk of the labor force to haul across the roof, cut in and place the curbs at least 4 per day. And then a detail man would follow up behind them to strip the flange while he is doing any other detail work require in the area of the roof.
> 100+ - HVAC curbs - leveled on wood blocking
> quite a few pipes, gas lines, electrical conduits and B-vents
> 2 detail men and 2 laborers dedicated every day till finished
> All sheet metal work done by 2 man metal crew.
> When the job was almost finished all the crushed insulation from the tractors would get replaced approx. 400 squares in various locations.
> 
> When all other labor work was finished they would move on to the next project with crew leader and right hand man.



I can understand that larger projects have a different set of circumstances. 



llmotoll said:


> uncured on drip edge is better than cured.


According to who? Every time i've seen uncured used on drip edge it has failed in 5-10 years. When the membrane and metal start moving at different rates the uncured can not hold up.


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## llmotoll

If the drip edge components were not assembled correctly, yes movement will cause premature failure at the uncured flashing. If that happens there are greater concerns than failed flashing. 

Maybe I could buy you a beer someday and debate the matter. :thumbup1:


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## 1985gt

llmotoll said:


> If the drip edge components were not assembled correctly, yes movement will cause premature failure at the uncured flashing. If that happens there are greater concerns than failed flashing.
> 
> Maybe I could buy you a beer someday and debate the matter. :thumbup1:


100% agree, if you didn't install the drip edge correctly, shop formed or otherwise you have other issues than what you striped the flange in with.

I do like beer, and good conversation. 

Ironically I was looking in the book this morning for something and found the curb detail you were talking about, with stripping it in with 9". I noticed they say to use cured. To me that doesn't make much sense, on wall lap flashing you have to use the uncured product to avoid any bridging at the angle change... 

I haven't looked at the web site to see if it has been changed yet. Just thought that it was interesting. 

They do love making you pay for the 9 and 12" products


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## llmotoll

Carlisle has always been a cured "anywhere you can" kind of manufacture. And Firestone seems to be more if the roof membrane has been terminated and laid in place per spec with good workmanship than uncured is best on flange type details.

Have installed/sold both manufactures for over 25 years and have laid a lot of roof from a bar stool :thumbup1: . Now watching roofs installed as a young lad get replaced. Back then I thought those roofs would last forever. It's amazing how fast things deteriorate. And it's interesting to see certain details fail faster then expected.

Remember that old wood nailer base tie-in detail Firestone used long ago. ? I seen one of those still in place a few months ago. Absolutely amazing! The one thing this particular roof had going for it was routine maintenance. The owner is big on PM work. 

Yes, that's funny isn't it. You could just strip in the flange and be done with it. Kind of defeats the purpose of doing the wood blocking compression seal. Might as well set the curb on the deck and flash it like normal.


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## 1985gt

We've never done a Firestone EPDM job, politics in our area and the Territory's salesmen. Even though we have done 100's of thousands of squares of Firestone BUR. The area rep was told by another company not to allow anyone else to install the EPDM or they would find another manufacture. Oddly enough we were called to do a few repairs on a roof this "cash cow" had done but couldn't find the problems. 

That's the main reason why we use GAF and JM for our hot lines.

The old wood nailer for anchor bar wasn't near as bad as the plastic one or that pile of junk that Good Year put out years and years ago P.E. Rail. 

We still see some roof's that still have the PE rail. We installed a lot of it back when it was "new". We also replaced a lot of it with better methods!


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## llmotoll

Yes the 2 x 4 lumber with a 45 degree cut on the top edge. used like batten bar these days. This roof I seen used the wood blocking on the deck same height as insulation rubber field sheet laid over and continuous up the wall the simplex nailed every 6"-8" and stripped in with 6" uncured. 80% of the 153,600 square foot still holding with a nice 90 degree at the angle change. 

Carlisle's old black plastic bar was absolute junk. Seamed like it would melt and the screw head would just pass right through it.

Yes, Good Years rail system had issues. compared to other base tie-ins in its day it seamed like a good idea at the time.
Pretty sure there is a nationwide private label roofing company that still uses a similar version of that rail system, but they only use it for the perimeter edge. 

Back in the old days there were all sorts attachment methods of systems coming out. I do not remember the names of them, but there were a few variations of button cap/satellite systems, there are still a lot of those systems in place. There was a track system that the membrane would be pushed into with a vinyl strip on top to hold it in place. that systems seamed like it would have worked well. but the membrane failed at the edge on each side were it was pulled tight. It started with small dry rotted looking cracks.

I guess GAF almost bought Firestone just a few months back. That would have been interesting. Kind of like K-Mart buying Sears a few years ago. You would think it would be the other way around.


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## 1985gt

llmotoll said:


> Yes the 2 x 4 lumber with a 45 degree cut on the top edge. used like batten bar these days. This roof I seen used the wood blocking on the deck same height as insulation rubber field sheet laid over and continuous up the wall the simplex nailed every 6"-8" and stripped in with 6" uncured. 80% of the 153,600 square foot still holding with a nice 90 degree at the angle change.


Yeah the wood seem to work well. In a lot of cases I think it works better then 2" plates or anchor bar.




llmotoll said:


> Carlisle's old black plastic bar was absolute junk. Seamed like it would melt and the screw head would just pass right through it.


Yeah it didn't seem to last very long. Although a lot of them I have seen are on ballasted systems and once the bar got free it was game over for the rest of the roof in short time. Fully adhered always seem to hold up better for obvious reasons. 




llmotoll said:


> Yes, Good Years rail system had issues. compared to other base tie-ins in its day it seamed like a good idea at the time.
> Pretty sure there is a nationwide private label roofing company that still uses a similar version of that rail system, but they only use it for the perimeter edge.


Even on the perimeter edge it doesn't seem to hold up well, but then again a lot of ballast roofs were being installed at the time. We have one of the what was Good Year plants here, we do a lot of the maintenance work on the roofs, so between that and the rest of our town we've seen a fair share of the PE rails for sure.



llmotoll said:


> Back in the old days there were all sorts attachment methods of systems coming out. I do not remember the names of them, but there were a few variations of button cap/satellite systems, there are still a lot of those systems in place. There was a track system that the membrane would be pushed into with a vinyl strip on top to hold it in place. that systems seamed like it would have worked well. but the membrane failed at the edge on each side were it was pulled tight. It started with small dry rotted looking cracks.



It did work well, until the membrane moved to much and started tear holes in the corners of the locks. We have a Mall here that a lot of the roofs had that system, what a PITA to find leaks, it got to a point where we would caulk around them and cover them with 9" uncured. This place was all gyp decks or concrete or metal with light weight insulated concrete poured over the top. So leaks can be challenging anyway. This was the only building I have seen that system used. I know there was other styles. I've attached a picture of the ones used in this case.



llmotoll said:


> I guess GAF almost bought Firestone just a few months back. That would have been interesting. Kind of like K-Mart buying Sears a few years ago. You would think it would be the other way around.


Ironically enough I had heard that Firestone use to sell EPDM to GAF year and years ago, there was fall out over a price increase of the insulation GAF provided to Firestone. Not sure how true the story is but rather ironic none the less.


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