# I was approached by a storm chaser today...



## brennon87

I recently discovered this website, very very informative. I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on what happened to me today. 

I was approached by a storm chaser (we recently had a large hail storm in this area.) I am a local roofer and have been in business here for 7 years. The man asked me if I was making good money on roofing, and I said I was doing okay. He asked, "How familiar are you with insurance companies?" I said, fairly familiar and mentioned that often times my estimate is comparable to the insurance companies. He told me that on each job I am leaving hundreds if not thousands of dollars on the table by not going back to a desk adjuster and negotiating the total claim, adding to the estimate. Is this generally true? If so, how many extra man hours does it ususally take to do this? What are the most common things that can be added to the estimate to get these additional funds? Is this frowned upon and is it expected by insurance companies? 

Another Question: There is one company in my area that seems to have all the adjusters referring him. One homeowner told me that the adjuster reccomended this roofer, and even said he was a friend of his. However, he was from out of town. The roofer himself later said that he didn't know the adjuster at all. How does a contractor get adjusters and agents to refer them? Do people offer kickbacks or percentages to the ins. companies? is that legal? 

Thanks for any help, I am still learning and have a long way to go but I appreciate all the experience on this board!

Brennon Todt
TODT Roofing


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## vtroofing

You have not mentioned the reason the SC was contacting you aside from insulting your intelligence and business skills.


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## vtroofing

The reason he is getting Adjusters would most likely be he is Preferred. 

One should ask themselves why a Insurance Company would recommend a particular company. Because they charge more than everyone else? Probably not the case. 

_Personally I love meeting Adjusters_ almost as much as I like meeting car salesman only instead of trying to up-sell they are trying to down-sell their actual responsibilities. 

Why in the world would anybody care to be friends with them?


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## brennon87

We met at a gathering put on by a local supply company. He was actually a pretty nice guy. Our meeting was coincidental, but we talked for some time. He told me that he would be glad to show me how to get more out of each estiamte. I was wondering if it was ethical, reasonable, and practical, hence the questions that I posted. 

Also, the reason that one would want to know and befriend an adjuster is becuase it leads to a good reputation with insurance companies and referrals. 

We have no Insruance preferred contractors in this area, SE Missouri. It is really more of a "buddy buddy" network here. 

Thanks again for all input!


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## vtroofing

The friend comment was referring to the IA. Someone else in this same business with you willing/ wanting to show you how to make more money network away. 

Remaining professional with professional thieves is to each to there own. I'd rather go look at at used cars than meet adjusters, but again each his own.


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## Grumpy

As to the ethics, it is not unethical to negotiate with the insurance company to maximize the return. Often the insurance company low balls from the get go anyways. Like VT said though in regards to the salesman analogy, it can be stressful!


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## oldroofer

if you live in a area that get hail storms every few years i would try to learn everything i could . If you feel comfortable with this gentleman i would go for it and learn everything i could.where i live we may get a major storm 10yrs,to 25 years apart and when it does happen ,the stormer come in and take the majority of the work,and we are left struggling for work until the work gets back in to a normal work flow whats he talking about supplementing the work ,for items the adjuster leave off ,or misses,they do this to save the insurances company money


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## booker

If certain costs are reasonable and ought to be paid by the insurance company and they aren't or you are overlooking some aspects which any insurance company will normally pay for then getting them to cough up for it is not wrong. 

Getting this person's help in learning everything about the business is okay as long as you don't cross the fine line between what is ethically right and wrong. Again, different people have different set of beliefs about right and wrong and some are willing to push the limits and bend the rules to their benefit.


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## dougger222

Prior to 06 I never worked insurance claims and did mainly new roofs and 5 tear offs a year. In 06 when my own work ran out buddied up with my wifes cousins husband who was an estimater for a very large insurance restoration firm. He has worked for 3 of the top 5 insurance restoration firms in MN and they never went door to door instead all leads were spoon fed from within in the insurance industry. In 06 I subbed a ton of roofs through the company he worked for and got a little of taste of what he did. His company spoon fed him about a millon dollars in insurance restoration jobs per year and he added another million dollars in his own leads (word of mouth/friends/family). After a lot of drinks he would open up about what he knew. His motto was always, "Kill them with kindness" in regards to meeting with insurance adjusters.

By 07 stopped subbing from his company bought Xactimate and since then have done hundreds and hundreds of insurance jobs and by using Xactimate have added hundreds of thousands of dollars to the insurance settlements. It would be safe to say the average payout after I negotiate with the inside adjuster is substantial. For example one roof went from $9,600 to $15,500. Most often they are upped by $2-3K for an average 30sq roof. My time spent in negotiations is minumal, you just have to speak their language and it helps to use Xactimate as most carriers and independant adjusters use it.

Right now wrapping up on a hail claim for windows and roof. Adjuster wrote it for $36K they paid $74K within a grand of my bid. Another claim for windows, siding, and roof adjuster wrote it for $46K they paid $174K within a grand of my bid.

The biggest insurance carrier in my area which a lot of guys I know don't like working with typicaly pay my estimate within a few hundreds bucks. Two claims ago they actualy paid $8 more than my bid after review (up from $7,500 to $10,300). It's funny when the insured say they heard bad things about the carrier paying what they should.

As far as getting leads from insurance companies/adjusters/agents? Like others mentioned you can be part of a prefered vendor program which all the big carriers use. A guy I know met with one such vendor program and he needed an office with store front and he had to pay 20% of the claim to the program. A contractor in the program told him the vendor would try to get about 40% over going rate on all claims! The big downside is if you got a lead from the neighbor who had the same insurance as the house you were working on you had to hand over the lead. It was also said if you get a lead on your own from one of the insurance companies they do work for you also had to hand over those leads.

Right now I have 5 agents I get leads from. Most often it's stormers pounding on doors that provoke the insured to calling the agent. My rate on these leads is about 98%. Also from time to time have staff adjusters who call me in on claims to do work. A few years ago had a couple from a fairly big carrier who called me a lot! The rate on those leads were about 90%.

You may want to sit down and talk to the guy who does a lot of insurance work to pick his brain. Adding thousands to each claim and dealing with office adjusters sounds like he knows a few things. You also need to learn how to deal with adjusters on the roof too. I had it happen to me unbenounced by of all people my competition!!! At the time he didn't do exterior restoration/insurance work and not long after talking with me he was a storm chaser. Funny thing is after the all the hail work dried up in his little area he got really slow.


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## dougger222

Also, a good friend of mine is a 3 state storm chaser. Last year he had a big hail storm 30 minutes from his house and a giant windstorm 30 minutes to 1 hour from his house.

He goes door to door of course with cont. contracts in hand. He uses all local English speaking crews and does good quality work.


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## brennon87

dougger, 

thank you for that insight into the business. I have recently learned that many are doing the same in this area, and so I have set up a training course for me and one of my foreman to learn Xactimate. My hope is that we can supplement each claim and try to maximize the yield while only adding what is fair and honest to the claim. Any things that you notice are commonly left of residential roof claims? Your knowledge and input is quite helpful!! Thanks!


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## Grumpy

brennon87 said:


> dougger,
> 
> thank you for that insight into the business. I have recently learned that many are doing the same in this area, and so I have set up a training course for me and one of my foreman to learn Xactimate. My hope is that we can supplement each claim and try to maximize the yield while only adding what is fair and honest to the claim. Any things that you notice are commonly left of residential roof claims? Your knowledge and input is quite helpful!! Thanks!


Flashings.

Dumpsters.

Permits.


Those are the big 3 you never see from an insurance adjuster. Oh sure they say they'll square up after the job is done. Nuh uh. I want to know upfront that I am being paid, not argue about it after I spent the money. This is why I do things different than most contractors who have grown acustom to sucking the insurance teet. I give the customer a scope of work and a flat price, ya know the way thigns were done before people got addicted to the insurance money, and they sign the contract. Ultimately if the insurance doesn't pay them I don't care. I tell all my customers upfront to expect to pay $1,000-2,000 out of pocket above and beyond what the insurance company is offering if they want me to do the roof. This is not only because the insurance company leaves stuff off their estimate (which I will fight for IF the customer signs my contract and pays me a down payment) but also because insurance company pays for minimumc ode and my rofos exceed minimum code, someone has to pay the difference, and it aint gonna be me!

Ice shield in the valleys.

Ice shield pre flashing around the pipes, penetrations and walls.

fiberglass or 30# felt paper.

CertainTeed 5 star Sure Start 25 year workmanship warranty.


These are the things that exceed minimum code that by right the insurance company isn't responsible to pay for, but guess what I am not going to not install them. I don't install "minimum" roofs.

Let's also not forget ventilation improvements which insurance almost never wants to pay for, but < gasp > are not only code but required by the shingle manufacturers for a warranted roof system. I can honestly say most of the older houses never have proper ventilation.


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## dougger222

Good post Grumpy!

Other things left out quite often are high roof charge and steep charge. Some insurance companies pay for replacement of step flashing but what I write into my estimates is $2.50 a foot to loosen step flashing to allow ice and water shield to be installed underneath. Keep in mind if your actualy replacing step flashing you will need to either detach and reset or remove and replace the siding. It's funny how most carrier have no problem paying to replace step or dormer flashing but they are very hesitant to pay for any siding work as a direct result. Of course on a redeck you have to replace all flashing and deal with the siding. Also with a 5 Star warranty ALL flashing must be replaced. BTW, if a flashing detail has been known to cause leaks in the past we always replace the full detail.

As far as permits your right Grumpy, most adjusters leave it out of there "estimate" but will always pay on copy of receipt. I got a roof comming up were the adjuster paid $490 for a permit. Here's the best part... Pulled the permit and it was FREE!!! $35K asphalt roof on an indian reservation...

I've had a few adjusters pay to add roof vents and ridge vent. Used to add it into all my estimates (95% of the roofs I do get more venting) but after getting shot down 9 out of 10 times decided to leave it out. Some cities however I know I can get a letter from the building official requiring more venting, then they will always pay for it.

As far as Xactimate most use it in the industry with good results but a few don't like it and won't use it. One such person is a member of most roofing forums. There's only one other insurance estimate program that pays more for roofing and thats Simsol but only know one adjuster localy using it. You can also get a 1 month free trail version of Xactimate. The only problem is it's a training price list which you can modify most line item prices to reflect current monthly prices.

I know a couple guys out there doing mostly insurance work. They call out of pocket work retail work. I think it's sort of funny as they are sort of blinded by the real picture. BTW, my buddy who's a stormer isn't one of them. When I told him that he just laughed.


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## dreamhomes

*Adjusters*



vtroofing said:


> I'd rather go look at at used cars than meet adjusters, but again each his own.


Agreed - meeting with adjusters is time consuming and incredibly frustrating.


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## Dallas-Roofing

It is not unethical in the least bit to go back to the insurance company and request for more money for the homeowner for work that needs to be done. Remember you are on the homeowner's side to make sure that they are being treated fairly by your company as well as the insurance company. 

Devin Mahdi
DFW Roofers


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## MattAngelly

*Storm Chasers*

Storm Chasers are not to be trusted! An out of town roofing company in your neighborhood is there for one purpose, and that is to make as much money possible in as short of a time possible. I wouldn't believe a single thing this man tells you, he has ulterior motives. 

You can read all about Storm Chasers and why they should not be trusted here... http://www.solomoncontractingstl.com/solomon-contracting-tips/storm-chasers-how-to-spot-roofing

http://www.solomoncontractingstl.com


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## OldPro

You absolutely are leaving money on the table by not checking the insurance company's valuation for the job. Taking the time to check their estimates on a roofing job can lead to a large increase in your bottom line at the end of the year.


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## Severe Weather Roofing

These guys aren't always unethical. There are some really good folks in the industry.


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## hammerhead2

Anybody doing insurance work should use the same program as everyone else. It helps keep a level playing field and yes if your not familiar with were the money is than you wont be able to find it. Most times insurance companies will pay for things you wouldn't normally charge for. I think most companies doing insurance work are still using Exactimate. Oh and to answer your other question, yes it is illegal. Him and his affiliates will get caught, its just a matter of time and believe me the insurance companies will come down hard on all players. Stay true to yourself and always be ethical, honesty promotes longevity and that beats a quick buck every time.


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