# Drip edge



## user182

How do you guys in Chicago do your drip edge?

I’ve heard you guys talk about gutter apron, is that custom made?

Here in Detroit it’s standard to put new drip edge on all edges.

I use large face drip edge.

If the house already has drip edge we rip it off and install new.

Prospects expect it to be installed because that’s what the contractors are telling them is included. If I didn’t include it in my estimate the homeowner would think that I am leaving something out that should be included.


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## Ed the Roofer

Gutter Apron drip edge is a different style of aluminum sheet metal with a pitch already bent into the roof deck portion and a slightly larger face that extends down into the gutter or onto the fascia boards.

Gable edge drip edge metal, which is commonly called O.D.E., for Overhanging Drip Edge, is what too many guys use for the Gutter Apron, which it was not designed for. The top portion is bent at a 90* with a 3/8" 180* tight hem extending out past the fascia board.

When you use the the ODE for the eave portions, the face automatically rises due to the flat 180* portion being forced to go up the pitched roof angle.

Now, in many occasions, the front face of the ODE being used for the Gutter Apron, does not extend into the gutter like it should.

On the Gable Edge ODE, I install the lowest piece first, but take a screw driver or rigid putty knife and open the 180* hem. Then I take my tin snips and insert the exposed portion of the second piece of ODE, but just the Face portion exposed on the fascia, behind the lower piece of ODE sheet metal. 

By doing that, when you look up the side edge of the sloped roof, you do not see any seams.

Now, for the portion that goes on the decking, I install the second piece on Top of the lower portion of ODE. This is to allow the moisture to properly roll down, without getting Under the previous piece of ODE. 

Most guys do not include the finishing touches of the installation of the sheet metal ODE n their roofing scope of the proposal and installation process.

I do, even though it adds a couple of hundred bucks to each job, but it is just one more way to differentiate my company's skills from the other Riff-Raff.

Now, Grumpy does NOT install the ODE typically, but I do not consider him to be included in the Riff-Raff comment. But, he has his own personal reasons for doing it otherwise.

Ed


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## tomstruble

i think the use of the heavyer gauge is important when using roof edging the stuff in the box stores is usually too thin


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## user182

Ed the Roofer said:


> Gutter Apron drip edge is a different style of aluminum sheet metal with a pitch already bent into the roof deck portion and a slightly larger face that extends down into the gutter or onto the fascia boards.
> 
> Gable edge drip edge metal, which is commonly called O.D.E., for Overhanging Drip Edge, is what too many guys use for the Gutter Apron, which it was not designed for. The top portion is bent at a 90* with a 3/8" 180* tight hem extending out past the fascia board.
> 
> When you use the the ODE for the eave portions, the face automatically rises due to the flat 180* portion being forced to go up the pitched roof angle.
> 
> Now, in many occasions, the front face of the ODE being used for the Gutter Apron, does not extend into the gutter like it should.
> 
> On the Gable Edge ODE, I install the lowest piece first, but take a screw driver or rigid putty knife and open the 180* hem. Then I take my tin snips and insert the exposed portion of the second piece of ODE, but just the Face portion exposed on the fascia, behind the lower piece of ODE sheet metal.
> 
> By doing that, when you look up the side edge of the sloped roof, you do not see any seams.
> 
> Now, for the portion that goes on the decking, I install the second piece on Top of the lower portion of ODE. This is to allow the moisture to properly roll down, without getting Under the previous piece of ODE.
> 
> Most guys do not include the finishing touches of the installation of the sheet metal ODE n their roofing scope of the proposal and installation process.
> 
> I do, even though it adds a couple of hundred bucks to each job, but it is just one more way to differentiate my company's skills from the other Riff-Raff.
> 
> Now, Grumpy does NOT install the ODE typically, but I do not consider him to be included in the Riff-Raff comment. But, he has his own personal reasons for doing it otherwise.
> 
> Ed


Do you make that gutter apron yourself or do you buy it.

Can you post a picture of it?


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## Grumpy

My reasons for not drip edging the bagles, mmmm bagles, Erm I digress... My reason for not drip edging gables is simply the fact that in my experience I see very little problem with wind driven rain or wind uplift at the gables. It's hard enough being 20-50% higher than the low bidder already, adding another $500 for what ever reason is a hard thing to do, especially since I don't see the purpose. 

I do install a starter/bleeder course up the gables/rakes which I don't think you MI guys are accustomed to doing. I had hired a guy from Michigan who found it odd we didn't drip edge the gables rakes but did install a starter course on the gables/rakes.

Gutter apron has a compeltely different profile than drip edge. If I were in the office I would send you a CAD drawing of each. A gutter apron is a simple L shaped metal, not F shaped, with aprox 3" under the shingles and aprox 2" on the face. Sometimes it is customer but only on very long gutter runs where a 2" face just isn't enough, while still giving the gutter good pitch. Gutter apron is something that can be bought anywhere even home depot and lowes. FYI drip edge can be bought int he same places. Another thing, at my gutter supplier I can get ANY color gutter apron, but only some color drip edge.

I will however install drip edge on a drip line/gutter line, when a gutter is not installed. There have been some garages with no gutters and some real high end homes in Riverwoods IL with 3' or 4' overhangs and no gutters. I then install the ODE to extend the shingles a little extra and protect the fascia. I will also install ODE when I am doing a plywood job, because the plywood edge needs to be protected from the elements. I have seen alot of jobs with the roof being 10-15 years old, plywood job in the past, and the entire gables are rotted out. It adds a few hundred to the job costs but is a necessity on those plywood jobs.


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## Grumpy

http://rollex.com/products/brochures click on the 2009 buyers guide.

Look at page number 15, if you are looking at page numbers. Or int he pDF it says page 16, since the front cover is counted as a page in Adobe Reader. The first item is a gutter apron, the 2nd is a drip edge. They show various styles of drip edge.


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## user182

Grumpy said:


> My reasons for not drip edging the bagles, mmmm bagles, Erm I digress... My reason for not drip edging gables is simply the fact that in my experience I see very little problem with wind driven rain or wind uplift at the gables. It's hard enough being 20-50% higher than the low bidder already, adding another $500 for what ever reason is a hard thing to do, especially since I don't see the purpose.
> 
> I do install a starter/bleeder course up the gables/rakes which I don't think you MI guys are accustomed to doing. I had hired a guy from Michigan who found it odd we didn't drip edge the gables rakes but did install a starter course on the gables/rakes.
> 
> Gutter apron has a compeltely different profile than drip edge. If I were in the office I would send you a CAD drawing of each. A gutter apron is a simple L shaped metal, not F shaped, with aprox 3" under the shingles and aprox 2" on the face. Sometimes it is customer but only on very long gutter runs where a 2" face just isn't enough, while still giving the gutter good pitch. Gutter apron is something that can be bought anywhere even home depot and lowes. FYI drip edge can be bought int he same places. Another thing, at my gutter supplier I can get ANY color gutter apron, but only some color drip edge.
> 
> I will however install drip edge on a drip line/gutter line, when a gutter is not installed. There have been some garages with no gutters and some real high end homes in Riverwoods IL with 3' or 4' overhangs and no gutters. I then install the ODE to extend the shingles a little extra and protect the fascia. I will also install ODE when I am doing a plywood job, because the plywood edge needs to be protected from the elements. I have seen alot of jobs with the roof being 10-15 years old, plywood job in the past, and the entire gables are rotted out. It adds a few hundred to the job costs but is a necessity on those plywood jobs.


I’ll ask my supplier about gutter apron. I’ve never seen it in stock around here. It looks like flashing we would use on a mansard roof at the point where the pitch changes.

Drip has become the standard around here. This has developed over the years. Contractors convinced the owner that they should have it.

I used to install drip edge with a 1” face and then prospects acted like I was offering an inferior product because someone else offered one with a 1 ½” face. 

They also convinced them that the drip edge should be replaced. It’s commonplace to replace it around here. If I sent a crew out to job and told them to leave the drip edge in place they would probably forget and rip it off anyway.

However I do think it is a waste of money and only drives the price up.


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## Grumpy

I'd ice shield the gables and rake before I'd drip edge, and I don't ice shield gables nor rakes. In my experience I don't see them being a problem so have never had the need for this added protection. IMO better to focus on the areas that are known to be problems first, and the rest is gravy. It's not like I refuse to install drip edge, I just don't always promote it.

And yes you can probably use the gutter apron as a gambrel slope change transition but we prefer to bend our own with a larger face, a hem and a compression kick-in at the edge.


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## tomstruble

everybody has their own opinion about thing but i kind of think sad when traditional techniques are abandoned,i think that starts the ball rolling on what else to skip
and believe me i have the utmost respect for everyone's opinion on here:thumbup: so please, this is just my humble opinion :notworthy:


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## Grumpy

You say traditional techniques, but I will tell you I have torn off roofs as old as 100 years and almost never do I see a drip edge. 

I've torn off all types from slate to shingles, to cedar, to metal... Metal may be the only roof with a gable/rake flashing that is seen on a consistant basis, and that's because it's needed for a termination. I've torn off very high end homes. I have torn off working class homes. I have torn off every architectural style. If I sit back and think, I think I can count the number of homes that had drip edge using both hands.


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## tomstruble

thanks grumpy i appreciate the post

ive been working on a job its an estate in upstate n.y slate slate roof has leadcoated edging, wood roofs have copper,which i belive at the time were industry standards


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## Ed the Roofer

Every single Cedar Shingle job with multi-layers of asphalt pn top at least has a galvanized J-Channed Re-Roof Edge Metal on the eave cedar.

Ed


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## user182

I’m not saying I would stop using it, but if it’s already on why tear it off?

On almost all of the home around here the builders installed drip edge on the bottom edge but not on the rakes. They installed a starter shingle on the rakes.

It has become standard around here to rip off the drip edge on the eave edge and install new drip edge with an 1.5 inch face.

I brought this up for 2 reasons. If the drip edge is already there why should I add in the cost to replace it?

OR if installing gutter apron is better than drip edge maybe I should switch to gutter apron.

Many of the gutter installation I see around here have the gutter on a big angle for drainage. I think that would require custom made gutter apron or it would not extend into the gutter in some places.


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## tomstruble

if the edge is an unpainted copper and is in good condition i would absolutly say keep it but if its painted steel or aluminum its probably a good time to replace it


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## Grumpy

Ed the Roofer said:


> Every single Cedar Shingle job with multi-layers of asphalt pn top at least has a galvanized J-Channed Re-Roof Edge Metal on the eave cedar.
> 
> Ed


 I disagree Ed. Those were the 100 year old roofs I was discussing above. We do alot of these type jobs, at least a couple each year, in Evanston, Oak Park and older parts of chicago.


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## Grumpy

Jack The Roofer said:


> I’m not saying I would stop using it, but if it’s already on why tear it off?
> 
> On almost all of the home around here the builders installed drip edge on the bottom edge but not on the rakes. They installed a starter shingle on the rakes.
> 
> It has become standard around here to rip off the drip edge on the eave edge and install new drip edge with an 1.5 inch face.
> 
> I brought this up for 2 reasons. If the drip edge is already there why should I add in the cost to replace it?
> 
> OR if installing gutter apron is better than drip edge maybe I should switch to gutter apron.
> 
> Many of the gutter installation I see around here have the gutter on a big angle for drainage. I think that would require custom made gutter apron or it would not extend into the gutter in some places.


 Minimum slope for gutter is 1/4" per 10'. Typically we will pitch it greater than that however, and yes on long runs the end piece may need to be a custom flashing. We also don't like runs longer than 35' without a downspout.


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## MJW

I'll make some gutter apron if I have to, but a good steel wide face roof edge does work just as well. We use drip edge on everything and run starters on eaves and gables. The drip edge makes the edge stronger, but it also keeps the fascia on. lol

Never use Rollex aluminum roof edge. It is almost useless. It bends and bows very bad. I think I could make something much stronger with brake aluminum.

Do you guys still have alot of wood fascias or what?


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## Interloc

I'd say they are more cosmetic on gables unless it was a re-sheet.IMO


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## Ed the Roofer

Grumpy said:


> Minimum slope for gutter is 1/4" per 10'. Typically we will pitch it greater than that however, and yes on long runs the end piece may need to be a custom flashing. We also don't like runs longer than 35' without a downspout.


You can go 40 feet for each 2" x 3" Downspout according to SMACNA, so I would presume 80 feet for each 3" x 4" Oversized Downspout.

Ed


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## Grumpy

Always err on the side of caution ed. I too read Smacna's book a few years back. 35' seems to work a little bit better and on the average home doesn't cause comsmetic worries. Even though an over sized downspout is twice the size, I wouldn't double the run. 80' is a long run for garbage and crap to build up in the gutter.


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## tomstruble

how long a run do you do before you start to consider expansion?


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## OUTLAW

I have been told that a 2"x3" downspout will support 900 sq.ft of roof in a downpour.
And a 3"x4" will support 2700 sf ft.
And either one should not be placed over 40'


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## Ed the Roofer

Grumpy said:


> Always err on the side of caution ed. I too read Smacna's book a few years back. 35' seems to work a little bit better and on the average home doesn't cause comsmetic worries. Even though an over sized downspout is twice the size, I wouldn't double the run. 80' is a long run for garbage and crap to build up in the gutter.


I always quote them for multiple downspouts when they reach 40 feet anyways.

Also, if there are several inside or outside corners.

Where do I want the water to wind up?

Ed


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## Grumpy

OUTLAW said:


> I have been told that a 2"x3" downspout will support 900 sq.ft of roof in a downpour.
> And a 3"x4" will support 2700 sf ft.
> And either one should not be placed over 40'


 IMO there are too many variables to throw a per square foot variable and call it a day. How steep is the roof? How many trees? How many corners and valleys? What type of roof?

I definetly would think 900' would be a strech.


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## Grumpy

tomstruble said:


> how long a run do you do before you start to consider expansion?


 I think I once read 80' on aluminum gutter. But I have to check that out, it may have been 60'. Not often we have straight runs longer than 59'.


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## user182

Do you have to notch the gutter apron around the gutter spikes?

Do you feel that installing gutter apron instead of drip edge would give me a selling advantage because no one else around here is doing it?


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## Grumpy

We don't use spikes. We use hidden hangers. Spike and ferruls fall out. I'm suprised you still use spike out North by you... However on the jobs where we tear off old spike gutters, it's nailed right through the flashing. 

Why would you notch? The flashing is there to protect the fascia against ice backup. Notching it will give the ice a place to go.


I always try to be different and be the black sheep in a good way. Showing the 1" drip edge vs the 2" gutter apron and explaining the difference is a great way to stand out. Further more ask them... "Why do you think it's called a gutter apron? The gutter apron is intended to be installed when installing a gutter and the drip edge when no gutter is installed. Some guys may want to install the drip edge, maybe cause that's the way their daddy showed them, but it simply is not the right way of doing it and they daddy showed them wrong. I want to do the job right no matter what, and the best part is it doesn't even cost you any more to do it right in this case, than it does to do it wrong with the drip edge." 

Free upgrade?! Cha-Ching!


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## user182

Grumpy said:


> We don't use spikes. We use hidden hangers. Spike and ferruls fall out. I'm suprised you still use spike out North by you... However on the jobs where we tear off old spike gutters, it's nailed right through the flashing.
> 
> Why would you notch? The flashing is there to protect the fascia against ice backup. Notching it will give the ice a place to go.
> 
> 
> I always try to be different and be the black sheep in a good way. Showing the 1" drip edge vs the 2" gutter apron and explaining the difference is a great way to stand out. Further more ask them... "Why do you think it's called a gutter apron? The gutter apron is intended to be installed when installing a gutter and the drip edge when no gutter is installed. Some guys may want to install the drip edge, maybe cause that's the way their daddy showed them, but it simply is not the right way of doing it and they daddy showed them wrong. I want to do the job right no matter what, and the best part is it doesn't even cost you any more to do it right in this case, than it does to do it wrong with the drip edge."
> 
> Free upgrade?! Cha-Ching!


When I install new gutters I always use screw type hangers. 

I am assuming that you install gutter apron on every job and frequently you will have existing gutters in place. It seams like the gutter apron would extend into the gutter.

Whether the gutter is secured by nails or hangers you would still have to cut it or notch it because the gutter spikes would keep it from going down all the way. 

Do you have a picture you can post of a completed installation?


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## Grumpy

You do not need to cut or notch it. The gutter is installed with some temporary nails. Then the flashing is installed which will go under the shingles and cover the back of the gutter. Then the hangers will be installed, hooked onto the front lip of the gutter which will press against the flashing, and the flashing will press against the gutter's back. Then a fastener will be installed in the hanger to squeeze the flashign tight against the gutter. Preferrably that fastener will be spaced evenly with the rafter tails so that the fastener penetrates through the flashing, gutter, fascia board, and into the rafter tail. 


No I do not install gutter apron on every job, only the jobs we are installing gutters. Or else I adhere my ice shield to the existing flashing. I went to look at a job today where there is no flashing, nor drip edge. If you stand at the bottom of the hosue and look upwards you can see light between the back of the gutter and face of the fascia. No gutter flashing. So the cure, make sure to install a few fasteners to hold the gutter tight, remove all brackets, install the flashing as described above, install the new brackets as described above, problem solved. So the short answer is no the apron does not need to be notched, the brackets must be removed before the flashing/apron is installed.


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## user182

Grumpy said:


> You do not need to cut or notch it. The gutter is installed with some temporary nails. Then the flashing is installed which will go under the shingles and cover the back of the gutter. Then the hangers will be installed, hooked onto the front lip of the gutter which will press against the flashing, and the flashing will press against the gutter's back. Then a fastener will be installed in the hanger to squeeze the flashign tight against the gutter. Preferrably that fastener will be spaced evenly with the rafter tails so that the fastener penetrates through the flashing, gutter, fascia board, and into the rafter tail.
> 
> 
> No I do not install gutter apron on every job, only the jobs we are installing gutters. Or else I adhere my ice shield to the existing flashing. I went to look at a job today where there is no flashing, nor drip edge. If you stand at the bottom of the hosue and look upwards you can see light between the back of the gutter and face of the fascia. No gutter flashing. So the cure, make sure to install a few fasteners to hold the gutter tight, remove all brackets, install the flashing as described above, install the new brackets as described above, problem solved. So the short answer is no the apron does not need to be notched, the brackets must be removed before the flashing/apron is installed.


I guess what you are saying is that if the job has existing gutters you will remove the fasteners, then install the apron and secure the gutter with hangers. Right?

You’re not installing new gutters with every job, right?


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## markore

*Drip edge profiles when where and why*

Grumpy,
Thank you for the rollex link. They have reorganized their site, so the new link is: 
http://rollex.com/products/roofing-accessories

I have spoken to a gutter contractor who drew me a picture of the trim they use gable ends and the profile most closely resembled the C channel from the rollex catalog.

I am an electrical contractor but often end up the site forman for the GC and am trying to settle on a best practice plan for areas that will receive gutters, enclosed gutters like k-guard or leafguard, and areas with no gutters like gable rakes.

There is not a lot of information on lap detail when transitioning between different styles of edge on corners. The discussion on this page has been some of the best advice I have seen out there. Thanks very much everyone who has contributed.


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