# Who is doing metal roofing out there?



## Aaron (Sep 26, 2011)

What do you think of it?


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## Interloc (Apr 6, 2009)

i love it, better $ then shingle.


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## WindowsonWash (Nov 30, 2011)

Great stuff but it is a harder sell than asphalt if you aren't in front of the right customer.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

Like any other roofing it depends on the application. We have done our fair share of it on commercial buildings.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

We do alot with copper on very small projects like porches, gazebos, bays/bows. Great money! I've bid a few jobs where it was for full roof replacements, and it's just not my specialty. There are lots of materials from cheap manure to real top of the line stuff. There are metal shingles, metal panels, and varying degrees of quality for either. It really is a specialty unto its' self.


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## LCG (May 30, 2011)

*Metal Roofing*

I have never posted as I spend most of my time working but I do read the posts quite a bit. I am a full service roofing contractor. Commercial IB, residential asphalt, metal, etc. We install allot of metal during the course of a year weather it's a 4/12 36" fastener ranch style metal project to a 12/12 standing seam custom jobber. We also bend all of our own metal for our projects commercial and residential. Metal, as Grumpy said, is a skill of it's own. Very True. That is not to say it cannot be learned. Metal should NEVER be considered a waterproofing cover. It is not. Too many seams and screws, god forbid you have a valley. I have never been of the frame of mind that any shingle or metal roof covering was fully watertight. Like shingles you do the best you can to stave off the initial snow and ice push with proper installation, closers, pipe boots, and sealants. Other than that you had better cover you a$$ and do the prep and underlayment the hard way. NO SHORTCUTS. We repair numerous CAULK jobs on metal roofs every year. To be honest this is what we were doing this week. Fixing someone else's crap installed 2 years ago. We always try to up-sell the 12-16" 26ga standing seam concealed fastener system over the 36" 29ga fastened panel. The metal companies have spent millions convincing us that metal is a lifetime product. The 29ga ribbed fastener is only a 30 yr system "at best" They are a ton of maintenance due to screws popping and needing to seal seams. If they are not installed correctly you hire me to come fix the other guys stuff! 36" is a pain in the ass to cut as opposed to the 12-16" 26 standing seam panel. The 26ga standing seam is your 50yr "LIFETIME" roof. Easier installation, easy handling, easily screwed, and so on. Again no short cuts!!! On the final installation take the time to read the installation manual especially on the trim work. You want you project to look GREAT!!! Your customer just paid you 15k for 25-30 sq of ranch home that took 3 days to install. Another thing, Metal if done correctly takes longer to install than shingles, figure three times as long to start and you will narrow it down from there. It is far more technical so don't under estimate your skill set when bidding. It's a simple sell, just tell your customer that it take's a very customized set of skills to install metal roofing "correctly". Like commercial PVC. I had a guy tell me that my prices were too high. I told him if he wanted to buy the 7000.00 welder, hand welder, generators, screw guns, trucks, trailers, etc, to install it himself he could. Then he could buy the crap over the counter membrane, learn to install it, then call me back after the next rain so I could charge him full price (for my "skill set" and tools to do it again. I didn't hear back from him nor do I want too. He's just one of those customers. Don't want his money as it comes with problems. 

Your skill set and tools are worth MONEY. PERIOD! My profits on metal are similar to my high end PVC commercial systems so it is worth your while to invest some time and money into it. 

Sorry for the rant but I tried to give as much info as I could in one setting as most of my lessons were learned the hard way. I will be in front of the computer tomorrow (SNOW DAY) so if you have questions I will try to answer them as best I can. We do allot of Metal so feel free to fire away. Thanks for reading. Wade.


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## tinner666 (Oct 28, 2008)

"Metal should NEVER be considered a waterproofing cover. It is not. Too many seams and screws, god forbid you have a valley. I have never been of the frame of mind that any shingle or [COLOR=blue !important]metal roof[/COLOR] covering was fully watertight. Like shingles you do the best you can to stave off the initial snow and ice push with proper installation, closers, pipe boots, and sealants. Other than that you had better cover you a$$ and do the prep and underlayment the hard way."

Interesting viewpoint. I've been installing over wood without any underlay for 40+ years and no issues. I even posted some pix yesterday at roofing dot com showing one I did 20 years ago and tore off because my prior client wanted to switch to copper.


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## shazapple (Dec 3, 2010)

I know I'm nitpicking, and this applies more to a commercial setting, but there are hydrostatic metal roofs which are meant to be waterproof by using butyl tape and standing seam.


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## WindowsonWash (Nov 30, 2011)

LCG said:


> Metal should NEVER be considered a waterproofing cover. It is not. Too many seams and screws, god forbid you have a valley. I have never been of the frame of mind that any shingle or metal roof covering was fully watertight. Like shingles you do the best you can to stave off the initial snow and ice push with proper installation, closers, pipe boots, and sealants. Other than that you had better cover you a$$ and do the prep and underlayment the hard way. NO SHORTCUTS. We repair numerous CAULK jobs on metal roofs every year. . Thanks for reading. Wade.


Wade I would be the in same boat as tinner here and respectfully disagree.

Metal, when installed properly can be a near lifetime product and is far more proven than any other roofing material out there. Of course the finish is not lifetime but no finish is and metal can be re-coated quite readily and cost effectively.

The reliance on caulk/sealant on any metal roof should be minimal and I know that our valley and flashing could go without caulk/sealant and be more than serviceable and leak proof.

Yes, around vent boots and penetrations there are going to be maintenance requirements but they can be minimal as well.

Metal, when installed properly, can absolutely be a waterproofing cover with lifetime serviceability.


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## LCG (May 30, 2011)

I have never had an issue with moisture intrusion from any of my installations. But if your learning the metal trade it's better to learn it from ground up. Too many people think metal is waterproof and improperly install the product leading to allot of problems. I have repaired numerouse metal roofs less than 2 years old that were improperly installed. I cannot count the number of shingle roof jacks I have taken off of metal roof's. 

We just finished a smaller job in central wyoming. The roof had been installed over shingle's. The existing roof covering leaked to begin with. First red flag to do a full tear off. The pipe boots installed were for shingles instead of a rubber lead base boot. They had a low slope tie in over the kitchen. This should have NEVER been roofed over. A full tear off should have been done on the backside of the home and a full high temp ice guard should have been installed on the low slope area. I live in an area similar to Jackson Hole. We have a major amount of snow and ice build up and it is not be taken lightly! We had to remove the metal roof covering, tear off the shingle down to the existing roof deck, replace damaged roof sheathing, install a minimum of 6' I&W along the eves and synthetic underlayment to the remainder of the roof. Then we installed a 60mil IB PVC on the low slope over the kitchen and tied the upper portion of the metal into that. Funny how we finished it in the falling snow and for the first time since the roof had been installaed it didn't leak!

This is not a personal assault on anyone's workmanship other than the guy who does it the wrong way! Tinner I have seen your work online and it appears you do a very solid installation. What I am saying is most people shortcut Metal Roofing. They do not take the time to make it right. Can we install over a wood deck with zero underlayment and the roof not leak. Sure. Is it the right way to install a roof in an area that typacally see's 6' of snow on the roof a year. No it is not!

I stand on my installations and offer a lifetime warranty on our work. I cannot afford a call back. We have a very specific installation process that is stringently followed. This covers my tail more than anything. Most of my employee's have had roofing background before coming to me. All have been taught the incorect way of doing things. There are many way's to skin a cat but this one is mine! In my company its done my way or you will be gone. With that said our crews are very qualified and I tend to give them freedom to make the decisions in the feild. I do not micro manage my foreman because they are on board with the system. They know it works.

And yes we use butyl tape on all of our lapping seams, we stitch our seams every 12" and install the proper amount of screws to the feild to ensure the Wyoming 80MPH wind doesn't blow the panel into Nebraska.

The point is: On any roofing project you have to take into account every variable of installation. Wyoming see's every type of weather including 100+MPH micro burst winds, 10'+ of snow, monsoon rains in the spring, and glaring sun in the summer. I am of the frame of mind that if the underlayment doesnt leak, and my roof covering doesn't leak, then our ROOF SYSTEM will not leak. We installed a roof this year that recently had 90+mph winds hit the home. A peice of siding came off the wall and ripped of a patch of shingles then broke a window. It then proceeded to sleet for a day and a half. When the homeowner called I asked if the underlayment was still intact. He said it was, at which point I told him to relax it would be fine and we would repair it when the weather cleared. NO DAMAGE. This is why they hired us. Without properly installed underlayment I would have been replacing drywall on a new custom home. 

I am what you may call a paranoid roofer. Do not trust Wyoming to be gentle. If the elements don't get you the grizzly bear that ripped the door off my cabin will. 

NO SHORTCUTS.


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## 1985gt (Dec 21, 2010)

LCG said:


> And yes we use butyl tape on all of our lapping seams, we stitch our seams every 12" and install the proper amount of screws to the feild to ensure the Wyoming 80MPH wind doesn't blow the panel into Nebraska.


I've seen some of your panels laying over here! Just kidding. I agree and disagree, Metal is a water proof product. With that said, not everyone who installs it is as good as they should be. We how ever do install I&W shield and or felt on every project we do also. 

I tend to disagree on it taking longer then shingles. Standing seam goes very quickly once you have everything set up. I don't care for the R panels but we have installed them more then once.

I don't normally post photos but here are a couple I'm proud of. I got pulled out of the office last summer to do this job. Standing seam cor 10. For siding  These pictures were taken roughly 1 year after we completed the project. The panels were bought and I bend all of the trim. OF course the stainless steel clips and screws were also bought. It took me around 1 to 2 months to complete the entire project. We also did the flat roof before hand. I was working up until two days before the "show" off party. Cool thing was the builder let me and the family tour the house before the people moved in. It was different kind of house to say the least. Oh! the big portion of the house that has garage doors for windows. That is a indoor tennis court, something like 20-25' high ceilings The floor level there was 10' +/-. It was a really cool project to work on, so are most of the houses this builder does.


Sorry they are so big I tried to resize them. 









There is the same standing seam as soffit over this area.









The front entry, the standing seam had to continue on the same plane so it looked like it was going through the glass.









The standing seam was continued on the high roof level walls. There is also more on the back side.


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## Grumpy (Oct 29, 2008)

On a big roof if you know what you are doing metal panels take less time than shingles. Metal shingles, on the other hand, take longer than asphalt shingles. On a very small job, metal panels takes ALOT longer than shingles. 

Like I said our metal jobs are usually small, and architectural, and thus we are custom bending all the panels to fit the job. If you havea roll form machine, and open field, you can FLYY!


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## LCG (May 30, 2011)

*1985gt*

I agree on the actual time line for metal. The main question was about getting into metal so I didn't want to give false hope about install time. If someone is new to metal and really wants to do it right they should schedule accordingly. 

Those are some sweet photo's and a fun job to work on. I have been reading this blog for aboout 6 months now and really enjoy the discussion forum. I am a glutten for knowledge. I live eat and breath roofing as most of you do. 

We trian our employee's under a single system for any type of roof installation with the exception of commercial single ply. It is it's own animal and for a whole new discussion.

If you pound into an employee's head that the roof covering itself (shingle, Metal, Cedar, etc) is simply astetic than you take the focus away from the shingle or metal and into the prep, underlayment, flashing side of roofing. Make no bones about it. I am a bigger jerk when it comes to the finished product. I have made my guys tear off whole sections of roof to make it LOOK right!

By doing this I have been able to slow the production side of the installation and focus it on the quality side of the installation. The roof is perfect from the begining! A callback is $5000.00 minimum. Drywall, roofing, travel, etc. Not acceptable.

Now once the shingle or metal is going to be laid we have a very stringent policy on installation. Shingles will be laid with a minimum 5" offset. Valleys, flashing, chimneys, etc will be installed my way. PERIOD. There will be no variation from these procedures. They are proven methods. Metal Gable ends are be bent a specific way. I could go on and on.This kills new employee's who have done it the easy way for 15 years. Roofing is critical. I take the guess work out of it and after awhile the employee's start to see the quality of installation as well as ease of installation as every roof is done the same way. Also the roof arguments are down to almost nothing since if it's done anyway but mine, its wrong. We have created a signature look in our area. Every roof is tied in the same way. Its screams quality from the road. 

This stemmed from our company operating in two states fulltime. This was by accident more than anything. We were moving our operations from Utah to Wyoming and got hammered busy in both states. Trial by fire! I needed to be able to take someone from my Utah crew and insert them into my Wyoming crew in a seamless fashion and not spend time re-training the same employee. Believe me this was not an easy task. Some of my guys have their own ways of doing things! Thats why they are my top teir guy's. But quality reigns and I DO NOT run a democracy. Its good to be king.

I will try to shorten my responses. Thanks for reading and I look forward to participating in the future...


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## AndyWRS (Sep 12, 2010)

We like it, steel is 95% of what we do. Mostly stone coated products, but we do a fair amount of standing seam also.


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## tinner666 (Oct 28, 2008)

I use underlay to keep the rain and snow out until I get them on. I put no reliance on it for anything else though. I do have one I put on a few years ago that is relying on the felt. he HO put 300-400 holes in it shoveling snow off and I need to clean and solder them all shut. I've been saving that one until I get a break between jobs, but I think I'm just going to give up on getting a break and just schedule him in somehow. The repairs may cost as much as the roof did in 2000.


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## tinner666 (Oct 28, 2008)

I probably should have added that the few trainable peopel I've hired in the past we trained to roof as if felt and other underlay did not exist. No new methods were stressed, just the expertise that was needed in the 1700's which remains today.
No felt or caulk will ever replace those skills. Many of my current tools and equipment today date back to the 1800's.


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## Old School (Feb 17, 2012)

been doing standing seam for close to 30 years now. I was tought by my father, who was tought by his. 
if you can't seam a valley that will not leak with out felt, i&w or what ever, you should take the time to learn from someone who can.


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## seeyou (Jul 12, 2010)

tinner666 said:


> I probably should have added that the few trainable peopel I've hired in the past we trained to roof as if felt and other underlay did not exist. No new methods were stressed, just the expertise that was needed in the 1700's which remains today.
> No felt or caulk will ever replace those skills. Many of my current tools and equipment today date back to the 1800's.



+1 on that. But, I'm not afraid to use new tools. In my nearly 30 yrs at it, my methods have evolved, hopefully for the best.


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