# Why don't all roofing companies negotiate with insurance companies?



## insuranceroofer

If a roofing company understands how to get the most out of insurance companies, they almost always make more than companies that bid jobs.

Wouldn't it make sense for all roofing companies during a storm to negotiate with insurance companies instead of giving bids?

If companies did not give bids, then you wouldn't have to play the bid game.


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## Grumpy

Let's see? Oh because I have morals. Because I have a conscience and I want to be able to sleep at night. 


The more insurance storm chasing scum bags in a forum, the lower the quality of the forum.


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## insuranceroofer

Grumpy said:


> Let's see? Oh because I have morals. Because I have a conscience and I want to be able to sleep at night.
> 
> 
> The more insurance storm chasing scum bags in a forum, the lower the quality of the forum.


Have morals? What do you mean? I think the people who make pennies on a roof have no business sense and if you have no business sense how is that really helping your customers? If your profit is too low, you are going to be constantly struggling. Don't you want to make alot of money? Don't you believe you are worth a higher price? I just don't understand why you would say it is not moral. Your in the roofing business not charity. Roofing takes alot of work, I mean alot of work. Do you realize with all the work you put into roofing that if you don't charge alot that you are wasting your time, because you could go work in another business and make more.


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## Grumpy

Go chase a storm. 

Just because the insurance companies don't sign our checks doesn't mean we make pennies for profit. Sure there are plenty of guys out there that don't understand business and shouldn't be running a business, but in my opinion a hail chasing scum bag also shouldn't be in business. BOTH the low baller and the storm chaser are bottom of the barrell scum in my opinion.


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## insuranceroofer

Grumpy said:


> Go chase a storm.
> 
> Just because the insurance companies don't sign our checks doesn't mean we make pennies for profit. Sure there are plenty of guys out there that don't understand business and shouldn't be running a business, but in my opinion a hail chasing scum bag also shouldn't be in business. BOTH the low baller and the storm chaser are bottom of the barrell scum in my opinion.


 
Explain to me why a storm chaser who requires their customers to pay their deductible and properly installs and warranties their work a scum bag?

Do you think insurance companies are stupid and pay a roofer 50,000 for a 10,000 roofing job? Do you think that making enough profit to cover sales commissions, office staff, insurance, permits, office expenses, foremans salary is bad? Do you think all insurance adjusters are fair and always make the right decision when determining hell damage? Insurance only roofers, have just found an easier way to convince people to not take a chance on low ballers.

What about the roofers who never explain to the homeowners that they need to send their invoice in to receive their depreciation check from the insurance company? How is that helping the customer?


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## Malachi

I'm thinking about setting up a storm chasing crew. Not quite sure how to go about and get it up and running though. I need more quality people. I know there is alot of good money to be made.


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## jrolandconstruction

*Scum?*

I feel someone who bashes another guy for how he makes a living is scum!!! You do it your way and we can do it our way. I've have given estimates til I was blue in the face but I prefer to let the insurance tell me what they will pay. This way the customer gets a new roof for $500 or $1000, they are happy and so am I.


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## Grumpy

LOL You let someone else tell you what your services are worth and what you should earn? That's a friggin joke man, read a business book.


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## jrolandconstruction

*You need to read a book!!!*

I show up with the same estimate as the adjuster, he/she does not tell me what my work is worth. It's called being on top of my game, you should try it. You might not be so grumpy because you will make more money!!! Anyways, if I'm not in your neighborhood, what does it matter how I help out my customers? You should be thankful I'm not in your neighborhood or you might go out of business due to no work!!!


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## jrolandconstruction

*I tell you what,*

you keep doing your free quotes at $160 to $180 a square and get a few here and there, and I will keep working with insurance companies and get $210 to $250 a square and get a lot more work. Maybe instead of reading a business book, I should write a business book so guys like you can stay in business!!


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## Grumpy

jrolandconstruction said:


> you keep doing your free quotes at $160 to $180 a square and get a few here and there, and I will keep working with insurance companies and get $210 to $250 a square and get a lot more work. Maybe instead of reading a business book, I should write a business book so guys like you can stay in business!!


Double that $160-180 and we're just getting started. I charge more than the insurance is willing to pay. I won't get out of bed for $250. That's why I don't do insurance work. 

ROFLMFAO ... 210-250... and people wonder why I hate storm chasers? They comeinto town and kill the market with their $210-250 a square. LOL You're charging $250 and think you are being fairly compensated?! What do you pay your employees, $12 an hour? Do you even have workers comp? How do you make money at $210? Seriously.

Now open your eyes and charge what a legitimate roofing company deserves to charge not what a greedy corporate insurance company thinks you are worth.


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## Grumpy

Dude, you made my day! I was going to ignore you because you are a storm chaser, but you're just too funny.

But I gotta go now. I am going to close a sale on a job that has nothing to do with insurance. Selling a lifetime Solaris shingle for $450 a square and 80 mil PVC for $420. It's a $40,000 job.


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## buildpinnacle

What do you think of the Solaris, Grump? One of my suppliers is really pushing Certainteed down our throats and they have just never had a good foothold in this market.


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## Grumpy

Well to be honest the solaris are nothing more than the Lifetime/50 year landmarks with reflective granuals. They cost more than the Life time landmarks too. I hear the granuals are reflective because they go through an additional glazing/coating step. I also think marketing is involved with the whole tax credit thing.

I find that on the standard typical house the home owner gets a free upgrade to a life time shingle. What I mean is $1,500 is typically the cost difference between the 30 year landmark and the solaris. So they pony up the bucks upfront and then get it back on their tax return.

It kind of makes sense when you look at it like that, but most people don't. furthermore if you have bought any appliances or windows you may already be maxed out ont he neergy rebate so the roof might not be worth it. In either regard the solaris is certainly a good product.

This is going to be a kick butt job and I'll post pics of the Solaris once complete.


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## Malachi

jrolandconstruction said:


> you keep doing your free quotes at $160 to $180 a square and get a few here and there, and I will keep working with insurance companies and get $210 to $250 a square and get a lot more work. Maybe instead of reading a business book, I should write a business book so guys like you can stay in business!!


 Wow that's all you get a square? What market are you in? I get more than that and I don't even deal with insurance company's. The insurance company's here are doing work for 325-350 a square.


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## Grumpy

Malachi said:


> Wow that's all you get a square? What market are you in? I get more than that and I don't even deal with insurance company's. The insurance company's here are doing work for 325-350 a square.


 I can't wait for the book he promised to write!!! :whistling:


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## ctroofer0930

I am a "storm chaser" who happens to LIVE in the area I support. I have never left the state. TWO of my neighbors are getting NEW SLATE ROOFS that were beat to smithereens by hail. The insurance company came in LOW on both estimates, of course, not wanting to shell out the money. Bottom line is this: we only do what the insurance company SAYS we can do. Without us on-site during the adjustment, the insurance folks tend to ignore the obvious and cut checks for 50% of the damage. I can show you docs, "Grumpy" (guess the name says it all), to validate. It is then up to us to have a re-inspect to have a new set of eyes on the obvious. Most of the adjusters here have never seen damage to slate before. Heck, even the "engineers" they send out have only been on one or two!!!!

By the way, we can't FORCE insurance companies to pay for damage that does not exist. And how are we scumbags, showing homeowners that their roofs have damage that can impact the interior of their homes, VOID THEIR WARRANTIES (check it out) and decrease the value of their properties??? Not to mention that we spend an average of 20 hours per job in paperwork alone!!!!

Scumbags??? Ask the hundreds of homeowners with new, sound roofs if we are scumbags.

Excuse me, I have to go cash my $12,000 commission check for that slate roof we just installed.


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## leakfree

ctroofer0930
Your confusing me. 
If you live in the area that you support how can you also be a storm chaser? 
Do you really spend 20 hours in paperwork alone per job? My family would starve at that rate. 
But hey, along as it works for you. :thumbup:


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## RooferJim

storm chasers in conneticut ??? seems odd, never seen them in Mass.


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## cavesrus

Grumpy i stand with you 110 %. One i do insurance work and typical have to go back to ins. for more cash. But no worries and never takes 20 hour ROFLMAO.

only one company name i can say just folded

American Shingle. Took over 4000 peoples ACV that i was heard of. i know of at least 400 + in the KC metro area alone. I have olny had like 30 calls so far to do the work they screwed people out of. 

2nd you want to run a biz stay in one area dont chase a storm and i know that adjusters pay for roofs that dont need it all the time. 90 % dont know hail dmaage to save there life. they cave to keep the customer happy. 

just my 2 cents. 

i advertise and have a reputations. 

Just FYI american shingle just are already back in biz in my area under a new name. BAH!!!!!!!!!!!! Scum bags


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## dougger222

I negotiate every insurance job I do. Quite often adjusters miss things including whole sections of roofs! In most cases they pay several thousand additional to what the original adjuster wrote. One a couple years ago comes to mind. Adjuster wrote $6,900 and paid $15,500. Had one this year at $28,000 and paid $38,000, no questions asked. Of course what helped was the owner was tied to a high level insurance personal, and it was insured for a couple million.

Another huge thing to do when doing insurance work is to inspect the entire property for damages. Most adjusters will only look at a roof if it's a hail claim but there could be damage to the siding, windows, and decking. Good adjusters start on the ground and inspect each elevation.

Localy there's a pretty big spread from insurance work and non insurance work. That being said I jump on any and all insurance leads. With one crew have done hundreds of insurance claims since 2006 and plan to continue if weather permits! The big difference between me and my competition is we don't advertise and go door to door. We get all the leads we need from past customers and insurance personal.

I feel even a lot of storm chasers leave a lot of money on the table. Most often they try to get in and do jobs asap. Without proper time and negotiations they settle off the adjusters scope and price.

Have only seen a couple adjuster who write exact roof estimates.

Also understand totaly were Thomas's point of view is. It takes a certain type of person to be able to bow down to some adjusters and take critisism easily. This is why storm work is not for every contractor. Also you have to have a sizable bank roll to finance insurance jobs. Anybody who does insurance work knows about the waiting game. Heck my builders pay a lot faster than insurance! That being said if you make more doing out of pocket jobs and have an easier time at it you don't need to bother yourself with insurance work. I personaly know of no local contractors who charge more than Xactimate on roofs. Windows and siding though that's another story!

It just so happens MN has been hit with so much storm damage over the past few years that 3/4 of my tear offs are insurance paid. From 06-08 it was 95%. This year however it's been about 60-65% insurance. So far this year have done more new construction than the past 4 years combined. Nice to have something to do on potential rain days.


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## TXRoofing

I have been reading this and Grumpy, I am offended that you would even think about stereotyping "most" roofers that charge insurance proceeds. Let me explain....
You are in Illinois, so listen to how we (roofers in Texas) HAVE to get roofing jobs. In this ecomony, NO ONE is just calling roofers to come out and bid on a roof replacement so insurance is the ONLY way us in the south get work.
I am an honest, rule following roofer... that said, I follow the insurance rules, and I educate EVERY homeowner about the process including the depreciation release and how if my invoice doesnt match the estimate from the adjuster, their depreciation check is cut down to my price minus the deductible, SO who in their right mind wouldnt charge what the insurance company said they WILL pay?? 
Once I tell the customer these things, they dont even get bids, they explain how helpfull i was and they LOVE me!! I never ever lose a contract, why?? Because I am a very detailed, honest and reliable roofer that EARNS the respect of the homeowner by showing experience, quality and PERFECT referencesas well as a A+ BBB Rating! 

So, I DO chase local storms in my area and am amazing at it, I dont discount my service to try and beat out some other lower quality, cheap labor roofer who is trying to get work by lowering prices and not tell the customer about depreciation.

So to sum it up, SCUM is a roofing company willing to take less that what is OFFERED in order to beat out another reputable, insured, and warrantied roofing company.
Not to mention that when they do this, all they do is de-value our services as a whole!!

My 2 cents....


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## RooferJim

I agree TeX, you cant paint everyone with a broad brush. It is a different world in some states.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## Grumpy

You are right, sterotyping is wrong, but I have not met a storm chaser in real life that didn't fit the sterotype. Everyone on the internet can be what ever they want to be, it's imaginary life... Funny how every storm chaser online claims to be reputable, but I've never met one. Is this a fluke?


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## insuranceroofer

Grumpy said:


> You are right, sterotyping is wrong, but I have not met a storm chaser in real life that didn't fit the sterotype. Everyone on the internet can be what ever they want to be, it's imaginary life... Funny how every storm chaser online claims to be reputable, but I've never met one. Is this a fluke?


What would you consider reputable?


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## insuranceroofer

Grumpy said:


> Dude, you made my day! I was going to ignore you because you are a storm chaser, but you're just too funny.
> 
> But I gotta go now. I am going to close a sale on a job that has nothing to do with insurance. Selling a lifetime Solaris shingle for $450 a square and 80 mil PVC for $420. It's a $40,000 job.


I've gotten more per square for a 3-tab.


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## RooferJim

that is low price. 80 mil pvc ? thats more like $10. per sq foot


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## Grumpy

80 mil PVC costs $1 per square foot for the membrane. 

$1,000 a square installed?


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## RooferJim

For the whole system labor included thats about right. 2 " iso on that particular job. 50 mil IB we usually in the range of 6.00 to 8.00 per square foot installed roughly give or take. could be a little less for a large wide open job .

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## Grumpy

Jim you are making assumptions that atre not accurate, which is what I assumed from your price guesstimation. 

It's a cold deck design with vents, no ISO. If I were doing ISO I would have been in the same range as you.


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## dougger222

I'm with Thomas on this one. I also have never met an "honest" storm chaser. Honest, reputable, reliable, trust worthy=all the same. None of which are words to describe a storm chaser. 

Been in this game for 5 years now have have seen so many storm chasers come and go. Many of them who go actualy were forced to leave by license revocation. Funny thing is next year they just go under a new name. Also have seen many salesman start there own storm chasing companies.

I've done hundreds and hundreds of good paying insurnace claims (Minneapolis,MN/Xactimate price list) and not one was landed by door to door, phone, etc. Every one is word of mouth. Heck I haven't advertised in over two years and when I did it was just home owners looking for the lowest bidder.

Since 06 the first year doing storm work every year has gotten bigger and better. This year have done a fair share with quite a few on the books. Funny thing is none are for hail or wind this year...

Speaking of the flat roofing. Did a shingle addition a few years ago on a commercial building that another company did the flat roofing. Found it they got $1,000 a square new to install TPO which IMO looked like absolute garbage.


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## cavesrus

I agree with grumpy storm chaser is low end and doesn't know how bad he hurts the market. Every time one. Closes it doors 4 will spawn out of it. They lie cheat etc. If you only rely on storm work and go door to door promising the world then u r storm chaser. If u say sign blank contract ur SC. If u say I will do for xmate them u r SC. Have your set profit and educate customer not try and get every penny from INS.


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## dougger222

It's a lot easier negotiating a maxed out Xactimate estimate with an office adjuster or field adjuster than trying to negotiate another estimate, unless of course that estimate is less than Xactimate. If the estimate is more than the adjuster they want to know why line item by line item. 

MSB, pays garbage. Simsol pays really good but only know one adjuster who uses it.

I use Xactimate on every insurance claim so that makes me a Storm Chaser? LOL!!! I want to play on a level playing field and after a hail storm moves through and we get booked for a year or so it takes enough time negotiating maxed out Xactimate estimates. Punching up the estimate is Xactimate couldn't be easier. It takes me a lot more time to punch up the home owners scope than the insurance companies scope. The last thing I want to do is convince every adjuster I need more than Xactimate which is an industry standard for my area (Minneapolis, MN). It's updated monthly. How many of your guys estimates get upated by the press of a button on the first of every month?

Every large insurance restoration company in MN in business for several generations making a lot of money use Xactimate. 

If you can't afford to buy Xactimate that's another story... The going rate for non insurance work in my area today is $300 a square easy one layer walker, TOPS. That same roof in Xactimate is $100+ a square more. If I go around handing out bids in Xactimate to non insurance jobs I'll not only waste a lot of time but also get laughed at to my face.

Fine, I have Xactimate and know how to use it. That makes me a storm chaser? Funny thing is never left my work area to do insurance work and never gone door to door, or hired a third party to generate leads. For the past 12 years 99% of work is word of mouth. Used to waste money in the phone book.

The biggest trick is knowing how to deal with the insurane companies. This you just can't learn overnight and some may never learn it. Luckily the person who first taught me did about $2,000,000 a year in insurance work as an estimator. 15-20 jobs running at once... He made it look easy!

I don't know many roofing contractors getting $400+ a square for easy one layer tear offs in the Midwest outside of insurance work. After buying quality materials, permit, and dump fee your at about $250 a square labor. 30 squares at $250 a square labor takes my 5 person crew a day to do. How can you justify more than $7,500 in a day??? When I first got into roofing I worked my but off to make $1,000 in a day.

Now I have done a few insurance jobs that it didn't seem to matter the estimate price they paid it. This occures maybe 1 out of every 50 claims or so. That being said good luck doing insurance work without the right software.

To compare a price on Xactimate fax me a detailed diagram with a full list of line items and I'll punch one up and see how far off it is. PM me if interested. Again I need a really detailed diagram...


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## insuranceroofer

I've been selling roofs for the last 25 years. I have sold for sorry companies who don't do insurance work. I have sold for sorry companies that do insurance work.

I have worked for companies who chase storms who suck and I have worked for companies who never chase storms who suck.

I've worked for good companies that don't chase storms and I've worked for good companies who chase storms.

When I first started selling roofs I didn't know much about the business and ended up working for some shady people.

The mark of a good company has nothing to do with the company chasing storms or not.

Do they put on good roofs? Do they honor their warranties? Do they pull permits? Do they have the proper insurance? Do they pay their taxes? Are they licensed?


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## dougger222

insuranceroofer said:


> I've been selling roofs for the last 25 years. I have sold for sorry companies who don't do insurance work. I have sold for sorry companies that do insurance work.
> 
> I have worked for companies who chase storms who suck and I have worked for companies who never chase storms who suck.
> 
> I've worked for good companies that don't chase storms and I've worked for good companies who chase storms.
> 
> When I first started selling roofs I didn't know much about the business and ended up working for some shady people.
> 
> The mark of a good company has nothing to do with the company chasing storms or not.
> 
> Do they put on good roofs? Do they honor their warranties? Do they pull permits? Do they have the proper insurance? Do they pay their taxes? Are they licensed?


Well put


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## MDAVIS21

Adding my $0.02 on this topic. I am an independent adjuster and do not have a lot of respect for the storm chaser's. Most of the representatives from a storm chasing company I have met with don't know a thing about roofing or damages sustained. Most only have a few months as a sales rep.. 

This lack of experience is also prevelant on my side of the fence as well. A lot of the adjuster's anymore don't have a lot of experience. A lot have no idea how or what is included in a complete roof job. Then add to that what some of these insurance companies guidelines are and you end up with a real mess.

I am old school and make it a point to meet with the homeowner's roofer inorder to agree on the scope. I have to use Xactimate for the estimate and if we have agreed on the scope, then the pricing in Xactimte works out for both parties.

Don't ask me what the cost per square is, as it will vary based on too many different factors. Such as 1 story vs. 2, steepness of the slope, vents, skylights, etc.....


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## dougger222

I have found that after very large hail storms many insurance companies and adjusting companies take on adjusters to keep up that have little to no roof damage experiance.

Have met a few adjusters who have come right out and said, "This is the first roof claim for me".

It's sort of funny meeting with independant adjusters because they are always looking at the paperwork to see what provider it is which typicaly means buying or denying.


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## ecenur

insuranceroofer said:


> If a roofing company understands how to get the most out of insurance companies, they almost always make more than companies that bid jobs.
> 
> Wouldn't it make sense for all roofing companies during a storm to negotiate with insurance companies instead of giving bids?
> 
> If companies did not give bids, then you wouldn't have to play the bid game.


 I think, if roofing companies worked together with insurance companies they would make more money. However, Insurance companies would not want any interest in that because, everyone wants to get the higher price.


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## insuranceroofer

MDAVIS21 said:


> Adding my $0.02 on this topic. I am an independent adjuster and do not have a lot of respect for the storm chaser's. Most of the representatives from a storm chasing company I have met with don't know a thing about roofing or damages sustained. Most only have a few months as a sales rep..
> 
> This lack of experience is also prevelant on my side of the fence as well. A lot of the adjuster's anymore don't have a lot of experience. A lot have no idea how or what is included in a complete roof job. Then add to that what some of these insurance companies guidelines are and you end up with a real mess.
> 
> I am old school and make it a point to meet with the homeowner's roofer inorder to agree on the scope. I have to use Xactimate for the estimate and if we have agreed on the scope, then the pricing in Xactimte works out for both parties.
> 
> Don't ask me what the cost per square is, as it will vary based on too many different factors. Such as 1 story vs. 2, steepness of the slope, vents, skylights, etc.....


 
You are right many roofing sales people don't know much about roofing, because there is HIGH TURNOVER in roofing sales.

The sales person does not put the roof on. The people who matter in this equation are the owner and the roofing crews. The sales person is just there to sell and if they stick around long enough they will learn about roofing well enough.


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## MetroplexRoof007

dougger222 said:


> I have found that after very large hail storms many insurance companies and adjusting companies take on adjusters to keep up that have little to no roof damage experiance.
> 
> Have met a few adjusters who have come right out and said, "This is the first roof claim for me".
> 
> It's sort of funny meeting with independant adjusters because they are always looking at the paperwork to see what provider it is which typicaly means buying or denying.


100% Correct

We had a car adjuster come to a clients property with 0 experience and scared to climb the roof. The insurance adjuster denied the roof said there was no damage. The insurance company would not give a re-inspection without us going out and chalking the roof like a real adjuster and send pictures in proving the damage. All of this just to get a re-inspection. The roof was bought for hail/wind damage. 

70sq 10/12 8/12 split pitch

www.metroplexroof.com


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## Ed the Roofer

insuranceroofer said:


> I've been selling roofs for the last 25 years. I have sold for sorry companies who don't do insurance work. I have sold for sorry companies that do insurance work.
> 
> I have worked for companies who chase storms who suck and I have worked for companies who never chase storms who suck.
> 
> I've worked for good companies that don't chase storms and I've worked for good companies who chase storms.
> 
> When I first started selling roofs I didn't know much about the business and ended up working for some shady people.
> 
> The mark of a good company has nothing to do with the company chasing storms or not.
> 
> Do they put on good roofs? Do they honor their warranties? Do they pull permits? Do they have the proper insurance? Do they pay their taxes? Are they licensed?


That pretty much sums up a proper analogy, missing at least a few vital points though.

Companies who are able to establish roots and become a mainstay in their surrounding communities, whether or not there work is Storm related or referral based or advertising based should not be included in the Scum Bag depiction.

What really irks me is the amount of marketing/advertising exploitation and outright lies.

Claiming to be an established local business for XX amount of years.

Buying out a locals name or phone number.

Leaving when the cherry picked neighborhoods are exhausted and just leaving a 1 year warranty presence on call to legally qualify.

Paying for a BBB accreditation for differing areas, regardless of trashed ratings in previous communities.

Changing company names at the drop of a hat.

Using unqualified subs not carrying the right type of insurance, if any.

Subs that drop insurance after they got their certificates distributed and then don't pay the remaining premiums.

Using unverifiable illegal immigrants via the subs, since now they are not the Storm Chaser Companies employees and they transfer the obligation for verification to the head honcho sub.

Other things I have not thought of off the top of my head right now.

Ed


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## larryb

Because they don't know how...

From contractors who low ball to reckless storm chasers who come into town, do their damage then leave as quick as they came...takes all kinds.

It's simply not logical to broad brush any particular group as "evil" because one may not agree with or completely understand the others methods.

In the case of "storm chasers", there are obviously differences of opinions. Most of the difference in opinions has to do with a lack of understanding of how the insurance claims process works and mostly with the misnomer that is the term "storm chaser".

Contractors (most of them) who work storm damage claims in the same city, county, or state they are based in cannot legitimately be called "storm chasers" since they are not really chasing storms (traveling around the country to the next storm). Instead, they are simply offering their services to the same potential customers they would otherwise approach on a retail basis, only in many multiples over a much shorter period of time. 

If a contractor (primarily, exterior - roofing, siding, etc) is in business to make money, there's no better way to accomplish that than by becoming well versed on the processes involved in contracting storm damage insurance repair work. Want to earn as much in one year doing storm repairs as you might in three doing regular retail? Who wouldn't.

If you price your work fairly (real true and accurate rates (not low ball Xactimate insurance favored rates), do quality work, stand behind your work and do everything else right, you deserve all of the "extra" profit you will earn. Actually, the profit earned is not "extra" at all...

The problems arise however due to lack of training. The reason for that lack of training is that, until fairly recently, there was no viable, substantive and specific training available. 

After a storm, the real "storm chasers" (traveling around the country) who know more of how the process works come into town and hit the ground running. They place ad's in the paper, hire people with who knows what exprience then send them out door knocking and representing themselves as "insurance claim specialists" or something similar. 

Soon after, local contractors who see the storm as a financial windfall also jump on the bandwagon. A very small minority of them will really know what they are doing while most of the others will end up stumbling around in the dark. Worse than that, far too many local contractors will go about offering "free" estimates which is just what the P&C insurance companies want to happen.

Free estimates/bids are fine for retail contracting but a foolish waste of time and money in a storm damage situation. Example: RTA cost of repair is $25,000. Adjuster using Xactimate or similar program offers to pay $19,500. Free estimate contractors get into a bidding war offering to contract the repairs for less than the $19,500 offered to the insured. Ultimate result example: the free estimate contractor under prices the work at $18,500 (absorbs the insured's $1,000 dedutible). The difference between what the FE contractor charged and should have charged is $6,500 which is mostly deserved profit. 

Another example of missed profit is as follows: A contractor with some understanding of the process and has bought into the Xactimate "myth", using Xactimate, comes in at the same (low ball) price as the adjusters Xactimate price of $19,500. If he doesn't "bury" the deductible (fraudulant if not illegal) his price to the customer is $19,500, $5,500 below the RTA rate but he "feels good" and believes he's done a good job for the customer by "convincing" the adjuster to "fully" pay the claim.

Only a couple of local contractors who do everything right and have invested the time and money on learning the process (rather than wasting their money on Xactimate, for example) will get the customer (and themselves) fully paid ($25,000 @ approx 40% profit with full and correctly paid O&P) and the customer made whole. That's the right way to get the job done. 

Yes, "storm chasers", when defined as those who travel state to state, do bad work, then leave a tremendous mess behind, do serious damage to the contracting industry overall. However, lumping anyone who does storm damage repair work, particularly those who do such work locally, and do everything right, into the same pile as the first group reveals a bias based on a lack of understanding and experience within what truly is a specialty.

Contingency agreements? The only way to protect the interests of the customer and the contractor through the committment that the contingency agreement creates between the two parties.











As more and more local contractors in any area get properly trained and educated on the process, the more they're able to overcome the out of town/state "storm chaser" problem.


----------



## Ed the Roofer

Where did you get trained in "Non-Exactimate" adjustments and contracts Larry?

Ed


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## larryb

Hi Ed,

I understand that self promotion on RT (like other forums) is generally and understandably frowned upon. Therefore, I have listed my credentials as a vendor/service provider as well as a licensed GC when asked or required.

That being said, and, since you asked, I trained myself over a 39 year period. I also have 20 years of high level insurance and investment industry experience.

Based on that experience, I developed my own storm damage estimating program which I include free with my insurance claims training and certification program, which I will not mention here, that certifies contractors as verifiable insurance claims specialists.

Primarily for contractors that do exterior storm damage repairs, it teaches them everything they need to know on how to successfully process storm damage insurance claims which includes getting insurance companies to fully pay their claims at real, true and accurate (RTA) market rates (as opposed to Xactimate rates) + correct O&P on 100% of the claim regardless of # of trades thereby making the customer whole and allowing the (non "storm Chaser") contractor that does storm damage repair work to remain viable as well as very profitable and able to retire in some comfort when their body begins to object to the stresses that anyone (including me) in the business for many years eventually begins to experience. 

Contingency agreements/contracts. Attorneys have been using them for many decades. When an attorney works under a contingency agreement with a client, he/she does not know what the end result will be. Usually, the terms of an attorney/client contingency agreement stipulate that if the attorney wins the case, they are entitled to a certain percentage of the ultimate settlement. The contingency agreement/contract with an insured is not all that different. It's the commitment created that counts.

With no law degree or legal training I've taken on some of the most prestigious law firms and lawyers in the Midwest and won - _Pro Se, w_hich is why I never have a problem taking on insurance company CEO's like Ed Rust @ State Farm, Steve Rassmussen @ Nationwide and Ed Liddy or Tom Wilson @ Allstate, for example, and getting them to fully pay their respective company's (insureds) claims.

That way I, and any other contractor that utilizes the program, can afford to do the very best possible job for the customer which is what it is ultimately all about anyway when all is said and done - right?

Xactimate/Xactremodel may have a place in the industry but when it comes to properly processing storm damage insurance claim settlements, (in)Xactimate usually serves only one purpose and that is to keep the insured's settlement payout as low as possible, even if that means underpaying the claim.

I read your posts often, most of it good stuff!

Happy New Year to you and yours...

Sincerely,

Larry Burtis BURCOS / ICCOA


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## Ed the Roofer

larryb said:


> Hi Ed,
> 
> 
> *I read your posts often, most of it good stuff!*
> 
> Happy New Year to you and yours...
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Larry Burtis BURCOS / ICCOA


 
LOL, only most of it.

Ed


----------



## larryb

Ed the Roofer said:


> LOL, only most of it.
> 
> Ed


98% ain't all bad!


----------



## PTROOFING

I dont get how storm chasers are making any money?

I see it all the time, the print out from the insurance company to the homeowner.

Say this:

25sq 3-tab roof after depreciation, my customer was given a check for $5,500.00. Homeowner paid their deductable and my contract for a 30yr dimensional with ice guard and titanium felt and 2 chimney wraps was $6,900.00. I couldnt put on a 3-tab for less than $6,700.00

So. Homeowner had to pay us $1,400.00 out of their pocket. 

So you storm guys, how are you putting on 30yrs, paying deductable, and making a profit? Please tell me!

You guys make me laugh. I just put on a GAF 30yr Prestique roof on my house in June '09 and had 3 guys walk to my door and tell me I need a new roof because of hail damage, then I tell them I own a roofing company, soooo funny!


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## larryb

PTROOFING said:


> I dont get how storm chasers are making any money?
> 
> I see it all the time, the print out from the insurance company to the homeowner.
> 
> Say this:
> 
> 25sq 3-tab roof after depreciation, my customer was given a check for $5,500.00. Homeowner paid their deductable and my contract for a 30yr dimensional with ice guard and titanium felt and 2 chimney wraps was $6,900.00. I couldnt put on a 3-tab for less than $6,700.00
> 
> So. Homeowner had to pay us $1,400.00 out of their pocket.
> 
> So you storm guys, how are you putting on 30yrs, paying deductable, and making a profit? Please tell me!
> 
> You guys make me laugh. I just put on a GAF 30yr Prestique roof on my house in June '09 and had 3 guys walk to my door and tell me I need a new roof because of hail damage, then I tell them I own a roofing company, soooo funny!


Here's how this storm damage contractor (not a "storm chaser") does it... 

I can give numerous examples showing where an insurance adjuster (again, usually using (in)Xactimate), estimates a storm damage job at 40%, 60% or maybe even as high as 80% of what a professional contractor who wants to make a profit and stay in business would price the job at. Five "free" estimate contractors, some who claim to be "insurance experts" but are not, offer to bid on the job. All offer to do the job for less than the insurance company's low ball offer and/or offer to "bury" the deductible. 

A "storm chaser" contractor more familiar with the process comes into town and hires sales reps who don't know a hammer from a skill saw or a shingle from a 2 x 6 and tells them to present themselves to potential customers as "insurance claim specialists" or something similar. They go out knocking on doors and start signing up customers. 

They will usually get more money from the insurance company than the "free" estimate guy's but will they get all of the money and will they be around when warranty issues arise? All of the money? Occassionally. Be around? Probably not. 

With 39+ years hands on contracting/sales/business experience and 20 years insurance industry experience, I get a call from a potential customer who heard about my company on the radio or found me on the www, tell them of my experience and offer my services. If they like what I've proven to them, they sign a contingency agreement with me that they know obligates them to me and me to them. 

With their committment to have me do the work if I'm successful in fullfilling my commtiment to them - getting them fully paid, I spend my time doing so rather than wasting my time running "free" estimates for other insureds with damage who are all too often looking for someone who will pay their deductible and/or do the work for substantially less then the full replacement value. I'm not interested and don't want that business or the headaches that are part of the process.

Because the contractors who are willing to bury the deductible just to get the job probably don't understand (or don't care) any better than the insured that the insurance settlement offer is low ball, both end up underpaid. The insured's acutal settlement offer should have been, for example, $12,000. The adjuster offered and the insured settled for $9,500 RCV ($8,500 after insured's $1,000 deductible). 

The low ball contractor who doesn't know any better offers to do the job for $8,500 (after absorbing the $1,000 deductible). The insured thinks they pulled one over on their insurance company by getting the contractor to pay the deductible. In effect, the insured got their new roof installed for "free" - or so they think. 

In reality, the low ball contractor under bid the job (and possibly missed damage due to lack of experience) thereby costing himself $3,500. The insured who thought they saved $1,000 (their deductible) actually lost at least $2,500 on the deal because of the fact that the insurance company underpaid them and also possibly missed other damage. Both parties lost and the insurance company won.

Had the insurance company properly and fully paid the claim at $12,000 (RTA value), the contractor and the insured would both be made whole. The insurance company wouldn't have paid anymore than they should have, they only paid what the job was really worth per their policy, based on the premiums paid. Insurance companies are not going to pay more than the RTA value of any claim, period. But allowing them to pay less than RTA values is business suicide.

Then, there's that specious endless argument against contingency agreements based on ill-informed opinions that because they are 'open ended' they are somehow not legitimate. Fact is, they are not open ended since it is (or should be) spelled out in the agreement that, although not filled in when signed, will only be filled in based on the items and prices provided by the insurance company on their loss report which the insured is in possession of. 

When properly written in plain english legalese, contingency agreements state that when the insured agrees to the final pricing, all items and prices will be written in the contingency that automatically converts to a contract at that time. The contingency should also show price lines for additional items such as supplements (insurance paid but not yet known) and customer approved upgrades. When done right by a contractor who knows what they are doing, the contractor earns what they are worth, the insured is made whole and the insurance company pays correctly.

Because there is so much confusion about (and often, disregard for) how the storm damage insurance recovery and repair process really works (see last sentence in last paragraph) and because so much money $1,000,000's) is left on the table by inexperienced contractors, I wrote a "how to" book about it and developed an estimating program specifically designed for storm damage work (primarily exterior) that teaches contractors how to get paid top dollar for their efforts. 

I understand, no advertising on this forum, therefore, no direct reference or offer is made or implied...However, here is the number I came up with on the numbers you listed above using my own storm damage estimating program with correct O&P included: $13,558 at an approximate 41% profit. 

If the customer decides they want to upgrade from a 25yr 3-tab to a 30yr dimensional, I have the option to offer the upgrade at full price (the difference between the material cost of the 3-tabs and the 30yr), at half price, 10%, at cost, or I can give them the upgrade at no additional cost since I made a good and deserved profit on the job before considering any upgrades. 

That's how this contractor makes money on storm damage repair work. And, by knowing how to price and process insurance repair work the right way, I earn the same amount of money it would take me twice as long to earn otherwise - money that I can use now to buy new equip, pay bonuses, invest, vacation, or whatever - instead of waiting...and waiting...and waiting.


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## PTROOFING

I gues we just run a steady, honest business. If someone wants a price, they call and we give it to them. We do not ever go door to door OR tell people that we'll handle the insurance part. The insurance work we've done, the homeowner has made a claim, got paid and then paid us, period.

We dont lower our price to get jobs. We have a set price for jobs between 25-40sq and thats what we bid at, another, period.


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## Poynor Roofing

If the Insurance Comanpanies agrees to pay, their must be a reason. I don't know why that would bother someones Conscience.


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## buildpinnacle

I know just as many hacks that don't work claims than those that do. What 'type' of work you do does not define your company. This is and always has been a stupid debate of whether or not it's moral or ethical to negotiate a claim. For those of you who don't think property owners should have any help in the claims process.....wait until you have a fire or water loss on your home. Let's see how close the adjsuter gets it on the first pass. What on earth would you do when your bids start coming in so much higher with so much more work itemized. You may have to have one of those companies call the adjuster and explain their estimate and justify the charges. The experience level required to adjust claims is one week class with a test on Friday and $450 bucks. How many roofers would you hire to put roofs on for you with those credentials?


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## ultimateconstruction

insuranceroofer said:


> Have morals? What do you mean? I think the people who make pennies on a roof have no business sense and if you have no business sense how is that really helping your customers? If your profit is too low, you are going to be constantly struggling. Don't you want to make alot of money? Don't you believe you are worth a higher price? I just don't understand why you would say it is not moral. Your in the roofing business not charity. Roofing takes alot of work, I mean alot of work. Do you realize with all the work you put into roofing that if you don't charge alot that you are wasting your time, because you could go work in another business and make more.


:thumbup:you're basically right when you say that business is not a charity and giving a higher rate in exchange of your service is just worth it. But i commend the person who said that he has his morals and that his intentions are pure when he justify why he regards business with importance of taking the burden of the client to pay a high price.:yes:I mean, there are already few business men who are not consumed on this money and power hungry society nowadays. However, you shouldn't compromise the quality of your service in return of a cheap price.I should know,because we only guarantee our clients a high standard basis.


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## Roofmaster417

Grumpy said:


> Let's see? Oh because I have morals. Because I have a conscience and I want to be able to sleep at night.
> 
> 
> The more insurance storm chasing scum bags in a forum, the lower the quality of the forum.


Wow Grumpy....You really are Grumpy.


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## DFWRoofing

In the DFW market, there are many low end roofers who go door to door and tell anyone and everyone to make an insurance claim. Many have only an old roof. They often eat the deductible and do get some work.

Now I don't know that a true storm chaser would consider themselves in the same category I just described, but I do not think highly of their methods or ethics. Outside of the obvious wrong of eating a deductible, they are doing a real disservice by having people with simply old roofs making claims who later get forced to replace their roof or not get their insurance renewed.


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## DFWRoofing

Though not a storm chaser, we do plenty of insurance work.

In the Dallas market, once corrected for adjuster omissions, an Xactimate bid is very good price.


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## larryb

DFWRoofing said:


> Though not a storm chaser, we do plenty of insurance work.
> 
> From previous post...
> 
> "there are many low end roofers who go door to door and tell anyone and everyone to make an insurance claim."
> 
> Presumably you mean low quality as well as low price roofers. You are correct in implying that contractors who tell people their old roof is storm damaged (when it is not) are unscrupulous.
> 
> There are always and will always be contractors of all stripes who misrepresent the facts. Whether retail "free" estimate or "storm chaser", there are good and bad in both. Contractors who bury deductibles...they hurt themselves as well as the industry overall...and they don't have to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the Dallas market, once corrected for adjuster omissions, an Xactimate bid is very good price.
> 
> 
> 
> Usually, it isn't adjuster ommissions that cause an adjusters low bid, it's usually due to the fact that the adjusters are simply using Xactimates #'s which are usually lower than real, true and accurate market rates (RTA) for any given area. Contractors using Xactimate are usually cheating themselves out of deserved profits.
Click to expand...


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## DFWRoofing

larryb said:


> DFWRoofing said:
> 
> 
> 
> Though not a storm chaser, we do plenty of insurance work.
> 
> From previous post...
> 
> "there are many low end roofers who go door to door and tell anyone and everyone to make an insurance claim."
> 
> Presumably you mean low quality as well as low price roofers. You are correct in implying that contractors who tell people their old roof is storm damaged (when it is not) are unscrupulous.
> 
> There are always and will always be contractors of all stripes who misrepresent the facts. Whether retail "free" estimate or "storm chaser", there are good and bad in both. Contractors who bury deductibles...they hurt themselves as well as the industry overall...and they don't have to.
> 
> 
> 
> Usually, it isn't adjuster ommissions that cause an adjusters low bid, it's usually due to the fact that the adjusters are simply using Xactimates #'s which are usually lower than real, true and accurate market rates (RTA) for any given area. Contractors using Xactimate are usually cheating themselves out of deserved profits.
> 
> 
> 
> larry,
> 
> You guys are in such a different world than me. Xactimate is very good in our market, but I know cost are much lower in Texas (no comp, no state license...wild west really)
Click to expand...


----------



## larryb

DFWRoofing said:


> larryb said:
> 
> 
> 
> larry,
> 
> You guys are in such a different world than me. Xactimate is very good in our market, but I know cost are much lower in Texas (no comp, no state license...wild west really)
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that but, assuming insureds are paying about the same or same premiums in TX as they are everywhere else (might be slightly less with the ridiculously high deductibles) and also rightly assuming that premiums factor in O&P, you guys should be charging alot more money.
> 
> From what I hear from several of my customers in TX however, you are right, it is a different world...
Click to expand...


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## charlotteroofers

Ed the Roofer said:


> That pretty much sums up a proper analogy, missing at least a few vital points though.
> 
> Companies who are able to establish roots and become a mainstay in their surrounding communities, whether or not there work is Storm related or referral based or advertising based should not be included in the Scum Bag depiction.
> 
> What really irks me is the amount of marketing/advertising exploitation and outright lies.
> 
> Claiming to be an established local business for XX amount of years.
> 
> Buying out a locals name or phone number.
> 
> Leaving when the cherry picked neighborhoods are exhausted and just leaving a 1 year warranty presence on call to legally qualify.
> 
> Paying for a BBB accreditation for differing areas, regardless of trashed ratings in previous communities.
> 
> Changing company names at the drop of a hat.
> 
> Using unqualified subs not carrying the right type of insurance, if any.
> 
> Subs that drop insurance after they got their certificates distributed and then don't pay the remaining premiums.
> 
> Using unverifiable illegal immigrants via the subs, since now they are not the Storm Chaser Companies employees and they transfer the obligation for verification to the head honcho sub.
> 
> Other things I have not thought of off the top of my head right now.
> 
> Ed


This about sums up 90% of my Roofing competition here in the Charlotte NC area and fast talking snake oil selling gypsy storm chasing sales teams roam the area and try to bleed it dry then leave without a trace screwing customers by providing shoddy installs with no real warranty to back up the work and local suppliers that are owed thousands or more who are SOL.....

We give our customers the best and we also go door to door to assist customers locally with hail damage claims but we are local and provide our customers with a full warranty we will be around to back it up. I give the best to my customers and being a full service remodeler we also take care of all the interior and additional exterior damage that most of these competitors can't.

Its unfortunate that we have to deal with Scumbag competitors who crap on people and Scumbag insurance companies who try to crap on us and their customer. Xactimate really helps so when I send them my Scope of Work they pay. If we get on a Roof and find no damage we tell the customer not to call in a claim because this is Fraud and if we get their Roof approved they better do the work or we will report it. You have to be honest and be here when the storm work has dried up and that is what my company is and always will be....

Charlotte Roofing, Remodeling & Painting


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## shinglebroker

Because insurance companys suck


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## charlotteroofers

shinglebroker said:


> Because insurance companys suck


Yes some of them do! but there should also be some accountability because alot of roofers suck too and are crooks that try to file fake claims and even go as far as damaging roofs on purpose swindling insurers out of 100s of millions of dollars a year when some newbie adjuster approves the roof or worse a veteran adjuster who approves the roof because he is worried that the homeowner will sue the insurer for not taking care of claim he knew would leak with in six months o account of what the roofer did......as you know we've had several hail storms in charlotte nc, mooresville, iron station and wind damage as well as a few mini tornadoes in shelby/kings mountain and spencer.


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## larryb

leakfree said:


> ctroofer0930
> Your confusing me.
> If you live in the area that you support how can you also be a storm chaser?
> Do you really spend 20 hours in paperwork alone per job? My family would starve at that rate.
> But hey, along as it works for you. :thumbup:


 
It works for anyone who understands the process. While 20 hrs is a bit high - on the average - when properly trained, a contractor spending 3 to 7 hours on per insurance job paperwork is making great money while the free estimate guy trying to write storm damage (and usually gets underpaid) is spinning his wheels....................


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## larryb

cavesrus said:


> I agree with grumpy storm chaser is low end and doesn't know how bad he hurts the market. Every time one. Closes it doors 4 will spawn out of it. They lie cheat etc. If you only rely on storm work and go door to door promising the world then u r storm chaser. If u say sign blank contract ur SC. If u say I will do for xmate them u r SC. Have your set profit and educate customer not try and get every penny from INS.


Let's see, 

Point 1: "storm chaser" is low end and doesn't know how bad he hurts the market".

How does he hurt the market? If one is talking about contractors (SC or otherwise) who lie, cheat and steal, the writer is correct. However, implying that any contractor who does storm damage insurance repair work lies, cheats and steals as the writer has done, that is an erroneous misperception that illustrates ignorance of the process. Any contractor who low balls work hurts the market. "Storm chasers" (people who contract for storm damage insurance repair jobs) usually get paid the highest dollars for their work which only serves to raise the boats of all contractors in any given area.

Point 2: "If u say sign blank contract ur SC." You obviously don't understand contingency agreements and how they really work. BTW, none of them are "blank" contracts and when completed only contain the information pertaining to what the insurance company has ultimately agreed to repair at the price the insurance company has ultimately agreed to pay plus any upgrades the HO may have asked to have done.

Point 3: "If u say I will do for xmate them u r SC." That makes no sense, really. Since Xactimate usually underprices work in any given area any contractor who doesn't know any better and accepts xmate pricing is cheating themselves and the insured. Still, Xactimate numbers, although low ball, are usually about average when compared to the numbers offered by free estimate contractors in a storm damage situation.

Point 4: "Have your set profit and educate customer not try and get every penny from INS." Not try and get every penny from insurance??? If the insurance company tries to (and always does) get every penny of premium owed to them by their insured, does it not make sense that a professional contractor who understands the process should serve their customers by making sure the insurance company pays the insured everything they promised to pay them? Of course they should - nothing unethical or immoral about that.

With 40 years exp in the biz, I've seen all of the good and the bad...crooks, liers, cheaters, bums, top notch installers (all trades) top notch contractors, subs, etc. The number of bums is the biz across the country far outweighs the number of SC bad actors. The reason "SC's" get such a bad rap (some deservedly so) is that the focus is so concentrated in any area where a large storm has hit.


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## larryb

dougger222 said:


> Have met a few adjusters who have come right out and said, "This is the first roof claim for me".


Adjusters (plural)...Most likely, they are pulling ur leg...


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## larryb

Ed the Roofer said:


> Other things I have not thought of off the top of my head right now.Ed


Reasonably thought out and expressed as well as fair!


----------



## MDAVIS21

It is not Xactimate that is low, but rather the constraints that the insurance put on the adjusters in writing the scope. The bottom line for the job with these constraints is what causes low estimate using Xactimate.

There are insurance companies that believe that everything on the roof comes off with the shingles. Thus the field adjuster can not include the removal of roofing accessories that have to be taken off by with the shingles. Like stack vent flashings, etc....

Also a lot of insurance companies will not allow the field adjuster to replace chimney flashings, step flashings, counter flashings, etc... They are becoming penny pinchers and as they have no experience out in the field, their guidelines for a roof repair or replacement do not match reality.

As to Xactimate pricing, I have worked with too many roofers to even try and count. If I write an accurate roof estimate using Xactimate there is no problem with the agreed cost of the job.

I periodically check pricing of materials when I get to a storm area so I can see if the update pricelist from Xactimate is in line. I find some items are below market, and some items are above market prices. But the bottom line as to the overall cost of the job should be right there with the roofer. Be it a storm chasing company or local roofer.


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## larryb

MDAVIS21 said:


> It is not Xactimate that is low, but rather the constraints that the insurance put on the adjusters in writing the scope. The bottom line for the job with these constraints is what causes low estimate using Xactimate.
> 
> There are insurance companies that believe that everything on the roof comes off with the shingles. Thus the field adjuster can not include the removal of roofing accessories that have to be taken off by with the shingles. Like stack vent flashings, etc....
> 
> Also a lot of insurance companies will not allow the field adjuster to replace chimney flashings, step flashings, counter flashings, etc... They are becoming penny pinchers and as they have no experience out in the field, their guidelines for a roof repair or replacement do not match reality.
> 
> As to Xactimate pricing, I have worked with too many roofers to even try and count. If I write an accurate roof estimate using Xactimate there is no problem with the agreed cost of the job.
> 
> I periodically check pricing of materials when I get to a storm area so I can see if the update pricelist from Xactimate is in line. I find some items are below market, and some items are above market prices. But the bottom line as to the overall cost of the job should be right there with the roofer. Be it a storm chasing company or local roofer.


It's because Xactimate (ISO) is beholden to the insurance industry that their prices are usually low ball. I've yet to see an Xactimate estimate from an ins adjuster that wasn't substantially below RTA market value - anywhere in the country! If a contractor is willing to work for Xactimate pricing rather than RTA pricing, that's their choice but, they'll always leave money on the table - lot of it and the HO will never be made whole even though everyone of them paid full price on their premiums.


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## MDAVIS21

larryb said:


> It's because Xactimate (ISO) is beholden to the insurance industry that their prices are usually low ball. I've yet to see an Xactimate estimate from an ins adjuster that wasn't substantially below RTA market value - anywhere in the country! If a contractor is willing to work for Xactimate pricing rather than RTA pricing, that's their choice but, they'll always leave money on the table - lot of it and the HO will never be made whole even though everyone of them paid full price on their premiums.


Your kind of missing the point. It is usually not the estimating software, Xactimate, Simsol, MSB, etc..., that is producing what you call "low ball" estimates.

It is the restraints put on the adjuster in the insurance companies instructions that cause the "low ball" estimates. Add to that certain insurance companies produce their own pricing databases (now these ones are the "low ball" pricing data bases) that the adjuster working their claims must use.

If allowed to write up a roof replacement correctly, there should not be that big of a difference between the contractor's proposal and the adjusters estimate.


----------



## larryb

MDAVIS21 said:


> Your kind of missing the point. It is usually not the estimating software, Xactimate, Simsol, MSB, etc..., that is producing what you call "low ball" estimates.
> 
> It is the restraints put on the adjuster in the insurance companies instructions that cause the "low ball" estimates. Add to that certain insurance companies produce their own pricing databases (now these ones are the "low ball" pricing data bases) that the adjuster working their claims must use.
> 
> If allowed to write up a roof replacement correctly, there should not be that big of a difference between the contractor's proposal and the adjusters estimate.


Restraints, instructions, pricing data or whatever. It's what's inputed into those insurance industry favored estimating software programs that keep prices artificially low. Of course, the adjuster is simply going by what his/her estimating program lists (usually below RTA values) and then "missing" (failing to record) other damage or deny legitmate damage.

Think we're both on the same page on this one.


----------



## pro exteriors

Grumpy said:


> Go chase a storm.
> 
> Just because the insurance companies don't sign our checks doesn't mean we make pennies for profit. Sure there are plenty of guys out there that don't understand business and shouldn't be running a business, but in my opinion a hail chasing scum bag also shouldn't be in business. BOTH the low baller and the storm chaser are bottom of the barrell scum in my opinion.


If this were Facebook I would be hitting the like button. I live in rapid city sd and we get at least 1 or 2 good hail storms a year (just got one last august that damaged 9000 homes in a town of 60k) so I know exactly what you mean when you say storm chasing scum, we see about 10-15 new "roofing companies" every year.


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## Jayteedee

larryb said:


> Restraints, instructions, pricing data or whatever. It's what's inputed into those insurance industry favored estimating software programs that keep prices artificially low. Of course, the adjuster is simply going by what his/her estimating program lists (usually below RTA values) and then "missing" (failing to record) other damage or deny legitmate damage.
> 
> Think we're both on the same page on this one.


Larry:

Where do I find these RTA values?


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## larryb

Jayteedee said:


> Larry:
> 
> Where do I find these RTA values?


RTA (real, true and accurate) values are the rates that a pro contractor with all ins, top installers, top products, etc. and who wants to stay in business charges in any given area. Since insurance co's base their premiums on top rates (future) in order to max profits, it only makes sense that contractors should charge at top rates (current) that are real, true, and accurate in relation to what the ins co's base their premiums on. This is different then retail estimating where the costs are based on the competetive estimates given. 

If the ins co premium prices a repair job at $12,000 (current) that would be priced at $14,000 (future) the current price of the job for all contractors, regardless of their "need" (overhead, ins, costs, etc.), should be $12,000 since that is what the insured has already pre-paid for. That's why contingency agreements are used and "free" estimates not given. 

On the other hand, ins co's/ISO, Inc. conduct "surveys" that supposedly represent proper repair pricing for any given area and those prices generally bear no relation to the pricing the ins co's base their premiums on. "They" (XM8 and others) say their pricing is MOR. I suspect that they take the low, mid (MOR) and high pricing they get from their questionable surveys then kick out the high range then call MOR the price between the low and mid range then tell contractors their pricing is the industry standard. They may be the insurance industry standard but they are not the construction industry standard.


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## Jayteedee

And once again, these RTA values are determined how? By Whom? 
I can find "Prevailing Wage" for every state. 

I can find "Davis Bacon" wage rates, fringe benefits and adjustment factors for every state, county and trade that is imagineable. 

I am just asking where do I find these rates? Who publishes them? Who documents them? They have to differ from place to place as costs differ from place to place.


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## Grumpy

Real true and accurate is what each contractor (and possibly his accountant) says it is. Well that's the way it *should* be anyways. 

Larry don't you find it foul that insurance companeis base their premiums on top rates but offer their contractors low rates. I agree we should all be charging more. This is not an attempt at collusion, but we all know roofing is hard, and we could be doing something easier, and alot of people leave the trade for easier trades... because the money's just not there in most cases. If I can do something easier, for the same money, it's just smart to move. I never understood why sheet metal workers make more than roofers (per prevailing wage) when the work is easier. I think it comes down to smarts honestly. LOL sometimes I wonder how smart I really am staying in this trade.


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## larryb

Jayteedee said:


> And once again, these RTA values are determined how? By Whom?
> I can find "Prevailing Wage" for every state.
> 
> I can find "Davis Bacon" wage rates, fringe benefits and adjustment factors for every state, county and trade that is imagineable.
> 
> I am just asking where do I find these rates? Who publishes them? Who documents them? They have to differ from place to place as costs differ from place to place.


Common sense and many years of construction and ins industry exp. Determined by the top rates paid in any particular area to pro contractors who understand how values of ins co repair pricing relate to ins co premium pricing. 

Example: Ins co premium based on a repair that, in the near future would be $25,000 but is presently $20,000 in a particular area. 
The $25,000 is what they calculated the future cost to be. They are in business to make money so they price at top rates!

Since the current repair cost is $20,000 which includes payment for any and all code upgrades, O&P, etc., they saved $5,000 since the damage occured in the present rather than the future. 

A pro contractor who knows what it takes, how much it costs to stay in business over the long term, pay good wages and all ins, advertising, overhead, etc. is going to price their work at the top rate their particular market will bear. The ins co actuaries know what those numbers are and prices potential repair work accordingly. The pro contractor will be around, give or take, the $20,000 that the contractor and the ins co know is the RTA for the area. 

This is distincly different from retail where, even though RTA for the pro contractor is $20,000, most free estimate competing contractors will price the job at below the $20k RTA rate. 

The $20k repair price will likely be lower than that in southern states as will the ins premiums paid. Still, it's all relative.

Since the ins co has pre-determined the repair cost to be $20k presently then that is what the pro contractor and all other contractors should be charging. Any contractor who charges or accepts less is cheating themselves and the ins co is cheating the insured. 

Any contractor who thinks to themselves, regarding ins work anyway, "I don't need to make as much as a bigger guy so I'm going to accept whatever the insurance co offers" needs to rethink their business plan.

Ins co received premium based on $25k future costs which are $20 presently. Then, they attempt to dramatically underpay by whatever percentage to save even more money. Received premiums suffcient to cover future $25k/present $20k but attempt to pay $17,500 which would save them another $2,500 for a total saved of $7,500. Multiply that out a few thousand times.

MN and other northern states usually pay higher because in the winter, most of us are freezin our butts off causing us to stay inside and study and become more agressive during the shorter time window we have to get work done and that brings prices up - at least for the contractors who are thinking through the process.

Figure out low mid and high range for project XYZ. Experienced contractors who know what those rates are will use the high # as their RTA and, on ins work, use those numbers. That's why contractors who do ins work use contingency agreements and don't waste their time on free estimates. The more locals understand the process the less they have to concern themselves with out of towners. 

Getting to RTA aint all that complicated.


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## larryb

Jayteedee said:


> And once again, these RTA values are determined how? By Whom?
> I can find "Prevailing Wage" for every state.
> 
> I can find "Davis Bacon" wage rates, fringe benefits and adjustment factors for every state, county and trade that is imagineable.
> 
> I am just asking where do I find these rates? Who publishes them? Who documents them? They have to differ from place to place as costs differ from place to place.


Your trade says ins. Are you an agent or adjuster or do you mean you do ins work as a contractor?


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## larryb

Grumpy said:


> Real true and accurate is what each contractor (and possibly his accountant) says it is. Well that's the way it *should* be anyways.
> 
> Larry don't you find it foul that insurance companeis base their premiums on top rates but offer their contractors low rates. I agree we should all be charging more. This is not an attempt at collusion, but we all know roofing is hard, and we could be doing something easier, and alot of people leave the trade for easier trades... because the money's just not there in most cases. If I can do something easier, for the same money, it's just smart to move. I never understood why sheet metal workers make more than roofers (per prevailing wage) when the work is easier. I think it comes down to smarts honestly. LOL sometimes I wonder how smart I really am staying in this trade.


It is foul. Contractors need to learn how much it costs to stay in business over the long term rather than just wing it as so many do - then charge accordingly.

My ins claim work was always at top dollar with good profit and I never made any ins company sign the checks. If they agreed to my pricing that I said was RTA then I must have been right on my assumptions.


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## Jayteedee

larryb said:


> Your trade says ins. Are you an agent or adjuster or do you mean you do ins work as a contractor?


I am an adjuster and have been employed both staff and IA.


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## larryb

Jayteedee said:


> I am an adjuster and have been employed both staff and IA.


Their is overwhelming evidence from various sources too numerous to mention that insurance adjusters working on behalf of P&C insurance companies regularly attempt to underpay and regularly do underpay and unjustly deny damage in the millions of dollars every year due insured's. All of them? No. Most of them? Yes!

On behalf of ISO, Inc. who "advises" P&C ins co's on how to price their premiums (at future rates), their subsidary XM8 conducts their little surveys of "400 plus" markets then claims their pricing is the industry standard. May be the insurance industry standard but it is not the construction industry standard and they know it. That's why, when dealing with experienced pro contractors who know what it takes and how much it costs to stay in business and price their work accordingly the payouts are substantially more than the phony (insurance) industry standard. 

XM8 even admits that their pricing is MOR. I suspect, however, that they arrive at their MOR by taking the low, mid and high pricing from any given area, kick out the high then call the difference between what's left over, low and mid range and call that MOR. Even if they didn't, at their "MOR", that is still substantially less than pro contractor pricing keeping in mind that the premiums were based on future costs rather than current. So, even if P&C ins pays at current pro contractor rates, they're saving money.

I always refused to drink the P&C/XM8 pricing Kool-Aid and the insurance companies always signed the checks that were always for legitimate damage and always higher than what the ins companies tried to pay. P&C ins, just like so many crooked politicians across the country, are starting to get the picture that they can no longer hide behind the usual bs they've been able to hide behind pre-internet. All one needs to do to substantiate claims made by just about anyone is cross check them from three different sources.

Geeeeeeeeeeeez


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## nmarshall603

Larry on average what is the percentage difference you see between Xactimate and your quotes...

I would think there would be a way to use X as a guideline but add some percentage to your numbers..


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## larryb

nmarshall603 said:


> Larry on average what is the percentage difference you see between Xactimate and your quotes...
> 
> I would think there would be a way to use X as a guideline but add some percentage to your numbers..


The average will be different all across the country - depending on the numbers that ISO/Xactimate comes up with through their some 400+ "surveys" they conduct and whether their supposed accurate MOR pricing is current. 

Rule of thumb minimum is 10% across the board above whatever XM8 is paying then including all of the additional line items that XM8 and other "insurance industry standard/mandated" estimating platforms conveniently omit. 

Seeing you are in CO, are you paying attention to CO's attempt to pass the template rubber stamp "no negotiating" bill? Other states have already passed this anti-consumer, anti-free enterprise nonsense and more will be attempting it in the coming months as P&C insurance co lobbyists start flapping their traps there. Thus far, out of the five states I am aware of that have made the attempt to pass this fraud, only MN has defeated it. MN contractors spoke up for their industry as well as millions of consumers and it went away. Tell your fellow contractors your customers what is going on before the bill gets passed into law. 

Go to www.iccoa.com and read through _All USA Home Owners are Pro Choice! and "Trust us, we're legislators and we know best". Get informed then take action._


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## Grumpy

Guy called yesterday, think she has hail damage, wants me to come out and check. $160 inspection fee I say. No thanks he says. No loss I think. <dial tone>


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## Dallas-Roofing

In my opinion all roofing companies should negotiate with insurance companies if it is for the benefit of the home owner. If insurance companies are low balling the bids then it is our responsibly to our customer to make sure that they get a fair claim for the damages. Remember, we are the professionals that deal with insurance on a day to day and the home owners do not. 

Devin Mahdi
Dallas Texas Roofing


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## OldPro

Dallas-Roofing said:


> In my opinion all roofing companies should negotiate with insurance companies if it is for the benefit of the home owner. If insurance companies are low balling the bids then it is our responsibly to our customer to make sure that they get a fair claim for the damages. Remember, we are the professionals that deal with insurance on a day to day and the home owners do not.


Devin is exactly correct here! Ditto!

___________________
Fort Worth Roofing


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## OldPro

Because they don't know any better?

_____________
Old Pro Roofing


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## DENNIS THE ROOFER

SAFETY 1st QUALITY2nd production 3rd


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